AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 19, 2018 10:14:48 GMT -5
The fundamental disconnect between conservatives and liberals on immigration is worldview. The liberal worldview is that the United States' position in the world is unjust. We are an evil, white European colonialist / imperialist state that is too rich and since they believe in a zero sum game-- we're rich, so the rest of the world is dirt poor. They believe we are racist- white-supremacist, bigoted, etc. and ultimate answer to the injustice that is traditional American culture is to simply replace it. Swamp the indigenous culture with immigrants from shitholes who are predisposed to welfare handouts and strong-man style leadership (Doing what the fuck they're told). The aim of immigration for liberals is population replacement to shift the vote to the left and establish one-party rule. This cannot be argued since we've seen it in California. What most Americans don't realize is that there is no issue more important than immigration because Democrats know this is for all the marbles, and they are committed to making America a shithole. If you like California- vote Democrat. If you don't, you have no choice. You MUST vote Republican NO MATTER WHAT ELSE you disagree with, or what problems you have with the GOP. Period. ![](https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26841197_10215434170747258_6341517993595089144_o.jpg?oh=b27baad507f909eba4841e1e182fc329&oe=5AEB168D)
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 19, 2018 10:24:47 GMT -5
You probably aren't the best person to be explaining what the 'liberal view' is. I'm the same way with cars. I don't know anything about them and don't care to know. If someone asks me what kind of car I have, I usually say 'a gray one.' Which is why I don't pontificate about cars.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jan 19, 2018 10:40:09 GMT -5
An honest immigration discussion and you give the liberal view.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 19, 2018 10:42:52 GMT -5
The fundamental disconnect between conservatives and liberals on immigration is worldview. The liberal worldview is that the United States' position in the world is unjust. We are an evil, white European colonialist / imperialist state that is too rich and since they believe in a zero sum game-- we're rich, so the rest of the world is dirt poor. They believe we are racist- white-supremacist, bigoted, etc. and ultimate answer to the injustice that is traditional American culture is to simply replace it. Swamp the indigenous culture with immigrants from shitholes who are predisposed to welfare handouts and strong-man style leadership (Doing what the fuck they're told). The aim of immigration for liberals is population replacement to shift the vote to the left and establish one-party rule. This cannot be argued since we've seen it in California. What most Americans don't realize is that there is no issue more important than immigration because Democrats know this is for all the marbles, and they are committed to making America a shithole. If you like California- vote Democrat. If you don't, you have no choice. You MUST vote Republican NO MATTER WHAT ELSE you disagree with, or what problems you have with the GOP. Period. ![](https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26841197_10215434170747258_6341517993595089144_o.jpg?oh=b27baad507f909eba4841e1e182fc329&oe=5AEB168D) Great opening post to start "an honest immigration discussion". Insult the very people you supposedly wish to have an honest discussion with.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jan 19, 2018 10:46:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm a moderate, so I often agree with elements of both sides of an argument, and that OP was one of the most biased loads of bull hockey I've ever seen.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jan 19, 2018 10:52:14 GMT -5
There can not be an honest discussion until a decision is made to separate illegal and legal immigration and not treat them as equals by the opposing sides, imo.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jan 19, 2018 11:18:57 GMT -5
It's been a few years since I have visited California, but I don't think it has been that long.
My problem with Trump's vision of Immigration is that I know people who have immigrated here who were not educated when they got here, but they are now. To say that Immigrants from Non-White Countires will just go on welfare and that is their only desire is simply untrue.
My DH came here from Mexico. He has a BS in Education and about 1/2 his master's degree done. He has his own business, 4 employees and is in top 10% (adjusted gross) earners in the US. He has never been on welfare.
One of my Niece's will Marry a man from Africa this year. He is a naturalized citizen and a Nurse. I don't know for sure if he has ever been on welfare, but given his age, I am going to say it is doubtful. He has one brother in the US, the rest of his family is still in Africa (Zambia I think). While my niece was there last month, two of his sisters Graduated from College.
My Neighbors are from Poland - I am pretty sure her youngest son is on the Autism spectrum. Grandmother is from Poland and her boyfriend is from Germany. I assume she is here legally b/c she goes back and forth...but she does not need to work, she lives with her daughter and son-in-law and helps with the kids. He is in IT and travels a lot - even to Europe on business. She works for a local hospital system. She was a Radiation Technologist in Poland, she is not certified to do that here, but she works as a Medical Transcriptionist I think. The hospital system did a large lay off, and people with more senority than her were laid off, but they found a spot for her - she says she got more money and better hours and less hours in the transition. I believe her residency was granted as a family re-unification visa when she got married (She was here on a temporary visa when she met her husband).
DH's best friend is married to a woman from Poland. She had overstayed her visa when he met her. Her permanent residency was probably a family re-unification visa also. She has a Master's Degree, works for the Government in the state she lives in and is enrolled in Law School. Her parents spend about 6 months here and 6 months in Poland. When they are here, they drive the Grandkids back and forth to school and provide daycare. Their Son-in-law is a Partner and Owner of a large Company in a Major Metropolitan area.
I actually think a temporary agreement on the budget is a bad idea.
The Repbulicans are not negotiating in good faith. If they wanted to work in a bi-partisan manner, why did they not do that on the tax cut plan? It is the tax cut that they already granted that makes the budget process so difficult. Lots of things are important, yes I think Chip and Permanent protected status are important - but there are many important parts to the budget and to give one 6 years funding and not have decided on the others does not make sense.
Defense, SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Healthcare, National Parks, Law Enforcement, Homeland Security to name a few. They all need to be considered together.
Many republicans seem to have gone against what they have stood for many years - reducing the deficit and having a balance budget, to vote for the tax cut for the wealthy. They were bought with dark money IMHO or Blackmailed. Personally I think politics is rife with corruption right now, and American's best defense is to vote a slate of newbies into Congress no matter what your Party Affiliation is.
I see no reason why the Democrats should co-operate with the Republicans on this. They have little to gain and a lot to loose.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 11:22:38 GMT -5
The fundamental disconnect between conservatives and liberals on immigration is worldview. The liberal worldview is that the United States' position in the world is unjust. We are an evil, white European colonialist / imperialist state that is too rich and since they believe in a zero sum game-- we're rich, so the rest of the world is dirt poor. They believe we are racist- white-supremacist, bigoted, etc. and ultimate answer to the injustice that is traditional American culture is to simply replace it. Swamp the indigenous culture with immigrants from shitholes who are predisposed to welfare handouts and strong-man style leadership (Doing what the fuck they're told). The aim of immigration for liberals is population replacement to shift the vote to the left and establish one-party rule. This cannot be argued since we've seen it in California. What most Americans don't realize is that there is no issue more important than immigration because Democrats know this is for all the marbles, and they are committed to making America a shithole. If you like California- vote Democrat. If you don't, you have no choice. You MUST vote Republican NO MATTER WHAT ELSE you disagree with, or what problems you have with the GOP. Period. ![](https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26841197_10215434170747258_6341517993595089144_o.jpg?oh=b27baad507f909eba4841e1e182fc329&oe=5AEB168D) Great opening post to start "an honest immigration discussion". Insult the very people you supposedly wish to have an honest discussion with. there is so much lying in the OP i don't have time to dissect it. have fun with your "honest discussion".
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 19, 2018 12:10:39 GMT -5
It needs to go back to the way it was. You need to be healthy and not become a public charge. Plus, you need to be here legally. Go through the immigration process the way others did before you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 12:14:14 GMT -5
Oh yay, more delusional pontification and narcissistic gaslighting...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 19, 2018 12:15:30 GMT -5
It needs to go back to the way it was. You need to be healthy and not become a public charge. Plus, you need to be here legally. Go through the immigration process the way others did before you. It still is that way for legal immigrants.
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dee27
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Post by dee27 on Jan 19, 2018 12:24:27 GMT -5
We will never have an honest discussion until we agree that illegal and legal immigration are two different issues.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jan 19, 2018 12:48:54 GMT -5
It still is that way for legal immigrants. except for the diversity visa program that needs to go away Does it need to go away, or does it need to be changed? I really don't know that much about it. What harm is there in an honest discussion?
Why do I see so little about birthright citizenship too? I think that needs to change, but I am sure my DH strongly disagrees with me. And changing it, and then having children of illegal immigrants in the same position today's DACA recipients are in does not seem like a good option either. Reading that China and Russia are facilitating their citizens to come here on visas and have their babies so that they have birthright citizenship concerns me though. What other countries are doing it, and what kind of risk does that put us at?
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dondub
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The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Jan 19, 2018 13:16:22 GMT -5
Dear certain poster,
F your hat.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Jan 19, 2018 13:35:27 GMT -5
The fundamental disconnect between conservatives and liberals on immigration is worldview. The liberal worldview is that the United States' position in the world is unjust. We are an evil, white European colonialist / imperialist state that is too rich and since they believe in a zero sum game-- we're rich, so the rest of the world is dirt poor. They believe we are racist- white-supremacist, bigoted, etc. and ultimate answer to the injustice that is traditional American culture is to simply replace it. Swamp the indigenous culture with immigrants from shitholes who are predisposed to welfare handouts and strong-man style leadership (Doing what the fuck they're told). The aim of immigration for liberals is population replacement to shift the vote to the left and establish one-party rule. This cannot be argued since we've seen it in California. What most Americans don't realize is that there is no issue more important than immigration because Democrats know this is for all the marbles, and they are committed to making America a shithole. If you like California- vote Democrat. If you don't, you have no choice. You MUST vote Republican NO MATTER WHAT ELSE you disagree with, or what problems you have with the GOP. Period. ![](https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26841197_10215434170747258_6341517993595089144_o.jpg?oh=b27baad507f909eba4841e1e182fc329&oe=5AEB168D) Don't agree but willing to be educated but not just by a posters opinion..which over time , except for one biggie..win, is off the charts...always provocative and most important...WRONG. Got some links for your blather?
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Jan 19, 2018 13:37:53 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm a moderate, so I often agree with elements of both sides of an argument, and that OP was one of the most biased loads of bull hockey I've ever seen. Seems a lot of posters agree with u...
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2018 14:24:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm a moderate, so I often agree with elements of both sides of an argument, and that OP was one of the most biased loads of bull hockey I've ever seen. Hard to see how an honest discussion can result when you start out with all false statements. I mean, there should have been one truth in there somewhere even if it was by accident.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jan 19, 2018 14:25:14 GMT -5
except for the diversity visa program that needs to go away Does it need to go away, or does it need to be changed? I really don't know that much about it. What harm is there in an honest discussion?
Why do I see so little about birthright citizenship too? I think that needs to change, but I am sure my DH strongly disagrees with me. And changing it, and then having children of illegal immigrants in the same position today's DACA recipients are in does not seem like a good option either. Reading that China and Russia are facilitating their citizens to come here on visas and have their babies so that they have birthright citizenship concerns me though. What other countries are doing it, and what kind of risk does that put us at?
I think eliminating birthright citizenship puts us in the danger of creating a permanent underclass. However I could support something to end citizenship tourism, like requiring the parents to reside in the US for a certain length of time in order for the child to become a citizen by birth. The main problem is I don't trust the politicians to mess around with citizenship requirements, because who knows what we would end up with?
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hurley1980
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I am all that is wrong with the world....don't get too close, I'm contagious.
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Post by hurley1980 on Jan 19, 2018 14:30:18 GMT -5
"Can We Have An Honest Immigration Discussion? "
Not with an OP like that! Do you actually know any liberals in real life? I have a feeling you don't.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2018 14:40:14 GMT -5
Does it need to go away, or does it need to be changed? I really don't know that much about it. What harm is there in an honest discussion?
Why do I see so little about birthright citizenship too? I think that needs to change, but I am sure my DH strongly disagrees with me. And changing it, and then having children of illegal immigrants in the same position today's DACA recipients are in does not seem like a good option either. Reading that China and Russia are facilitating their citizens to come here on visas and have their babies so that they have birthright citizenship concerns me though. What other countries are doing it, and what kind of risk does that put us at?
I think eliminating birthright citizenship puts us in the danger of creating a permanent underclass. However I could support something to end citizenship tourism, like requiring the parents to reside in the US for a certain length of time in order for the child to become a citizen by birth. The main problem is I don't trust the politicians to mess around with citizenship requirements, because who knows what we would end up with? I'm missing the connection. If the parents are here legally but are not citizens, the child would also be here legally but not a citizen. They can still work and improve their lives. If the parents are here illegally they should be removed and the child with them. Doing otherwise rewards illegal behavior. American citizenship is still treasured throughout most of the world. It should not be granted merely because someone was able to sneak in and stay. And I STILL contend that our current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegals was based on a misinterpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court. It should be reversed.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jan 19, 2018 14:40:46 GMT -5
The fundamental disconnect between conservatives and liberals on immigration is worldview. The liberal worldview is that the United States' position in the world is unjust. We are an evil, white European colonialist / imperialist state that is too rich and since they believe in a zero sum game-- we're rich, so the rest of the world is dirt poor. They believe we are racist- white-supremacist, bigoted, etc. and ultimate answer to the injustice that is traditional American culture is to simply replace it. Swamp the indigenous culture with immigrants from shitholes who are predisposed to welfare handouts and strong-man style leadership (Doing what the fuck they're told). The aim of immigration for liberals is population replacement to shift the vote to the left and establish one-party rule. This cannot be argued since we've seen it in California. What most Americans don't realize is that there is no issue more important than immigration because Democrats know this is for all the marbles, and they are committed to making America a shithole. If you like California- vote Democrat. If you don't, you have no choice. You MUST vote Republican NO MATTER WHAT ELSE you disagree with, or what problems you have with the GOP. Period. ![](https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26841197_10215434170747258_6341517993595089144_o.jpg?oh=b27baad507f909eba4841e1e182fc329&oe=5AEB168D) Attempt at honest conversation: FAIL!!!
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jan 19, 2018 15:05:57 GMT -5
I think eliminating birthright citizenship puts us in the danger of creating a permanent underclass. However I could support something to end citizenship tourism, like requiring the parents to reside in the US for a certain length of time in order for the child to become a citizen by birth. The main problem is I don't trust the politicians to mess around with citizenship requirements, because who knows what we would end up with? I'm missing the connection. If the parents are here legally but are not citizens, the child would also be here legally but not a citizen. They can still work and improve their lives. If the parents are here illegally they should be removed and the child with them. Doing otherwise rewards illegal behavior. American citizenship is still treasured throughout most of the world. It should not be granted merely because someone was able to sneak in and stay. And I STILL contend that our current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegals was based on a misinterpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court. It should be reversed. The connection is that the children of the illegals are unlikely to be deported, so they would be born and live their entire lives in a society where they don't have rights. This could potentially be carried over to multiple generations where they don't even have any connection to the "home" country.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Jan 19, 2018 15:18:23 GMT -5
I'm missing the connection. If the parents are here legally but are not citizens, the child would also be here legally but not a citizen. They can still work and improve their lives. If the parents are here illegally they should be removed and the child with them. Doing otherwise rewards illegal behavior. American citizenship is still treasured throughout most of the world. It should not be granted merely because someone was able to sneak in and stay. And I STILL contend that our current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegals was based on a misinterpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court. It should be reversed. The connection is that the children of the illegals are unlikely to be deported, so they would be born and live their entire lives in a society where they don't have rights. This could potentially be carried over to multiple generations where they don't even have any connection to the "home" country. "And I STILL contend that our current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegals was based on a misinterpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court. It should be reversed." point is...u are the same as I...just a private citizen and your contending and mine means squat..nada...nothing. Supreme Court, from what I understand does NOT take in account in it's judicial decisions what some one like u and I feel, believe...It's how they read the intent in the constitution...or at least how I believe the system is supposed to works...
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jan 19, 2018 15:23:18 GMT -5
"strong-man style leadership (Doing what the fuck they're told)." How funny is this given who is our President, and why he fires people? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rofl.gif) Its like a textbook example of irony. An example of shitty thinking which I will now call shithole thinking.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 19, 2018 15:29:51 GMT -5
Wake up call for : AgeOfEnlightenmentSCPAn honest discussion cannot be had when the opening post to the discussion tells others what they believe, what they should believe, what they know and don't know, and what they MUST do. Furthermore, no disussion can be had when one of the premises is "This cannot be argued...". You shot yourself in the foot on this one, I'm afraid. I'm surprised you got any responses, to tell you the truth.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 15:34:12 GMT -5
I think eliminating birthright citizenship puts us in the danger of creating a permanent underclass. However I could support something to end citizenship tourism, like requiring the parents to reside in the US for a certain length of time in order for the child to become a citizen by birth. The main problem is I don't trust the politicians to mess around with citizenship requirements, because who knows what we would end up with? I'm missing the connection. If the parents are here legally but are not citizens, the child would also be here legally but not a citizen. They can still work and improve their lives. If the parents are here illegally they should be removed and the child with them. Doing otherwise rewards illegal behavior. American citizenship is still treasured throughout most of the world. It should not be granted merely because someone was able to sneak in and stay. And I STILL contend that our current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegals was based on a misinterpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court. It should be reversed. one might suspect that the votes are there to do that. until that time, however, the law of the land is USC8.1401, which specifies very clearly that Ted Cruz is a US Citizen. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/smile.gif)
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dondub
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The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Jan 19, 2018 15:36:21 GMT -5
He's Canadian!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2018 15:43:48 GMT -5
The connection is that the children of the illegals are unlikely to be deported, so they would be born and live their entire lives in a society where they don't have rights. This could potentially be carried over to multiple generations where they don't even have any connection to the "home" country. "And I STILL contend that our current policy of birthright citizenship for the children of illegals was based on a misinterpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court. It should be reversed." point is...u are the same as I...just a private citizen and your contending and mine means squat..nada...nothing. Supreme Court, from what I understand does NOT take in account in it's judicial decisions what some one like u and I feel, believe...It's how they read the intent in the constitution...or at least how I believe the system is supposed to works... The Court erred. It has before and will again. Deal with it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 19, 2018 15:46:54 GMT -5
Immigrants do the jobs Americans refuse to do........like sleeping with Donald J Trump.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jan 19, 2018 15:48:56 GMT -5
Wake up call for : AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP An honest discussion cannot be had when the opening post to the discussion tells others what they believe, what they should believe, what they know and don't know, and what they MUST do. Furthermore, no disussion can be had when one of the premises is "This cannot be argued...". You shot yourself in the foot on this one, I'm afraid. I'm surprised you got any responses, to tell you the truth. I usually ignore him and there are times he gets few responses. BTW he hasn't been back.
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