Why am I pissed?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

How about something like "Sister I understand that you are concerned for my soul and feel the need to 'save" me.  However I am at peace with my choices.  Anymore books you send will be pitched and I'm concerned if you keep doing this it'll cause a permenant rift in our relationship.  I don't ask for your approval but I do expect you to accept it from here on out.".

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 19, 2016 14:15:32 GMT -5 @joey said:

Dec 17, 2016 18:39:35 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I know this.  But why am I pissed?

Because, by sending you this book she is in effect saying.."I don't respect your beliefs, here are mine, study them".

I would find it annoying.

This is a reflection of your attitude, not objective fact.

My parents are Catholic. I'm not, and the doctrines I believe are quite different. My Mom sent me a book about why she holds Catholic doctrines. I've sent her and my father literature published by my church, some of which is critical of the Catholic Church.

I've never sent a religious book to an atheistic friend or relative, but I've had lengthy discussions that resulted in agreements from one or both parties to read something based on the other's recommendation. Insisting somebody ought to read something is at least as forward and "disrespectful" as sending them a book as a gift.

I've never felt disrespected by any of this, and I've never intended disrespect by any of it. So phooey on your "I don't respect your beliefs...". That's you talking, not Mich's sister.

If somebody sent me literature specifically meant to insult rather than to edify, such as "101 Reasons Your Religion is Stupid", etc., I might be offended if I knew without a doubt the sender intended to cause offense. If it was a relative, I'd write it off and still forgive them. Family is family.

As for the "You should start a war. You need to protect yourself." rhetoric (this isn't directed at you, Apple): beam me up. If you've got your heart set on a miserable, dysfunctional family, war on. Brook no offense, forgive nothing, assume the worst, and get to work hacking apart one of the most precious relationships you've ever had. IMNSHO you'd have to be a fruitcake to do it, but misery loves company.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 19, 2016 15:46:15 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Dec 19, 2016 14:15:32 GMT -5 @joey said:

Because, by sending you this book she is in effect saying.."I don't respect your beliefs, here are mine, study them".

I would find it annoying.

This is a reflection of your attitude, not objective fact.

My parents are Catholic. I'm not, and the doctrines I believe are quite different. My Mom sent me a book about why she holds Catholic doctrines. I've sent her and my father literature published by my church, some of which is critical of the Catholic Church.

I've never sent a religious book to an atheistic friend or relative, but I've had lengthy discussions that resulted in agreements from one or both parties to read something based on the other's recommendation. Insisting somebody ought to read something is at least as forward and "disrespectful" as sending them a book as a gift.

I've never felt disrespected by any of this, and I've never intended disrespect by any of it. So phooey on your "I don't respect your beliefs...". That's you talking, not Mich's sister.

If somebody sent me literature specifically meant to insult rather than to edify, such as "101 Reasons Your Religion is Stupid", etc., I might be offended if I knew without a doubt the sender intended to cause offense. If it was a relative, I'd write it off and still forgive them. Family is family.

As for the "You should start a war. You need to protect yourself." rhetoric (this isn't directed at you, Apple): beam me up. If you've got your heart set on a miserable, dysfunctional family, war on. Brook no offense, forgive nothing, assume the worst, and get to work hacking apart one of the most precious relationships you've ever had. IMNSHO you'd have to be a fruitcake to do it, but misery loves company.

You are wrong, this is very much it.  Maybe not in your brain, but you are not me and as I was asking why I was so pissed, this hit the nail on the head.

Good for you if this wouldn't bother you.  Last I heard, you weren't me and it bothers ME.

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 19, 2016 14:42:31 GMT -5 imawino said:

Dec 19, 2016 12:43:36 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I don't believe it's just semantics. One is basically saying, "maybe/maybe not, but I'm not going to worry about it." The other is saying, "you are all wrong. It's nothing more than a flying spaghetti monster."
One is much more respectful than the other.

I wholeheartedly, but still respectfully, disagree.   Having a belief or opinion does not make one disrespectful.  Being disrespectful makes one disrespectful.

Are you saying that talking about a flying spaghetti monster is not disrespectful? I respect people's right to believe or not believe, but to make fun of other's beliefs in that manner certainly seems disrespectful to me.

[raeoflyte]

Dec 19, 2016 13:12:44 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Dec 19, 2016 12:51:56 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I disagree.   I can be an atheist and still respect other people's beliefs.   If you (this is hypothetical you, not YOU personally lizard)  believe I am saying you are wrong when I tell you I'm an atheist that says more about you than it does me.   If you are confident in your own beliefs it shouldn't matter what I choose to call myself.

I'm pretty laid back about it all.   I even attend church sometimes because it makes Gwen and DH happy.  I just choose not to pray or partake in communion.

That's cool, but my experience with people IRL have been as I've described. My beliefs are not main-stream, so I don't tend to get personally offended, and I don't care if others share my beliefs. The flying spaghetti monster (not that I've ever read anything from you personally regarding this), I found kinda funny when it first came out. The way it's used now is offensive, though. And I bring it up because I find atheists like to use TFSM, while agnostics do not. But to get back to the point, agnostics allow for the possibility, while atheists do not. It's the difference between an open mind, and one that is not. So, that's why you would get more receptivity from professing to being agnostic vs atheist.

You dislike atheism because of the a$$hole atheists you have met.  Many people dislike christianity because of the a$$hole christians they've met.  

I know 2 out atheists, and droves of out christians, so while I accept that a$$holes come in all shapes, sizes and religions (or lack thereof) I run into a lot more of the christian variety than atheists.  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Dec 19, 2016 16:09:42 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Dec 19, 2016 14:42:31 GMT -5 imawino said:

I wholeheartedly, but still respectfully, disagree.   Having a belief or opinion does not make one disrespectful.  Being disrespectful makes one disrespectful.

Are you saying that talking about a flying spaghetti monster is not disrespectful? I respect people's right to believe or not believe, but to make fun of other's beliefs in that manner certainly seems disrespectful to me.

I think she was saying that you can be an atheist and not mention the flying spaghetti noodle monster to people who disagree with you.  It has nothing to do with being an atheist and everything to do with being an asshole.

In other words correlation does not equal causation.   

No you won't hear someone who claims to be a Christian talking about the spaghetti monster but I've been mocked for "not believing".

It just so happens that small sampling of Christians happen to be assholes.   If I expanded my sample base I'd eventually end up with a bell curve with assholes who also claim to be Christian being on one end of the extreme and a lot smaller in number than previously assumed.

We as human beings tend to remember negative encounters a lot more than we do positive ones.   Theory is that it is because remembering negative experiences better could be potentially live saving.   So if you've encountered several assholes who also say they are atheists you're going to start thinking all atheists are assholes.   Confirmation bias then kicks in and your brain is going to remember all the assholes and tune out those that do not conform to already established bias.

[shanendoah]

The Walk of the Penguin Mich *hugs*

Virgil Showlion - You can't assume everyone's relationships work exactly like yours. As I said, if I had received a book along those lines from my brother, I would take it very differently from receiving something similar from my father, precisely because the relationships are different. Our guesses as to why Mich feels the way she does come from her comments - but no, none of us can truly KNOW what her sister meant, because none of us are her sister. Mich is asking why she herself is feeling upset, we're responding with our thoughts on the matter. Only Mich can decide what is accurate for her, but we are responding to her question.
Note, I also did not say to start a war. I said Mich has to decide how to handle this, but us assuming that the entire relationship with her sister is Mich's responsibility is unfair. Her sister bears responsibility for this relationship, too. One person trying and one person not trying does not a relationship make.
Like it or not, not all family relationships are precious. Some are toxic. Some are somewhere in between. We cannot know what Mich's relationship with her sister is like, because we haven't been around for their lives. What we can say is that 100% of the responsibility for how this relationship moves forward should not be on Mich's shoulders. Her sister has culpability here, too. It is not always one persons job to submit to the other person.

Now, since I wrote what I wrote, Mich has had time to think and respond. Because she recognizes the difficult situation her sister is in, her goal for now is going to be one of appeasement, or at least not outright conflict, and that makes total sense. But at some point, no matter how much we may love a person, no matter how difficult a time they might be going through, we each and every one of us have a right to stand up and say - this is not acceptable to me. You need to change how you treat me, or I will force the change by changing how I relate to you.

This sort of thing is NOT an easy decision, nor one that I have ever seen made lightly. It tends to have never ending ramifications for everyone involved, even tangentially. But it can also be one of the healthiest things someone does for themself.

It doesn't sound like Mich is at this point, and I honestly hope she never gets there. But the point is, the responsibility for the relationship isn't completely on her.

[imawino]

Dec 19, 2016 16:09:42 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Dec 19, 2016 14:42:31 GMT -5 imawino said:

I wholeheartedly, but still respectfully, disagree.   Having a belief or opinion does not make one disrespectful.  Being disrespectful makes one disrespectful.

Are you saying that talking about a flying spaghetti monster is not disrespectful? I respect people's right to believe or not believe, but to make fun of other's beliefs in that manner certainly seems disrespectful to me.

That's not what I said.  Having a different belief system as someone else does not mean you are disrespectful of them. Iif it did, then Catholics are disrespectful of Baptists, Jews are disrespectful of Catholics and spenders are disrespectful of savers. You are equating asshole to atheist. THAT is disrespectful.

ETA: Telling someone they are going to hell for not believing the same as they do is disrespectful. I don't assume all Christians believe that just because some say it.

As I sit here thinking on your statements, I have to ask - would you feel comfortable painting all Catholics as disrespectful?  All Christians in general?  All Jews or Muslims?  If not, why do you feel that it's okay to paint all people who don't believe in a religion that way? 

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2016 15:46:15 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Dec 19, 2016 14:15:32 GMT -5 @joey said:

Because, by sending you this book she is in effect saying.."I don't respect your beliefs, here are mine, study them".

I would find it annoying.

This is a reflection of your attitude, not objective fact.

My parents are Catholic. I'm not, and the doctrines I believe are quite different. My Mom sent me a book about why she holds Catholic doctrines. I've sent her and my father literature published by my church, some of which is critical of the Catholic Church.

I've never sent a religious book to an atheistic friend or relative, but I've had lengthy discussions that resulted in agreements from one or both parties to read something based on the other's recommendation. Insisting somebody ought to read something is at least as forward and "disrespectful" as sending them a book as a gift.

I've never felt disrespected by any of this, and I've never intended disrespect by any of it. So phooey on your "I don't respect your beliefs...". That's you talking, not Mich's sister.

If somebody sent me literature specifically meant to insult rather than to edify, such as "101 Reasons Your Religion is Stupid", etc., I might be offended if I knew without a doubt the sender intended to cause offense. If it was a relative, I'd write it off and still forgive them. Family is family.

As for the "You should start a war. You need to protect yourself." rhetoric (this isn't directed at you, Apple): beam me up. If you've got your heart set on a miserable, dysfunctional family, war on. Brook no offense, forgive nothing, assume the worst, and get to work hacking apart one of the most precious relationships you've ever had. IMNSHO you'd have to be a fruitcake to do it, but misery loves company.

Obviously his sister did not INTEND to offend or disrespect him. However this thread is about how HE feels. 
I stand by my post so phooey on you.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Dec 19, 2016 16:23:11 GMT -5 imawino said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:09:42 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Are you saying that talking about a flying spaghetti monster is not disrespectful? I respect people's right to believe or not believe, but to make fun of other's beliefs in that manner certainly seems disrespectful to me.

That's not what I said.  Having a different belief system as someone else does not mean you are disrespectful of them. Iif it did, then Catholics are disrespectful of Baptists, Jews are disrespectful of Catholics and spenders are disrespectful of savers. You are equating asshole to atheist. THAT is disrespectful.

ETA: Telling someone they are going to hell for not believing the same as they do is disrespectful. I don't assume all Christians believe that just because some say it.

As I sit here thinking on your statements, I have to ask - would you feel comfortable painting all Catholics as disrespectful?  All Christians in general?  All Jews or Muslims?  If not, why do you feel that it's okay to paint all people who don't believe in a religion that way? 

Actually, that would kind of be a "thing" in Christianity. A Christian is a Christian because that person believes that Jesus is the Son of God and believing that and having a relationship with Christ is what gets a person to Heaven. If a person doesn't believe that, then Christians believe that person is going to Hell. 

Not all Christians will get in people's faces about this though (me, for example). However, it's why I said I understood Mich being upset with her sister but to understand why her sister is "forcing" this issue. 

In response to Mich's post regarding her sister's current life meltdown, to me that would be another reason to just ignore this behavior and/or change the subject when it comes up. Throwing in a "I'm not discussing religion with you anymore" seems totally appropriate. The sister is having a wretched time right now. Extending her some grace for her rude behaviour seems much more sisterly than having an argument with her. Having been through a divorce, I knew I was unhappy at the time. I didn't realize how hostile I was to everyone around me until a few years after it was done. And I wanted the divorce, so in theory, my journey was easier. I appreciate those who have forgiven me for being so awful during that time of my life. 

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 19, 2016 16:13:27 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Dec 19, 2016 13:12:44 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

That's cool, but my experience with people IRL have been as I've described. My beliefs are not main-stream, so I don't tend to get personally offended, and I don't care if others share my beliefs. The flying spaghetti monster (not that I've ever read anything from you personally regarding this), I found kinda funny when it first came out. The way it's used now is offensive, though. And I bring it up because I find atheists like to use TFSM, while agnostics do not. But to get back to the point, agnostics allow for the possibility, while atheists do not. It's the difference between an open mind, and one that is not. So, that's why you would get more receptivity from professing to being agnostic vs atheist.

You dislike atheism because of the a$$hole atheists you have met.  Many people dislike christianity because of the a$$hole christians they've met.  

I know 2 out atheists, and droves of out christians, so while I accept that a$$holes come in all shapes, sizes and religions (or lack thereof) I run into a lot more of the christian variety than atheists.  

I don't dislike atheists at all. I actually dislike hypocritical Christians more! My issue is completely with disrespect shown towards those who do believe, especially with comments about the flying spaghetti monster. I don't run into this with agnostics.

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 19, 2016 16:14:36 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:09:42 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Are you saying that talking about a flying spaghetti monster is not disrespectful? I respect people's right to believe or not believe, but to make fun of other's beliefs in that manner certainly seems disrespectful to me.

I think she was saying that you can be an atheist and not mention the flying spaghetti noodle monster to people who disagree with you.  It has nothing to do with being an atheist and everything to do with being an asshole.

In other words correlation does not equal causation.   

No you won't hear someone who claims to be a Christian talking about the spaghetti monster but I've been mocked for "not believing".

It just so happens that small sampling of Christians happen to be assholes.   If I expanded my sample base I'd eventually end up with a bell curve with assholes who also claim to be Christian being on one end of the extreme and a lot smaller in number than previously assumed.

We as human beings tend to remember negative encounters a lot more than we do positive ones.   Theory is that it is because remembering negative experiences better could be potentially live saving.   So if you've encountered several assholes who also say they are atheists you're going to start thinking all atheists are assholes.   Confirmation bias then kicks in and your brain is going to remember all the assholes and tune out those that do not conform to already established bias.

I am totally cool with atheists who are respectful. Unfortunately, too often disrespect has come out. My response to you originally was about the difference between atheism and agnosticism, and I was trying to relay that there is an inherent difference in attitude and openness to the unknown. Additionally, from one, I sense a disdain that is not present in the other. But you're right in one sense, my atheist exbf was more of an asshole than my agnostic x. 😜

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 19, 2016 16:23:11 GMT -5 imawino said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:09:42 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Are you saying that talking about a flying spaghetti monster is not disrespectful? I respect people's right to believe or not believe, but to make fun of other's beliefs in that manner certainly seems disrespectful to me.

That's not what I said.  Having a different belief system as someone else does not mean you are disrespectful of them. Iif it did, then Catholics are disrespectful of Baptists, Jews are disrespectful of Catholics and spenders are disrespectful of savers. You are equating asshole to atheist. THAT is disrespectful.

ETA: Telling someone they are going to hell for not believing the same as they do is disrespectful. I don't assume all Christians believe that just because some say it.

As I sit here thinking on your statements, I have to ask - would you feel comfortable painting all Catholics as disrespectful?  All Christians in general?  All Jews or Muslims?  If not, why do you feel that it's okay to paint all people who don't believe in a religion that way? 

I never said it was. I said bringing up the flying spaghetti monster is disrespectful, assuming of course, no one actually believes in the flying spaghetti monster. But, unfortunately, TFSM always seems to be brought out by atheists, and then the true disdain is brought to bare. That is all. My own ideology is so much closer to agnosticism than organized religion, that I'm with you, like, probably 95% of the way, then that ugliness is brought out and I'm lost. I've been ridiculed enough in my life to recognize it.

(Oh, and I don't believe in heaven and hell, so I really don't care where someone claims I maybe going.)

[chiver78]

at least with the atheists I know, TFSM doesn't become a topic unless there is disdain or condescension coming from the believers in whatever discussion. it goes along with what I said way earlier about most non-Christians I know being averse to confrontations as far as religious discussions go. YMMV.

[imawino]

Dec 19, 2016 17:56:12 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:23:11 GMT -5 imawino said:

That's not what I said.  Having a different belief system as someone else does not mean you are disrespectful of them. Iif it did, then Catholics are disrespectful of Baptists, Jews are disrespectful of Catholics and spenders are disrespectful of savers. You are equating asshole to atheist. THAT is disrespectful.

ETA: Telling someone they are going to hell for not believing the same as they do is disrespectful. I don't assume all Christians believe that just because some say it.

As I sit here thinking on your statements, I have to ask - would you feel comfortable painting all Catholics as disrespectful?  All Christians in general?  All Jews or Muslims?  If not, why do you feel that it's okay to paint all people who don't believe in a religion that way? 

I never said it was. I said bringing up the flying spaghetti monster is disrespectful, assuming of course, no one actually believes in the flying spaghetti monster. But, unfortunately, TFSM always seems to be brought out by atheists, and then the true disdain is brought to bare. That is all. My own ideology is so much closer to agnosticism than organized religion, that I'm with you, like, probably 95% of the way, then that ugliness is brought out and I'm lost. I've been ridiculed enough in my life to recognize it.

(Oh, and I don't believe in heaven and hell, so I really don't care where someone claims I maybe going.)

Okay - you don't believe in hell, so it's not disrespectful for christians to tell atheists they are going there?  Do you believe in the flying spaghetti monster?  Because if you were to apply the exact same logic, you shouldn't care when someone talks about that either. It's only if you apply an entirely different standard of behavior to a specific group of people that it would become an issue.  You're all over the place here.  And I have never heard the flying spaghetti monster brought up as much as I have by you.   Clearly someone has upset you by bringing it up, and that's fair.  But applying a different level of behavior to adhere to is not.

ETA:  You actually did say atheism was more disrespectful because it believes religious people are wrong.  The same can be said of any belief system, religious or otherwise.  If you have a belief, you believe that opposing beliefs are wrong.  That's how it goes with beliefs, otherwise you don't really believe them.  

[sesfw]

But I'm not pissed anymore, I'm sad. And you know what? I think that this hurts more


I'm so sorry it has come down to this.  You are on an emotional rollercoaster.  This is what grief feels like ..... death ......... whether it's a person, job, relationship, or any life change.

Your sis wants what she thinks is best for you ..... and you know it isn't best for you.  I have a cousin and we can't talk either politics or religion ... the relationship is strained at best.

Good luck with what ever you decide

[Opti]

Dec 19, 2016 17:28:31 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Dec 19, 2016 16:23:11 GMT -5 imawino said:

That's not what I said.  Having a different belief system as someone else does not mean you are disrespectful of them. Iif it did, then Catholics are disrespectful of Baptists, Jews are disrespectful of Catholics and spenders are disrespectful of savers. You are equating asshole to atheist. THAT is disrespectful.

ETA: Telling someone they are going to hell for not believing the same as they do is disrespectful. I don't assume all Christians believe that just because some say it.

As I sit here thinking on your statements, I have to ask - would you feel comfortable painting all Catholics as disrespectful?  All Christians in general?  All Jews or Muslims?  If not, why do you feel that it's okay to paint all people who don't believe in a religion that way? 

Actually, that would kind of be a "thing" in Christianity. A Christian is a Christian because that person believes that Jesus is the Son of God and believing that and having a relationship with Christ is what gets a person to Heaven. If a person doesn't believe that, then Christians believe that person is going to Hell. 

Not all Christians will get in people's faces about this though (me, for example). However, it's why I said I understood Mich being upset with her sister but to understand why her sister is "forcing" this issue. 

In response to Mich's post regarding her sister's current life meltdown, to me that would be another reason to just ignore this behavior and/or change the subject when it comes up. Throwing in a "I'm not discussing religion with you anymore" seems totally appropriate. The sister is having a wretched time right now. Extending her some grace for her rude behaviour seems much more sisterly than having an argument with her. Having been through a divorce, I knew I was unhappy at the time. I didn't realize how hostile I was to everyone around me until a few years after it was done. And I wanted the divorce, so in theory, my journey was easier. I appreciate those who have forgiven me for being so awful during that time of my life. 

I don't fully agree with the bolded paragraph about what all Christians believe. I think much depends on the denomination, the believer and even the minister. I know Hell and Satan is fixated on in some churches but others it may not come up all that much. I know with my religious upbringing there was very little concern or focus on Hell and other people. The focus IMO was more about you and heaven.

[weltschmerz]

What atheists need to get some respect is our own jaunty chapeau.

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 19, 2016 16:00:26 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

You are wrong, this is very much it.  Maybe not in your brain, but you are not me and as I was asking why I was so pissed, this hit the nail on the head.

Good for you if this wouldn't bother you.  Last I heard, you weren't me and it bothers ME.

This doesn't have to be about you. Be selfless.

I know it's easier said than done, but with all the dysfunction, anger, rottenness, and hatred in the world, do we really need to be triggered by these slights? Do you gain anything by not forgiving your sister, putting up with her flaws and presumptions?

If her zeal to convert you borders on harassment, where you can't talk to her for more than five minutes without her throwing religion in your face and insisting you talk about it, then I can understand shutting her out. But a book? What's the worst that can happen? You feel compelled to read it? You don't, and there's that awkward moment where you have to tell her you gave it away because you had no intention of reading it?

I know I'm the insensitive bastard of YMAM, but isn't a relationship with your sister--your blood relative--of far greater value than this? And if so, even if the relationship is lopsided, is there anyone with whom we should be more compassionate, longsuffering and selfless than family?

I don't know your family situation. If this is one more punch in the face from a relative who routinely abuses you--if that's your honest assessment of it--then put your shields up. If it's just your sister giving you a book because she doesn't agree with your spirituality: forgive her. Love her. Be the kindness and tolerance you want to see in the world. Brothers who were statesmen on opposite sides of wars, literally trying to kill each other, have reconciled. You can overcome an ideological spat with your sister.

Dec 19, 2016 16:16:16 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

Note, I also did not say to start a war. I said Mich has to decide how to handle this, but us assuming that the entire relationship with her sister is Mich's responsibility is unfair. Her sister bears responsibility for this relationship, too. One person trying and one person not trying does not a relationship make.

Like it or not, not all family relationships are precious. Some are toxic. Some are somewhere in between. We cannot know what Mich's relationship with her sister is like, because we haven't been around for their lives. What we can say is that 100% of the responsibility for how this relationship moves forward should not be on Mich's shoulders. Her sister has culpability here, too. It is not always one persons job to submit to the other person.

Note my disclaimers above.

Mich may not have 100% of the responsibility for the relationship, but she's getting 100% of our advice, and her reaction is 100% on her.

If her sister was here, we could probe her motives and censure her for upsetting Mich, but she isn't. The only variable Mich can control is her own reaction, and while I admit some family relationships are toxic, IMNSHO they have to be really, really toxic to make severing family bonds a good idea.

Acquaintances and casual friends come and go, but lifelong friends and family members are like our organs. Even if they give us grief from time to time, cutting them out of our lives should be an absolute last resort. If we don't plan on cutting them out, we show them as much love as we can, unconditionally, because that's what's selfless people do.

Dec 19, 2016 16:25:28 GMT -5 @joey said:

Obviously his sister did not INTEND to offend or disrespect him. However this thread is about how HE feels. 
I stand by my post so phooey on you.

Your assessment in Reply #84 is phrased in the voice of the sender: "I don't respect your beliefs, here are mine, study them."

While it may be true Mich is interpreting them this way, and it may even be true that her sister intended to on her unbelief, the assessment in Reply #84 is yours. You believe the gesture is disrespectful because if you were the "I", you'd be "in effect saying" you don't respect the recipient's beliefs. If this isn't the case, it constitutes an even bigger flaw in your argument.

[giramomma]

Mich..
Would you consider seeing someone, yourself, to help you through this? Maybe even role play with you?

The one thing I wished I would have done differently with my parents is role-played with someone...and really honed my message.

My message was poorly delivered to my folks. And then I wasn't prepared for the aftermath. I find, almost 10 years out, these are the issues I have regrets about my situation.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 20, 2016 0:05:20 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Mich..
Would you consider seeing someone, yourself, to help you through this? Maybe even role play with you?

The one thing I wished I would have done differently with my parents is role-played with someone...and really honed my message.

My message was poorly delivered to my folks. And then I wasn't prepared for the aftermath. I find, almost 10 years out, these are the issues I have regrets about my situation.

If I thought it would help, yes.  My life is pretty good right now (and there is not a small amount of guilt that mine is so good and her's is so crappy).  I"m not sure what a therapist could tell me that I haven't already done.

I guess that my sister's life is so messed up, I feel like she should be heeding HER life better and not worrying about mine.

[Jaguar]

The Walk of the Penguin Mich, you're not your sister's personal punching bag and I say that cause I have a bully sister as well. My sister is so miserable and unhappy that she infects everyone with negativity. No one can fix or save another person. << HUGS >>

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 20, 2016 0:48:53 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

This book was the last straw. 

I get that... based on your latest post.

You're aware that 98% of everything in it doesn't appear anywhere else in this thread? I just checked again to be sure. You mention once that your sister yelled at you over a spat relating to her kids and that she's stressed out because of a divorce, but that's it.

Obviously the issue here is vastly bigger than this book. If you've divulged it all in other threads and it's widely known, mea culpa, but my presumption--clearly shared by many of the contributors here--was that the issue was limited in scope to the book with some added friction over her divorce. It seems what you're really upset about is a massive rift your sister has created with your family over years, and this issue with the book is nigh inconsequential.

With the picture so greatly enlarged, my only advice is that you're not going to get reliable advice from an Internet message board. You're going to get a bunch of opinions that are a function of the way you present the issue and react to suggestions. In other words, whether you like it or not, you're going to get people telling you what you want to hear. It's inevitable when one person (i.e. you) controls all of the information and gets to judge what's relevant/realistic. Hence if I were you, I'd sort it out privately with close friends and family you trust. People who know both your sister and you intimately.

The Internet is fine for small issues like presumptuous books, but for serious family feuds, it's not a reliable resource. Plus you'll be divulging all kinds of info you may later regret publicizing.

Having said all this, I'll follow my own advice and leave you to sort things out. I sincerely hope you resolve it soon and your family finds some peace.

[zibazinski]

Amen.

[finnime]

Dec 19, 2016 15:26:00 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

...  But I need to find some way to tell her that I am not receptive to this without destroying our relationship.  She is very much a tight wire right now, and the wrong choice of words could very easily do this.

But I'm not pissed anymore, I'm sad.  And you know what?  I think that this hurts more.

I'm sorry. Her floundering in pain has her reacting badly, and it sounds like she tends to react this way at other times. One possibility you have is to respond to her struggles and not to the overt message.

I would be sad, too.

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 19, 2016 20:43:34 GMT -5 imawino said:

Dec 19, 2016 17:56:12 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I never said it was. I said bringing up the flying spaghetti monster is disrespectful, assuming of course, no one actually believes in the flying spaghetti monster. But, unfortunately, TFSM always seems to be brought out by atheists, and then the true disdain is brought to bare. That is all. My own ideology is so much closer to agnosticism than organized religion, that I'm with you, like, probably 95% of the way, then that ugliness is brought out and I'm lost. I've been ridiculed enough in my life to recognize it.

(Oh, and I don't believe in heaven and hell, so I really don't care where someone claims I maybe going.)

Okay - you don't believe in hell, so it's not disrespectful for christians to tell atheists they are going there?  Do you believe in the flying spaghetti monster?  Because if you were to apply the exact same logic, you shouldn't care when someone talks about that either. It's only if you apply an entirely different standard of behavior to a specific group of people that it would become an issue.  You're all over the place here.  And I have never heard the flying spaghetti monster brought up as much as I have by you.   Clearly someone has upset you by bringing it up, and that's fair.  But applying a different level of behavior to adhere to is not.

ETA:  You actually did say atheism was more disrespectful because it believes religious people are wrong.  The same can be said of any belief system, religious or otherwise.  If you have a belief, you believe that opposing beliefs are wrong.  That's how it goes with beliefs, otherwise you don't really believe them.  

Most monotheistic religions agree on the basics, just disagree more or less on the details. I brought up TFSM to highlight the difference between atheism and agnosticism. As I mentioned previously, believers would necessarily have less problem with agnostics because they don't act like believers are silly idiots for what they believe--just neutral about it. Seems like a big difference to me. The facts of what each believes leads directly to each attitude. That's not to say every person with this belief acts like this toward the other, but there is a tendency. For the record, there is some disrespect from one religion to another, but most of the time, the people can relate to believing something. Also for the record, I think atheists in this country get a bad rap, while the country was meant to be secular and works best that way. Still doesn't mean that I don't think that it is disrespectful when atheists go on rants and go there.

Now, I'm sorry I brought it up on this thread, as it is decidedly OT. I was just surprised that so many didn't really seem to understand the difference between the two, and then I went on completely other tangent.

Oh, hell--I almost forgot Hell! People who believe in it are terrified of it, and probably trying to warn you about it too? (Sometimes, it not so nice of a way, granted.) That's the whole "saved" thing, I think. Like warning someone about staying away from drugs, I imagine.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Virgil.....I posted all I did to try to make you understand what is going on.  I deleted it because I really don't want that hanging out there, but wanted to explain to you why your comment about me trying to be more selfless was almost like a slap in the face to me.

Maybe if I had put that out there too, it would have changed the direction of the responses.  I don't know.  I still haven't figured out what to do.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Have you thought about gently suggesting to your sister she talk to her minister about all this?   If she's concerned for your soul, her daughters' souls, her STBX's souls then he would be a good source of comfort/guidance.   

I don't know if she goes to a church that is heavy into converison or not.   If it is then this plan would backfire big time. 

 If they aren't that type then the minister might be able to steer her away from pressuring you and everyone around her so much.   Coming from you it is offensive and disrespecting her beliefs.   Coming from someone who shares her beliefs it may be recieved better.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 20, 2016 9:45:13 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Have you thought about gently suggesting to your sister she talk to her minister about all this?   If she's concerned for your soul, her daughters' souls, her STBX's souls then he would be a good source of comfort/guidance.   

I don't know if she goes to a church that is heavy into converison or not.   If it is then this plan would backfire big time.   If they aren't that type then the minister might be able to better steer her away from pressuring you and everyone around her so much.

I haven't talked to her since I received this book.  But she has been getting advice from a therapist and her pastor.  She isn't listening to anyone.

[Deleted]

Hey, if she's really big into religion, you should gift her the Dave Ramsey Total Money Makeover book for Christmas!  Maybe his Christian slant and biblical references would get through to her on the money trainwreck side of things?  It really hit a chord with my ex who was also very religious when nothing else did.