Addiction and Christmas and problems.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I went to see BIL.  He's currently got a male nurse who seems really good at working BIL into doing things like drinking the damn thick water stuff instead of just bitching about it. 

L2 came while I was there.  The nurse needed to ask some private questions to BIL so we went into the family lounge and chatted there for a good 25 minutes.  Short version that doesn't break any confiding L2 did - BIL is more of a shitshow than I knew.  I didn't stay too long after that as my child care time was up and I still needed to do an errand.  So I said goodbye to BIL and left.  L2 went to get the social worker to work on his assorted FMLA paperwork.  He's behind in his submission but L2 and a friend D have been in touch with Admin so they're aware of why the paperwork isn't in.  My experience is that Admin will backdate everything once they do get the paperwork. 

[shanendoah]

Jan 3, 2020 15:35:35 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

I went to see BIL.  He's currently got a male nurse who seems really good at working BIL into doing things like drinking the damn thick water stuff instead of just bitching about it. 

L2 came while I was there.  The nurse needed to ask some private questions to BIL so we went into the family lounge and chatted there for a good 25 minutes.  Short version that doesn't break any confiding L2 did - BIL is more of a shitshow than I knew.  I didn't stay too long after that as my child care time was up and I still needed to do an errand.  So I said goodbye to BIL and left.  L2 went to get the social worker to work on his assorted FMLA paperwork.  He's behind in his submission but L2 and a friend D have been in touch with Admin so they're aware of why the paperwork isn't in.  My experience is that Admin will backdate everything once they do get the paperwork. 

If it helps to worry about one less thing, the law is the admin HAS to backdate everything. As soon as HR/Admin is told, or even recognizes there is the possibility of FMLA, everything has to be treated as FMLA until they are definitively told it's NOT FMLA. Doesn't matter how long the paperwork takes.

[Wisconsin Beth]

That's good to know Shane.  Thank you.  I wasn't worried, per se, but still...

[finnime]

I would think the hospital would discharge him to a rehab facility. He'll use up the 12 weeks of FMLA, maybe more. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

L2 has a vacation with her daughter and some business travel coming up.  So we're meeting her at BIL's house on Sunday to work out planning.  Plus the kids can have a longish romp with the ferret. 

I did give her a heads up on MIL and FIL not wanting to remove the booze from the house.  I figured she needed to know that.  She, um, wasn't happy, to put it mildly.  On the other hand, it's nice to have someone in real life see the dysfunction along with me.  DH thinks they should remove most of the booze but thinks it'd be ok to keep a beer or two hidden in the basement or something. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 4, 2020 12:31:03 GMT -5 finnime said:

I would think the hospital would discharge him to a rehab facility. He'll use up the 12 weeks of FMLA, maybe more. 

There's some screwup with his insurance.  The plan, assuming insurance co-operates, is 2 weeks in rehab to build up muscle tone, etc.  It's not 2 weeks of AA type rehab as I understand it.  Then he's going to MIL and FIL's house for an unknown period of time. 

[finnime]

Ouch. Double ouch to MIL and FIL resisting going dry for the duration. Those first weeks have got to be really hellish, and if he relies on his sop for coping,... Alcoholics can be obdurate regardless of consequences to anyone including themselves.

Good for L2 stepping away for a while.

Hoping for good to come of this somehow, for your family, Wisconsin Beth.

[laterbloomer]

"It's okay to keep a beer or two hidden in the basement or something."
It amazes me when someone can say something like that and not see how crazy it sounds. Tell him to say that sentance slowly and think about what he's saying

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jan 4, 2020 12:33:50 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

L2 has a vacation with her daughter and some business travel coming up.  So we're meeting her at BIL's house on Sunday to work out planning.  Plus the kids can have a longish romp with the ferret. 

I did give her a heads up on MIL and FIL not wanting to remove the booze from the house.  I figured she needed to know that.  She, um, wasn't happy, to put it mildly.  On the other hand, it's nice to have someone in real life see the dysfunction along with me.  DH thinks they should remove most of the booze but thinks it'd be ok to keep a beer or two hidden in the basement or something. 

Yeah and I thought it'd be OK to have the small handful of pain pills the dentist gave me when I had my wisdom teeth out several years ago.

Doesn't work that way.

[TheOtherMe]

Over 25 years after BIL stopped drinking, no alcohol is allowed in the house.  He says a recovering alcoholic is always a recovering alcoholic and why have the substance he is addicted to in the house?  

We shared a hotel room when DN2 graduated college.  DN1 and DN2 brought beer over after we went out to eat.  When they left, he made a point of telling them that all the beer had to go with them.  They already knew, but I was glad BIL points it out.  

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 4, 2020 12:46:58 GMT -5 finnime said:

Ouch. Double ouch to MIL and FIL resisting going dry for the duration. Those first weeks have got to be really hellish, and if he relies on his sop for coping,... Alcoholics can be obdurate regardless of consequences to anyone including themselves.

Good for L2 stepping away for a while.

Hoping for good to come of this somehow, for your family, Wisconsin Beth .

He's had 2 weeks of enforced sobriety and it sounds like his liver is responding to some kind of treatment.  So that's a bonus.  I'm hoping, probably foolishly, that between this 2+ weeks of hospitalization and the 2 weeks of rehab, he'll be over the worst of the cravings and this time he'll actually stick with sobriety. 

He's a stubborn asshole on a good day. 

[laterbloomer]

Do the inlaws have a plan for what they'll do when he relapses? (This won't be because they hid a couple of beers in the basement) But from everything you are sharing I think it's pretty much inevitable.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 4, 2020 13:08:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Do the inlaws have a plan for what they'll do when he relapses? (This won't be because they hid a couple of beers in the basement) But from everything you are sharing I think it's pretty much inevitable.

I don't think so.  L2 thinks the next relapse is going to kill him.  I'm not sure if it will be the next one but I expect him to die from alcohol at some point.  Dh does too. 

[Tennesseer]

Jan 4, 2020 12:33:50 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

L2 has a vacation with her daughter and some business travel coming up.  So we're meeting her at BIL's house on Sunday to work out planning.  Plus the kids can have a longish romp with the ferret. 

I did give her a heads up on MIL and FIL not wanting to remove the booze from the house.  I figured she needed to know that.  She, um, wasn't happy, to put it mildly.  On the other hand, it's nice to have someone in real life see the dysfunction along with me.  DH thinks they should remove most of the booze but thinks it'd be ok to keep a beer or two hidden in the basement or something. 

Alcoholics will search high and low through everything if they believe their might be even a drop of booze in the home.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 4, 2020 13:27:59 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jan 4, 2020 12:33:50 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

L2 has a vacation with her daughter and some business travel coming up.  So we're meeting her at BIL's house on Sunday to work out planning.  Plus the kids can have a longish romp with the ferret. 

I did give her a heads up on MIL and FIL not wanting to remove the booze from the house.  I figured she needed to know that.  She, um, wasn't happy, to put it mildly.  On the other hand, it's nice to have someone in real life see the dysfunction along with me.  DH thinks they should remove most of the booze but thinks it'd be ok to keep a beer or two hidden in the basement or something. 

Alcoholics will search high and low through everything if they believe their might be even a drop of booze in the home.

Yep.  This is BIL's parents.  He knows they like to drink and where they usually store their booze.  When he lived with them briefly in the last couple of years, MIL was frustrated about having to hide the snacks from him because he'd eat an entire bag of chips in 1 sitting.  I don't know how she thinks this can work. 

[Tennesseer]

Jan 4, 2020 13:33:19 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Jan 4, 2020 13:27:59 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Alcoholics will search high and low through everything if they believe their might be even a drop of booze in the home.

Yep.  This is BIL's parents.  He knows they like to drink and where they usually store their booze.  When he lived with them briefly in the last couple of years, MIL was frustrated about having to hide the snacks from him because he'd eat an entire bag of chips in 1 sitting.  I don't know how she thinks this can work. 

Also, what if the guy smells booze on his parents' breath. Are the parents going to live on a diet of Tic-Tacs?

[Wisconsin Beth]

 

[laterbloomer]

Jan 4, 2020 13:40:30 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

 

I hope you know everyone here is frustrated FOR you, not with you.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 4, 2020 17:47:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 4, 2020 13:40:30 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

 

I hope you know everyone here is frustrated FOR you, not with you.

Yeah, I know.  I appreciate the reassurance though. 

[bean29]

I used to obsess about this stuff with one of DH’s brothers. He is on the wagon, but I did not want to be the one to cause him to fall off. My SIL told me at one point not to worry, that he was around alcohol a lot. For awhile I thought when we have family parties that he was staying away from our bar area, but he does not-he hangs out with his brothers and other family.

It really is your BIL that has to work out all this stuff. You can try to control his behavior, but if he wants to drink, he will find a way. When my BIL was drinking DH and another brother were searching for him. They would walk in the front door of a bar, and BIL would run out the back door. DH realized what was going on, and that was the last time he tried to track down DB when he was on a binge.

Eta: it took many years, many relapses and going to jail, but he has not had a drink in probably 10 years and he seems very comfortable/at peace with it.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 4, 2020 13:35:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jan 4, 2020 13:33:19 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Yep.  This is BIL's parents.  He knows they like to drink and where they usually store their booze.  When he lived with them briefly in the last couple of years, MIL was frustrated about having to hide the snacks from him because he'd eat an entire bag of chips in 1 sitting.  I don't know how she thinks this can work. 

Also, what if the guy smells booze on his parents' breath. Are the parents going to live on a diet of Tic-Tacs?

I used your point Tenn, in the discussion at BIL's house with DH and L2. DH is now behind getting all the booze out of MIL and FIL's house. L2 had a talk with them.  She showed photos.  She said they are still reluctant.  I suggested siccing Pastor on them.  Maybe they will listen to him.  I think she's going to try that.  She seemed to like the suggestion at any rate. 

He's sort of being demoted at work.  He's a math teacher, high school level.  I think a lot of this move has to do with his absences the last couple of years, in all honesty.  He's been out a lot and that's not good for the kids.  L2 and BIL's friend D are painting this as a good thing to BIL, less stressful, less work.  He'll be monitoring the computer labs all day, whenever he goes back.  No change in salary.  I don't know that they could reduce his salary, City employment tends to be pretty straightforward in regards to salaries.  You have to work at it to move to a lower paying job, usually. 

DH and L2 went thru most of BIL's mail and figured out a plan of sorts to try to get on top of the priority bills - house, utilities and property taxes.  He didn't pay his water bill for like the last 18 months, so it's been added to his property tax bill (standard here, not sure about how other places do this) and he only made a couple of payments to his property taxes in 2018 and 2019.  Here, the City is pretty straightforward about lien-ing and foreclosing for outstanding property taxes after a couple years of non payment.  I'm not sure how it works with intermittent payments.  L2 keeps on him about the electric bill as he's had it turned off a couple of times last summer, she said.  I think the mortgage is an automatic deduction so it sounds like that's ok for now.  He's got about $15K on credit cards.  There's a legal issue that L2 is working on for him. 

He makes about $70K a year.  This is all doable on his salary, in this area.  He just likes to spend his money on fun stuff instead. L2 says he has a 15 minute attention span with the bills.  He's diagnosed with ADD but I don't know if he's taking any meds for it.  I know at one point his prescription had run out and he wasn't bothering to get it refilled. 

I don't understand why L2 wants to stay with him.  Esp. after our conversation the other day.  Sometimes love isn't enough reason to stay. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

It really is your BIL that has to work out all this stuff. You can try to control his behavior, but if he wants to drink, he will find a way

True but you don't have to enable either.   Like my MIL who would leave her pain pills all over the place and then claim she had no clue how DH was accessing them.  Really?  Really?

Yeah if he wants them bad enough he's going to find them but you don't leave a baggy of them in your purse knowing full well it will disappear.

Alcohol is especially hard because of the societal connotations to it.   There is no such thing as "social drinking" for an alcoholic and that is something people struggle to understand.   You can end up socially isolated which makes recovery even harder.   DH and I have a heck of a time finding people to socialize with because I don't care for alcohol and DH would like to avoid adding alcoholism to the list, people genuinely do not understand our stance on the subject. 

[TheOtherMe]

I don't understand why L2 wants to stay with him. Esp. after our conversation the other day. Sometimes love isn't enough reason to stay.

Is L2 doing Al Anon?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 6, 2020 8:39:41 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

It really is your BIL that has to work out all this stuff. You can try to control his behavior, but if he wants to drink, he will find a way

True but you don't have to enable either.   Like my MIL who would leave her pain pills all over the place and then claim she had no clue how DH was accessing them.  Really?  Really?

Yeah if he wants them bad enough he's going to find them but you don't leave a baggy of them in your purse knowing full well it will disappear.

Alcohol is especially hard because of the societal connotations to it.   There is no such thing as "social drinking" for an alcoholic and that is something people struggle to understand.   You can end up socially isolated which makes recovery even harder.   DH and I have a heck of a time finding people to socialize with because I don't care for alcohol and DH would like to avoid adding alcoholism to the list, people genuinely do not understand our stance on the subject. 

Yeah.  He will.  I can't make him do anything.  L2 was going on about how's he not strong enough mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc. to fight this on his own.  He's apparently about 10 years down the full blown alcoholic road so it's going to take time and patience for him to get used to his new normal of no alcohol.  And he doesn't have the coping skills to stay away from booze.  But we can't magically give him those skills.  We can't manage everything so that he stress free.  Having someone else manage everything for him is how he got to this point without having learned the coping skills to handle life. 

I guess I look at L2 and all she's doing for him and see "enabler and codependent" in 72 point bolded font. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

Jan 6, 2020 8:40:28 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I don't understand why L2 wants to stay with him. Esp. after our conversation the other day. Sometimes love isn't enough reason to stay.

Is L2 doing Al Anon?

I think so?  Or she was attending is AA (or whatever) meetings with him.  I've heard his meetings referred to as both AA and Al Anon by the family.  And his Dad was taking/going with him.  Then L2 was.  So I'm not sure who's attending what. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I found Narc-Anon to not be of much value to me.  There was A LOT of enabling/codependency and I am already past that stage.  It started to feed that monster so I stopped following.  DH said he was starting to feel the same way around the group therapy he's been going to lately.

The way the EAP therapist explained it to me is I can't control DH using, but if I bring pain pills into the house and choose to look the other way as they disappear then I'm enabling.  I have to be aware of the fact that since I am married to DH I am a part of the cycle whether I want to be or not.   It's a fine line to walk.

Your in-laws do not have to become tetotallers if they do not desire to become so.  It is their life and their house.  However if BIL is living with them and they are choosing to not understand how even a "little bit" of alcohol is not acceptable then they are enabling.

[swamp]

Jan 6, 2020 8:32:24 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Jan 4, 2020 13:35:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Also, what if the guy smells booze on his parents' breath. Are the parents going to live on a diet of Tic-Tacs?

I used your point Tenn, in the discussion at BIL's house with DH and L2. DH is now behind getting all the booze out of MIL and FIL's house. L2 had a talk with them.  She showed photos.  She said they are still reluctant.  I suggested siccing Pastor on them.  Maybe they will listen to him.  I think she's going to try that.  She seemed to like the suggestion at any rate. 

He's sort of being demoted at work.  He's a math teacher, high school level.  I think a lot of this move has to do with his absences the last couple of years, in all honesty.  He's been out a lot and that's not good for the kids.  L2 and BIL's friend D are painting this as a good thing to BIL, less stressful, less work.  He'll be monitoring the computer labs all day, whenever he goes back.  No change in salary.  I don't know that they could reduce his salary, City employment tends to be pretty straightforward in regards to salaries.  You have to work at it to move to a lower paying job, usually. 

DH and L2 went thru most of BIL's mail and figured out a plan of sorts to try to get on top of the priority bills - house, utilities and property taxes.  He didn't pay his water bill for like the last 18 months, so it's been added to his property tax bill (standard here, not sure about how other places do this) and he only made a couple of payments to his property taxes in 2018 and 2019.  Here, the City is pretty straightforward about lien-ing and foreclosing for outstanding property taxes after a couple years of non payment.  I'm not sure how it works with intermittent payments.  L2 keeps on him about the electric bill as he's had it turned off a couple of times last summer, she said.  I think the mortgage is an automatic deduction so it sounds like that's ok for now.  He's got about $15K on credit cards.  There's a legal issue that L2 is working on for him. 

He makes about $70K a year.  This is all doable on his salary, in this area.  He just likes to spend his money on fun stuff instead. L2 says he has a 15 minute attention span with the bills.  He's diagnosed with ADD but I don't know if he's taking any meds for it.  I know at one point his prescription had run out and he wasn't bothering to get it refilled. 

I don't understand why L2 wants to stay with him.  Esp. after our conversation the other day.  Sometimes love isn't enough reason to stay. 

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the guy is a grown up, and if he loses his house, that's his problem.    He's had plenty of time to straighten this out.    Maybe he needs some harsh consequences?  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jan 6, 2020 11:08:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 6, 2020 8:32:24 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

I used your point Tenn, in the discussion at BIL's house with DH and L2. DH is now behind getting all the booze out of MIL and FIL's house. L2 had a talk with them.  She showed photos.  She said they are still reluctant.  I suggested siccing Pastor on them.  Maybe they will listen to him.  I think she's going to try that.  She seemed to like the suggestion at any rate. 

He's sort of being demoted at work.  He's a math teacher, high school level.  I think a lot of this move has to do with his absences the last couple of years, in all honesty.  He's been out a lot and that's not good for the kids.  L2 and BIL's friend D are painting this as a good thing to BIL, less stressful, less work.  He'll be monitoring the computer labs all day, whenever he goes back.  No change in salary.  I don't know that they could reduce his salary, City employment tends to be pretty straightforward in regards to salaries.  You have to work at it to move to a lower paying job, usually. 

DH and L2 went thru most of BIL's mail and figured out a plan of sorts to try to get on top of the priority bills - house, utilities and property taxes.  He didn't pay his water bill for like the last 18 months, so it's been added to his property tax bill (standard here, not sure about how other places do this) and he only made a couple of payments to his property taxes in 2018 and 2019.  Here, the City is pretty straightforward about lien-ing and foreclosing for outstanding property taxes after a couple years of non payment.  I'm not sure how it works with intermittent payments.  L2 keeps on him about the electric bill as he's had it turned off a couple of times last summer, she said.  I think the mortgage is an automatic deduction so it sounds like that's ok for now.  He's got about $15K on credit cards.  There's a legal issue that L2 is working on for him. 

He makes about $70K a year.  This is all doable on his salary, in this area.  He just likes to spend his money on fun stuff instead. L2 says he has a 15 minute attention span with the bills.  He's diagnosed with ADD but I don't know if he's taking any meds for it.  I know at one point his prescription had run out and he wasn't bothering to get it refilled. 

I don't understand why L2 wants to stay with him.  Esp. after our conversation the other day.  Sometimes love isn't enough reason to stay. 

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the guy is a grown up, and if he loses his house, that's his problem.    He's had plenty of time to straighten this out.    Maybe he needs some harsh consequences?  

This is where I have struggled because I am intertwined with DH.   They can't hit rock bottom if you are there to provide a cushion.

[laterbloomer]

Jan 6, 2020 8:32:24 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Jan 4, 2020 13:35:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Also, what if the guy smells booze on his parents' breath. Are the parents going to live on a diet of Tic-Tacs?

I used your point Tenn, in the discussion at BIL's house with DH and L2. DH is now behind getting all the booze out of MIL and FIL's house. L2 had a talk with them.  She showed photos.  She said they are still reluctant.  I suggested siccing Pastor on them.  Maybe they will listen to him.  I think she's going to try that.  She seemed to like the suggestion at any rate. 

He's sort of being demoted at work.  He's a math teacher, high school level.  I think a lot of this move has to do with his absences the last couple of years, in all honesty.  He's been out a lot and that's not good for the kids.  L2 and BIL's friend D are painting this as a good thing to BIL, less stressful, less work.  He'll be monitoring the computer labs all day, whenever he goes back.  No change in salary.  I don't know that they could reduce his salary, City employment tends to be pretty straightforward in regards to salaries.  You have to work at it to move to a lower paying job, usually. 

DH and L2 went thru most of BIL's mail and figured out a plan of sorts to try to get on top of the priority bills - house, utilities and property taxes.  He didn't pay his water bill for like the last 18 months, so it's been added to his property tax bill (standard here, not sure about how other places do this) and he only made a couple of payments to his property taxes in 2018 and 2019.  Here, the City is pretty straightforward about lien-ing and foreclosing for outstanding property taxes after a couple years of non payment.  I'm not sure how it works with intermittent payments.  L2 keeps on him about the electric bill as he's had it turned off a couple of times last summer, she said.  I think the mortgage is an automatic deduction so it sounds like that's ok for now.  He's got about $15K on credit cards.  There's a legal issue that L2 is working on for him. 

He makes about $70K a year.  This is all doable on his salary, in this area.  He just likes to spend his money on fun stuff instead. L2 says he has a 15 minute attention span with the bills.  He's diagnosed with ADD but I don't know if he's taking any meds for it.  I know at one point his prescription had run out and he wasn't bothering to get it refilled. 

I don't understand why L2 wants to stay with him.  Esp. after our conversation the other day.  Sometimes love isn't enough reason to stay. 

That's just not an option. Well it wouldn't be without his enablers. Why would he change when other people are taking away all the consequences of his choices?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

He's diagnosed with ADD but I don't know if he's taking any meds for it

Addicts don't have an attention span further out than their next fix.   You can diagnose them and hand them other meds all you want but until you take care of the addiction issue you're putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.

I suggest you read the book Never Enough.   It's by a former addict turned neuroscientist.   It came out in 2019.   I  wish it had been available when we first started this journey because it has helped with putting so many puzzle pieces into place.   It would have changed completely how we've handled things.