Aging Parent Support Thread

[NastyWoman]

deminmaine there are a few questions that need to be considered. Like how much is Sister saving you all by taking care of your mom, and how much is she giving up to do so? Note that the latter part should include at least some consideration of her not being able to spend time with her family. Does she and her significant other (since you mentioned the need to be a two-income family there has to be at least one other person involved) need to outsource some of the work at home?

Now if what she is saving you is ($x) > than the value of what she is giving up ($y), I believe it would be fair to give her at least $y plus some or all of the delta between $x and $y. If $y > $x, you should between all of you try to make her whole.

Note that Sisiter should be part of the discussion as she may not want to be made fully whole ("I am doing this for mom") or maybe being made whole is the max she will accept.

Of  course I don't know the financal situation of any member of your family but that would be what I would advocate with my siblings

[hoops902]

Sept 5, 2019 15:18:50 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Hi all- it's has been a busy few weeks, and I am afraid we have had a negative change in our Mom's world.  

Long story short- I went over a couple of weeks ago to see her in the morning, and she was in acute and severe pain.  I called EMS and off she went to ER.  turns out, it apparently was her long simmering aortic aneurism, and it did not look good.  SOMEHOW, by late day she stabilized, with the aorta much further enlarged, and not seeking heroic treatment which would either kill or severely mutilate her, she went home for respite care.  Within a day it was apparent that she may live for some time like this (or not)  

We get Hospice home care involved, great people, and we get good pain meds to handle continual pain.  Sister, who has been up helping with Mom for summer anyway, quits weekend job to stay with Mom.  Time goes by, we change home around a bit as needed, like hospital bed.  Mom is a bit bleery and easily agitated from the drugs, but largely pain free and mostly quite lucid.  Doctors all agree it is a matter of time, and even vascular surgeon says surgery on a frail 88 yo woman with this huge an aorta would be nuts.  

Sister has been getting a $200.00/ wk stipend from Mom for most of summer for staying with her during most of the week each week. (open secret) Now however, sister has quit weekend job, is overstaying (she was planning to go back to FL when school started, or at least labor day) and here she is.  Mom is paying her $200.00/ wk.  

Here is the question- what is fair and appropriate for this type of thing?  My sis is not wealthy by any means, and they need the two income family.  Mom (I think) thinks she is giving plenty, and Sis won't ask.  I haven't talked to other brother yet, but this subject must be broached.

Sis is saving everyone a ton of money, not to mention the invaluable human kindness of a very stressful spot she is putting herself in.  I am expecting a delicate convo, first with my to get siblings on one page, and then with Mom.  If she balks then we should step up and make it right.  ( I eventually am the executor, we can square that then if needed)  But to get off square one, what is about the right, fair, decent pay?

Thank you all!

My view on this is typically "whatever they'd be making at the job they would be going to otherwise".  I think that balances the "she's family, I'm supposed to do this" aspect with the "I'm doing this because we're family, but I can't go into financial troubles to do this" aspect.  That's at least generally how my family approaches monetary things like this "I'm not trying to MAKE money off you, but I can't necessarily afford/want to LOSE money doing something for you" when it comes to rather large things like this.  

As an example, when my father was in poor health, my brother had to take a few days off of work here and there to give my mom a break from 24-hour care.  He didn't get paid by his employer for them (no PTO accrued, or not enough accrued, and not much given to begin with) so my mom gave him the money he missed out on.  She offered me the same (at my pay rate) but I declined (I had PTO, and missing a few days even without won't hurt us financially like it would my brother).  

My brother also rents a house from my mother.  He pays "rent" equal to the taxes and insurance.  It's a version of "don't want to make money, but can't afford to just lose money" theory (ignoring that yes, lost potential income or opportunity cost is real).

That generally works for us because I think it balances the "I want to do something nice for you" side while not absorbing a full financial hit.  In your case, it means that sister is probably working harder/more stressed being a personal caregiver than a regular job would be...so it's not like she's profiting if she receives her normal pay...but it also won't hurt her financially to do something so kind.

[hoops902]

Sept 5, 2019 15:56:44 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Sept 5, 2019 15:36:07 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

My view on this is typically "whatever they'd be making at the job they would be going to otherwise".  I think that balances the "she's family, I'm supposed to do this" aspect with the "I'm doing this because we're family, but I can't go into financial troubles to do this" aspect.  That's at least generally how my family approaches monetary things like this "I'm not trying to MAKE money off you, but I can't necessarily afford/want to LOSE money doing something for you" when it comes to rather large things like this.  

As an example, when my father was in poor health, my brother had to take a few days off of work here and there to give my mom a break from 24-hour care.  He didn't get paid by his employer for them (no PTO accrued, or not enough accrued, and not much given to begin with) so my mom gave him the money he missed out on.  She offered me the same (at my pay rate) but I declined (I had PTO, and missing a few days even without won't hurt us financially like it would my brother).  

My brother also rents a house from my mother.  He pays "rent" equal to the taxes and insurance.  It's a version of "don't want to make money, but can't afford to just lose money" theory (ignoring that yes, lost potential income or opportunity cost is real).

That generally works for us because I think it balances the "I want to do something nice for you" side while not absorbing a full financial hit.  In your case, it means that sister is probably working harder/more stressed being a personal caregiver than a regular job would be...so it's not like she's profiting if she receives her normal pay...but it also won't hurt her financially to do something so kind.

I agree fully, no reason for her to take a hit.  My other concern is what if what she normally makes is less than what the job SHOULD pay?  
Gotta run to a meeting now, no rest for the wicked, appreciate the replies!  

Obviously what works for you may be different, but in our family, it doesn't matter what the job SHOULD pay necessarily.  The difference between what the job should pay (for a qualified person to do that job) and what they ARE getting paid...is the person's contribution for being part of the family.  It's their "goodwill" contribution to the situation.  That's typically how we convince people to take money for what they're doing, without making them feel like they're profiting off of someone in the family's need for help.  

Some of my thoughts on that might change if it was a situation of "My new job is to take care of mom" as opposed to "I'm just helping out here and there where I can".  Along with my change in attitude toward pay (higher), my expectations would probably change as well (higher also).  I've never been in a situation where anything was more than temporary help though.  It was never a career/job change involving family.  To me, the longer a situation is expected to be, maybe the more the pay should approach "what the job should pay" levels.  To me that's maybe the transition from "doing a favor" to "doing a job".  I'll go run a new electrical outlet for my buddy for free.  If he wants me to run all the electrical in his house (ignoring the obvious license issues) then I'm gonna charge him for it...that's not a favor, that's a full on job.

[NastyWoman]

So I had a random thought about deminmaine 's situation: since you don't know how long your mom will need Sister's assistance, consider (between you and your siblings) whether you can fly her home for a week or so every once in a while (no idea on frequency) to spend time with her DH and DD. If you have it available you could use FF miles to pay for this or just split the cost between all of you. She may much prefer this over being made 100% whole financially though I am not saying that she should have to give up 2/3rd of her income of course...

[finnime]

I think it will be a real relief to your sister, deminmaine, both the change in reimbursement and the occasional reprieve by going home for a week. I agree with the above, too, that the amount should be the greater of the 40-hour work week she is providing care for and the earnings from her regular job. Your mom may feel differently about the amounts -- I assume she was raised during the depression -- but it is right for you and your brother to make up the difference. Then you can settle out from the final settling of her estate, whenever that happens.

You are fortunate that your sister is willing to do this work. And you're a good brother and son, too.

[countrygirl2]

Find out what it would cost to have an agency do it, you would be shocked I think.  $200 a week is dirt cheap no matter what she could make elsewhere, this is a tough job.  I think if possible for 7 days a week, away from her family, not fair? at least $400, I mean this is 24/7.  I'm guessing and Aid would be $18 to $20 an hour or more. But if this is what you guys can afford, well, it is what it is.
I'm trying to remember what we had to pay a sitter to stay with MIL in an assisted living place on top of the other.  I think it was $80 or $100 a night, sorry I just can't remember, been a few years ago.

As far as care, I told hubs when we moved back, I would do what I could to help with his mom.  At this time she was in her home, take her to the store, beautician, pay her bills, etc but I would not care for her in our home.  To me that was the line in the sand.  Mom was with us off and on in the summers for years and did stay almost a year, and he finally told me that was enough.  And I agreed, it was killing me.  So we made that agreement before we came back.  I still pay all the bills etc, buy  her clothing, though now she has her hair done there.  I need to visit more often then I do, I will run over.  But our situation is quite different from yours as we are doing fine with this situation.  Initially it was difficult till we got it all settled. And as she declines, she will move to either a nursing home, or alzheimers unit under Medicaid.

Sounds like this lady would end up in a nursing home if not for the sister and with her illness likely not going to go on for years.  If its working for you guys that's great, but you are getting a super bargain, just realize that.

[countrygirl2]

Yeah, but you need to write checks and keep records so they can be presented to the court since you are executor.

[busymom]

I'm just going to add my two cents here.  deminmaine, what if your Mom hangs in there for years, instead of weeks or months?  (That's what my Mom did, when doctors were telling us she was at death's door.)  Have a contingency plan in case your own Mom keeps going, like the Energizer bunny.  You don't want your Sister, and her family, to get burnt out.  Best wishes to your family!  I know too well this is a tough road.

[Works4me]

That's what my father did too - he spent almost 4 years with a 3 to 6 month life expectancy due to heart failure, COPD and a few other conditions.

The hardest part for me was thinking it was short term but it wasn't. The standing joke was that no one told him he was supposed to die - gallows humor helped.

[countrygirl2]

Yes, my MIL is 92 and I would bet she will make it to 100.  We have had a small raise in insurance premiums and the assisted living fee.  So far we are covering it, but I have moments of panic that the costs will take a huge surge.  She gets $2500 a month and assisted living and insurance costs is $2300 plus ensure and drug deductible.  We pay for clothes and shoes, undies at times.  Her only extra is the back pay we got from VA for the year it took for her to get approved.  We don't have much left for an increase and you know over the next 10 years it will raise.  It's not that I mind paying but there are 3 of us that will likely need our assets for care in the future.  I think DD will be taken care of at least as it is currently but things could change.  It's tough to make that money last.

[TheOtherMe]

Sept 10, 2019 19:12:14 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Sept 9, 2019 19:31:24 GMT -5 busymom said:

  

Small piece of good news today.  The nurse's aid came over today and Mom did let her help her bathe.  This is something she had heretofore refused to do (and her hygiene has suffered for it)  And I get it.  It is humiliating to have to have help bathing. But she did it finally, and it went well.  She will find it easier next week.  

Mom didn't have any issues with an aide bathing her.

I didn't either have my surgery 20 years ago or when I was hospitalized 4 times in a few months almost 3 years ago.  

I would have been in big trouble 20 years ago if I had not let the aide bathe me as I was hospitalized for 28 days and very sick for about 25 of those days.

It didn't bother me to have a male aide bathe me either.  

I hope it gets easier for your mother.  It feels good to be clean.

[empress of self-improvement]

Excuse me a moment while j be jealous of those who can have an aide help bathe their loved one. I don't have that luxury. Ok, we don't have an aide, YET, but he is the biggest pain in my ass, and back, about bathing. It's a win if I can get him in once a week. He gets all depressed because he can't do it by himself anymore. Bah. I might just start speeayimng him with Lysol. That should help. Or Febreeze!

[TheOtherMe]

Sept 11, 2019 15:43:30 GMT -5 empress of self-improvement said:

Excuse me a moment while j be jealous of those who can have an aide help bathe their loved one. I don't have that luxury. Ok, we don't have an aide, YET, but he is the biggest pain in my ass, and back, about bathing. It's a win if I can get him in once a week. He gets all depressed because he can't do it by himself anymore. Bah. I might just start speeayimng him with Lysol. That should help. Or Febreeze!

I'm sorry.  I wish you could have a bathing aide for your hubby.

[Anne_in_VA]

I just checked and there is a lift chair on Facebook for $300.

[countrygirl2]

Can he get anything through medicare?  I don't think you are that old? But I believe there is help by aids.  I know this sounds awful, but if you got a divorce, he could get Medicaid and get more help through Medicaid.  Not sure might have to spend down half he would get, might check into that as it doesn't sound like you are going to be able to care for him on your own for much longer.

[buystoys]

If she leaves, countrygirl2, she has to be careful about the abandonment clauses in her state. 

link

[NoNamePerson]

Sept 11, 2019 15:43:30 GMT -5 empress of self-improvement said:

Excuse me a moment while j be jealous of those who can have an aide help bathe their loved one. I don't have that luxury. Ok, we don't have an aide, YET, but he is the biggest pain in my ass, and back, about bathing. It's a win if I can get him in once a week. He gets all depressed because he can't do it by himself anymore. Bah. I might just start speeayimng him with Lysol. That should help. Or Febreeze!

You have such a wicked sense of humor and I think that is what keeps you sane!!!!  I hope you know that some of us wish there was some way we could help but only able to admire you from afar. 

[countrygirl2]

Do they really do that, I mean the abandonment thing?  Wow!


I just know how tiring it gets.  I'm not to the point of having to take care of DD like that.  But when it happens,  or if it happens, I'm getting some help through Medicaid or she will have to go to a home or nursing home.  I'm just getting to old. I do get tired and aggravated believe me.  but then just tuck it in and keep going. But I remember it isn't the girls fault.  If she ends up with a colostomy I don't think I can handle that too, just to much, to old, with everything else.

[jerseygirl]

Country girl I was able to get my disabled sister onto ZMedicaid. Her doctor agreed to sign paper that stated she was eligible for nursing home. But NJ now has a Medicaid program that allows person to stay at home and pay caregivers (even family caregivers). She is eligible for about $45000 of care a year.
I’m older than her and in better health but can’t bathe her, dress her etc so it’s a huge help
She has need developmently disabled all her life. Until the past 2 years she was able to travel with me, but no more
She lives in condo in next town. She wants to live in hr own home and I’m also happy truthfully to not have her living with me and husband
Still a lot of work for me paying bills, organizing home aids etc

[Ava]

My mother is leaving for the airport in a couple of hours.
The last couple of days are the worst.
It's tough to adjust to her being here, but then it's hard when she leaves. We are both tearing up and I can't wait till my friends pick her up. She's very nervous right now.

A couple of days ago she asked me to start the process for her to become a permanent resident. I've already checked the form and the instructions online and I could easily do it. She's retired and has a good pension. My concern is how would health coverage work for someone in her seventies. She won't have Medicare because she never contributed to it, but at the same time she won't be eligible for ACA due to age. I don't know. If someone has any information or can give me a link to any useful website I would appreciate it.

Even though there were days I felt the loss of privacy and some times we argue quite a bit, it was great to have her around. She's getting older and I have to appreciate every moment we get to enjoy together.

[countrygirl2]

All I know is sons wife is a citizen and he had insurance for her, afterall they were married!  And yet he still had to sigh forms saying he would be responsible for any care and costs for her for 5 years.  So I think that might be true for you too, but I do not know for sure.  Just saying our experience.


Ok. back out to work on window sash and throwing more junk out of the garage.

[NastyWoman]

Sept 15, 2019 9:51:43 GMT -5 Ava said:

My mother is leaving for the airport in a couple of hours.
The last couple of days are the worst.
It's tough to adjust to her being here, but then it's hard when she leaves. We are both tearing up and I can't wait till my friends pick her up. She's very nervous right now.

A couple of days ago she asked me to start the process for her to become a permanent resident. I've already checked the form and the instructions online and I could easily do it. She's retired and has a good pension. My concern is how would health coverage work for someone in her seventies. She won't have Medicare because she never contributed to it, but at the same time she won't be eligible for ACA due to age. I don't know. If someone has any information or can give me a link to any useful website I would appreciate it.

Even though there were days I felt the loss of privacy and some times we argue quite a bit, it was great to have her around. She's getting older and I have to appreciate every moment we get to enjoy together.

In your case it may be even more difficult than what CG described for her son. You may become financially responsible for you mom for the rest of her life.

www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/financial-responsibility-sponsor-permanent-resident.html

Only you know whether you can you afford to do this?

[TheOtherMe]

DN1 and his wife are considering this with her parents.  They have not yet made a decision and the financial responsibility obligation is the reason and health care.

[Ava]

My mother has a good pension. The issue would be healthcare.
She doesn't plan to stay here year round, but if she gets a green card she wants to stay here longer than 3 or 4 months at a time.

So I'm not worried about having to support her, my main issue is access to healthcare while she's here. She would still keep all her doctors back home, but she needs coverage in case of an emergency.

[countrygirl2]

With the way it is now under this administration I bet you would have to sign papers saying you would pay and probably her too as she could skip out any time she wants.  I would see that being the one problem.  So say she got really sick and run up a $100k hospital bill, could you pay it?  Happens quicker then you think..

And people her age, mine too, could have a stroke or something where she could not get back home and end up in a nursing home.  Then what?  Health care here is a huge issue for sure.0

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2019 20:05:10 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

With the way it is now under this administration I bet you would have to sign papers saying you would pay and probably her too as she could skip out any time she wants.  I would see that being the one problem.  So say she got really sick and run up a $100k hospital bill, could you pay it?  Happens quicker then you think..

And people her age, mine too, could have a stroke or something where she could not get back home and end up in a nursing home.  Then what?  Health care here is a huge issue for sure.0

It really happens more quickly than you can imagine. DH just spent 4 days in the hospital for internal bleeding. They billed $61,000.

[Works4me]

Define good pension - nursing homes start at about $200 per day for custodial care. That is the type of care she would require if she was unable to recover and return home with you - $6000 per month. Plus acute hospital charges, dictors, tests, etc.

The main problem is, most often, older people are fine until they aren't. It tends to be very sudden and most likely without time for your mother to return home for medical needs.

Totally unfamiliar with private insurance - is it offered for older people not covered by Medicare? If so is affordable? What does she do on her visits here?

[countrygirl2]

Honestly, I don't think its practical financial wise,  unless you are able to foot the possible huge bills or as she ages inevitable bills.


You know mom and I were very careful, she signed herself into anyplace herself to make sure we didn't get billed for her care. One time hubs started to sign, I said no.  Have told him the same about his mom.


And now even with Medicaid which she could not get, they are talking about going after homes, family, etc for the money.  Individuals I'm not  positive about yet and varies from state to state.


Not saying don't do it, just making you aware and hope you can afford the possible thousands and thousands for medical care


I think this will be DIL's moms last trip to the US to visit, she is getting old too.  I am sure DIL has never nor has a clue about her becoming ill.

[Annie7]

Sept 15, 2019 9:51:43 GMT -5 Ava said:

A couple of days ago she asked me to start the process for her to become a permanent resident. I've already checked the form and the instructions online and I could easily do it. She's retired and has a good pension. My concern is how would health coverage work for someone in her seventies. She won't have Medicare because she never contributed to it, but at the same time she won't be eligible for ACA due to age. I don't know. If someone has any information or can give me a link to any useful website I would appreciate it.

In some states she could be eligible for Medicaid based on her age once she has her green card. In other states she would need to carry her own insurance which could get expensive. I just went thru the process for my mom. In my state only citizens are eligible for Medicaid. She had been in relatively good health so just got her catastrophic insurance which was like $200 a month. I had to do this for 5 years until she got her citizenship and got Medicaid.

Also, remember that if your mother wants to get citizenship, she cannot be outside of US for more than 6 months at a time. So she will be spending a lot more time with you.

[TheOtherMe]

Sept 17, 2019 11:55:34 GMT -5 Annie7 said:

Also, remember that if your mother wants to get citizenship, she cannot be outside of US for more than 6 months at a time. So she will be spending a lot more time with you.

This is the other big issue for DN1 and his wife.  MIL has two children in the US (one a citizen now and the other with a green card).  MIL's mother is still living and they don't feel they can totally abandon her.  Plus FIL still works--on a ship and he is at sea 6 months at a time.

They also like to vacation when he is not at sea.