Why am I pissed?

[chiver78]

Dec 17, 2016 22:17:28 GMT -5 naughtybear said:

It seems that agnostics/atheists are more tolerant of the religious people than the other way around or maybe I just haven't found the right kind of books/leaflets to sent to them.

in my experience, it's got a lot to do with how few non-religious folks there are in comparison to those that are religious (if only just the "Christmas and Easter" variety) and just being non-confrontational more than anything else. but yes. 

[resolution]

I had a similar issue with my sister about 20 years ago, although it wasn't about religion, it was about marriage and starting a family. She had gotten married out of college and had her first child in her early 20s, and I was already in my late 20s with no man in sight. She tried to do an intervention to convince me that I was throwing away my life on my social work and that some day I would wake up old and alone and realize that everything I had done in life was worthless and had no value, since I didn't have kids. She had an action plan to fix my life, including a dating service and steps that I needed to take to get on track to find a man and have some kids.

I was deeply offended and mortified, and felt like she was saying that my life was worthless, when from her perspective she loved me and didn't want me to miss out on the things that she felt brought her the most joy and happiness. Anyway, I didn't respond well and I started avoiding her for a few years, basically just showed up for major family events and missed out on some time with my nieces as they grew up. It took a long time for us to restore our relationship back to how it had been.

If I could do it over, I would react less strongly to something that she did out of love, and try not to lose the years that I lost with her and her kids. Please consider a very measured response to this and don't respond in kind.

[Deleted]

OMG resolution. I can remember mentioning to my sister a few times years ago that I hoped she didn't regret not having kids, but an intervention and an action plan. I hear you, but I guess I understand why you didn't handle that well... I'm not sure who could. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 18, 2016 7:24:18 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Maybe take this to the religious thread? What started out as a vent has turned into bashing of anyone who holds religious beliefs.

I disagree and this very clearly describes the point. Saying one does not agree with your religious belief is not bashing the belief, but the lack if respect for holding alternate beliefs....or none.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 18, 2016 8:21:48 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

I moved this topic from WIR and debated if it should to to EE or Religion. It appears I made the wrong choice. Therefore, this is being moved to the Religion forum.

BG - Admin

This isn't about religion though.  This about LACK of religious beliefs.

This could have just as easily been about any other controversial subject (like not having kids), where one does not believe as another and those that do not believe are considered lacking.  

[Shooby]

The best thing to do is be highly offended and start a war with your sis.

[Shooby]

Seriously it's just a book. Wrap it upand give it back to her for Christmas. Say thanks but since i am not gonna read this why dontu give it to someone else.

[zibazinski]

Or regift it to someone who will appreciate it. I was given a gift to a restaurant I hate but I'm not going to say or do anything nasty to the gift giver, just give it to someone who hopefully will appreciate it.

[chiver78]

Dec 18, 2016 11:59:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Or regift it to someone who will appreciate it. I was given a gift to a restaurant I hate but I'm not going to say or do anything nasty to the gift giver, just give it to someone who hopefully will appreciate it.

this is a little different....I don't think I could regift a religious book to anything other than a religious organization looking for Angel Tree (or similar) donations - where it's an anonymous gift. I personally wouldn't be able to put my name on that as a gift. 

[Blonde Granny]

This thread is being moved back to WIR at the request of the OP.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 18, 2016 11:59:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Or regift it to someone who will appreciate it. I was given a gift to a restaurant I hate but I'm not going to say or do anything nasty to the gift giver, just give it to someone who hopefully will appreciate it.

You miss the point.

The point is that I am pissed because my sister does not respect my lack of belief.  It is not that I hate her belief, I do not feel it.

Let's put it this way.  It is comparable to me asking a Muslim to consider Christianity instead of Islam.  Or to take religion out of it, to extol the virtues of children when I have chosen a well thought out child free lifestyle.  That, IMO is breathtakingly rude.

ETA:  It isn't the book, but what the book represents.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 18, 2016 11:53:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

The best thing to do is be highly offended and start a war with your sis.

Not the point.

[zibazinski]

It seems the point you've made already. If it's the hill you want to die on, so be it

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 18, 2016 12:49:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

It seems the point you've made already. If it's the hill you want to die on, so be it

I have not made the point to her.  She is going to make these passive aggressive moved until I figure out some way of shutting it down.

[zibazinski]

Ignoring it isn't an option?

[zibazinski]

I don't fear science.

[Shooby]

Dec 18, 2016 12:51:27 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Dec 18, 2016 12:49:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

It seems the point you've made already. If it's the hill you want to die on, so be it

I have not made the point to her.  She is going to make these passive aggressive moved until I figure out some way of shutting it down.

I gave u an option. Wrap it up for Christmas.

[zibazinski]

Let's just let them have their fun and go elsewhere.

[copperboxes]

Dec 18, 2016 10:56:31 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Dec 18, 2016 8:21:48 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

I moved this topic from WIR and debated if it should to to EE or Religion. It appears I made the wrong choice. Therefore, this is being moved to the Religion forum.

BG - Admin

This isn't about religion though.  This about LACK of religious beliefs.

This could have just as easily been about any other controversial subject (like not having kids), where one does not believe as another and those that do not believe are considered lacking.  

I get the sense it might not even be about a controversial topic.  

I think the note is just somewhat offputting as a baseline, and would tint just about anything. 

If a note with a challenge to consider the possibilities came with an excellent holiday cookbook, the implication from the note is that the receiver currently sucks/is boring at cooking.  The book alone would be received better in most cases.

All topics I can think of, a finance book, a repair manual, etc, paired with a challenge note imply deficiency or general unthinking dismissal.  The highly charged topic just heightens things some, like sending the Communist Manifesto or an Ayn Rand novel with a note to someone who believes the opposite, topped off with a written challenge to consider the possibilities.  

I think the same thing even applies to items.  If someone silently sent nice clothes with a written challenge to consider the possibilities, I think that'd invoke something of a frosty "are you saying my clothes suck?" reaction in most people, even if normally they'd really enjoy the item. 

I figure recommendations and gifts are ideally just that, offerings of cool or handy things, no pressure.  The emphasis is on the excellence of the item, whether the person takes to it or not is their business.

So I do understand why you're exasperated.  I love book recommendations.  I have read Ayn Rand and the Communist Manifesto, also read the Bible and Satanic Bible.  If it's in print, I'll give it a shot, non fiction, fiction, comedy to tragedy, fantasy to grit.  There are definitely better ways to offer a recommendation though.  Diplomacy is a real and useful skill.  I am not as good as it as I wish to be, but I respect the skill as something to work on.

Anyway.  I do get why you'd be annoyed.  I think I would be too.  I can't readily advise on what to do.  If I remember right, your sister is going through a lot of personal stuff, so it might be best to let it roll.  Otherwise, I might talk and just quietly ask what her reaction would be if you suddenly sent her a book about why God doesn't exist, and a challenge note like she did.

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 18, 2016 12:40:21 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Dec 18, 2016 11:59:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Or regift it to someone who will appreciate it. I was given a gift to a restaurant I hate but I'm not going to say or do anything nasty to the gift giver, just give it to someone who hopefully will appreciate it.

You miss the point.

The point is that I am pissed because my sister does not respect my lack of belief.  It is not that I hate her belief, I do not feel it.

Let's put it this way.  It is comparable to me asking a Muslim to consider Christianity instead of Islam.  Or to take religion out of it, to extol the virtues of children when I have chosen a well thought out child free lifestyle.  That, IMO is breathtakingly rude.

ETA:  It isn't the book, but what the book represents.

She cares about you.

She probably isn't aware of the adamancy of your unbelief. Given your equivocal language in this thread, one can hardly blame her.

You're clearly not agnostic. You're an non-evangelical atheist (as opposed to the evangelical variety, which is what most think of when they hear "atheist"). You need to be upfront about this with her.

Tell her plainly you have no desire to be converted, no desire to read the book, and no desire to discuss the subject. You're not questioning; you're not seeking; you have exactly what you want.

If she broaches the subject again in future and your position hasn't changed: rinse, lather, repeat.

She's your sister. I'm guessing she loves you and you love her. Don't take offense where none is intended. You'll avoid a lot of heartache and add years to your life.

[toshmanta]

I think you should pity your sister, she is obviously in need of emotional support, give her a book on haruspicy, it may help you never know,
Does she live on a farm?

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 11:53:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

The best thing to do is be highly offended and start a war with your sis.

I concur.

[Spellbound454]

These discussions are always so polarised......Good/bad..... black/white
There seems to be no credit to the multitude of colours that are in-between.

If the Sister found comfort and support in this book.... then where is the harm in that?

I wouldn't want it as a present... and would probably give it back with a chuckle saying "thanks but no-thanks"
but it wouldn't bother me further than that.

[Gardening Grandma]

Dec 18, 2016 18:15:24 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

These discussions are always so polarised......Good/bad..... black/white
There seems to be no credit to the multitude of colours that are in-between.

If the Sister found comfort and support in this book.... then where is the harm in that?

I wouldn't want it as a present... and would probably give it back with a chuckle saying "thanks but no-thanks"
but it wouldn't bother me further than that.

If the Sister found comfort and support in this book.... then where is the harm in that?

The issue isn't that the sister "found comfort and support"

The issue (as I understand it) is that the sister is attempting to force said "comfort and support" down the throat of the OP. Instead of accepting the OP as she is.

[quince]

You are angry because you are being treated with disrespect.
Don't send her "The God Delusion" or something similar- you know it is disrespectful behavior, there is no need to engage in it.

Say once that you have no interest in becoming religious and that you would appreciate that she stop sending you materials related to religion. If she ignores you, then you can RTS or send her the donation slip. Or if it's sent by amazon, return it, get something more to your taste, and tell her about it.  Or if you want to avoid drama, just bin it 'cause it is too much work to donate, have a snack and do something relaxing.

I absolutely understand 'cause I'm pretty sure my MIL twangs the same nerve with the crap she sends me/says. I also absolutely fantasize about sending her books that run counter to how she runs her life in response, or making PA jabs when we Skype. 

Or you could give her the gift of a donation in her name to the Center for Inquiry. 

[copperboxes]

Dec 18, 2016 18:15:24 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

These discussions are always so polarised......Good/bad..... black/white
There seems to be no credit to the multitude of colours that are in-between.

If the Sister found comfort and support in this book.... then where is the harm in that?

I wouldn't want it as a present... and would probably give it back with a chuckle saying "thanks but no-thanks"
but it wouldn't bother me further than that.

No harm at all in the sister finding comfort in the book.  

I think the tricky thing is the situation could be easily reversed, and it'd also be kind of a wince event.  If someone sent "the God Delusion" to Mich's sister with good intent in their mind, it would still be kind of "woah now" diplomatically, particularly if it included a challenge letter.

Most people don't react well to being given weight loss products unasked for and being challenged to use them too, even if the gift/challenge is well meaning.  I think there's nothing inherently wrong with a political, religious, or high charged economic book, or weight loss products or cleaning products.  All are interesting and useful items.  

I think some things just make potentially awkward gifts.  Best for some items to be requested.  If given totally unasked, generally best not to include an explicit challenge to the way someone does things, is my sense.

Just thoughts anyway.  Like I said, I don't have high stats in diplomacy.  I feel my way along.  Mostly I try hard to show no ill intent, and speak quietly, and hope that combo gets me through okay.  

I do give a lot of leeway for good intentions, but if something is likely to cause me to ruffle up with someone I really care about, I'd rather speak about it while it's just a mild annoyance and resolve things, rather than let stuff build.  People aren't mind readers.  I really love my sisters a lot, we're all very different in looks, interests and personalities, so being clear keeps us all very close knit and laughing when we meet up. 


ETA:  Ack, I'm mostly echoing, sorry about that.  I think the salient point is that something has occurred that doesn't work for both people.  Mich, you're in the situation to decided how you want to respond.  Family can be amazing friends, so I hope it's just a talk or similar, but I think it does make sense for you to be perplexed at the book/note combo. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 18, 2016 18:15:24 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

These discussions are always so polarised......Good/bad..... black/white
There seems to be no credit to the multitude of colours that are in-between.

If the Sister found comfort and support in this book.... then where is the harm in that?

I wouldn't want it as a present... and would probably give it back with a chuckle saying "thanks but no-thanks"
but it wouldn't bother me further than that.

Because I would imagine that my sister never even read this particular book.  I received the book because it is (according to her brain) a way of trying to bring me around to her way of thinking by relating to my scientific background.

I have absolutely no problem with my sister finding comfort and support in her religion.  However, I would prefer she respect my lack of believing the same way I respect her belief.  I don't think that that is too little to ask.  I don't know how much clearer I can say this.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Dec 18, 2016 21:01:30 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Dec 18, 2016 18:15:24 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

These discussions are always so polarised......Good/bad..... black/white
There seems to be no credit to the multitude of colours that are in-between.

If the Sister found comfort and support in this book.... then where is the harm in that?

I wouldn't want it as a present... and would probably give it back with a chuckle saying "thanks but no-thanks"
but it wouldn't bother me further than that.

Because I would imagine that my sister never even read this particular book.  I received the book because it is (according to her brain) a way of trying to bring me around to her way of thinking by relating to my scientific background.

I have absolutely no problem with my sister finding comfort and support in her religion.  However, I would prefer she respect my lack of believing the same way I respect her belief.  I don't think that that is too little to ask.  I don't know how much clearer I can say this.

I absolutely understand that on the simplest level, you have asked your sister to stop doing something to you and she keeps doing it. Yes, that is annoying. Just keep in mind that on the slightly more complex level (for your sister), she doesn't want you to go to Hell. She believes that you will. She also believes she must adhere to the "fishers of men" portion of the Gospel. I, personally, do not actively seek to convert people; part of it is a lack of confidence while part of it is that I don't want to annoy people.



I understand why you're annoyed; I'd just ignore her when the topic of religion comes up. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Dec 17, 2016 18:28:13 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I realize that this has the potential to be a controversial topic, but I need some different perspective.

I'm not religious, despite having been raised a Catholic.  I don't think I've made the leap to atheist, but agnostic definitely fits.  My sister, OTOH is very much so.  She is no longer Catholic, but has found something she is more comfortable with.  That is her need, and I am ok with this.  We very rarely talk religion.  She knows my stand on it.  The closest we come from is that she will tell me she is praying for God to give her an answer, and my response is usually "it sounds like he has, you are just not listening".  Most of this is in relation to her impending divorce.

So today, I get a book in the mail from her, The Case for Christ with the message that I read it and challenges me to consider the possibilities (her message, verbatim).

Since I opened the box this afternoon, this has pissed me off beyond belief.  I feel like she is trying to push me towards the direction she is in, and I simply don't see it.  Then book is geared towards scientists, but I really don't care.

I don't care that she is religious.  Why can't she respect my beliefs that I just don't see things her way?

As often happens, this board makes me think. At first, I'm thinking, "Why is she pissed?" I mean...throw the book away, donate it, whatever. It's not worth getting upset at family over.

Then I put the shoe on the other foot which I try to do more and more as I get older. Everyone who knows me knows what my feelings are on this subject. Should someone close to me send me a book "just to see the other side", I would probably get annoyed, too. First of all, it gives the impression that I'm just dumb or something....didn't do my homework and am just being led around by the nose. Secondly, it shows disrespect. It's sort of like...yeah, yeah...I know what you think but here is what is real.

Pissed off?  Probably not.  Highly annoyed?  Yep.  I can be passive/aggressive about these things, tho, and I probably wouldn't even mention unless the giver brought it up.  Would I read it?  Maybe.  I read everything I get my hands on.   The chances are kind of slim, tho, since I already know what it will say.

[chiver78]

okay, can we not turn this into a religious discussion? this topic is how the OP should deal (or not) with her sister. 

thanks, 
-chiver mod