Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 22, 2016 8:29:47 GMT -5
If that's how you see it, that's how you see it. I'm sure you can look up how many rapes go unreported. Of course, you can't get an accurate statistics because they were, after all, unreported. In my opinion, it's vital that we ask "why didn't they" afterwards. If we don't, we can't work to make the reasons a non-issue. If we don't ask "why", we can't fix it. Why are these women not reporting? Because of the rape kit procedure? Because of law enforcement's treatment of a victim? Because they feel they were partially at fault? All those are reasons, along with many more. So now what? We've done some real work in these areas. It's not perfect and can still be improved upon, but not unless we know where the problems are. So yes. Asking "why" after the fact is not only ok, it's vital. But asking "why didn't you tell?" is different than asking "why didn't you scream/push him away/go with him while you were drunk?"
Absolutely, we need to ask people who don't report why they don't tell, but immediately focusing the line of questioning on their reaction to the assault seems to be counterproductive to the reporting.
Investigators are trained to ask really open ended questions, such as what did he do? Then follow up with what did you do? There is a subtle difference in asking why you didn't push him away/scream/etc vs. just explain what you did.
Not too long ago, NY law required the victim to show "earnest resistence" to prove a forcible rape. It meant the victim had to actively fight back to prove force. So even if a guy had a knife at your throat, and told you that if you move, he will cut you, you had to fight. Those are the slight nuances that push some responsibility on the victim.
No. It isn't different. Why didn't she scream? Are we not doing our duty to our young women, letting them know it's perfectly ok to make a scene? Is this young lady a victim of prior abuse and conditioned to remain quiet? Are we not doing our duty to our children by letting them know there are people who will help them and that it's ok to get that help by whatever means necessary? Are we not doing a good enough job of letting young girls know their body is off limits to an adult - even if that adult is an authority figure? If we aren't, we need to. We need to know where the work needs to be done.
I know all about "not too long ago" - believe me. Things are changing because we are asking the hard questions and doing our level best to find answers. We have listened to victims tell their stories of further degradation by law enforcement, by health care providers and by the courts. Those things are slowly changing. They are changing because we asked the questions.
I get where people are coming from. I honestly do. I just don't agree because my hands are in this almost daily. I'm going to continue to ask questions. I'm not going to defend myself in this victim blaming hysteria. Asking men not to abuse and rape isn't working. Rape and abuse is not going to go away. That's a pipe dream. Asking questions to help women protect themselves before and after the assault is important to me. If people don't like that - well? Tough shit.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2016 9:28:22 GMT -5
But asking "why didn't you tell?" is different than asking "why didn't you scream/push him away/go with him while you were drunk?"
Absolutely, we need to ask people who don't report why they don't tell, but immediately focusing the line of questioning on their reaction to the assault seems to be counterproductive to the reporting.
Investigators are trained to ask really open ended questions, such as what did he do? Then follow up with what did you do? There is a subtle difference in asking why you didn't push him away/scream/etc vs. just explain what you did.
Not too long ago, NY law required the victim to show "earnest resistence" to prove a forcible rape. It meant the victim had to actively fight back to prove force. So even if a guy had a knife at your throat, and told you that if you move, he will cut you, you had to fight. Those are the slight nuances that push some responsibility on the victim.
No. It isn't different. Why didn't she scream? Are we not doing our duty to our young women, letting them know it's perfectly ok to make a scene? Is this young lady a victim of prior abuse and conditioned to remain quiet? Are we not doing our duty to our children by letting them know there are people who will help them and that it's ok to get that help by whatever means necessary? Are we not doing a good enough job of letting young girls know their body is off limits to an adult - even if that adult is an authority figure? If we aren't, we need to. We need to know where the work needs to be done.
I know all about "not too long ago" - believe me. Things are changing because we are asking the hard questions and doing our level best to find answers. We have listened to victims tell their stories of further degradation by law enforcement, by health care providers and by the courts. Those things are slowly changing. They are changing because we asked the questions.
I get where people are coming from. I honestly do. I just don't agree because my hands are in this almost daily. I'm going to continue to ask questions. I'm not going to defend myself in this victim blaming hysteria. Asking men not to abuse and rape isn't working. Rape and abuse is not going to go away. That's a pipe dream. Asking questions to help women protect themselves before and after the assault is important to me. If people don't like that - well? Tough shit.
I think we've set forth the reasons pretty well why she didn't scream. asking her isn't going to help.
Yes, we should talk to our kids about this and tell them it's OK to make a scene when someone is hurting you. I never said we shouldn't
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 22, 2016 9:35:29 GMT -5
Asking men not to abuse and rape isn't working.
Thing is we really don't. It may go back to that we don't want to believe those we love are capable of such things.
It could also go back to the pervasive attitude that "boys will be boys" and "men are horndogs" therefore it's up to us as women to protect ourselves and control their behavior. Men simply can't help themselves.
Just look at the thread where we tried to have a discussion about what to tell our sons about rape. It wasn't very long before it circled back to a WOMAN's responsibility to protect herself from rape. Anyone who tried to get back to the actual conversation was told they are not acknowledging women's roles in the situation (both as victim and attacker).
I think it's pretty much been beaten into every woman's head from the time she can walk everything we have to do and all the expectations put on us to protect ourselves from "boys being boys".
Nobody seems interested in talking about the other side of the equation because "well there is nothing we can do about that".
Just as I can't 100% keep myself from being a victim you aren't going to 100% control everyone who wants to do harm. But since it has been hammered home how vital it is that I know all these things to protect myself why can't we have a conversation about NOT raping too?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 22, 2016 10:04:04 GMT -5
It happened againThe article doesn't say if this was an unaccompanied minor or not. I'm not sure how long the airlines will be able to go without answering that question. She was 16 years old, so not considered a minor on a flight.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 22, 2016 10:07:04 GMT -5
No. It isn't different. Why didn't she scream? Are we not doing our duty to our young women, letting them know it's perfectly ok to make a scene? Is this young lady a victim of prior abuse and conditioned to remain quiet? Are we not doing our duty to our children by letting them know there are people who will help them and that it's ok to get that help by whatever means necessary? Are we not doing a good enough job of letting young girls know their body is off limits to an adult - even if that adult is an authority figure? If we aren't, we need to. We need to know where the work needs to be done.
I know all about "not too long ago" - believe me. Things are changing because we are asking the hard questions and doing our level best to find answers. We have listened to victims tell their stories of further degradation by law enforcement, by health care providers and by the courts. Those things are slowly changing. They are changing because we asked the questions.
I get where people are coming from. I honestly do. I just don't agree because my hands are in this almost daily. I'm going to continue to ask questions. I'm not going to defend myself in this victim blaming hysteria. Asking men not to abuse and rape isn't working. Rape and abuse is not going to go away. That's a pipe dream. Asking questions to help women protect themselves before and after the assault is important to me. If people don't like that - well? Tough shit.
I think we've set forth the reasons pretty well why she didn't scream. asking her isn't going to help.
Yes, we should talk to our kids about this and tell them it's OK to make a scene when someone is hurting you. I never said we shouldn't
To my knowledge, nobody here did ask her. We asked here and that's the right thing to do. I disagree with you in that asking her isn't going to help, but I agree with you that it should be done by someone trained in asking these sorts of questions and not some Regular Joe who doesn't understand the situation and may make her feel like she did something wrong. I don't think anybody wants that child to feel that way.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 22, 2016 10:28:18 GMT -5
Asking men not to abuse and rape isn't working.
Thing is we really don't. It may go back to that we don't want to believe those we love are capable of such things. "Ask" was the wrong choice of word on my part, but men know they aren't supposed to rape. That's why there are laws against it and penalties for it. They know. They might not agree, but they know. It isn't dissuading them.
It could also go back to the pervasive attitude that "boys will be boys" and "men are horndogs" therefore it's up to us as women to protect ourselves and control their behavior. Men simply can't help themselves. Honestly, I don't know anybody with an IQ over 50 who really thinks that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. However, it is up to us to protect ourselves. You can't throw in the "control their behavior" part. They are two separate things. We can take steps to protect ourselves. We can't control their behavior. Lumping them in together sounds like if we can't do one, we shouldn't do the other. I wish we didn't have to protect ourselves, but we do.
Just look at the thread where we tried to have a discussion about what to tell our sons about rape. It wasn't very long before it circled back to a WOMAN's responsibility to protect herself from rape. Anyone who tried to get back to the actual conversation was told they are not acknowledging women's roles in the situation (both as victim and attacker). Perhaps some of the disconnect is in the word "responsibility". That indicates that if something happens, it was your own fault. I've used that word, too, and it isn't the right one to use. I'd use "necessity". It is necessary for women to do their best to protect themselves because nobody is going to do it for you. So I see where you are coming from in that respect. I absolutely believe it is necessary that I take all steps I can take to protect myself and I absolutely believe that if something happens anyway, it is not my fault. Again, I don't think it's an either/or situation. You can do both - protect yourself and be blameless if it doesn't work. AND, I absolutely believe that even if a woman chooses to do nothing to protect herself, it's still not her fault. I don't understand not taking steps, but it's still not her fault.
I think it's pretty much been beaten into every woman's head from the time she can walk everything we have to do and all the expectations put on us to protect ourselves from "boys being boys". I can't speak to how everyone else was raised, but I surely wasn't. If that's the prevalent attitude, that's a problem. That's another question that needs to be asked and answered.
Nobody seems interested in talking about the other side of the equation because "well there is nothing we can do about that". I know I'm jaded, but I don't think there is. I don't think the penalties are stiff enough and I don't think possible penalties are even on their minds when they rape. To me, that would be a game changer but it isn't happening. We think of "prevention" in almost every other area of our lives, from theft prevention, to fraud prevention, to ID theft prevention, to accident prevention, to fire prevention, to kid safety seats, et. I just don't understand why, in this case, prevention is looked upon as blame. It makes no sense.
Just as I can't 100% keep myself from being a victim you aren't going to 100% control everyone who wants to do harm. But since it has been hammered home how vital it is that I know all these things to protect myself why can't we have a conversation about NOT raping too? We can and absolutely should. Again, I'm jaded, but I think one conversation is way more productive than the other. Some people are just evil. Asking them not to be evil isn't going to change anything.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 22, 2016 10:49:37 GMT -5
If your position is that most guys that rape are evil and will rape anyways (which there's studies that disagree with you) then wouldn't the evil person be evil regardless of whether you scream while he's being evil? That where you walk or what you drink doesn't make him more or less evil.
By saying most rapes are done by evil people who can't be changed, then there's very little if not next to nothing potential victims can be do to stop them because we can't change the evil people they're going to do what they want to regardless.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2016 11:05:49 GMT -5
I think the stranger rape that we seem to imagine as prevalent (stranger breaks into your home, or follows you at night) is done by evil people.
There is more work to be done, situations to be discussed, and education on what we consider "date rape". You would never see a scene in a movie about a stranger rape meant to be comedy, but it's happened in movies and TV. It also used to be OK and common for an adult male to marry a 14 year old girl. That isn't acceptable any more.
Date rape didn't even used to be considered rape. There is still a gray line of how drunk is too drunk to consent, by both parties. We need to talk to our kids, both genders, about how to protect themselves, and what constitute consent. If it happens, drilling the victim about what they did or didn't do doesn't help the situation.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 22, 2016 11:11:31 GMT -5
If your position is that most guys that rape are evil and will rape anyways (which there's studies that disagree with you) then wouldn't the evil person be evil regardless of whether you scream while he's being evil? That where you walk or what you drink doesn't make him more or less evil. Of course, he'd still be evil if you scream, but screaming might have gotten her out of the situation a whole lot more quickly. The only reason this scum bag was caught was because a flight attendant noticed the girl with a tear. This was after she endured 30 minutes of torment. Why did that poor child think she couldn't ask for help? If you don't want to know...fine. I do. And no, watching where I walk or what I drink won't make him less evil either. It just makes it a whole lot less likely I will encounter him. Again, even I choose NOT to do those things, I'm still not to blame. But I intend to lessen my chances and I hope everyone else will, too. If you don't, that's up to you. Just don't tell others they shouldn't.By saying most rapes are done by evil people who can't be changed, then there's very little if not next to nothing potential victims can be do to stop them because we can't change the evil people they're going to do what they want to regardless. Yes. There is a whole lot they can do to lessen their chances of encountering him. It's irresponsible not to let people know that. It would be a wonderful world if we could go LALALA on or merry way and if something bad happens, oh well! It wasn't my fault so I'll have no bruises, no broken bones, no lasting trauma, no possible diseases or pregnancies, no violation and I'll be completely over this tomorrow because it wasn't my fault!! LALALA! That's not how it works. Of course, it's not her fault but it still happened. The resulting trauma is life-changing. I'll avoid that if I can. You can make your own choices. Just don't try to make them for everyone else and that's exactly what people are doing by trying to shut others up. Making choices for someone else they have no right to make. At no point ever since I've been old enough to know, have people so demonized education. It makes no sense whatsoever.I understand where you are coming from. I just don't agree.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 22, 2016 11:12:42 GMT -5
I'm sorry about the in-quote responses. I'm terrible at trying to cut and paste.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 22, 2016 11:36:42 GMT -5
If we have research that shows that we get less information from our current victim and future victims if we ask things like: "what were you wearing?" and better information if we ask open ended questions like Swamp said, "What did he do? Then what did you do?" does that not matter? Is it still better to ask why didn't you scream because we don't INTEND to blame the victim we just want information so we can understand? If a large portion of peers feel that being asked what were you wearing when you were assaulated makes them feel that they are partially at fault for what happened does that mean that MAYBE we should look at changing what we ask? Not because everyone would feel the exact same way about each question, but because enough people do interpret or internalize it as some form of blame, continuing the way we think is best is actually netting us less information?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2016 11:42:12 GMT -5
certain questions about what the victim was wearing can be appropriate when asking what he did. You don't start out with that question.
Example:
He pushed me on the bed, got on top of me. blah, blah, blah. Then he pull my pants down. What kind of pants were they? then she explains how he got the pants off. What she was wearing just becomes part of the narrative.
But, if you start with I need to report a rape. Ok. Were you drunk and what were you wearing? That's a completely different vibe. It immediately puts the victim on the defensive.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 22, 2016 12:20:18 GMT -5
At 19 I was hit on by a lesbian. I had no clue what a lesbian was or what was even happening to me but was "rescued " by my date who had gone to get the car. He's the one who explained what one was. As it was all I did was back away as she kept following me. I was taught to be polite and not make scenes. It has not served me well in life so I've just been lucky. Even when I was hit on in the consignment store, I didn't feel afraid because there were other people around and when I wasn't responsive, she moved on. No harm, no foul. I taught my son about no means no but more about protecting himself than harming another. I will be having a chat with my daughter this weekend.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 22, 2016 13:00:54 GMT -5
A chat about what?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 22, 2016 17:54:17 GMT -5
Lesbians
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2016 18:12:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure what lesbians have to do with guys groping kids on planes.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 22, 2016 20:35:32 GMT -5
No, a chat about not being "nice" and a victim. She's been to OCS, she knows about the other.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 23, 2016 10:58:17 GMT -5
That coupled with the way women have been historically treated (like chattel) is why sometimes female rape victims choose not to prosecute or flat out don't report. I can see where it would be problematic for male victims too. Could you imagine being a man, walking into a police station and telling two super meathead police officers that you were sexually assaulted? What the look on their faces would be like?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 11:01:40 GMT -5
We don't repeatedly ask victims of other crimes what they did to ask for, invite, fail to protect against the crime perpetrated against them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 23, 2016 11:25:20 GMT -5
We don't repeatedly ask victims of other crimes what they did to ask for, invite, fail to protect against the crime perpetrated against them. Actually, we do. If your garage door is open and stuff is stolen, it's why didn't you shut your garage door? Or your cat and house Windows or lock your door. It's always blame the victim for helping the criminal commit a crime. Remember the old commercial about "lock your door and take your keys?" Don't help a good boy go bad. Nothing about it being the bad boy's responsibility to not steal your car.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 23, 2016 11:39:15 GMT -5
We don't repeatedly ask victims of other crimes what they did to ask for, invite, fail to protect against the crime perpetrated against them. What? Yes we do. All the time, and in MUCH more accusatory ways.
You got shot in a bad part of town...what exactly were you doing there? Who do you know there, what was your business being in that area?
Someone punched you in the face? What did they have against you? What did you do to them? Did you hit them first?
Someone t-boned you in an intersection? Are you SURE your light was green? Were you texting? Who else was in the car with you? Were you distracted?
We ask all kinds of questions to people in order to determine whether a crime actually occurred, and what may have been the alleged victim's role in contributing to it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 23, 2016 11:42:17 GMT -5
We don't repeatedly ask victims of other crimes what they did to ask for, invite, fail to protect against the crime perpetrated against them. Actually, we do. If your garage door is open and stuff is stolen, it's why didn't you shut your garage door? Or your cat and house Windows or lock your door. It's always blame the victim for helping the criminal commit a crime. Remember the old commercial about "lock your door and take your keys?" Don't help a good boy go bad. Nothing about it being the bad boy's responsibility to not steal your car. In a lot of cases though, it isn't even blame the victim...it's question the alleged victim to even figure out if a crime occurred...and whether the person you're talking to is actually a victim, committed a crime themselves, is lying to cover something, etc.
As far as commercials, I suspect that commercials aimed at "don't steal someone else's car" is a lot less effective than "here's a good way to avoid being a victim".
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 23, 2016 11:46:02 GMT -5
We don't repeatedly ask victims of other crimes what they did to ask for, invite, fail to protect against the crime perpetrated against them. Yes. We do. "Were the keys in your car?" "Was your door locked?" "Who has keys to your place?" "Who has your passwords?" "Were the two of you drinking before the assault?" "What were you doing in that part of town at midnight?" That's a typical, and totally inaccurate, argument thrown out all the time.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 23, 2016 11:51:15 GMT -5
Some of those questions are asked to get a fuller picture of what happened, but some of those "why" questions seem to imply blame.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 23, 2016 12:00:38 GMT -5
Some of those questions are asked to get a fuller picture of what happened, but some of those "why" questions seem to imply blame. It implies it if one wants to see it. For instance, if you are asking the victim of a residential burglary if their door was locked, it may be to narrow down a list of suspects. If the door was locked and there are no signs of a break in - someone with access to the home probably did it. It's for the purpose of trying to solve the dang crime. If people are just looking for reasons to be mad - I can see where they think that way. Frankly, sometimes, they are right - no question about that. Most times, however, they are wrong.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 23, 2016 12:02:58 GMT -5
"Was your door locked?" "No." "Why was your door unlocked?" "Because I had left it unlocked for the guy from the cable company."
Guess who is now a suspect? It's not to assign blame (most of the time). It's to determine what happened and to catch the criminal.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 23, 2016 12:06:16 GMT -5
Some of those questions are asked to get a fuller picture of what happened, but some of those "why" questions seem to imply blame. It implies it if one wants to see it. For instance, if you are asking the victim of a residential burglary if their door was locked, it may be to narrow down a list of suspects. If the door was locked and there are no signs of a break in - someone with access to the home probably did it. It's for the purpose of trying to solve the dang crime. If people are just looking for reasons to be mad - I can see where they think that way. Frankly, sometimes, they are right - no question about that. Most times, however, they are wrong.
It really depends on the crime and the question. "What were you wearing" could be asked because they need to know what type of evidence to check out. "Why were you wearing xyz" (regarding a rape investigation) is a pointless question and implies that there is a connection between the clothing and the crime.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 23, 2016 12:07:14 GMT -5
"Was your door locked?" "No." "Why was your door unlocked?" "Because I had left it unlocked for the guy from the cable company."
Guess who is now a suspect? It's not to assign blame (most of the time). It's to determine what happened and to catch the criminal. I agree with you there but again it depends on the crime and the questions asked.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 23, 2016 12:16:48 GMT -5
It implies it if one wants to see it. For instance, if you are asking the victim of a residential burglary if their door was locked, it may be to narrow down a list of suspects. If the door was locked and there are no signs of a break in - someone with access to the home probably did it. It's for the purpose of trying to solve the dang crime. If people are just looking for reasons to be mad - I can see where they think that way. Frankly, sometimes, they are right - no question about that. Most times, however, they are wrong.
It really depends on the crime and the question. "What were you wearing" could be asked because they need to know what type of evidence to check out. "Why were you wearing xyz" (regarding a rape investigation) is a pointless question and implies that there is a connection between the clothing and the crime. I agree, but that question isn't asked around here by anybody but defense attorneys. Not by law enforcement, not by health care officials - defense attorneys. If people want to be mad - they should be mad at them. People here are smart enough and educated enough to know it doesn't matter.
But? We can't really be mad at lawyers either. Where I live, the lawyers I know don't want these cases. Most times, the offenders need court-appointed representation. If the judge assigns you the case - you take it unless you can show a conflict of interest. If you don't provide the best defense possible (even when it's scumbaggy), you can lose your license, I'm told. It's really a "no win" situation for them also. I would absolutely HATE to be in their position. I feel bad for them.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 23, 2016 12:57:01 GMT -5
Have you ever listened to the general public talk about rape cases? Look at the Cosby case or the Kobe Bryant case for really good examples.
My position on victim blaming changed completely when the pediatrician scandal broke out. I used to think it was BS too and then I heard and read on Facebook what people were posting about the first victim who came out and her father.
It was the perp's grand daughter who at the time was FOUR YEARS OLD.
I had to block several people from my Facebook page and my opinion of them is forever altered. My SIL was going to go down to the protest at the county court house against the "little liar". They had so many people with picket signs demanding the pediatrician be cleared of such atrocious lies that they had to move the case to the federal court house.
All because the pediatrician was a pillar of our community. He'd been a leading pediatric cancer researcher for decades and was the pediatrician for so many people in CB that eventually they had to move the case out of the city to find an unbiased jury and prosecuter.
Once they really started digging a lot of nasty shit popped up, he wasn't such an outstanding person after all. It took TWENTY YEARS of naked photos and two hard drives full of hard core child porn before people began to believe he's the evil person he actually is.
I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but to call a FOUR YEAR OLD CHILD a "liar" and "mentally deranged" is sickening. I will bet you dollars to donuts that if he had not been who he was to the community people's opinions would have been much different.
Same thing goes for rape.
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