NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 5, 2018 12:38:05 GMT -5
Ok here is a question,build a wall, one time expense, plus maintenance. keeping the pretty much the same border patrol in place, It won't stop every thing, but it might stop that semi load of coke from sneaking across in one piece. Or, build up the border Patrol to the point that it is huge, use high dollar drone, that require high dollar maintenance, use high dollar surveillance equipment. which again requires high dollar maintenance. not counting the cost of the medical and retirement packages as this huge border patrol starts to retire! Huh? Semis are driving across the desert? it gets smuggled in at regular border crossings. Or flown in. Or boated in. The wall is going to do nothing to stop this. A good majority of drugs are coming from China and are being sold online nowadays. China is leader when it comes to prescription drugs such as Oxy. You know those countries Trump insists have no drug problems.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Apr 5, 2018 13:06:54 GMT -5
Building a HUGE wall sounds impressive and effective.
Unfortunately, it is mostly just costly.
Like much of what Trump proposes, it's a 1950s solution trying to tackle a 21st century problem.
The narrative from the Trump and his minions is that drugs and criminals are pouring into the country across the U.S./Mexico border.
The reality? As far as people crossing the border, I imagine that the vast majority are ordinary folks fleeing poverty and violence. The right wing talking points are always fun in their contradictions. Obviously all the poor folks invading the U.S. just want to live forever on our welfare programs. OR Obviously all the poor folks invading the U.S. just want to steal U.S. jobs from hard working U.S. citizens. Unless you listen to Trump, then Obviously all the folks invading the U.S. are rapists and murderers.
What we need is a cost effective approach to deal with the problem of drugs being brought into the U.S. and undocumented aliens either sneaking into the country or overstaying their visas. Instead of a knee jerk reaction and ineffective solution, the problem needs to be studied to find out where and how drugs get into the country and focus our solution dollars at the resolving that issue. For example, if 90% of illegal drugs are being brought in by drones from Canada and only 10% by horseback from Mexico, then maybe 90% of our efforts should be focused on the Canadian border. Also, if U.S. Customs drones along the U.S./Mexican border are 1/10th the cost and 4 times more effective than a wall (made up numbers for example purposes), then put the money into drones.
Just - good grief! - stop treating this issue like we're living in a 1950s world.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 13:50:54 GMT -5
Building a HUGE wall sounds impressive and effective. Unfortunately, it is mostly just costly. Like much of what Trump proposes, it's a 1950s solution trying to tackle a 21st century problem. The narrative from the Trump and his minions is that drugs and criminals are pouring into the country across the U.S./Mexico border. The reality? As far as people crossing the border, I imagine that the vast majority are ordinary folks fleeing poverty and violence. The right wing talking points are always fun in their contradictions. Obviously all the poor folks invading the U.S. just want to live forever on our welfare programs. OR Obviously all the poor folks invading the U.S. just want to steal U.S. jobs from hard working U.S. citizens. Unless you listen to Trump, then Obviously all the folks invading the U.S. are rapists and murderers. What we need is a cost effective approach to deal with the problem of drugs being brought into the U.S. and undocumented aliens either sneaking into the country or overstaying their visas. Instead of a knee jerk reaction and ineffective solution, the problem needs to be studied to find out where and how drugs get into the country and focus our solution dollars at the resolving that issue. For example, if 90% of illegal drugs are being brought in by drones from Canada and only 10% by horseback from Mexico, then maybe 90% of our efforts should be focused on the Canadian border. Also, if U.S. Customs drones along the U.S./Mexican border are 1/10th the cost and 4 times more effective than a wall (made up numbers for example purposes), then put the money into drones. Just - good grief! - stop treating this issue like we're living in a 1950s world. that is just it tho. he is living in Ozzieandharrietville, and he is selling that crap to others who WANT to live there. but there is no turning back the clock. the "best" you can do is veneer over it. and that is what this is. the veneer presidency.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Apr 5, 2018 13:57:43 GMT -5
![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/thumbsup.png) good realization of what a wall might actually be able to stop. I don't think it is worth it if all it will do is force some drug smugglers to adopt a different method to get drugs into the country. So in other word there is nothing we can do, cause they will find a way around it. Well hell, let's save a whole bunch of money, disband the border patrol tear down what fences, we have. We can have a free for all.. Look at the money We can save! The cost of the drug will plummet cause it is no longer hard to get them in here . We can avoid tariffs and import taxes. Hey, We can balance the budget, that is is important now, but not under the last president!! Hey!!!! what could possibly be a down side of total open borders?? I understand you are being sarcastic....but this sounds an awful lot like the argument the right has about guns....there is nothing we can do, so lets just do away with it all!
And for the record, no one here is suggestion a free for all or disbanding the border patrol. Many many MANY people have suggested a far more useful approach. STOP HIRING ILLEGALS.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Apr 5, 2018 14:08:35 GMT -5
Clinton was President the last time the budget was balanced.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 14:18:33 GMT -5
You realize there are a lot of private ranch lands abutting the border, right? And plenty of sport fishermen or recreational boaters who might be out for a jaunt on the ocean?
How popular will your 'shoot first ask questions later' border patrol be among the red states when the first ranch employee gets shot or fishing boat sunk? Think they'll shrug it off and say the guy must have been doing something wrong, or in the wrong place, like they do with black guys get killed by the cops? Or will they think the collateral damage is ok as long as most of the people getting killed are the brown people trying to get into the country?
Not since the Supreme Court ruled that the government can take your land forrrrrr just about any reason they want, Screw those farmers and ranchers! I am sure they will feel the love when the SWAT teams show up "We are here to assist you" Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, believed that all land should be publicly owned.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 14:19:35 GMT -5
Ok here is a question,build a wall, one time expense, plus maintenance. keeping the pretty much the same border patrol in place, It won't stop every thing, but it might stop that semi load of coke from sneaking across in one piece. Or, build up the border Patrol to the point that it is huge, use high dollar drone, that require high dollar maintenance, use high dollar surveillance equipment. which again requires high dollar maintenance. not counting the cost of the medical and retirement packages as this huge border patrol starts to retire! both?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 14:22:52 GMT -5
![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/thumbsup.png) good realization of what a wall might actually be able to stop. I don't think it is worth it if all it will do is force some drug smugglers to adopt a different method to get drugs into the country. So in other word there is nothing we can do, cause they will find a way around it. Well hell, let's save a whole bunch of money, disband the border patrol tear down what fences, we have. We can have a free for all.. Look at the money We can save! The cost of the drug will plummet cause it is no longer hard to get them in here . We can avoid tariffs and import taxes. Hey, We can balance the budget, that is is important now, but not under the last president!! Hey!!!! what could possibly be a down side of total open borders?? maybe nothing. it's an idea worth considering. in response to your first point: sure, there are reasonable things we can do. militarizing the border is about as reasonable as militarizing the highway patrol or the public school system.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 14:25:25 GMT -5
Interesting article from 2012: The failure of the Great WallConsidering the size and effort put into its construction over 2,000 years ago, the failure of the Great Wall of China is rather spectacular. It worked as a manifestation of power that put fear into the hearts of barbarian riders but it didn’t keep any invaders from the north out. Rumoured to have been built using the dead, the construction took hundreds of years and some people still mistakenly believe it’s visible from the Moon. However, as a defensive measure against invading forces, it has been about as useful to China as a Bible on a battlefield. It can give you comfort, but it just won’t stop the enemy. Another argument is that the Great Wall was nothing more than an ambitious project contrived by a vainglorious emperor. The Great Wall was supposed to show the world China’s superiority, making a clear distinction between civilized people and barbarians. Complete article here: The failure of the Great Wallyeah, but it is a beautiful wall. i mean, you have seen it, right? beautiful wall. and he knew how to build things.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 14:26:18 GMT -5
Ok here is a question,build a wall, one time expense, plus maintenance. keeping the pretty much the same border patrol in place, It won't stop every thing, but it might stop that semi load of coke from sneaking across in one piece. Or, build up the border Patrol to the point that it is huge, use high dollar drone, that require high dollar maintenance, use high dollar surveillance equipment. which again requires high dollar maintenance. not counting the cost of the medical and retirement packages as this huge border patrol starts to retire! A much better plan (and cheaper too)-go after the people who employ illegal immigrants. Fines and prison sentences. If there is no way of earning a living here or to be able to receive social services, illegal immigrants will leave the country for better pastures. this is precisely it. you cut off demand, supply goes POOF.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 14:28:01 GMT -5
I still don't understand how a multibillion dollar wall is going to do anything about the people who came here to visit legally and overstayed their visa/time allotment. Maybe putting more effort into tracking those people down? And more resources in the courts/agencies who are reviewing applications? Drones with heat sensors and night vision would be the best way to track down people sneaking in. Or is that too high tech and complex for the "build the wall" neanderthals? won't stop people coming in from the North, either, which is the most likely route for folks coming from the Middle East, since it is well connected to cities like Montreal.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 14:29:22 GMT -5
Ok here is a question,build a wall, one time expense, plus maintenance. keeping the pretty much the same border patrol in place, It won't stop every thing, but it might stop that semi load of coke from sneaking across in one piece. Or, build up the border Patrol to the point that it is huge, use high dollar drone, that require high dollar maintenance, use high dollar surveillance equipment. which again requires high dollar maintenance. not counting the cost of the medical and retirement packages as this huge border patrol starts to retire! Huh? Semis are driving across the desert? it gets smuggled in at regular border crossings. Or flown in. Or boated in. The wall is going to do nothing to stop this. smuggled in slabs of meat, or up the anus of travelers, some of whom are US citizens. demand is the thing, not supply, and not borders. stop the demand, the supply goes away.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 5, 2018 14:41:12 GMT -5
I still don't understand how a multibillion dollar wall is going to do anything about the people who came here to visit legally and overstayed their visa/time allotment. Maybe putting more effort into tracking those people down? And more resources in the courts/agencies who are reviewing applications? Drones with heat sensors and night vision would be the best way to track down people sneaking in. Or is that too high tech and complex for the "build the wall" neanderthals? won't stop people coming in from the North, either, which is the most likely route for folks coming from the Middle East, since it is well connected to cities like Montreal. I don't want stuff to stop coming in from the North. It's bad for business.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 5, 2018 14:46:53 GMT -5
I am not sure why people think that the military will be an effective border patrol force. Why not bills, No mans land, any one is fair game. target practice. unauthorized airplane, shoot it down, boat in the wrong place wrong time. blow it out of the water, If some one is caught illegally in this country, return them to their country, Let them out at five thousand foot, without a parachute! See, border security!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My God! What's wrong with you? Shoot first, ask questions later? ....and you probably consider yourself to be one of the "good guys with a gun". You're not. Far from it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 5, 2018 15:00:03 GMT -5
Ok here is a question,build a wall, one time expense, plus maintenance. keeping the pretty much the same border patrol in place, It won't stop every thing, but it might stop that semi load of coke from sneaking across in one piece.
Or, build up the border Patrol to the point that it is huge, use high dollar drone, that require high dollar maintenance, use high dollar surveillance equipment. which again requires high dollar maintenance. not counting the cost of the medical and retirement packages as this huge border patrol starts to retire! What? People are still using coke? "You're living in the past, man." Are you having a coke crisis in the US or an opioid crisis? You know that fentanyl is coming in from China, right? OK, you probably don't. Keep concentrating on truckloads of coke sneaking through the desert. Lol!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 5, 2018 15:53:36 GMT -5
Best thing about The Wall is the lyrics. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/note.gif) We don't need no education We're just fine with mind control No dark sarcasm 'bout what we believe Think our way! We'll make you leave Hey! Liberals! Just leave us alone All we want's to be another brick in the wall We're so proud to be another brick in the wall
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 5, 2018 16:32:09 GMT -5
Why not bills, No mans land, any one is fair game. target practice. unauthorized airplane, shoot it down, boat in the wrong place wrong time. blow it out of the water, If some one is caught illegally in this country, return them to their country, Let them out at five thousand foot, without a parachute! See, border security!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My God! What's wrong with you? Shoot first, ask questions later? ....and you probably consider yourself to be one of the "good guys with a gun". You're not. Far from it. What part of illegal did you miss. but hey if we shoot some Americans along the way, oh well. We can always fall back on the ol police standard of I feared for my life or They didn't obey my commands, Work every time there!! Especially if they are unarmed!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 5, 2018 16:38:35 GMT -5
.....and there, boys and girls, is the myth of the good guy with a gun.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 5, 2018 16:49:06 GMT -5
Last comment then I need to go back to work.
After reading the comments, It now appears that nothing will work!
Cause they can dig under fly over, go around or hundreds of other ways to defeat the wall,,,
So be it.
Now how can I profit from this? hmmmm, Illegal Transporting Services,
Kinda catchy title,
wait, here is another, Illegal Document Services, that one will be busy!
Illegal Employment Services, where we don't actual provide the employment just the referral for a fee. That should work since we would not be actually employing the illegals.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Apr 5, 2018 18:20:40 GMT -5
Now you know how gun control advocates feel....
And again, there IS a solution, you are just ignoring it. STOP HIRING ILLEGALS!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 5, 2018 19:27:45 GMT -5
Last comment then I need to go back to work. After reading the comments, It now appears that nothing will work! you are clearly not reading. i already said that it is not hopeless. but what is required is that we stop trying the same stuff that hasn't worked forEVER, and expecting it to work. so yeah, we are not into that anymore. the wall won't work. we need to rethink the problem. you cut off the demand, and the supply will stop. period. you dry up the supply, and maintain the demand, then the supply WILL keep coming, with even greater intensity. we all know this. but there are those that live in fairy-land, and think that doubling down on stupid will fix it. it won't
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Apr 5, 2018 19:54:32 GMT -5
Will AS/OC answer that question? Has he hired illegals and does he know others that have done so too?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 5, 2018 19:58:59 GMT -5
So in other word there is nothing we can do, cause they will find a way around it. Well hell, let's save a whole bunch of money, disband the border patrol tear down what fences, we have. We can have a free for all.. Look at the money We can save! The cost of the drug will plummet cause it is no longer hard to get them in here . We can avoid tariffs and import taxes. Hey, We can balance the budget, that is is important now, but not under the last president!! Hey!!!! what could possibly be a down side of total open borders?? maybe nothing. it's an idea worth considering. in response to your first point: sure, there are reasonable things we can do. militarizing the border is about as reasonable as militarizing the highway patrol or the public school system. Isn't this exactly what many advocate though when they say teachers need to be armed?
I strongly suspect Michael Moore was right after all in his premise of Bowling for Columbine: people love guns so much because they are afraid. They are scared to death and think that the bigger gun will keep them safe.
As several others have said before, if we want to do something about illegal immigration we need to go after the people who employ them. Similarly, if we want to do something about our drug problem, we need to look at our pharmaceutical industry. It is pretty well documented that today's heroin epidemic has its roots in the (over)prescription of narcotics, pushed by the pharmaceutical companies to the doctors and on to patients. A lot of problems our society has could be solved if we stopped looking for scapegoats, started accepting our responsibilty in this, and look for viable solutions from the inside.
And while I like having money just as much as most people, green is not the only color that counts.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 5, 2018 23:16:21 GMT -5
So in other word there is nothing we can do, cause they will find a way around it. Well hell, let's save a whole bunch of money, disband the border patrol tear down what fences, we have. We can have a free for all.. Look at the money We can save! The cost of the drug will plummet cause it is no longer hard to get them in here . We can avoid tariffs and import taxes. Hey, We can balance the budget, that is is important now, but not under the last president!! Hey!!!! what could possibly be a down side of total open borders?? I understand you are being sarcastic....but this sounds an awful lot like the argument the right has about guns....there is nothing we can do, so lets just do away with it all!
And for the record, no one here is suggestion a free for all or disbanding the border patrol. Many many MANY people have suggested a far more useful approach. STOP HIRING ILLEGALS.
Ahhhh man, now my lawn is not going to get mowed, the car is not going to get washed, I am not going to see all those people at home Depot trying to flag me down for a job, not going to have clean dishes at the restaurant. half hour wait at McDonalds for a big mac. no roof on my house again cause of no workers. No chicken or hamburgers any more, who is going to dig those ditches?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 6, 2018 7:19:17 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 6, 2018 7:57:11 GMT -5
I would be interested in also hearing from the soldier who killed the teenager. I image he wasn't much older at the time than the American he shot. How does he feel about having been put in this situation? How does he feel about the training he received to be able to carry out the mission?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 6, 2018 8:13:31 GMT -5
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tbop77
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Post by tbop77 on Apr 6, 2018 8:24:53 GMT -5
All in the world this is amounts to, he ticked off his base when he signed the budget deal that did not included funds for his wall. No thought at all put into anything except stirring the pot to get the two sides fighting...and he is all in his glory!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 6, 2018 10:49:22 GMT -5
I understand you are being sarcastic....but this sounds an awful lot like the argument the right has about guns....there is nothing we can do, so lets just do away with it all!
And for the record, no one here is suggestion a free for all or disbanding the border patrol. Many many MANY people have suggested a far more useful approach. STOP HIRING ILLEGALS.
Ahhhh man, now my lawn is not going to get mowed, the car is not going to get washed, I am not going to see all those people at home Depot trying to flag me down for a job, not going to have clean dishes at the restaurant. half hour wait at McDonalds for a big mac. no roof on my house again cause of no workers. No chicken or hamburgers any more, who is going to dig those ditches? has it occurred to you that the Wall is offered up as a solution because they KNOW it won't work?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Apr 6, 2018 10:59:45 GMT -5
I think a great place to start for all of those so concerned about illegal immigration is for them to stop hiring illegals.
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