Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 6, 2020 11:32:53 GMT -5
I used your point Tenn, in the discussion at BIL's house with DH and L2. DH is now behind getting all the booze out of MIL and FIL's house. L2 had a talk with them. She showed photos. She said they are still reluctant. I suggested siccing Pastor on them. Maybe they will listen to him. I think she's going to try that. She seemed to like the suggestion at any rate.
He's sort of being demoted at work. He's a math teacher, high school level. I think a lot of this move has to do with his absences the last couple of years, in all honesty. He's been out a lot and that's not good for the kids. L2 and BIL's friend D are painting this as a good thing to BIL, less stressful, less work. He'll be monitoring the computer labs all day, whenever he goes back. No change in salary. I don't know that they could reduce his salary, City employment tends to be pretty straightforward in regards to salaries. You have to work at it to move to a lower paying job, usually.
DH and L2 went thru most of BIL's mail and figured out a plan of sorts to try to get on top of the priority bills - house, utilities and property taxes. He didn't pay his water bill for like the last 18 months, so it's been added to his property tax bill (standard here, not sure about how other places do this) and he only made a couple of payments to his property taxes in 2018 and 2019. Here, the City is pretty straightforward about lien-ing and foreclosing for outstanding property taxes after a couple years of non payment. I'm not sure how it works with intermittent payments. L2 keeps on him about the electric bill as he's had it turned off a couple of times last summer, she said. I think the mortgage is an automatic deduction so it sounds like that's ok for now. He's got about $15K on credit cards. There's a legal issue that L2 is working on for him.
He makes about $70K a year. This is all doable on his salary, in this area. He just likes to spend his money on fun stuff instead. L2 says he has a 15 minute attention span with the bills. He's diagnosed with ADD but I don't know if he's taking any meds for it. I know at one point his prescription had run out and he wasn't bothering to get it refilled.
I don't understand why L2 wants to stay with him. Esp. after our conversation the other day. Sometimes love isn't enough reason to stay.
Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the guy is a grown up, and if he loses his house, that's his problem. He's had plenty of time to straighten this out. Maybe he needs some harsh consequences? No, I get it. It never would have occurred to me (or DH) to go deal with his mail and bills. The property taxes are public record and I've peeked at them over the last couple of years but that's nosiness and watching a trainwreck. I told DH but neither of us reached out to him.
MIL expects us to call to 'remind' him of parties and dates and whatnot. I flat out told her a couple of years ago that I wasn't going to. That he was an adult and if he missed the kid's bday party, oh well.
L1, the exwife, and I both expected him to lose the house to non payment of either the taxes or the mortgage. L2 is just delaying the inevitable, in my opinion.
ETA - it may have occurred to me to deal with his fridge and/or to tell DH to take a look for biohazards. We're over there a few times a week to handle the ferret so it wouldn't have even been another trip. I've been trying to make DH deal with the ferret and BIL's house. I got roped into going over yesterday since L2 asked me to come and said the kids could play with the ferret.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 6, 2020 11:37:05 GMT -5
He's diagnosed with ADD but I don't know if he's taking any meds for itAddicts don't have an attention span further out than their next fix. You can diagnose them and hand them other meds all you want but until you take care of the addiction issue you're putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. I suggest you read the book Never Enough. It's by a former addict turned neuroscientist. It came out in 2019. I wish it had been available when we first started this journey because it has helped with putting so many puzzle pieces into place. It would have changed completely how we've handled things. L2 is using the 'being on a ship' comparison. Alcoholism is his normal, dry land. Sobriety is being at sea, with swells and waves and trying to get your sea-legs. And since he's got 10 years of hard drinking behind him, it's 10 months or so of trying to get his sea-legs while his brain rewires itself.
I'll look up the book.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jan 6, 2020 17:09:25 GMT -5
It really is your BIL that has to work out all this stuff. You can try to control his behavior, but if he wants to drink, he will find a wayTrue but you don't have to enable either. Like my MIL who would leave her pain pills all over the place and then claim she had no clue how DH was accessing them. Really? Really? Yeah if he wants them bad enough he's going to find them but you don't leave a baggy of them in your purse knowing full well it will disappear.  Alcohol is especially hard because of the societal connotations to it. There is no such thing as "social drinking" for an alcoholic and that is something people struggle to understand. You can end up socially isolated which makes recovery even harder. DH and I have a heck of a time finding people to socialize with because I don't care for alcohol and DH would like to avoid adding alcoholism to the list, people genuinely do not understand our stance on the subject. At home, when we have a party, we usually put all the prescriptions in a locked room. We pretty much lock all the bedrooms and my office. We don't lock up the Alcohol though. I went to put my soda in my work refrigerator and there is quite a lot of beer in it. No one is keeping track. We also have a fridge in the basement with beer in it, and we also have hard liquor stored in another area where the Alcoholics know it is. I made it known that I did not like where it was stored, b/c it is an area where my Department has stuff stored so I kind of felt like I was back door responsible for it. The Company Ownership team just kind of shrugged their shoulders.
You go to the grocery store, filling station, drug store etc, they sell liquor. You go to a restaurant, they serve liquor. It is very easy to shift the responsibility for saying no from the Alcoholic to some other co-dependent person, but that is an impossible promise to keep. How is entertaining at home any different than entertaining in a restaurant?
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jan 6, 2020 17:13:59 GMT -5
Beth,
Regarding payment of back taxes - once the taxes are a certain amount past due, the responsibility for collection shifts from the city to the county. The county pays the city/municipality the taxes owed and then tries to collect/foreclose. I think you can be 3 years delinquent, so you always want to pay the oldest year's back taxes not the most recent.
Check this web site for BIL's name:
county.milwaukee.gov/EN/Treasurer/Delinquent-Property-Taxes
You don't necessarily have to pay all back taxes, and if you or DH calls and talks to the county, they will probably give you helpful information.
Good luck.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 7, 2020 7:25:03 GMT -5
Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the guy is a grown up, and if he loses his house, that's his problem. He's had plenty of time to straighten this out. Maybe he needs some harsh consequences? But BIL is already dealing with harsh consequences... If the guy doesn't really care all that much about dying, he won't care if he loses his house. Or his family. Or L2. |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 8:33:55 GMT -5
Insurance denied the PT/rehab stay. He's probably being released today, possible tomorrow. Even though he still has swallowing issues and is on a restricted diet of soft foods, mechanically smushed. I'm not sure if he's still on suicide watch or now. So basically, he's going to his parents house, he's going to eat or drink something he shouldn't, choke, and end up back in the hospital, probably by the end of the week.
He doesn't want to stay in the hospital. He doesn't really want to do PT or rehab. He doesn't want a nursing assistance/aid to help him at home. He just wants to go home.
ETA - MIL isn't feeling so good again. Sounds kind of like a cold. |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 8:35:48 GMT -5
Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the guy is a grown up, and if he loses his house, that's his problem. He's had plenty of time to straighten this out. Maybe he needs some harsh consequences? But BIL is already dealing with harsh consequences... If the guy doesn't really care all that much about dying, he won't care if he loses his house. Or his family. Or L2.
I'm not sure he realizes just how close to dying he came. L2 was journaling everything and taking pictures so at some point he'll find out. She leaves for a vacation with her daughter sometime this week. |
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jan 7, 2020 8:43:30 GMT -5
Insurance companies suck. I'm sorry
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Jan 7, 2020 9:07:59 GMT -5
Oh, no! Denying the rehab--seems inevitable that it will lead to a readmission almost immediately. That really sucks. And if he's still suicidal, it may be deadly, sooner or later. But since he wants to go home he won't appeal, I assume. That is so harsh.
My mother died from drinking. In the end there was nothing we, who loved her, could do to stop it. I miss her terribly still.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 7, 2020 9:35:22 GMT -5
Insurance denied the PT/rehab stay. He's probably being released today, possible tomorrow. Even though he still has swallowing issues and is on a restricted diet of soft foods, mechanically smushed. I'm not sure if he's still on suicide watch or now. So basically, he's going to his parents house, he's going to eat or drink something he shouldn't, choke, and end up back in the hospital, probably by the end of the week.
He doesn't want to stay in the hospital. He doesn't really want to do PT or rehab. He doesn't want a nursing assistance/aid to help him at home. He just wants to go home.
ETA - MIL isn't feeling so good again. Sounds kind of like a cold. You can't save someone from themselves. If having the grim reaper standing over your shoulder wasn't enough to convince him then I'm not sure what rock bottom for him is. Some addicts never reach it. You're all going to have to try to make peace with the fact you've done whatever you can and disengage. |
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jan 7, 2020 9:38:24 GMT -5
Insurance denied the PT/rehab stay. He's probably being released today, possible tomorrow. Even though he still has swallowing issues and is on a restricted diet of soft foods, mechanically smushed. I'm not sure if he's still on suicide watch or now. So basically, he's going to his parents house, he's going to eat or drink something he shouldn't, choke, and end up back in the hospital, probably by the end of the week.
He doesn't want to stay in the hospital. He doesn't really want to do PT or rehab. He doesn't want a nursing assistance/aid to help him at home. He just wants to go home.
ETA - MIL isn't feeling so good again. Sounds kind of like a cold. You can't save someone from themselves. If having the grim reaper standing over your shoulder wasn't enough to convince him then I'm not sure what rock bottom for him is. Some addicts never reach it. You're all going to have to try to make peace with the fact you've done whatever you can and disengage. It's a damn hard thing to accept. Necessary but hard to accept that you can't force someone into recovery if they don't want it. We want to think we can change things and if we could just do a, b and c then it would work. It doesn't work like that though. |
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 7, 2020 9:41:33 GMT -5
You can't save someone from themselves. If having the grim reaper standing over your shoulder wasn't enough to convince him then I'm not sure what rock bottom for him is. Some addicts never reach it. You're all going to have to try to make peace with the fact you've done whatever you can and disengage. It's a damn hard thing to accept. Necessary but hard to accept that you can't force someone into recovery if they don't want it. We want to think we can change things and if we could just do a, b and c then it would work. It doesn't work like that though. Nope. I finally accepted that with DH. While I don't think he's going to kill himself with his addiction I've given up on the idea that he will grow up and be an equal partner in our marriage. I am trying to decide what my deal breakers are. Our marriage doesn't totally suck but it's not and never will be what I expected a marriage to look like. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 9:51:51 GMT -5
it's not and never will be what I expected a marriage to look like.  |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 10:05:01 GMT -5
Hugs Drama. Lots of hugs and appreciation to you and your posts. Everyone's posts really.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 7, 2020 10:24:46 GMT -5
Beth, whose his medical POA? Maybe the "best" thing to do is have some frank discussions about the level of medical interventions that can/should be pursued before the next time hits... |
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 7, 2020 10:27:37 GMT -5
Our marriage doesn't totally suck but it's not and never will be what I expected a marriage to look like. Amen. I actually said that to DH last week Friday. |
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 7, 2020 10:40:53 GMT -5
Maybe I'm being too harsh, but the guy is a grown up, and if he loses his house, that's his problem. He's had plenty of time to straighten this out. Maybe he needs some harsh consequences? But BIL is already dealing with harsh consequences... If the guy doesn't really care all that much about dying, he won't care if he loses his house. Or his family. Or L2. He is now dealing with them, but everyone is scrambling around to make it better for him so the full effect doesn't happen. I'm not feeling bad for him. |
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 7, 2020 10:47:00 GMT -5
Amen. I actually said that to DH last week Friday. I flat out asked DH not too long ago if he married me because he loves me or because he found an easy mark. He was horrified I said that but come on, really? You can't see how your actions make me consider that possibility? Sorry this thread isn't about me. Anyhoo I agree with Swamp that everyone needs to stop running around to make things better for him post hospital. L2 needs to recognize he is an adult with a "sound mind" as far as the law goes and that he can make his own decisions regarding bills and his recovery. If he wants to let things implode let them. She needs to stop focusing on him and start protecting herself. |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 10:54:58 GMT -5
Beth, whose his medical POA? Maybe the "best" thing to do is have some frank discussions about the level of medical interventions that can/should be pursued before the next time hits... I don't think he has one, officially. It's been agreed by us (L2, DH, me) that MIL and/or FIL should been the ones making decisions while BIL couldn't but I think at where he is now, it's back to him. And he knows he can't be forced to stay if he doesn't want to, unless he's a danger to himself or others. If he's still on suicide watch, we could make the argument that he should be held for another 72 hours. |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 10:56:59 GMT -5
Amen. I actually said that to DH last week Friday. I flat out asked DH not too long ago if he married me because he loves me or because he found an easy mark. He was horrified I said that but come on, really? You can't see how your actions make me consider that possibility? Sorry this thread isn't about me.Anyhoo I agree with Swamp that everyone needs to stop running around to make things better for him post hospital. L2 needs to recognize he is an adult with a "sound mind" as far as the law goes and that he can make his own decisions regarding bills and his recovery. If he wants to let things implode let them. She needs to stop focusing on him and start protecting herself. I think it's winding down on BIL, to be honest. He's getting out, he's not going to get better and there's nothing I can do about it. All I can do is cushion my kids' emotions when he dies. Because I think that's inevitable. |
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Jan 7, 2020 11:01:39 GMT -5
I flat out asked DH not too long ago if he married me because he loves me or because he found an easy mark. He was horrified I said that but come on, really? You can't see how your actions make me consider that possibility? Sorry this thread isn't about me.Anyhoo I agree with Swamp that everyone needs to stop running around to make things better for him post hospital. L2 needs to recognize he is an adult with a "sound mind" as far as the law goes and that he can make his own decisions regarding bills and his recovery. If he wants to let things implode let them. She needs to stop focusing on him and start protecting herself. I think it's winding down on BIL, to be honest. He's getting out, he's not going to get better and there's nothing I can do about it. All I can do is cushion my kids' emotions when he dies. Because I think that's inevitable. That is what my family learned with my mother. It's incredibly hard to deal with, because you think that it can't be true, that the person would prefer to die than give up the poison and live with your love. But for a determined alcoholic it is true. |
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 7, 2020 11:15:33 GMT -5
But BIL is already dealing with harsh consequences... If the guy doesn't really care all that much about dying, he won't care if he loses his house. Or his family. Or L2. He is now dealing with them, but everyone is scrambling around to make it better for him so the full effect doesn't happen. I'm not feeling bad for him. I'm not feeling bad for the dude either. The dude doesn't care about anything. I'm betting even feeling the full effect of being homeless wouldn't do anything.
I say this as a wife of an addict and as a mom who has been watching her oldest kid dig a very, very large hole for himself at school.
If you just don't care, you just don't care. Consequences aren't effective, because they don't matter.
Which is why I suggested that perhaps the best thing to do is get his medical POA stuff taken care of.
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anciana
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Post by anciana on Jan 7, 2020 11:16:36 GMT -5
Hi Beth, came by to wish you a happy New Year and just seeing how stressful this holiday season has been for you and your family. Sorry about all the heartache! Hugs  |
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 7, 2020 11:46:17 GMT -5
I think it's winding down on BIL, to be honest. He's getting out, he's not going to get better and there's nothing I can do about it. All I can do is cushion my kids' emotions when he dies. Because I think that's inevitable. That is what my family learned with my mother. It's incredibly hard to deal with, because you think that it can't be true, that the person would prefer to die than give up the poison and live with your love. But for a determined alcoholic it is true. One of the fascinating things I read in Never Enough is that after an extended period of time, and it's different between drugs and people. is you aren't even getting high/drunk anymore. Continuing to abuse the substance is to keep yourself in homeostasis. If you're taking something to get high your body produces the stuff to make you not high to counter act it. Eventually your body does what it does best and equalizes. To a non-addict you are messed up, the addict feels "normal". To take the substance away the body crashes and has to relearn how to establish equilibrium. The process can take YEARS and even then the person is never exactly as they would have been had they not abused drugs. That's why people can end up dying from the shock of withdraw. That's why a lot of people cannot make it that far and relapse. |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 12:00:12 GMT -5
That is what my family learned with my mother. It's incredibly hard to deal with, because you think that it can't be true, that the person would prefer to die than give up the poison and live with your love. But for a determined alcoholic it is true. One of the fascinating things I read in Never Enough is that after an extended period of time, and it's different between drugs and people. is you aren't even getting high/drunk anymore. Continuing to abuse the substance is to keep yourself in homeostasis. If you're taking something to get high your body produces the stuff to make you not high to counter act it. Eventually your body does what it does best and equalizes. To a non-addict you are messed up, the addict feels "normal". To take the substance away the body crashes and has to relearn how to establish equilibrium. The process can take YEARS and even then the person is never exactly as they would have been had they not abused drugs. That's why people can end up dying from the shock of withdraw. That's why a lot of people cannot make it that far and relapse. Yeah, that ties in with some of the stuff that L2 has said. |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 12:00:46 GMT -5
Hi Beth, came by to wish you a happy New Year and just seeing how stressful this holiday season has been for you and your family. Sorry about all the heartache! Hugs Thanks Anciana. |
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 7, 2020 12:06:51 GMT -5
One of the fascinating things I read in Never Enough is that after an extended period of time, and it's different between drugs and people. is you aren't even getting high/drunk anymore. Continuing to abuse the substance is to keep yourself in homeostasis. If you're taking something to get high your body produces the stuff to make you not high to counter act it. Eventually your body does what it does best and equalizes. To a non-addict you are messed up, the addict feels "normal". To take the substance away the body crashes and has to relearn how to establish equilibrium. The process can take YEARS and even then the person is never exactly as they would have been had they not abused drugs. That's why people can end up dying from the shock of withdraw. That's why a lot of people cannot make it that far and relapse. Yeah, that ties in with some of the stuff that L2 has said. Here's another thing. Studies show that quite a few people who take drugs and even abuse them go on to get off them just fine. Some people chose not to. Yes it is a mental issue and yes there is a dependency issue but many many people make the choice to get over the withdraw hump and begin to lead normal lives. Your BIL ain't one of them. If nearly dying wasn't enough to motivate him there isn't anything. That's his choice to make. L2 needs to start preparing herself for that. It's going to be awful and hard but it's time to protect herself before he drags her any further down with him. |
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 7, 2020 12:48:19 GMT -5
Yeah, that ties in with some of the stuff that L2 has said. Here's another thing. Studies show that quite a few people who take drugs and even abuse them go on to get off them just fine. Some people chose not to. Yes it is a mental issue and yes there is a dependency issue but many many people make the choice to get over the withdraw hump and begin to lead normal lives. Your BIL ain't one of them. If nearly dying wasn't enough to motivate him there isn't anything. That's his choice to make. L2 needs to start preparing herself for that. It's going to be awful and hard but it's time to protect herself before he drags her any further down with him. I think she's afraid to break up with him right now because he'll go straight back to drinking and she'll feel responsible for his death. She's on vacation with her daughter starting today. I hope the time apart helps her figure things out. |
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jan 7, 2020 13:01:10 GMT -5
Here's another thing. Studies show that quite a few people who take drugs and even abuse them go on to get off them just fine. Some people chose not to. Yes it is a mental issue and yes there is a dependency issue but many many people make the choice to get over the withdraw hump and begin to lead normal lives. Your BIL ain't one of them. If nearly dying wasn't enough to motivate him there isn't anything. That's his choice to make. L2 needs to start preparing herself for that. It's going to be awful and hard but it's time to protect herself before he drags her any further down with him. I think she's afraid to break up with him right now because he'll go straight back to drinking and she'll feel responsible for his death. She's on vacation with her daughter starting today. I hope the time apart helps her figure things out. He's going right back to drinking no matter what happens. Her responsibility is to take care of her daughter and herself. |
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 7, 2020 13:33:42 GMT -5
On the Medical POA front, if he does not have a Medical POA form signed, notarized, etc, then it does not matter what he or the rest of you decide if he becomes unable to make medical decisions for himself again. There is a very clear "chain of command" so to speak in legal terms. For adults, it goes like this:
Spouse
Adult Children
Legal Parents (as in bio or adoptive. step-parents don't have a say, doesn't matter if a step-parent raised the person and bio-parent had nothing to do with them)
Siblings
Families do not get to skip over and choose for themselves who the decision-maker is. If there is more than one person in the decision-maker category, then all of those people in the category have to agree/sign-off on any decision/procedure before it can happen. FYI, this is why my brother has Medical POA for our mother. He lives in her house and is there and best able to make any quick decisions that need to be made without having to wait for doctors to get ahold of me and have me sign off on it, as well.
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