Bãsïs fór "Birther" Claims

[billisonboard]

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Additionally, there could be another serious complication for Obama's Constitutional eligibility to serve as President of The United States-- and that is his father.

Congress affirmed in 1790 that a person born abroad whose parents are both citizens of the U.S. is, in fact, a U.S. citizen.

It would appear that the “next best” definition originates from an 1874 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of Minor v. Happersett 88 U.S. 162 (1874). The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that if an individual is born in the United States and both parents are U.S. citizens at the time of birth, that individual is, in fact, a natural born citizen. That same Supreme Court decision also addressed the issue of a person born in the United States where one of the parents is not a U.S. citizen at the time of the birth of the child. The ruling noted that in such a case, the child’s natural born citizenship status is “in doubt.”

In any event, subsequent rulings by Congress and enacted by federal statute affirm that children born abroad by parents who are both U.S. citizens are not only U.S. citizens themselves, but are recognized as “natural born citizens.”

On the other hand, individuals born in the United States or elsewhere by one or more parents who are not U.S. citizens are not likely to be eligible to hold the office of President of the United States absent of federal statute affirming their eligibility.

In other words- Obama could eventually produce an authentic long form birth certificate and STILL be ineligible to serve.

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2011 9:52:59 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Additionally, there could be another serious complication for Obama's Constitutional eligibility to serve as President of The United States-- and that is his father.

Congress affirmed in 1790 that a person born abroad whose parents are both citizens of the U.S. is, in fact, a U.S. citizen.

It would appear that the “next best” definition originates from an 1874 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of Minor v. Happersett 88 U.S. 162 (1874). The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that if an individual is born in the United States and both parents are U.S. citizens at the time of birth, that individual is, in fact, a natural born citizen. That same Supreme Court decision also addressed the issue of a person born in the United States where one of the parents is not a U.S. citizen at the time of the birth of the child. The ruling noted that in such a case, the child’s natural born citizenship status is “in doubt.”

In any event, subsequent rulings by Congress and enacted by federal statute affirm that children born abroad by parents who are both U.S. citizens are not only U.S. citizens themselves, but are recognized as “natural born citizens.”

On the other hand, individuals born in the United States or elsewhere by one or more parents who are not U.S. citizens are not likely to be eligible to hold the office of President of the United States absent of federal statute affirming their eligibility.

In other words- Obama could eventually produce an authentic long form birth certificate and STILL be ineligible to serve.

You missed one very important ruling made concerning the issue of eligibility. On November 4th, 2008 "We the People of the United States" decided the issue.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Also, interestingly enough...During the 2008 campaign, a lawsuit was filed petitioning the removal of Presidential candidate John McCAIN from the ballot. Ironically, the suit stemmed from the questions over McCAIN’s constitutional eligibility as his natural-born status was in doubt. To put to rest any doubt, McCAIN responded by providing an authenticated copy of his long form birth certificate to the Federal Elections Commission (FEC) and Congress. Despite the early rumblings of controversy over OBAMA’s origins, OBAMA did not.

Although McCain provided his long form birth certificate and took proactive measures to ensure his eligibility to hold office, many political and media pundits remained unsatisfied. Before the term “birther” became synonymous with racist conspiracy theorist, an article published on 28 February, 2008 in The New York Times titled McCain’s Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out questioned McCAIN’s eligibility.

On that same day, Senator Claire McCASKILL, a Missouri democrat introduced a bill titled Children of Military Families Natural Born Citizen Act. Oddly, the bill was co-sponsored by both Senators Barack Hussein OBAMA II and Hillary Rodham CLINTON, both who were running against McCAIN at the time the bill was introduced. Despite the specificity of its title, the bill (SB 2678) was an attempt to change the legal definition of a natural born citizen as referenced by Article II, Section I, clause V of the U.S. Constitution, a move that by default, would arguably and preemptively take away any constitutional challenges against the eligibility of Barack Hussein OBAMA II.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 11, 2011 9:56:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 11, 2011 9:52:59 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Additionally, there could be another serious complication for Obama's Constitutional eligibility to serve as President of The United States-- and that is his father.

Congress affirmed in 1790 that a person born abroad whose parents are both citizens of the U.S. is, in fact, a U.S. citizen.

It would appear that the “next best” definition originates from an 1874 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of Minor v. Happersett 88 U.S. 162 (1874). The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that if an individual is born in the United States and both parents are U.S. citizens at the time of birth, that individual is, in fact, a natural born citizen. That same Supreme Court decision also addressed the issue of a person born in the United States where one of the parents is not a U.S. citizen at the time of the birth of the child. The ruling noted that in such a case, the child’s natural born citizenship status is “in doubt.”

In any event, subsequent rulings by Congress and enacted by federal statute affirm that children born abroad by parents who are both U.S. citizens are not only U.S. citizens themselves, but are recognized as “natural born citizens.”

On the other hand, individuals born in the United States or elsewhere by one or more parents who are not U.S. citizens are not likely to be eligible to hold the office of President of the United States absent of federal statute affirming their eligibility.

In other words- Obama could eventually produce an authentic long form birth certificate and STILL be ineligible to serve.

You missed one very important ruling made concerning the issue of eligibility. On November 4th, 2008 "We the People of the United States" decided the issue.

False. We The People have to date not yet determined for certain the eligibility of his excellency Barracka Hussein Abu Oumama to serve as President.

If he is not eligible, voters where provided only ONE eligible candidate, and the results of the 2008 election would be voided.

No doubt it will be messy-- which is why I think that there are rumblings of Obama not seeking a second term.

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2011 10:00:14 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 11, 2011 9:56:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

You missed one very important ruling made concerning the issue of eligibility. On November 4th, 2008 "We the People of the United States" decided the issue.

False. We The People have to date not yet determined for certain the eligibility of his excellency Barracka Hussein Abu Oumama to serve as President.

...

Yes we did.

[Mkitty is pro kitty]

Apr 11, 2011 9:44:41 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Word on the street is that rather than have people find out that his excellency Baracka Hussein Abu Oumama is President Obama on his birth certificate, and never legally changed his name back

Wow, that's an interesting "word" that's obviously on Sour Grapes Street.

Here's the word on my street:



Sorry it's not as interesting.

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2011 10:00:14 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 11, 2011 9:56:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

You missed one very important ruling made concerning the issue of eligibility. On November 4th, 2008 "We the People of the United States" decided the issue.

...

If he is not eligible, voters where provided only ONE eligible candidate, and the results of the 2008 election would be voided.

...

My ballot in my home state had a multitude of choices.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

One eligible candidate got a majority of the votes vs. the other eligible candidates. Anyway- my point stands. We The People don't have the legal ability to vote for an ineligible candidate. If found ineligible, Barrack Obama is gone along with every bill he signed into law, and every executive order, legal decision, and on and on. It'll take awhile to clean up the mess and I think he will more than likely do what is being bandied about now and simply not seek a second term.

[Tennesseer]

Apr 11, 2011 9:44:41 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Word on the street is ...

Never believe the word heard on dead-end streets.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

We'll see. I think it will be very telling if Obama didn't run again. No matter where you stand on the issue, how would you interpret a decision by Obama not to run?

[Deleted]

Paul... did you miss the announcement where Obama said he IS running?

[Opti]

Apr 11, 2011 10:11:21 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

We'll see. I think it will be very telling if Obama didn't run again. No matter where you stand on the issue, how would you interpret a decision by Obama not to run?

That he didn't think he could win or he didn't want to win. ( Sorry, it would imply absolutely nothing to me about birth certificate stuff.)

[billisonboard]

Apr 11, 2011 10:08:59 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

One eligible candidate got a majority of the votes vs. the other eligible candidates. Anyway- my point stands. We The People don't have the legal ability to vote for an ineligible candidate. ...

I agree that the American people could not elect someone who is clearly not eligible (Arnold Schwarzenegger comes to mind). If we are talking about a situation in which it is "in doubt:, I would prefer that the decision be made by the American people instead of a government bureaucrat.

[MN-Investor]

On that same day, Senator Claire McCASKILL, a Missouri democrat introduced a bill titled Children of Military Families Natural Born Citizen Act. Oddly, the bill was co-sponsored by both Senators Barack Hussein OBAMA II and Hillary Rodham CLINTON, both who were running against McCAIN at the time the bill was introduced. Despite the specificity of its title, the bill (SB 2678) was an attempt to change the legal definition of a natural born citizen as referenced by Article II, Section I, clause V of the U.S. Constitution, a move that by default, would arguably and preemptively take away any constitutional challenges against the eligibility of Barack Hussein OBAMA II.

When it's so simple to look something up on the internet, why do people ignore original sources and instead perpetuate misinformation???

See www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s110-2678. That shows the complete bill. And I quote:

===================================

S 2678 IS

110th CONGRESS

2d Session

S. 2678

To clarify the law and ensure that children born to United States citizens while serving overseas in the military are eligible to become President.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

February 28, 2008

Mrs. MCCASKILL introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

A BILL

To clarify the law and ensure that children born to United States citizens while serving overseas in the military are eligible to become President.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Children of Military Families Natural Born Citizen Act'.

SEC. 2. DEFINITION OF `NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'.

Congress finds and declares that the term `natural born Citizen' in article II, section 1, clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States shall include: `Any person born to any citizen of the United States while serving in the active or reserve components of the United States Armed Forces'.

===============================================

Now how on earth does that impact President Obama's eligibility no matter where or to whom you think he was born?

[henryclay]

The Constitution of any entity, whether a local social club or a nation will contain some things that certain members would prefer not be there. But all must recognize that in order to accept the provisions more to their liking, it is necessary to also accept some things that may not be readily at the top of the pile. Such is the provision for eligibility to be president. Even the most liberal of minds must understand the rationale for the words used in the eligibilty provisions. Plainly they were intended that, while the population at large mixes and morphs over time, the intent was to keep the genealogy at the presidential level pure.

There is a recent study available on the entire subject. I'm just guessing, but my suspicious guess is that Donald Trump has read it. It is 37 pages and contains much of what has been discussed here and in other settings, including the opinions of one of the people who chose the wording;Thomas Jefferson. The displays on FactCheck are discussed, as well as rather than making it a campaign centerpiece, why use a website that is only reached by a small portion of the public? The study delves further into that and asks "who is FactCheck", and "why ONLY FacfCheck" for the display,

Thomas Jefferson, 1823,
On every question of construction, carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it conform to the probable one in which it was passed.

When writing the Constitution, the Founding Fathers used the definition of natural born provided by Vattel's Law of Nations, Part I, Chapter 19, Section 212, The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

Further definition of natural born is found in an article published on The Federalist Blog and is reproduced here:

Natural-Born Citizen Defined: One universal point most all early publicists agreed on was natural-born citizen must mean one who is a citizen by no act of law. If a person owes their citizenship to some act of law (naturalization for example), they cannot be considered a natural-born citizen. This leads us to defining natural-born citizen under the laws of nature - laws the founders recognized and embraced.
Under the laws of nature, every child born requires no act of law to establish the fact the child inherits through nature his/her father’s citizenship as well as his name (or even his property) through birth. This law of nature is also recognized by law of nations. Sen. Howard said the citizenship clause under the Fourteenth Amendment was by virtue of “natural law and national law.”
The advantages of Natural Law is competing allegiances between nations are not claimed, or at least with those nations whose custom is to not make citizens of other countries citizens without their consent. Any alternations or conflicts due to a child’s natural citizenship are strictly a creature of local municipal law. In the year 1866, the United States for the first time adopted a local municipal law under Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised Statutes that read: “All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens of the United States.”
Rep. John A. Bingham commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))

Bingham had asserted the same thing in 1862 as well:

Does the gentleman mean that any person, born within the limits of the Republic, and who has offended against no law, can rightfully be exiled from any State or from any rood of the Republic? Does the gentleman undertake to say that here, in the face of the provision in the Constitution, that persons born within the limits of the Republic, of parents who are not the subjects of any other sovereignty, are native-born citizens, whether they be black or white? There is not a textbook referred to in any court which does not recognise the principle that I assert. (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 407 (1862))

Bingham subscribed to the same view as most everyone in Congress at the time that in order to be born a citizen of the United States one must be born within the allegiance of the Nation. Bingham had explained years earlier that to be born within the allegiance of the United States the parents, or more precisely, the father, must not owe allegiance to some other foreign sovereignty (remember the U.S. abandoned England’s “natural allegiance” doctrine). This of course, explains why emphasis of not owing allegiance to anyone else was the affect of being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

www.learn-usa.com/of_assistance/A_Question_of_Eligibility_-_2nd_Ed.pdf

[henryclay]

Good Gosh! Has the Daily Kos lost its way, , , , , or are they bailing out on Obama, too?

www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/11/965855/-Obama%E2%80%99s-Eligibility:-The-Big-Con

[billisonboard]

Apr 12, 2011 13:24:07 GMT -5 henryclay said:

Good Gosh! Has the Daily Kos lost its way, , , , , or are they bailing out on Obama, too?

www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/11/965855/-Obama%E2%80%99s-Eligibility:-The-Big-Con

The Daily Kos Community Site allows people to post things. An individual named WeatherPermitting copied and pasted an article from canadafreepress.com. The only thing it says about the Daily Kos is that they allow different points of view to be posted on their site. Pretty cool.

[henryclay]

The Donald is on to some things others have only guessed at.

Trump is correct, President Obama, AKA Obama is hiding something in his past that is very bad… and it may not be his citizenship. (Trump would not say this if he did not know something and he has the money to get the dirt…)

As an IRS tax examiner,one of many former federal jobs, I have seen what it appears President Obama has done, mostly by illegal aliens attempting to acquire a new identity in the U.S and/or criminals looking to acquire a new ID.

Barry, AKA Obama, was lawfully adopted by a foreign national, Lolo , and Barry’s name was legally changed to “President Obama”. (Barry’s own admission) President Obama was also made an official legal Indonesian citizen. (again Barry’s own admission) The adoption would be noted in Barry’s vital statistics record in Hawaii on his original birth certificate…

OR Lolo may have always been Barry’s legal birth farther. The public does not know for sure at this point who Barry’s father really was and Barry himself may not know.

Barry was raised as a Muslim in Indonesia and attended a Catholic funded school that permitted all faiths to attend.

Barry’s mother dropped him as a dependent for some reason, maybe even when Barry was adopted by Lolo . His mother’s passport records dropped Barry as a dependent indicating Barry was no longer a legal dependent of his mothers. (The passport records of his mother have been produced showing Barry was no longer a dependent when Barry was permanently residing in Indonesia.) Barry went to Hawaii to live with his alleged grand parents after Lolo and Barry’s mother divorced.

A “certificate of live birth” can have names changed on it including a child’s birth name, and birth parent’s names. Even a modified date of birth can be on a “certificate of live birth”. This occurs frequently for adopted children where the birth parent does not want the child to know who they are. The public has no idea who Barry’s real birth father is or who Barry’s real birth mother is. (Barry could have been adopted by his mother) The original birth certificate is the only legal vital statistics record of a person’s birth parents, birth location, birth date, etc… I can get a “certificate of live birth” for a dead person; I cannot get a birth certificate of a dead person without “Deceased” on it. (I’ve tried.

There's a lot of it, but you can read it here, or you can google: TRUMP UNCOVERS TRUTH ABOUT OBAMA/AKA-(President Obama)OBAMA IS NOT HIS REAL NAME. HE'S A FRAUD

randysright.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/randys-right-alert-trump-uncovers-truth-about-obama/

[Opti]

Henry, I hope you and Paul are getting paid for posting this nonsense.
Obama's mother didn't meet his step dad until Obama was one year old
so how could he even be Obama's father?

From Wikipedia:
In 1962, , then a civilian employee of the Indonesian Army, obtained an East-West Center 21-month grant from September 1962 to June 1964 for graduate study in geography at the University of Hawaii at Manoa.[7] He arrived in Honolulu in September 1962, the month that four of the East-West Center's first six buildings opened—the other two buildings, Jefferson Hall (conference center, cafeteria, administrative offices) and Hale Manoa (a men's dormitory) opened in September 1963. graduated from the University of Hawaii with a M.A. in geography in June 1964.[8]

In June 1962, Barack Obama, Sr., after graduating from the University of Hawaii, left Hawaii to travel to Cambridge, Massachusetts to begin graduate study at Harvard University in fall 1962.[9] After living in Seattle, Washington with her infant son while taking classes at the University of Washington from September 1961 to June 1962, Ann Dunham Obama returned to Honolulu and resumed her undergraduate education at the University of Hawaii with the spring semester in January 1963,[10] and filed for divorce in January 1964, which Obama Sr. did not contest.[11]

met Ann Dunham at the East-West Center while both were students at the University of Hawaii.[11][12][13] and Dunham married in Hawaii in 1965.[13] returned to Indonesia in 1966,[14] and Dunham and her son moved into her parent's house at 2234 University Avenue in the Middle Manoa neighborhood of Honolulu.[15] Dunham continued her studies at the University of Hawaii and earned a B.A. in anthropology in August 1967, while her son attended kindergarten in 1966–1967 at Noelani Elementary School.[15][16]

In October 1967, Dunham and her six-year-old son moved to Jakarta to rejoin her husband.

Sometimes reading P&M posts reminds me of Nigerian and other scam
emails...

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 11, 2011 10:24:10 GMT -5 oped said:

Paul... did you miss the announcement where Obama said he IS running?

Given this President's track record on "announcements" I'd say it is the best indication yet he may not run.

In fact, it's really interesting what a big deal was made of the "announcement" as if there was any doubt.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I never claimed that was Obama's father. I never quoted any conspiracy theorist, or any website- but the words of Barry himself. I simply pointed out the admissions of Barack Obama:

Obama was born to U.S. citizen Stanley Ann Dunham,

legally adopted by a foreign national named Lolo , had taken the name President Obama, and was given Indonesian citizenship.

He was raised as a Muslim in Indonesia, and attended a school there that accepted all faiths.

At one point, President Obama moved to Hawaii to reside with his grandparents after Lolo and Stanley Ann DUNHAM divorced. Obama completed high school as President Obama

[Deleted]

"as if there was any doubt"

So.... in fact you do not doubt it? ...

[Deleted]

I really can't believe they let him attend a school that accepts all faiths though.. i mean, if they wanted him to actual attend school with people of other faiths, they could have just left him in American public school...


Where are those words you quoted him coming from? Thanks...

[henryclay]

This is getting more interesting all the time.

www.wnd.com/?pageId=285921

Now, with all those documents floating around out in the public and making liars out of them, why in the world would Hawaii's governor and other "officials" go on ahead and make up stories like they did about what Hawaii does and does not issue for birth records in those islands? Everything I see looks suspiciously like what they issue every where else in the United States. I wish I could spend a couple of dollars and get one for myself. I wasn't born in Hawaii. I was born in a snow storm, (they say), and when I sent my money in like a good boy to get a birth certificate they wrote me back and said I didn't have a birth certificate. But they kept my money. The Marine Corps let me in on my school records, (grabbed me before I could change my mind is more like it), and that's the way it's been ever since.

But I'm not Obama, so I ain't got nothnng to hide like he does.

I'm just wondering what it all is he don't want nobody to know about. Heck, , , being a nosy American, it just makes me curiouser and curiouser.

[Deleted]

He sure is ,hiding something, or several somethings worth spending millions of his personal $$$ to keep hidden. His past is so weird and undefined, his political life so empty with all those "present" votes, it is easy for me to think he was groomed for the job a long time beffore he got it. The few FACTS we know about him, like the radicals and terrorists he hange out with are all terrible, and the rest is unknown. HOW did he ever get elected??

Birth certificates can most certainly be forged, or even just wrong. I just got in the mail a copy of my BC from TX. Last time I ordered one was 4 years ago. That one was a long form, had the doctors signature, hospital,everything. This one is short, no details, and they mispelled my mother's name!!! Some human obviously did that, and humans can be bought. Just like the group of DMV employees they busted in Tucson a couple of years ago that were creating fake DLs for illegals. As for the old microfilm of the news-- no one is going to tell me that with modern technology and a ton of money that could not have been faked, too. Then there is the discrepancy of which hospital, and the fake address on the news article (verified by people in the neighborhood their whole lives). If it was just the BC I could blow it off, but there are many, many unanswered questions about who this guy really is. What amazes me is not that so many people ask these questions, but that so many don't. No Republican could get away with this. Forget the libs-- conservatives would not let him or her win the primary.

[Deleted]

How is he spending millions of his personal $$$ ? Thanks.

henry... you're slow... that woman made those claims last year...

[privateinvestor]

News Flash....I could care less where Barrack was born....even if he was born in Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston MA and went to Boston College High School in Dorchester MA and then to Harvard University ...I would still note vote for him...But if he was born in Kenya then he sure has fooled our government with a scam of all scams..IMHO...


BTW in case you are wondering my same views Re; Birthers...are also expressed by a lot of Joe Six Packs, Red Necks, Ex Jarheads, and old, old retired military guys...and that you can take to the bank..


Good Morning Ms Oped ...hope you have a nice one..

Hey Henry Clay ...Semper Fi.....Old Marines Rock!!

& we finally won one on Monday..

[Opti]

PBP, can you prove this?
"Obama completed high school as President Obama"

I found a few pics of Obama in high school and they all say Barack Obamabama.

[Deleted]

Looks like I am wrong about the money. It is money donated by Obama lovers paying for this. No wonder Obama does not give a crap. Are you guys content to have your money-- a LOT of money--- spent on this trash?? Tell him to obtain the long form BC. No one is going to convince me that the POTUUS does not have the clout to have that form faxed to him in 10 minutes.It's stupid. Why don't you guys that are wasting your donated dollars to this instead of maybe paying for some PP abortions with the money tell him to produce the original BC?? Most people do not really believe he is foreign, but this is so stupid it is hard to let go of.
I'm with PI, though. He's proved to me he is not a good POTUS now, aside from all the weird things that made me not vote for him the first time around.
www.wnd.com/?pageId=114202#ixzz1IrRSoSUt