Parkland, FL school shooting

[tallguy]

Feb 15, 2018 1:29:48 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

"A good start would be allowing the CDC to study why this keeps on happening. We are the only industrialized nation where this happens on a regular basis. Why is that? Let's find out. Let our Congress fund the CDC to study why we are such a violent society and why mass murders are only getting worse and more frequent. Don't threaten the CDC with withholding funds for research if one is not happy with the study results."

Trump slashed the CDC budget which deals with mental health and HIV/Aids.
There's no money for mental health when we need a bigly wall.

More to the point though, Congress basically shut off CDC research into guns and gun violence in 1996.  It is not simply a mental-health issue.  They do not allow any research into guns and gun violence.  

[retread]

Feb 15, 2018 1:11:07 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Obviously Someone Above really doesn't care about our prayers.

I'm not sure I'd draw the same conclusion. Perhaps the only "obvious" takeaway is that Someone Above is allowing free will to determine our future rather than an intervention.

And yes, these shooters seem to be dead inside and have no problem in taking out others to make the murdered loved ones feel as bad as the killer does.

I really don't know what goes on in the mind of a killer. Are they trying to impose what they're feeling on the loved ones of other or is the act killing itself somehow the goal in displaying their desperation?

A good start would be allowing the CDC to study why this keeps on happening.

That has a better chance of success than gun laws would. But the CDC is a bloated bureaucracy link any other government-funded institution. Progress will be slow at best. And we pretty much know why this is happening. It's because our society and the media has focused on self-gratification rather than the greater purpose of people helping each other. The question is, how to affect change.

We are the only industrialized nation where this happens on a regular basis.

'Only' might be a bit of an overstatement. We certainly have more than our fair share. But I'm pretty sure we have at least some company.

There's a fairly long list here:
www.infoplease.com/us/crime/timeline-worldwide-school-and-mass-shootings


Interesting to note the appearance of several other countries early in that list. But mostly just the US in more recent history. There might be something useful in that observation. Idk.


One of the biggest products the US exports is music and entertainment. And it's mostly trash. The stuff we consume at home is even worse. The sixties were a time of change, for better or worse. There was plenty of silliness and there was some trash then too. But there were also songs that affected people at the most basic human level with messages worth repeating. What messages are we hearing in pop music today?







Music alone can't fix societal problems. But it can affect our environment and attitudes. We desperately need messages like this to permeate our environment. The talent is here in greater abundance than ever before. But we just aren't hearing the right messages beneath the music.

[Shooby]

The same people who want gun control balk at having armed security or police in schools.

[Spellbound454]

We don't have the general public having guns ....but if someone is known to be armed in a public place... these armed response teams seem to rapidly appear out of nowhere to kill the assailant.

I suppose the danger may be in the early minutes before the threat is neutralised but it must save loads of lives in that there isn't nearly as many random shootings in the first place.

As for security in School we have lockdown procedures to stall until the response teams arrive.

Our school shooting at Dunblane over 20 years ago, where 17, 5 year olds and their teacher were killed ....Just broke our hearts.

If Sandy Hook couldn't solve the School killings problem ....then nothing can....I'm afraid.

[Shooby]

  You can't walk into to other businesses or agencies without passing people who are going to question you or take note.  We protect our money with guns.  We protect courtrooms with guns.  We have security at major events.  We need one entrance and exit.   How do most of these killers get there in the first place?  Do they drive a car onto school grounds or are they walking in from a secluded area.  Once they are on school grounds, would a watchful eye have seen someone walking with a gun or an attempt to have something concealed?  How are they gaining entrance into the school?  Through the front doors or side entraces, etc?  All of this needs to be studied and procedures need to be put in place. 

[thyme4change]

School shootings aside, we have more gun violence than every other "first world" nation. The number of deaths prevented by a good guy with a gun rounds to zero when compared to the number of gun deaths we have.

[Shooby]

Funny because i am talking about this on another board and they are adamantly against having armed security in school.  OK?  Yes, we can make another gun law. Yes, we can teach kids compassion and we should do all of those things. But, it takes seconds to walk in with a gun and end lives. So, why are we OK with security at sporting events, the airport, courtrooms, etc but not for our children? Guess I dont' understand that line of thinking.

[Spellbound454]

Meanwhile ...the elephant in the room ....Why are you letting unbalanced teenagers have AK 47s ?

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 14, 2018 21:36:06 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Feb 14, 2018 21:27:04 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

School shootings are a drop in the proverbial bucket of violence that happens every year in the US. These highly publicized mass shootings make up only a small fraction of that drop.

Federal gun control affects the lives of tens of millions of Americans. School shootings theoretically preventable by gun control affect a few dozen victims each year and their families. There's six orders of magnitude difference to consider.

Either way you look at it, events like this shooting aren't significant enough to justify policy changes, which is why America will never accept them as justification for policy changes. If you want to reduce the number of shootings, it will have to be through instilling a love of pacifism and abhorrence of violence in your countrymen, not gun prohibitions. Think of prohibitions like "The War on Drugs".

I sincerely doubt that would be your reaction if that "drop" were your child!!!

Should my loved ones come to be slaughtered by a violent gunman, my enduring hope is that, God willing, I'll react to it the exact same way as the victims' families in the West Nickel Mines School shooting.

If I don't react this way, it's because I'm out of my mind with grief and rage, and my desires at that point should by no means be used as the basis to establish national policy.

[Spellbound454]

Whats all this reliance on  "thoughts and prayers" everywhere ?

You need plans-of-action and decent policy...... as befits a sophisticated Western Country.

Not prayers.

I get the impression that people aren't shocked ....because this sort of thing is so common place.

You should be shocked.

DT says that youngsters should not be afraid to be in School.

Well they are...because they are getting killed
So what are you going to do about it...... apart from "thoughts and prayers" that is.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 14, 2018 23:25:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

As much as you want to attack Virgil Showlion the messenger, it does not change the fact we live in a culture that killing is an acceptable answer to thwarted desire.

Precisely.

We live in a culture absolutely marinated in crass sexuality and violence, and yet we marvel as the susceptible elements of our society run rampant living out their dark fantasies.

The US finds itself in the regrettable situation of having always treasured the right to bear arms. Regrettable not because guns are inherently evil, but because the US Founders couldn't have predicted there'd come a time when the Western world would lose its collective mind--a regression with particularly grave repercussions in a nation where firearms are ever-present.

Don't get me wrong: school shootings may be a proverbial drop in the bucket, but the total carnage caused by misuse of all firearms in the US is not. There exists a strong prima facie case for gun control. Even so, two damnable caveats:

1. The only controls that will meaningfully reduce gun fatalities in the US are like to those implemented in Canada and Australia, i.e. total bans on anything other than long guns, and punishing restrictions on long guns.
   
   
2. Instituting the controls in (1) without also changing Americans' hearts and minds, and your cultural love of guns, will end in bloody disaster. Thousands of dead and a near-immediate reversal of the ban at best; civil war at worst. Anyone who denies this is deluding themselves.
   

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 9:15:48 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Whats all this reliance on  "thoughts and prayers" everywhere ?

You need plans-of-action and decent policy...... as befits a sophisticated Western Country.

Not prayers.

I get the impression that people aren't shocked ....because this sort of thing is so common place.

You should be shocked.

DT says that youngsters should not be afraid to be in School.

Well they are...because they are getting killed
So what are you going to do about it...... apart from "thoughts and prayers" that is.

People commit suicide on subways every year. It's a regrettable fact of metropolitan life.

Suicide is often a spontaneous act, and at various times and places people have proposed erecting "safety walls" and "safety fences" on subway platforms to discourage suicide and save lives.

These proposals are nearly always rejected. The costs are weighed against the benefits, the former is found to be greater, and the "decent policy" is to do nothing.

Even so, the families of suicide victims and people who might otherwise have been saved by safety walls are still deeply hurting. To a religious man sympathizing with the pain of a fellow human being, his thoughts represent his acknowledgement of the grief felt by the persons affected, his prayers are for God to help these people heal quickly and fully (without trauma), and the expression of "Our thoughts and prayers...", if sincere, is his desire to make known his sympathy.

Over the years, "Our thoughts and prayers..." has also turned into a perfunctory courtesy for those who aren't sincere. Politicians are expected to say something in the wake of tragedies that receive national attention, even if they don't believe policy should be changed. Since "I don't think policy should be changed." and "Let's keep these shootings in perspective and not make rash policy decisions." are political suicide, they defer to "Our thoughts and prayers...".

It may be sincere in some cases, but I imagine it's typically the equivalent of "No comment.", which is both reasonable and acceptable.

[Spellbound454]

If I lived in the Ozarks.......half a day away from any kind of effective Law enforcement....... I'd probably want a gun too.

....but this kid lived in a Town....... and had a whole arsenal of weapons with which to frighten his peers.
He was known to the FBI and his friends thought he was just the type of kid to do this thing.

All the authorities could manage.... was to tell him to keep his weapons locked up.....ppfft.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

He was known to the FBI and his friends thought he was just the type of kid to do this thing.

But you can't arrest people for what they MIGHT do.   You can't take people's stuff based on what they MIGHT do.    There are flavors of crazy and you don't know which one you're dealing with till something happens.   We can't start locking up or forcing treatment on people who haven't done anything wrong.   That's not the type of society I want to live in.

Hindsight is a bitch but not something we can make policy on.

[happyhoix]

Roughly 90% of Americans, including most gun owners, want restrictions on the purchase of these kinds of weapons.

It's not like people hunt quail or antelope with them.

We've had 30 mass shootings in this country as of 2/14.  www.abc15.com/news/data/mass-shootings-in-the-us-when-where-they-have-occurred-in-2018 Not all of them with this kind of gun. And sure, people get killed every day with weapons other than guns. But if we at least eliminate the mass shootings caused by people with the kind of gun this kid used, wouldn't that be a start?

We're supposed to be a democracy, supposedly the majority rules, and if 90% of us want to restrict access to these kinds of guns, then we need to do it, and Congress needs to get some balls and fuck the NRA.

[Tiny]

Feb 15, 2018 9:15:48 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Whats all this reliance on  "thoughts and prayers" everywhere ?

You need plans-of-action and decent policy...... as befits a sophisticated Western Country.

Not prayers.

I get the impression that people aren't shocked ....because this sort of thing is so common place.

You should be shocked.

DT says that youngsters should not be afraid to be in School.

Well they are...because they are getting killed
So what are you going to do about it...... apart from "thoughts and prayers" that is.

 "Thoughts and Prayers" is an expression of helplessness.   When there's nothing that can be done or that you can do but you feel the need to feel like you've done something you offer "your thoughts and prayers".      In some social situations this expression is OK and appropriate, because it's everyone's understanding that nothing can be done (like when someone is terminally ill or someone has died a somewhat natural death).  

But, when it's offered when something obviously COULD be done and NEEDS to be done,  it's rather insulting I think. 

  

[MJ2.0]

once again, this is not a GUN problem - it's a MENTAL HEALTH problem.  Unless we step up our support of mental health studies and research, this is just "same shit different day" stuff and will continue to be so.  Of course it is heartbreaking.  It's even more heartbreaking that we as a country refuse to put the funding into the research that can cut this sickness off before innocent people die.

[Spellbound454]

Hindsight is a bitch but not something we can make policy on.

Its a bit more than that though.

Nikolas Cruz, who has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder, reportedly left a comment on a YouTube video last year stating: "I'm going to be a professional school shooter."

A user alerted authorities to the post.

Teachers were also warned about Mr Cruz, who was not allowed on campus with a backpack, US media report.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43071710

and yet he was allowed to keep his arsenal of weapons......as long as he kept them in a cupboard? Really?

once again, this is not a GUN problem - it's a MENTAL HEALTH problem.

School shootings on this scale happen nowhere else in the World..... and yet all countries have people with mental health problems.

The only variable here is the free availability of assault weapons to those with mental health problem.

Never mind gun rights....What about the rights of those dead kids and grieving families?

Don't they have a right to life?

[midjd]

I don't think it's a gun or a mental health problem. It's a cultural problem. Otherwise the perpetrators would be far more diverse (since mental health issues and gun ownership/access are not limited to one race or gender). There are so many school shootings that don't (or barely) make the news that I can't say with certainty that none of the shooters have been female or non-white, but if they have been, it's a minuscule percentage.

Obviously if someone thinks spraying bullets is an appropriate response to [whatever], they've got some other stuff going on upstairs, but IMO characterizing these mass shootings as an offshoot of our failure to treat mental health problems just further stigmatizes depression, anxiety, BPD, etc. and makes it less likely that people will seek help. Nobody wants to risk being put on a "list." 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Feb 15, 2018 11:16:44 GMT -5 midjd said:

I don't think it's a gun or a mental health problem. It's a cultural problem. Otherwise the perpetrators would be far more diverse (since mental health issues are not limited to one race or gender). There are so many school shootings that don't (or barely) make the news that I can't say with certainty that none of the shooters have been female or non-white, but if they have been, it's a minuscule percentage.

Obviously if someone thinks spraying bullets is an appropriate response to [whatever], they've got some other stuff going on upstairs, but IMO characterizing these mass shootings as an offshoot of our failure to treat mental health problems just further stigmatizes depression, anxiety, BPD, etc. and makes it less likely that people will seek help. Nobody wants to risk being put on a "list." 

It would make sense to lift the ban on gun research.  You can't figure out a pattern without being able to first analyze the data.   You can't create policy or enact change if you don't know what it is you are trying to policy to begin with.

Unfortunately that's not how our government works.  The NRA is so terrified of findings that go against their message they will spend every penny they have to make sure politicians toe the party line.

[Spellbound454]

18th US School shooting this year.......... and we are only halfway through February. Its not normal.

[Spellbound454]

DT s talking at the moment ..."comfort for the grieving, young people with wonderous lives ahead of them, American family, never alone.... seen the tears and I will heal you"

"We are going to make a difference"

Like What?

Not a single mention of anything that might actually stop it happening again....and again


Throw that man a banana. Its just not good enough.

[MJ2.0]

Feb 15, 2018 11:16:44 GMT -5 midjd said:

I don't think it's a gun or a mental health problem. It's a cultural problem. Otherwise the perpetrators would be far more diverse (since mental health issues and gun ownership/access are not limited to one race or gender). There are so many school shootings that don't (or barely) make the news that I can't say with certainty that none of the shooters have been female or non-white, but if they have been, it's a minuscule percentage.

Obviously if someone thinks spraying bullets is an appropriate response to [whatever], they've got some other stuff going on upstairs, but IMO characterizing these mass shootings as an offshoot of our failure to treat mental health problems just further stigmatizes depression, anxiety, BPD, etc. and makes it less likely that people will seek help. Nobody wants to risk being put on a "list." 

I do think it's cultural as well.  And I'm not trying to stigmatize the mentally ill.  I'm saying no one goes from perfectly fine to being compelled to shoot a bunch of people overnight.  We do a horrible job with diagnosing and treating mental illness.  If doctors intervene at the first sign of issues, it should be more likely the affected person will get the right treatment and can live a relatively contented rest of their life without harm to themselves or others (of course this depends on the illness).

[MJ2.0]

Feb 15, 2018 11:21:58 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Feb 15, 2018 11:16:44 GMT -5 midjd said:

I don't think it's a gun or a mental health problem. It's a cultural problem. Otherwise the perpetrators would be far more diverse (since mental health issues are not limited to one race or gender). There are so many school shootings that don't (or barely) make the news that I can't say with certainty that none of the shooters have been female or non-white, but if they have been, it's a minuscule percentage.

Obviously if someone thinks spraying bullets is an appropriate response to [whatever], they've got some other stuff going on upstairs, but IMO characterizing these mass shootings as an offshoot of our failure to treat mental health problems just further stigmatizes depression, anxiety, BPD, etc. and makes it less likely that people will seek help. Nobody wants to risk being put on a "list." 

It would make sense to lift the ban on gun research.  You can't figure out a pattern without being able to first analyze the data.   You can't create policy or enact change if you don't know what it is you are trying to policy to begin with.

Unfortunately that's not how our government works.  The NRA is so terrified of findings that go against their message they will spend every penny they have to make sure politicians toe the party line.

just get rid of lobbies altogether.  That would solve most of the problems.

[hurley1980]

Feb 14, 2018 21:27:04 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 14, 2018 20:59:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Our thoughts and prayers are doing a fantastic job of ending mass shootings.  

School shootings are a drop in the proverbial bucket of violence that happens every year in the US. These highly publicized mass shootings make up only a small fraction of that drop.

Federal gun control affects the lives of tens of millions of Americans. School shootings theoretically preventable by gun control affect a few dozen victims each year and their families. There's six orders of magnitude difference to consider.

Either way you look at it, events like this shooting aren't significant enough to justify policy changes, which is why America will never accept them as justification for policy changes. If you want to reduce the number of shootings, it will have to be through instilling a love of pacifism and abhorrence of violence in your countrymen, not gun prohibitions. Think of prohibitions like "The War on Drugs".

ETA: If you can't wrap your mind around the above, follow grumpyhermit 's lead and don't let events like this perturb you. Thousands of Americans die horribly every day in the US from preventable accidents, abuse by their fellow man, and abuse of their own freedoms. It's good to be mindful of it, but we have to keep it at arm's length, lest it overwhelm us.

Okay, I am asking this because I really want to know what the difference is.  You say school shootings are a proverbial drop in the bucket, and aren't significant enough to justify change.  But attacks by ISIS or terrorists on American soil are also a proverbial drop in the bucket, but that didn't stop Trump from trying to enact a ban on Muslims. Violent crime by illegal immigrants is also a proverbial drop in the bucket, but that's not stopping Trump from trying to enact a wall.  So what makes one proverbial drop in the bucket more important than another? Is it because we think we can control the latter issues?  Because a ban and a wall aren't going to solve our terrorist or illegal immigrant problems any more than a ban on guns will.  I'm genuinely trying to understand the logic here.  I know I'll get shit for this, but hopefully someone will give me a reasonable answer.

[happyhoix]

Let's remove access to these kinds of guns and then debate whether the problem is cultural or mental health at our leisure.

"Let's change our culture" and "let's provide free, quality mental health treatment' are gigantic and nebulous issues with no easy solutions.

"let's make a list of weapons that aren't used for hunting or self defense and make them illegal" is fairly quick and easy to do, if we can get the NRA to get out of the way.

No, it won't solve the culture or mental health problem, and yes, people will still be murdering other people, just in different ways, BUT IT'S A START.

[happyhoix]

Feb 15, 2018 8:57:26 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Funny because i am talking about this on another board and they are adamantly against having armed security in school.  OK?  Yes, we can make another gun law. Yes, we can teach kids compassion and we should do all of those things. But, it takes seconds to walk in with a gun and end lives. So, why are we OK with security at sporting events, the airport, courtrooms, etc but not for our children? Guess I dont' understand that line of thinking.

Who picks up the tab for the training, uniforms, several shifts of officers at each door to each school in your county?

Our school almost had to cut out providing busses a couple years ago. Maybe we eliminate the janitorial and lunch lady staff so we can provide the armed guards at every portal?

Maybe the NRA will help out by providing one free submachine gun per school per county.

[retread]

Feb 15, 2018 10:49:00 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

once again, this is not a GUN problem - it's a MENTAL HEALTH problem.  Unless we step up our support of mental health studies and research, this is just "same shit different day" stuff and will continue to be so.  Of course it is heartbreaking.  It's even more heartbreaking that we as a country refuse to put the funding into the research that can cut this sickness off before innocent people die.

I don't disagree with you, but in my opinion we're still looking at the effect rather than the cause.

In my opinion it's a societal problem.  We are, to a great extent, a product of our environment.  And if even a tiny fraction of what are environment produces is something like this, our environment needs a change.

What research do we need to recognize that as a society, our values have gone out of kilter?  Certainly some good can come from fixing those who are starting to go bad before they reach the level of killing.  But that's still a repair, not the long-term solution.

In addition to addressing what's wrong we need to focus on nurturing what's inherently right instead of letting it whither away.

Life can and should be a wonderful experience.  Filled with joy as well as challenges to be met.  We have the greatest personal opportunities of any time in human history.  But what are we doing with those opportunities?

How do we as a society begin to recognize that life is temporary and we need to begin looking at the big picture as well our individual desires?  How do we get to the place where those who are most revered aren't the ones who have amassed the most personal wealth, but rather those who have spent their time and effort for the betterment of others around them?

Each and every one of us has opportunities every single day to make the world around us, a slightly better place.  Kindness and compassion are infectious.  They reward not only those receiving but also those who give.   When the basic everyday norm becomes courtesy and generosity, we'll be on our way to making this world a better place from the bottom up.

For decades we've spiraled down the path of looking at the world through ME eyes.  We need to move toward looking at the world as an US proposition.  And not as US vs THEM.  US means everyone.

Governments are a necessary evil but rarely an efficient solution to a problem.  People make the greatest changes in the world. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 10:45:06 GMT -5 Tiny said:

But, when it's offered when something obviously COULD be done and NEEDS to be done,  it's rather insulting I think.

Two tough but serious questions for you:

Suppose you're the mayor of a city. A group of 200 people--the parents of children and teenagers that died from complications with diabetes--are intractably convinced that banning three classes of vending machine will have a major impact in preventing child deaths due to diabetes in the city. They're petitioning you to enact the ban, which you have the power to do. They approach you and renew their demand every time another diabetic child in the city dies, each time insisting that something CAN be done and NEEDS to be done.

You vehemently disagree with this group. Not only are you skeptical that banning the vending machines will significantly curb child diabetes, you see a ban as depriving everyone in the city of enjoyment, convenience, and fundamental liberty.

Suddenly your phone rings. It's a reporter from a major newspaper. A popular child Internet star from your city has just passed away from complications due to diabetes, and her parents have joined together with the group of 200. They're on their way over to your office now. Would you like make a comment for the public record?

You realize you must say something, both to the reporter and to the parents of the dead child. The case is simply too high profile to avoid.

What do you say to the reporter?

What do you say to the parents and the group of 200?


If you don't consider this situation analogous to gun control, we'll get to that shortly. For now, I'd like to know how you (or anyone else who cares to answer) answer the above two questions. My thanks in advance for taking the exercise seriously.

[billisonboard]

Feb 15, 2018 13:21:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 15, 2018 10:45:06 GMT -5 Tiny said:

But, when it's offered when something obviously COULD be done and NEEDS to be done,  it's rather insulting I think.

Two tough but serious questions for you:

Suppose you're the mayor of a city. A group of 200 people--the parents of children and teenagers that died from complications with diabetes--are intractably convinced that banning three classes of vending machine will have a major impact in preventing child deaths due to diabetes in the city. They're petitioning you to enact the ban, which you have the power to do. They approach you and renew their demand every time another diabetic child in the city dies, each time insisting that something CAN be done and NEEDS to be done.

You vehemently disagree with this group. Not only are you skeptical that banning the vending machines will significantly curb child diabetes, you see a ban as depriving everyone in the city of enjoyment, convenience, and fundamental liberty.

Suddenly your phone rings. It's a reporter from a major newspaper. A popular child Internet star from your city has just passed away from complications due to diabetes, and her parents have joined together with the group of 200. They're on their way over to your office now. Would you like make a comment for the public record?

You realize you must say something, both to the reporter and to the parents of the dead child. The case is simply too high profile to avoid.

What do you say to the reporter?

What do you say to the parents and the group of 200?


If you don't consider this situation analogous to gun control, we'll get to that shortly. For now, I'd like to know how you (or anyone else who cares to answer) answer the above two questions. My thanks in advance for taking the exercise seriously.

Which of these do you mean?