swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Sept 7, 2017 10:58:48 GMT -5
From Swamp's linked article, my favorite phrase was about the "plague" of hot pants and halter tops. Most churches are struggling a lot more with the plague of declining membership as fewer and fewer young people join and the older members die off. IMHO, Jesus wouldn't have cared about what his followers wore to a service and if churches want to stop the decline in membership, they might want to re-examine their attitudes about how to be inclusive and welcoming. that's exactly what i was thinking, but i didn't want the trhead immediately moved over to the religious thread wasteland.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 7, 2017 10:59:46 GMT -5
Yes, some frozen breast milk or formula to be used in a bottle is very helpful to have around as needed. But the breast of a breastfeeding mother fills with milk and the milk needs to come out and fairly often, if not in church, then the park, or the store, or the restaurant, or the other public place, etc, etc, etc. And pumping milk to save for bottles is not the most pleasant thing to do so the more often a mother can feed directly, usually the better. Archie the expert! If the baby started crying, the mother could begin to leak breast milk and wet the front of her shirt or dress. And then you never know when the baby will be awake and want to eat. So to prepare a bottle of breast milk, and then not use it would be a waste, especially if you are short on supply. I think you can fairly easily be discreet so that most people will not even notice. That is what I did in public places. My wife was the expert, I was just the casual observer.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 7, 2017 11:02:10 GMT -5
Why would you want to lug around bottles, prepping by pumping, when you've got your boobs right there and ready to go? That's exactly what they were designed to do! That said, I would at least cover up if I were nursing.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 7, 2017 11:04:37 GMT -5
I support breastfeeding, but how you do it, IMHO, is important. A number of years back, I was visiting the church I grew up at, and a very well endowed woman just whipped out her very large breast in the middle of church, & started nursing her child. Now, if she'd attempted to cover her breast I would have no problem, but she just "let it all hang out", and judging by the number of men staring, I doubt they were focused on the sermon, if you get my drift. We had a mom once that was breastfeeding her kid during mass. No cover. No biggie. Then her kid popped off the breast, and the mom didn't notice for a while..we're talking a couple of minutes while. I remember thinking.."oh, that's an interesting shape for a breast." Not that I'm a breast connoisseur..but when you do see a breast just hanging out in church...it can be noticeable...Just like there was an older dad that always brought his kids to 8am mass to likely give his wife a break. One of his kids was dressed in Halloween costumes for the kids first year or so of life. I mean, you tend to notice something like that, and then move on. I took the girls out to the park the other day and there was a mom breastfeeding a 3 week only with no cover. No biggie. We did get to see the baby all milk drunk, which was pretty awesome. I had forgotten about that stage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 11:07:05 GMT -5
Why would you want to lug around bottles, prepping by pumping, when you've got your boobs right there and ready to go? That's exactly what they were designed to do! That said, I would at least cover up if I were nursing. Raising babies is exhausting enough. Why add more to it? That was one of my favorite things about breastfeeding...it was just so damn convenient and simple. But yeah, really no reason to not be discreet about it either. I've got large breasts and I wasn't whipping them out in church (or anywhere) to nurse. I always carried blankets to drape over the baby and they make really light weight ones so it's not like they can't be used in the summer too.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 7, 2017 11:07:30 GMT -5
Since it is a money board, I'm surprised that nobody's brought up the issue of how expensive decent breast pumps are. My youngest is 13 now, so maybe it's changed but when he was a baby the least expensive breast pump that actually worked worth a darn started at $300. For a family with a SAHS, that's a lot of money to spend so they may not even have a pump.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 7, 2017 11:07:46 GMT -5
As far as dad's helping it is what it is when you breastfeed. Sometimes it works to give them bottles, sometimes it doesn't. DH helped me in other ways such as getting me food, water, putting the kids back to bed/getting them and being a desperately needed second set of hands. He was also my emotional support, there to cheer me when I succeeded and be my shoulder to cry on when the stress got to me.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Sept 7, 2017 11:09:01 GMT -5
My niece had to breast feed her daughter because of down syndrome. They say the baby had low muscle tone and needed the face exercise. Bottle feeding even once would make her want the easier food. She had failure to thrive and had to be returned to the hospital as a new born. If she needed to be fed she should be fed even when in public. She is a high school senior now, thriving just fine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 11:10:05 GMT -5
Since it is a money board, I'm surprised that nobody's brought up the issue of how expensive decent breast pumps are. My youngest is 13 now, so maybe it's changed but when he was a baby the least expensive breast pump that actually worked worth a darn started at $300. For a family with a SAHS, that's a lot of money to spend so they may not even have a pump. Insurance pays for them now. I had to buy mine when my first was born and I couldn't give it away after I was done with it 8 years later because everyone was getting them for free. My daycare lady ended up taking it though because the ones they have now are a lot cheaper and hers broke. Mine was a heavy duty hospital grade.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 7, 2017 11:10:25 GMT -5
...Just like there was an older dad that always brought his kids to 8am mass to likely give his wife a break. One of his kids was dressed in Halloween costumes for the kids first year or so of life. I mean, you tend to notice something like that, and then move on. .... DS2 wore his Darth Vader costume for over a year - think it was when he was 3-4. And yes, he wore it everywhere including church. It made him very happy and wasn't a battle I thought was worth fighting. After all, wouldn't Jesus want a shot at converting a Dark Sith Lord as well?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 11:11:20 GMT -5
As far as dad's helping it is what it is when you breastfeed. Sometimes it works to give them bottles, sometimes it doesn't. DH helped me in other ways such as getting me food, water, putting the kids back to bed/getting them and being a desperately needed second set of hands. He was also my emotional support, there to cheer me when I succeeded and be my shoulder to cry on when the stress got to me. LOL I always figured I had the easy job. I got to sit on the couch while watching TV and feed the baby. He would clean and make dinner.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 7, 2017 11:11:50 GMT -5
Since it is a money board, I'm surprised that nobody's brought up the issue of how expensive decent breast pumps are. My youngest is 13 now, so maybe it's changed but when he was a baby the least expensive breast pump that actually worked worth a darn started at $300. For a family with a SAHS, that's a lot of money to spend so they may not even have a pump. Since this is a money board I'll point out you can buy used pumps. You'll need to buy new parts but the set runs anywhere fro $40-$100 depending on the brand of pump. Way cheaper than the unit itself. Basically you just void the warranty if you buy a used pump. If you're buying new tubes and stuff there is no need to worry about contamination. They go FAST though. Took me three tries before I snagged a nearly new Medela Pump In Style for $85 off Ebay. Insurance does not always pay for them, you need to make sure you read the fine print. BCBS covers breast pumps but my particular policy does not. UNMC was grandfathered in when the ACA went into effect and that's one of the things they chose to opt out of.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 7, 2017 11:25:34 GMT -5
Our church sets young children aside for other activities on the Sabbath. They stay in the same hall, but are given their own set of activities rather than having to listen to a sermon.
As for the "biddy" in the OP: I agree with her conclusion but not her reasoning. When attending Sabbath services, one is presenting oneself before God for the purposes of worship, as if coming before a king or high dignitary with one's family. With a few key exceptions, one's dress, speech, and conduct should comport with the same in an audience with a high dignitary.
Thus every family with an infant needs to consider: if they were invited to appear before Queen Elizabeth, or Sec. Xi Jinping, or the CEO of their employer's company, would mom breastfeed the infant in plain sight of the congregation, or would she conduct the feeding more privately?
I honestly don't know our church's policy on breastfeeding (the issue is likely moot since infants are cared for elsewhere during services), but, given the above standard, I wouldn't blame any church that deemed public breastfeeding during services off-limits. As natural as breast feeding is, it's inappropriate in some circumstances, and churches have to make judgments on where to draw the line.
Neither do I fault the "nasty old biddy" for editorializing on the appropriateness of breast feeding in church.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 7, 2017 11:29:48 GMT -5
Oh boy. I predict a 26 to 1 shortly.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 7, 2017 11:31:54 GMT -5
As far as dad's helping it is what it is when you breastfeed. Sometimes it works to give them bottles, sometimes it doesn't. DH helped me in other ways such as getting me food, water, putting the kids back to bed/getting them and being a desperately needed second set of hands. He was also my emotional support, there to cheer me when I succeeded and be my shoulder to cry on when the stress got to me. LOL I always figured I had the easy job. I got to sit on the couch while watching TV and feed the baby. He would clean and make dinner. I had a hard time the first three months with Gwen and then the first 6 weeks with Abby. If DH hadn't been there to be an extra set of hands to get them to cooperate I would have stopped. I totally understand why rich women used to hire wet nurses.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 7, 2017 11:35:03 GMT -5
Thus every family with an infant needs to consider: if they were invited to appear before Queen Elizabeth, or Sec. Xi Jinping, or the CEO of their employer's company, would mom breastfeed the infant in plain sight of the congregation, or would she conduct the feeding more privately? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable bringing my infant and if necessary, nursing the infant during a meeting with the Queen, foreign leaders or the CEO of a company. My presence was obviously important enough that I was invited, just as I was invited to various board meetings when I had an infant. As a person with unique skills, there are times when my skills are important and there is not a good substitute. Other times, my presence is important because it's a personal meeting. Bringing an infant to and potentially having to feed an infant during those times falls into the same category as dealing with a medical issue. Men with ostomies aren't barred from meetings, for example even though the physical process of elimination is often considered indiscreet and the output is detectable to those around them.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Sept 7, 2017 11:37:09 GMT -5
I both nursed & used bottles. It worked well, as DH could help out with those lovely "middle of the night" feedings, and I always took along a bottle or two when I went out in public. Remember, there weren't public places to nurse that many years ago. I also supplemented with formula, with the pediatrician's blessing, as I wasn't producing as much milk as my babies wanted & needed. Both of my kids learned to use both a bottle & to nurse before I left the hospital (I had to stay 2 extra days for both deliveries, so I got extra time to work with both of them, which was useful later on). Yes, they prefer breast to bottle, but can learn to go either way when they're hungry.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 7, 2017 11:40:27 GMT -5
...Just like there was an older dad that always brought his kids to 8am mass to likely give his wife a break. One of his kids was dressed in Halloween costumes for the kids first year or so of life. I mean, you tend to notice something like that, and then move on. .... DS2 wore his Darth Vader costume for over a year - think it was when he was 3-4. And yes, he wore it everywhere including church. It made him very happy and wasn't a battle I thought was worth fighting. After all, wouldn't Jesus want a shot at converting a Dark Sith Lord as well? That's awesome. We (I) have been slacking of about going to mass. So we're working on it this school year. DH is an usher. When folks are expected to give money, ushers pass out baskets in the pews, and then the kids bring the baskets to the front of the church, where the ushers and the priest are waiting to help collect the money and emptied baskets. Last week, the peanut decides she's missing DH during mass..She and DD1 brought up several baskets to the priest and ushers, to deposit the money. I'm busy reflecting and then I look up..thinking um..I have DD1, but where's DD2? Well DD2 decides she's going to use the opportunity to attach herself to DH, literally. So, there she is in front of the alter standing between the priest and DH, going through the whole routine as they wait for the bread and wine to come and be blessed. She bowed to the alter very nicely with all the men when the time came. And then she walked off with DH to the usher room (where the put the money in a safe right away). I retrieved her at that point so we wouldn't make a huge scene in front of the congregation. What was worse is the the rest of us were laughing hard in the pew. Because it was really funny. It's still poor protocol to bust a gut in the middle of mass. Oh well.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Sept 7, 2017 11:40:29 GMT -5
Oh boy. I predict a 26 to 1 shortly. So do I, but he's a big boy, and knows his opinion will be unpopular with a bunch of heathens who nursed their own kids. I find it sad that Virgil thinks boobs are pornographic, and that his church banishes kids during services.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 7, 2017 11:49:21 GMT -5
Our church sets young children aside for other activities on the Sabbath. They stay in the same hall, but are given their own set of activities rather than having to listen to a sermon. As for the "biddy" in the OP: I agree with her conclusion but not her reasoning. When attending Sabbath services, one is presenting oneself before God for the purposes of worship, as if coming before a king or high dignitary with one's family. With a few key exceptions, one's dress, speech, and conduct should comport with the same in an audience with a high dignitary.Priests are not kings and should not be treated as such. And, frankly, most of our mass is run by lay people. Our priest only does the third reading, the homily, and does blessing over the wafers/wine. In an hour mass, maybe he's got a 15-20 minute role? Personally, I find it surprising that you think that normal, regular people should be treated like high dignitaries. I certainly think, for example, that DH shouldn't be treated as such because he's an usher. Nor should I, when I play in church. Nor the person who welcomes everyone and reads off the announcements at the end of mass. ETA: However, shit. Perhaps I should tell DH that he and the kids need to start treating me like a queen. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 7, 2017 11:51:53 GMT -5
Oh boy. I predict a 26 to 1 shortly. So do I, but he's a big boy, and knows his opinion will be unpopular with a bunch of heathens who nursed their own kids. I find it sad that Virgil thinks boobs are pornographic, and that his church banishes kids during services. I disagree a little bit here. While our church doesn't "banish" kids from services, we do provide an alternative. We have a nursery where members of the congregation with children rotate supervising. The kids are read to, a craft is provided, etc. Our service is about 1 1/2 hours long. When little kids are forced to sit through that time, nobody is happy - not the kids and not the adults. Keep in mind that some people are actually there to concentrate on the sermon and a bunch of kids running up and down the aisles, crying because they are bored, etc., is a huge distraction if that is your purpose.
I'd never put my small child through that. Expecting a two year old to sit quietly when they are bored out of their mind, tired and/or hungry just seems to me like it's expecting a lot. Another spot for the children - which they happen to love - seems preferable.
I don't think Virgil thinks boobs are pornographic. I just think he feels that church service isn't the time or place to breastfeed your child. It's a good time for another serious question, tho. If you were in a hearing or trial, how would your judges feel about you breastfeeding your child during opening arguments? I don't think it's ever been addressed here although spectators have done so with no repercussions.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 7, 2017 11:51:55 GMT -5
Since it is a money board, I'm surprised that nobody's brought up the issue of how expensive decent breast pumps are. My youngest is 13 now, so maybe it's changed but when he was a baby the least expensive breast pump that actually worked worth a darn started at $300. For a family with a SAHS, that's a lot of money to spend so they may not even have a pump. I'm not sure anyone is really saying "You need to pump"...more like "there's a good chance you might have to pump at some point anyways, why not make this one of them"?
We didn't get a top-of-the-line model by any means, but we just spent about $300 on the pump and all the little accessories you need for it. Insurance paid about half, they would have covered a full pump that they offer for $150, but we got something the nurses at the hospital recommended.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 7, 2017 11:52:20 GMT -5
Our church sets young children aside for other activities on the Sabbath. They stay in the same hall, but are given their own set of activities rather than having to listen to a sermon. As for the "biddy" in the OP: I agree with her conclusion but not her reasoning. When attending Sabbath services, one is presenting oneself before God for the purposes of worship, as if coming before a king or high dignitary with one's family. With a few key exceptions, one's dress, speech, and conduct should comport with the same in an audience with a high dignitary.Priests are not kings and should not be treated as such. And, frankly, most of our mass is run by lay people. Our priest only does the third reading, the homily, and does blessing over the wafers/wine. In an hour mass, maybe he's got a 15-20 minute role? Personally, I find it surprising that you think that normal, regular people should be treated like high dignitaries. I certainly think, for example, that DH shouldn't be treated as such because he's an usher. Nor should I, when I play in church. Nor the person who welcomes everyone and reads off the announcements at the end of mass. so much truth!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 7, 2017 11:53:38 GMT -5
Thus every family with an infant needs to consider: if they were invited to appear before Queen Elizabeth, or Sec. Xi Jinping, or the CEO of their employer's company, would mom breastfeed the infant in plain sight of the congregation, or would she conduct the feeding more privately? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable bringing my infant and if necessary, nursing the infant during a meeting with the Queen, foreign leaders or the CEO of a company. My presence was obviously important enough that I was invited, just as I was invited to various board meetings when I had an infant. As a person with unique skills, there are times when my skills are important and there is not a good substitute. Other times, my presence is important because it's a personal meeting. Bringing an infant to and potentially having to feed an infant during those times falls into the same category as dealing with a medical issue. Men with ostomies aren't barred from meetings, for example even though the physical process of elimination is often considered indiscreet and the output is detectable to those around them. Hosts are gracious to individuals with medical conditions they can't work around, but this is a separate category from clearly elective activities like breastfeeding. If circumstances arise where a mother must reasonably bring her infant to church, the infant must be fed during services, and the feeding must be conducted in public, then accommodations should be made. As for your views on the appropriateness of breastfeeding, the relevant question is: if the protocol for meeting with the Queen, etc., which was set by the controllers of her household, forbade public breast feeding, would you honour the protocol? Would you resent the controllers for establishing the protocol?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 7, 2017 11:54:40 GMT -5
Our church sets young children aside for other activities on the Sabbath. They stay in the same hall, but are given their own set of activities rather than having to listen to a sermon. As for the "biddy" in the OP: I agree with her conclusion but not her reasoning. When attending Sabbath services, one is presenting oneself before God for the purposes of worship, as if coming before a king or high dignitary with one's family. With a few key exceptions, one's dress, speech, and conduct should comport with the same in an audience with a high dignitary.Priests are not kings and should not be treated as such. And, frankly, most of our mass is run by lay people. Our priest only does the third reading, the homily, and does blessing over the wafers/wine. In an hour mass, maybe he's got a 15-20 minute role? Personally, I find it surprising that you think that normal, regular people should be treated like high dignitaries. I certainly think, for example, that DH shouldn't be treated as such because he's an usher. Nor should I, when I play in church. Nor the person who welcomes everyone and reads off the announcements at the end of mass. ETA: However, shit. Perhaps I should tell DH that he and the kids need to start treating me like a queen. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. The comparison was not priests to kings, but coming before GOD in the same way as you would a king or high dignitary.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 7, 2017 11:55:49 GMT -5
Oh boy. I predict a 26 to 1 shortly. So do I, but he's a big boy, and knows his opinion will be unpopular with a bunch of heathens who nursed their own kids. I find it sad that Virgil thinks boobs are pornographic, and that his church banishes kids during services. Meh, I think kids probably get a lot more out of being somewhere else with something geared towards them than they do sitting in a church service waiting for it to be over...or playing with toys quietly like most seem to during the adult services.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 7, 2017 11:56:15 GMT -5
FWIW, I don't fault Virgil for finding breasts pornographic... WE did that. We, as a society, made breasts sexual. There are still native tribes around the world who walk around pretty much naked. I'm willing to bet they don't experience any more rape/violence toward women than we in modern society do.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 7, 2017 11:57:42 GMT -5
So do I, but he's a big boy, and knows his opinion will be unpopular with a bunch of heathens who nursed their own kids. I find it sad that Virgil thinks boobs are pornographic, and that his church banishes kids during services. I disagree a little bit here. While our church doesn't "banish" kids from services, we do provide an alternative. We have a nursery where members of the congregation with children rotate supervising. The kids are read to, a craft is provided, etc. Our service is about 1 1/2 hours long. When little kids are forced to sit through that time, nobody is happy - not the kids and not the adults. Keep in mind that some people are actually there to concentrate on the sermon and a bunch of kids running up and down the aisles, crying because they are bored, etc., is a huge distraction if that is your purpose.
I'd never put my small child through that. Expecting a two year old to sit quietly when they are bored out of their mind, tired and/or hungry just seems to me like it's expecting a lot. Another spot for the children - which they happen to love - seems preferable.
I don't think Virgil thinks boobs are pornographic. I just think he feels that church service isn't the time or place to breastfeed your child. It's a good time for another serious question, tho. If you were in a hearing or trial, how would your judges feel about you breastfeeding your child during opening arguments? I don't think it's ever been addressed here although spectators have done so with no repercussions.
I couldn't bring a baby in the courtroom because i wouldn't be able to give my full attention to the task at hand. But judges do give pumping breaks.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 7, 2017 11:58:33 GMT -5
I wouldn't feel uncomfortable bringing my infant and if necessary, nursing the infant during a meeting with the Queen, foreign leaders or the CEO of a company. My presence was obviously important enough that I was invited, just as I was invited to various board meetings when I had an infant. As a person with unique skills, there are times when my skills are important and there is not a good substitute. Other times, my presence is important because it's a personal meeting. Bringing an infant to and potentially having to feed an infant during those times falls into the same category as dealing with a medical issue. Men with ostomies aren't barred from meetings, for example even though the physical process of elimination is often considered indiscreet and the output is detectable to those around them. Hosts are gracious to individuals with medical conditions they can't work around, but this is a separate category from clearly elective activities like breastfeeding. If circumstances arise where a mother must reasonably bring her infant to church, the infant must be fed during services, and the feeding must be conducted in public, then accommodations should be made.As for your views on the appropriateness of breastfeeding, the relevant question is: if the protocol for meeting with the Queen, etc., which was set by the controllers of her household, forbade public breast feeding, would you honour the protocol? Would you resent the controllers for establishing the protocol? I'd argue that a nursing cover is an accommodation.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 7, 2017 11:58:40 GMT -5
I don't think Virgil is referring to the priests/ministers as the "high dignitary" one is presenting themselves to at church. I think he is referring to God.
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