Parkland, FL school shooting

[Spellbound454]

You vehemently disagree with this group. Not only are you skeptical that banning the vending machines will significantly curb child diabetes, you see a ban as depriving everyone in the city of enjoyment, convenience, and fundamental liberty.

"You" are representing the people, and you answer to the people... ..."You" are not an autonomous Mayor.... and you don't have the privilege of governing on your own whims.
You research the hard evidence..... Explore the support.
Then speak with conviction and back up your facts....to both parties.

and not try to obscure with lyrical blurb.

Most people on here are intelligent enough to see straight through it anyway.

[thyme4change]

Our problem is loneliness and disconnection. This can be both a cause and effect of mental illness. We have to admit that we are pack animals. But our fierce loyalty to the concepts of indepence, self-suffiency and isolation is making it worse and worse.

We live in giant houses, with walls between us and our neighbors. Kids have their own room, isolated from siblings and parents. We get in our individual cars and drive with our windows up. At best our human contact is to flip someone off. Typical offices are somewhat isolating, and the top ranked leisure activities are mostly solitary activities. I know 12 people will come and tell me they hate people and are better off alone, but that isn't how things are playing out in society.

[tallguy]

Feb 15, 2018 13:21:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 15, 2018 10:45:06 GMT -5 Tiny said:

But, when it's offered when something obviously COULD be done and NEEDS to be done,  it's rather insulting I think.

Two tough but serious questions for you:

Suppose you're the mayor of a city. A group of 200 people--the parents of children and teenagers that died from complications with diabetes--are intractably convinced that banning three classes of vending machine will have a major impact in preventing child deaths due to diabetes in the city. They're petitioning you to enact the ban, which you have the power to do. They approach you and renew their demand every time another diabetic child in the city dies, each time insisting that something CAN be done and NEEDS to be done.

You vehemently disagree with this group. Not only are you skeptical that banning the vending machines will significantly curb child diabetes, you see a ban as depriving everyone in the city of enjoyment, convenience, and fundamental liberty.

Suddenly your phone rings. It's a reporter from a major newspaper. A popular child Internet star from your city has just passed away from complications due to diabetes, and her parents have joined together with the group of 200. They're on their way over to your office now. Would you like make a comment for the public record?

You realize you must say something, both to the reporter and to the parents of the dead child. The case is simply too high profile to avoid.

What do you say to the reporter?

What do you say to the parents and the group of 200?


If you don't consider this situation analogous to gun control, we'll get to that shortly. For now, I'd like to know how you (or anyone else who cares to answer) answer the above two questions. My thanks in advance for taking the exercise seriously.

It is in no way analogous to gun control, so the setup is invalid from the start.  Do you want me to say why, or are we waiting for that? 

[thyme4change]

Mayors don't write laws. All of those people should be bugging the city council, or whomever make the laws.

[weltschmerz]

Ha ha ha! ROTFLMAO!



Trump spoke directly to American schoolchildren, urging them to reach out to authority figures in their lives for help and to treat each other with dignity.

“Answer hate with love; answer cruelty with kindness,” he said. “We must also work together to create a culture in our country that embraces the dignity of life, that creates deep and meaningful human connections, and that turns classmates and colleagues into friends and neighbors.”


www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/15/donald-trump-florida-school-shooting/

Oh, like HE does? He answers hate with love? He set the standard to attack those who have wronged you, ten times harder! He's said it many times.
Even Melania has said that when her husband gets attacked, he will punch back 10 times harder," 

I have never seen him answering hate with love....not once. Ever.
I guess it applies to the hoi polio, and not him.
Great role model.

[Spellbound454]

I wonder what wistful platitudes he'll come up with next time

which on current form should be in a couple of days.




and how exactly are you going to tackle mental illness? you are talking millions of people.
Let us know what the magic answer to that is..... because the whole World wants to know.

[thyme4change]

Feb 15, 2018 14:40:18 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Ha ha ha! ROTFLMAO!



Trump spoke directly to American schoolchildren, urging them to reach out to authority figures in their lives for help and to treat each other with dignity.

“Answer hate with love; answer cruelty with kindness,” he said. “We must also work together to create a culture in our country that embraces the dignity of life, that creates deep and meaningful human connections, and that turns classmates and colleagues into friends and neighbors.”


www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/15/donald-trump-florida-school-shooting/

Oh, like HE does? He answers hate with love? He set the standard to attack those who have wronged you, ten times harder! He's said it many times.
Even Melania has said that when her husband gets attacked, he will punch back 10 times harder," 

I have never seen him answering hate with love....not once. Ever.
I guess it applies to the hoi polio, and not him.
Great role model.

He showed love to the members of a white supremacy group when they showed hate to Jews and black people. (And probably gays and Muslims, too.)

[Green Eyed Lady]

It's a good thing these school shootings never happened until Trump got elected.  If they had, we'd have to place the blame on someone/something other than him.

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2018 15:30:17 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It's a good thing these school shootings never happened until Trump got elected.  If they had, we'd have to place the blame on someone/something other than him.

Nobody said that. Nobody at all except you.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 15:35:36 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Feb 15, 2018 15:30:17 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It's a good thing these school shootings never happened until Trump got elected.  If they had, we'd have to place the blame on someone/something other than him.

Nobody said that. Nobody at all except you.

You can keep acting like a 3 year old at the dinner table who keeps saying the same swear word hoping that somebody will pay attention to you, but that somebody isn't going to be me.

Trump shouldn't even be in this conversation.  People who want to actually solve the problems know that.  People who use this forum to "ROTFLAO" and spit the same cussword over and over obviously don't. 

[weltschmerz]

I'm not using any cuss words or swearing. I didn't blame Trump for this and neither did anyone else.

[thyme4change]

This is a problem for Congress. Too bad the NRA bought them off.

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2018 15:19:36 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Feb 15, 2018 14:40:18 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Ha ha ha! ROTFLMAO!



Trump spoke directly to American schoolchildren, urging them to reach out to authority figures in their lives for help and to treat each other with dignity.

“Answer hate with love; answer cruelty with kindness,” he said. “We must also work together to create a culture in our country that embraces the dignity of life, that creates deep and meaningful human connections, and that turns classmates and colleagues into friends and neighbors.”


www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/15/donald-trump-florida-school-shooting/

Oh, like HE does? He answers hate with love? He set the standard to attack those who have wronged you, ten times harder! He's said it many times.
Even Melania has said that when her husband gets attacked, he will punch back 10 times harder," 

I have never seen him answering hate with love....not once. Ever.
I guess it applies to the hoi polio, and not him.
Great role model.

He showed love to the members of a white supremacy group when they showed hate to Jews and black people. (And probably gays and Muslims, too.)

This is true. As well as showing love to wife-beaters in his administration, and child molesters, like Roy Moore.

[Spellbound454]

I do...he could do something but he won't.

89% of people, including gun owners..... would support the banning of guns to people with mental illnesses, federal or no-fly watch lists.
www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/

It might not work...... given that the are so many guns in circulation and some people would be very upset.
but is "something" positive ...which is a whole lot better than endless condolences for the parents of murdered School kids.

Put it with other measures such as flagging up people of interest and those who are unbalanced..... and it might be a plan.

[NastyWoman]

Feb 14, 2018 22:08:19 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I am forced to wonder if the narrative would change if all of these disaffected shooters were targeting gun shows and conventions rather than schools?  Perhaps not, but let's have 18 of those shot up in six weeks and see what happens.   

Well remember the uproar when there were some congressmen shot at during trainig for some baseball game in June or July last year?  There were all sorts of prayers and well-wishes going to those affected. But there was also a big to do on improving security for the members of congress.

Just so no one misunderstands: I do not want any harm to come to any congress person, but why should they be treated better than our kids?  We need to improve the safety of everyone. The old saw of "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is more than a little deficient.  We need controls that separate certain people from these innocent guns.  And I know it won't stop every mass shooting but we have to start somwhere.

Nobody seems to find it strange that we need to renew our drivers license every couple of years. Why not a renewable gun permit? Driving without a DL guarantees me a ticket, so why not a penalty for carrying without a permit or an expired one?

Keep your prayers at home or in your church/synagogue/mosques/etc. and start dealing with the problem that needs to be dealt with.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 11:16:44 GMT -5 midjd said:

I don't think it's a gun or a mental health problem. It's a cultural problem. Otherwise the perpetrators would be far more diverse (since mental health issues and gun ownership/access are not limited to one race or gender). There are so many school shootings that don't (or barely) make the news that I can't say with certainty that none of the shooters have been female or non-white, but if they have been, it's a minuscule percentage.

Obviously if someone thinks spraying bullets is an appropriate response to [whatever], they've got some other stuff going on upstairs, but IMO characterizing these mass shootings as an offshoot of our failure to treat mental health problems just further stigmatizes depression, anxiety, BPD, etc. and makes it less likely that people will seek help. Nobody wants to risk being put on a "list." 

Mid raises an excellent point here. The demographics of these killers is pretty much white male. Little to no exceptions. So why are white males so angry and looking to hurt people? I heard an interesting story the other day and I have no way to know if it's true or not.  It was told to me by the mother of a young man.  She had seen the story on Facebook.  Apparently, it was a bulletin board in a classroom at a high school. The teacher had put up several post-it notes, writing such things as "Females. You are safe in my class. Nobody will be allowed to grope you." "Black students. Your life matters is my class." There were notes for just about everyone - all races, religions, ethnicities, sexual preferences. Good idea, right? All things to strive for, right? However, commenters on the article pointed out that there were no messages for heterosexual white males.  Are they feeling forgotten? Are they feeling like nobody cares about them? Are they feeling invisible?  This particular mother sure felt her son was being left out of mix. 



There's no doubt the heterosexual white male has had his way in life since the beginning of time and there is no reason to be angry that they have to share the riches now. Right now, the immigrant students, the female students, the students of races other than white, the LGBTQ students - they are getting all kinds of attention.  Are the heterosexual white male students feeling invisible?  Add some mental illness into the mix where, possibly, there are already feelings of anger and loss and maybe we have something to look at here.

There is no question any of this is an excuse, but could it possibly be a contributing factor among dozens of other factors?

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 13:44:57 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Which of these do you mean?

The two are equivalent. Unless you can fathom a ban that reduces child deaths due to diabetes without curbing child diabetes, or one that curbs child diabetes without reducing child deaths due to diabetes.

Feb 15, 2018 13:58:32 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

"You" are representing the people, and you answer to the people... ..."You" are not an autonomous Mayor.... and you don't have the privilege of governing on your own whims.
You research the hard evidence..... Explore the support.
Then speak with conviction and back up your facts....to both parties.

and not try to obscure with lyrical blurb.

Most people on here are intelligent enough to see straight through it anyway.

I've posited that you have the power to enact the ban. Whether "on your own whims" or through wielding sufficient influence in the legislative process isn't relevant. You have the power to make the change, you know it, and the public knows it.

With this clarified, can you give a concrete example of what you'd say to the reporter and the grieving parents? A short statement (one or two sentences) for the reporter to print in his article, and the first paragraph or two of your address to the parents?

Feb 15, 2018 14:33:15 GMT -5 tallguy said:

It is in no way analogous to gun control, so the setup is invalid from the start.  Do you want me to say why, or are we waiting for that? 

I'm not sure what part of "If you don't consider this situation analogous to gun control, we'll get to that shortly. For now, I'd like to know how you (or anyone else who cares to answer) answer the above two questions." is confusing you, but: no, I don't want you to say why, and yes, we will debate this point later.

Feb 15, 2018 14:35:05 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Mayors don't write laws. All of those people should be bugging the city council, or whomever make the laws.

See my reply to Spellbound above. I'll add that the relevant details of the setup are: you are an elected public official; "I couldn't do anything even if I wanted to" isn't an excuse; you must make a statement, both to the press and to the parents of the dead child.

[tallguy]

Feb 15, 2018 17:13:48 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Feb 15, 2018 11:16:44 GMT -5 midjd said:

I don't think it's a gun or a mental health problem. It's a cultural problem. Otherwise the perpetrators would be far more diverse (since mental health issues and gun ownership/access are not limited to one race or gender). There are so many school shootings that don't (or barely) make the news that I can't say with certainty that none of the shooters have been female or non-white, but if they have been, it's a minuscule percentage.

Obviously if someone thinks spraying bullets is an appropriate response to [whatever], they've got some other stuff going on upstairs, but IMO characterizing these mass shootings as an offshoot of our failure to treat mental health problems just further stigmatizes depression, anxiety, BPD, etc. and makes it less likely that people will seek help. Nobody wants to risk being put on a "list." 

Mid raises an excellent point here. The demographics of these killers is pretty much white male. Little to no exceptions. So why are white males so angry and looking to hurt people? I heard an interesting story the other day and I have no way to know if it's true or not.  It was told to me by the mother of a young man.  She had seen the story on Facebook.  Apparently, it was a bulletin board in a classroom at a high school. The teacher had put up several post-it notes, writing such things as "Females. You are safe in my class. Nobody will be allowed to grope you." "Black students. Your life matters is my class." There were notes for just about everyone - all races, religions, ethnicities, sexual preferences. Good idea, right? All things to strive for, right? However, commenters on the article pointed out that there were no messages for heterosexual white males.  Are they feeling forgotten? Are they feeling like nobody cares about them? Are they feeling invisible?  This particular mother sure felt her son was being left out of mix. 



There's no doubt the heterosexual white male has had his way in life since the beginning of time and there is no reason to be angry that they have to share the riches now. Right now, the immigrant students, the female students, the students of races other than white, the LGBTQ students - they are getting all kinds of attention.  Are the heterosexual white male students feeling invisible?  Add some mental illness into the mix where, possibly, there are already feelings of anger and loss and maybe we have something to look at here.

There is no question any of this is an excuse, but could it possibly be a contributing factor among dozens of other factors?

Here is my immediate take on that.

Females as a group are generally disadvantaged as far as safety and even opportunity.  Black students as a group (and other minorities as well) are generally disadvantaged also.  The messages you cite are to announce that the group(s) will not be disadvantaged there.  White males as a group are not disadvantaged in either school or society, so no such special message is necessary for them.  The problem arises for white males as individuals.  The individual may be bullied, or ostracized, or feel alienated, and any of those could create an issue, but that has to be addressed through the general "ALL are important..." rather than a specific protection which targets and seems to favor the already dominant group.    

[tallguy]

Feb 15, 2018 17:24:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 15, 2018 14:33:15 GMT -5 tallguy said:

It is in no way analogous to gun control, so the setup is invalid from the start.  Do you want me to say why, or are we waiting for that? 

I'm not sure what part of "If you don't consider this situation analogous to gun control, we'll get to that shortly. For now, I'd like to know how you (or anyone else who cares to answer) answer the above two questions." is confusing you, but: no, I don't want you to say why, and yes, we will debate this point later.

That part was not confusing, hence why i did not say why already.  What WAS confusing was why you would consider this even tangentially relevant or analogous to gun control.  The only factor that really matters is totally lacking.   

[billisonboard]

Feb 15, 2018 17:24:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 15, 2018 13:44:57 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Which of these do you mean?

The two are equivalent. Unless you can fathom a ban that reduces child deaths due to diabetes without curbing child diabetes, ...

Banning teacher and childcare worker ignorance (by requiring properly documented education) of the warning signs of diabetes ketoacidosis will reduce child deaths due to diabetes without curing child diabetes. Type 1 diabetes in children

Next.

[Tennesseer]

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 17:39:08 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Feb 15, 2018 17:13:48 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Mid raises an excellent point here. The demographics of these killers is pretty much white male. Little to no exceptions. So why are white males so angry and looking to hurt people? I heard an interesting story the other day and I have no way to know if it's true or not.  It was told to me by the mother of a young man.  She had seen the story on Facebook.  Apparently, it was a bulletin board in a classroom at a high school. The teacher had put up several post-it notes, writing such things as "Females. You are safe in my class. Nobody will be allowed to grope you." "Black students. Your life matters is my class." There were notes for just about everyone - all races, religions, ethnicities, sexual preferences. Good idea, right? All things to strive for, right? However, commenters on the article pointed out that there were no messages for heterosexual white males.  Are they feeling forgotten? Are they feeling like nobody cares about them? Are they feeling invisible?  This particular mother sure felt her son was being left out of mix. 



There's no doubt the heterosexual white male has had his way in life since the beginning of time and there is no reason to be angry that they have to share the riches now. Right now, the immigrant students, the female students, the students of races other than white, the LGBTQ students - they are getting all kinds of attention.  Are the heterosexual white male students feeling invisible?  Add some mental illness into the mix where, possibly, there are already feelings of anger and loss and maybe we have something to look at here.

There is no question any of this is an excuse, but could it possibly be a contributing factor among dozens of other factors?

Here is my immediate take on that.

Females as a group are generally disadvantaged as far as safety and even opportunity.  Black students as a group (and other minorities as well) are generally disadvantaged also.  The messages you cite are to announce that the group(s) will not be disadvantaged there.  White males as a group are not disadvantaged in either school or society, so no such special message is necessary for them.  The problem arises for white males as individuals.  The individual may be bullied, or ostracized, or feel alienated, and any of those could create an issue, but that has to be addressed through the general "ALL are important..." rather than a specific protection which targets and seems to favor the already dominant group.    

I agree with you, but you are an adult with a fully developed brain.  You aren't a white male teenager who is looked at as some sort of predator when you simply ask a girl out, looked at as a racist if you have a disagreement with a student who isn't white, can't let anyone know you believe in God for fear you'll be called out for offending the non-believers, etc.  I'm not saying any of that is true.  I'm just asking if their perception may be that it's true.  This mother certainly felt that way and worries that her son is invisible and nobody cares what happens to him.  He isn't "special" in any way that deserves anybody giving him a second glance.  It's something to think about. 

[steff]

Feb 15, 2018 15:39:31 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Feb 15, 2018 15:35:36 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Nobody said that. Nobody at all except you.

You can keep acting like a 3 year old at the dinner table who keeps saying the same swear word hoping that somebody will pay attention to you, but that somebody isn't going to be me.

Trump shouldn't even be in this conversation.  People who want to actually solve the problems know that.  People who use this forum to "ROTFLAO" and spit the same cussword over and over obviously don't. 

You do know that he is the one who did away with the regulations on people with mental health issues not being able to purchase a gun right?    He is part of the conversation along with mental health issues. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 16:00:46 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Feb 14, 2018 22:08:19 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I am forced to wonder if the narrative would change if all of these disaffected shooters were targeting gun shows and conventions rather than schools?  Perhaps not, but let's have 18 of those shot up in six weeks and see what happens.   

Well remember the uproar when there were some congressmen shot at during trainig for some baseball game in June or July last year?  There were all sorts of prayers and well-wishes going to those affected. But there was also a big to do on improving security for the members of congress.

Just so no one misunderstands: I do not want any harm to come to any congress person, but why should they be treated better than our kids?  We need to improve the safety of everyone. The old saw of "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is more than a little deficient.  We need controls that separate certain people from these innocent guns.  And I know it won't stop every mass shooting but we have to start somwhere.

Nobody seems to find it strange that we need to renew our drivers license every couple of years. Why not a renewable gun permit? Driving without a DL guarantees me a ticket, so why not a penalty for carrying without a permit or an expired one?

Keep your prayers at home or in your church/synagogue/mosques/etc. and start dealing with the problem that needs to be dealt with.

Tell you what.  I'll keep my prayers at home when you start confining your offensive opinions to your home.  Otherwise, I'll pray whenever I want.  In fact, I just did it before I answer you.  I prayed that I could let this stupidity go without mention.  It didn't work.  Up until that part of your post, you had some good points.  Too bad your bigoted stance at the end negated it all.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 18:05:28 GMT -5 steff said:

Feb 15, 2018 15:39:31 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

You can keep acting like a 3 year old at the dinner table who keeps saying the same swear word hoping that somebody will pay attention to you, but that somebody isn't going to be me.

Trump shouldn't even be in this conversation.  People who want to actually solve the problems know that.  People who use this forum to "ROTFLAO" and spit the same cussword over and over obviously don't. 

You do know that he is the one who did away with the regulations on people with mental health issues not being able to purchase a gun right?    He is part of the conversation along with mental health issues. 

No, Steff. I just leave it up to you, the ultra-informed, to let me know. Had these shooting just commenced since he did that, you'd have a point. As it stands now, it's just noise.

[steff]

Now I remember why I don't like coming around here anymore.  

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2018 18:10:26 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Feb 15, 2018 18:05:28 GMT -5 steff said:

You do know that he is the one who did away with the regulations on people with mental health issues not being able to purchase a gun right?    He is part of the conversation along with mental health issues. 

No, Steff. I just leave it up to you, the ultra-informed, to let me know. Had these shooting just commenced since he did that, you'd have a point. As it stands now, it's just noise.

Prayer is also just noise.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 18:29:11 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Feb 15, 2018 18:10:26 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

No, Steff. I just leave it up to you, the ultra-informed, to let me know. Had these shooting just commenced since he did that, you'd have a point. As it stands now, it's just noise.

Prayer is also just noise.

There you go again! Cussing at the table hoping to get some attention.

[tallguy]

Feb 15, 2018 18:05:28 GMT -5 steff said:

Feb 15, 2018 15:39:31 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

You can keep acting like a 3 year old at the dinner table who keeps saying the same swear word hoping that somebody will pay attention to you, but that somebody isn't going to be me.

Trump shouldn't even be in this conversation.  People who want to actually solve the problems know that.  People who use this forum to "ROTFLAO" and spit the same cussword over and over obviously don't. 

You do know that he is the one who did away with the regulations on people with mental health issues not being able to purchase a gun right?    He is part of the conversation along with mental health issues. 

Telling, isn't it, that he signed that one with no press or photo op.  For someone as addicted to attention as he is, that is tantamount to saying, "Yeah, I know everyone will think this sucks, but the NRA wants it, so...." 

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2018 18:31:08 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Feb 15, 2018 18:29:11 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Prayer is also just noise.

There you go again! Cussing at the table hoping to get some attention.

Lol! I don't think you know what cussing means.
I do know this. You're allowed to say peoples' opinions are just noise, but god forbid someone say the same thing back to you. Then you get all butthurt.

Prayer never solved anything. If it did, there would be no more school shootings with all these "thoughts and prayers" going out.