billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 20, 2016 12:17:18 GMT -5
On a different note: I would like to read articles about situations like this in which an attorney involved in the lawsuit isn't the source of information. In those situations the parties involved need to get better attorneys. I was thinking news outlets need better reporters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 12:19:49 GMT -5
But a good attorney is not going to allow his clients to go on record with the press during an ongoing lawsuit.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Jun 20, 2016 12:23:54 GMT -5
I think one difference between milee and Miss Tequila 's experiences is the relative suddenness. Another is the social norms being violated clearly (Miss Tequila) and maybe not so much with Milee. Our kids need to know explicitly how they can respond at any time when another person makes them uncomfortable. Even after the fact - I never told my parents about the creepy driving instructor, but just put up with it and tried to fend him off until lessons ended. I did not know how to bring it up, how to make him stop. And I was not a mousy little 15 year old, but I had been socialized to not make scenes. No one ever specified what assault could include, or that I could judge myself when an adult was grossly out of line.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 20, 2016 12:28:57 GMT -5
I am not a mousy little thing. At all. Even when I was little, I was brash and considered brave. But I understand completely how these things happen. The guy didn't just walk up to her and immediately grab her - which might have shocked her into a strong reaction or might not depending on how she was raised. It all happened slowly and every step wasn't a large increment from the last step, so - like a frog being boiled in water - you don't see a large enough change to warrant a strong reaction that might embarrass you or draw unwanted attention. When I was 17 I was at a party and very flattered that a really hot lifeguard who also modeled on the side seemed interested in me. He was a good 10 years older than me. He invited me, my friend who was dating one of his friends and that friend to go back to his house for a drink. As a naïve 17 year old I didn't understand that meant more than a drink and happily went, even riding with him and leaving my car at the party. My friend and her boyfriend were getting very friendly on his couch so he laughed and said we should give them some privacy...leading me into his bedroom. Again, very dumb of me to go in there but I was embarrassed at my friend making out next to me and it seemed a reasonable step to leave them alone. So we go into the bedroom and he starts kissing me. OK with me - he was incredibly handsome and a 17 year old's dream date (isn't that funny, I think of the word date because that's how I thought. Obviously not what was happening at all, but shows how naïve I was). When he started to take off my clothes, I told him I wasn't going to sleep with him and he said that was fine. But he really didn't stop. And without going into any more details, he just patiently kept at what he was doing and each little step seemed not a huge step from the last step even though I wasn't comfortable with any of it. And part of the problem was that I was embarrassed. I didn't want to run away because the idea of anybody else seeing me without all my clothes on was embarrassing, I didn't want to yell for help because that seemed really melodramatic and also embarrassing because my friend and her boyfriend would be interrupted and have to come "rescue" me, I didn't have my car or any way to leave and wasn't sure how that would work if I couldn't get him to take me back to my car, etc. It's not even that I didn't like him it was just all moving way too fast for me and not what I wanted. Plus, as an adult I realize now that I was raised in a very authoritarian abusive house so I was well conditioned to really pick my battles because if I disagreed with an adult about anything it was WWIII, so my natural defense was to be quiet, keep your clothes on as best you can, don't participate, detach from what was happening and focus on the future. Was I dumb and naïve in this situation? Yes, yes, yes!!! But that doesn't mean it was OK for him to take advantage of that, which is what I know now he did. Similar with the girl on the plane. The first signal that she should just shut up and deal with the situation was when the flight attendant offered for the guy to move and he said "no" and the flight attendant let that stand. Clear signal that the adults around might not care or get involved in whatever the guy was doing. Then, it's obvious that he slowly ramped up the behavior. First, it was only words. And she probably steeled herself to ignore it - which is what we teach young girls to do when people say offensive things. Then, he slowly moved on to getting into her personal space by looking out the window. Then he moved on to incidental contact with the page turning. And each time, even though she wasn't comfortable, the next step wasn't a big increment from the last step and she was just ignoring and waiting for it to stop... So for all of you who can't imagine how a 13 year old didn't scream or slap him, I'm very, very glad that you have lead a life where you have not had to ever encounter this and are free to wonder. But I think for many people who have ever been in situations where they were vulnerable, they can understand perfectly well how it happens. And now my story...I was that 13. My mom's creepy boyfriend started coming on to me when she left to run some errands...in no uncertain terms I told him I would cut him if he kept it up and then I would call my dad and they would never find the body...and then I bolted from the house. From a very young age that is what I was told to do by my dad (along with kick in the nuts, claw at the eyes, scream FIRE at the top of my lungs (because that is what will get attention), hitting someone if they jump in front of my car, and a bunch of other things). I have taught my daughter the same things...hopefully she never had to use them.
And the above two scenarios are the basis of my wanting to understand what makes a kid tick...not because I'm blaming some child but because perhaps what I'm teaching is not enough. Why did milee go one way and I went the other ?
I wouldn't have even asked on this thread but since everyone was jumping on lexxy for even wondering I jumped in.
This issue still needs to be beaten because you're assuming and implying that you would have controlled the situation I described. Which is another way of saying if I were smarter, stronger, more aware or if my family taught me better that wouldn't have happened. That's not true and it's offensive. I actually "dissuaded" one my mom's creepy boyfriends as well. He started out by showing me copies of Playboy magazine, moved on to claiming he needed to have the "sex talk" with me and was definitely going to be taking it further except I told him off, got my younger sister out of there and was careful to never hang out around him again. So I have skills to avoid creepy mom boyfriends as well. What you keep ignoring is that every creep/predator/would-be rapist is different. Some are more skilled than others. The creepy boyfriend of our mom wasn't very skilled. You and I were able to not only see what was happening but to control the situation with the creepy older boyfriends. The model lifeguard was either very skilled or very lucky that certain things fell into line for him. I wasn't able to see what was happening, felt constrained by other social issues, etc. You are absolutely blaming me for my lifeguard situation and implying that if I was smarter, stronger, whatever, I could have handled it because you are implying you handled it. It's not about me and it's not about you - it's about the guys involved. There is nothing you can teach your daughter to get her out of every situation and instead of doing that (and implying the woman is responsible for getting out of our avoiding the situation) your actions - seeking to figure out what the woman could/should have done are blaming the victim instead of putting the focus where it belongs. And I will keep beating this issue until more people get it. You might never get it. But someone out there reading might.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 20, 2016 12:33:17 GMT -5
I'm curious, if you believe in the predator/prey theory of victim selection. What's the answer? I'm not convinced that you will ever eliminate predators, so what can be done? Is non-prey behavior something that can be learned? This more than any other case we've talked about is about the clearest indication that this exists. It was random, there were no other factors involved (yes I'm talking about alcohol here), the victim didn't know the perpetrator. If non-prey behavior can't be learned, is there a better way to protect likely victims? But we can do things to better protect children that don't involve making the children responsible. There are plenty of safeguards - suggested and listed by the article - that would have prevented the airplane situation and wouldn't have required any action from the girl at all. Why aren't we talking about those instead of once again figuring out what the girl can do to prevent this?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 20, 2016 12:35:45 GMT -5
Is non-prey behavior something that can be learned?
I don't think so and the reason is basic human nature. We're not programmed for CONSTANT VIGALANCE (Harry Potter reference). Eventually we will continue to go on as normal and stop thinking about the worst that could happen.
Milee's frog on a hot plate analogy is spot on.
The study done where people watch a routine basketball game on film is a another good example. About half way thru an actor in a gorilla suit will appear and start dancing around on stage. Less than half of the people in the study report seeing the gorilla when asked. Reason? Your brain knows what to expect from a basketball game and fills in the details for you.
These people don't start out touching your private parts. They start by becoming a part of your daily routine, then the behavior slowly escalates until you've been conditioned to respond the way they want.
Some guy randomly coming up and grabbing your boobs is not part of your normal routine so yes you are going to react accordingly.
That same guy that has been talking to you for weeks, touching your arm when you talk, putting his hand on your knee is not going to raise the same alarm bells in your brain. By the time you DO react he's already got you where he wants you.
We as a species are not as rational as we like to believe. We also don't do near as much active thinking as we like to think we do either. It's basic human biology.
We can repeat the message of stranger danger over and over but at the end of the day none of us know how we'd truly react in the same situation.
There is also the issue of authority. You can google numerous studies on authority that go back to the 1940's-50s when people sought to understand how so many people joined the Nazi party and even actively participated in the killing of millions of innocent people. If we are as rational as we want to hope we are then things like the Holocaust should never happen right?
Wrong. We're also programmed to follow people in authority because we are social animals. One of the most famous studies is where subjects were asked to shock another participant in a different room if they answered questions incorrectly. A guy in a white lab coat sat in the room with the subject encouraging them to follow the rules. Over 70% of participants went on to give the final and fatal level of shock to the other participants. When asked why they could not provide a rational reason because clearly killing someone is wrong right?
Then there are prison studies that show the same thing.
This man on the plane was an adult. She was 13. You can claim all you want you would know better but for the majority of 13 year olds ANY adult is seen as a person of authority. Top it off with the fact that the flight attendent who DID have authority didn't move the guy a 13 year old is going to be sent the clear message that they have no say in the situation.
You'd have to actively work against human nature/biology in order to ensure that you do all the "right" things to protect yourself. That's a pretty hard thing to do despite what YM wants to believe of people.
All we can do is continue to try to send the message and pray that it works.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 20, 2016 12:38:02 GMT -5
milee I understand that's how you are interpreting this, but I can say with certainty that's not how MissT is intending it. See my questions above, as I really do think that there is a reason for the different viewpoints and in this case the different reactions by two very intelligent and strong woman. Here's the thing about saying something that offends and hurts someone. You may not have meant it that way - totally understandable. But if you're interested in not hurting or offending someone, you try to understand why what you did hurt or offended them and then you either decide 1) that person is a sensitive flower and nothing can be done to stop them from being hurt or 2) there is something about your actions that was unintentional but obviously hurtful, so you were wrong and need to modify future behaviour. Since I'm not the only one saying what Miss T said is hurtful and offensive, hopefully at some point she will see that this is not a situation #1, but a situation #2. It's similar to years ago how it used to be socially acceptable to call developmentally disabled people names like "retarded" or "mongoloid." When things started to change and it was pointed out that those names were offensive, it wasn't OK for people to keep saying "well, I didn't mean that. Let me explain again how calling you or your loved one 'retarded' wasn't meant as an insult" and to keep doing it. At some point, the people using those terms hopefully finally realized it was wrong and stopped doing it; they didn't just keep doing it and explaining that it wasn't meant to be offensive.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 20, 2016 12:42:45 GMT -5
Is non-prey behavior something that can be learned? I don't think so and the reason is basic human nature. We're not programmed for CONSTANT VIGALANCE (Harry Potter reference). Eventually we will continue to go on as normal and stop thinking about the worst that could happen. Milee's frog on a hot plate analogy is spot on. The study done where people watch a routine basketball game on film is a another good example. About half way thru an actor in a gorilla suit will appear and start dancing around on stage. Less than half of the people in the study report seeing the gorilla when asked. Reason? Your brain knows what to expect from a basketball game and fills in the details for you. These people don't start out touching your private parts. They start by becoming a part of your daily routine, then the behavior slowly escalates until you've been conditioned to respond the way they want. Some guy randomly coming up and grabbing your boobs is not part of your normal routine so yes you are going to react accordingly. That same guy that has been talking to you for weeks, touching your arm when you talk, putting his hand on your knee is not going to raise the same alarm bells in your brain. By the time you DO react he's already got you where he wants you. We as a species are not as rational as we like to believe. We also don't do near as much active thinking as we like to think we do either. It's basic human biology. We can repeat the message of stranger danger over and over but at the end of the day none of us know how we'd truly react in the same situation. There is also the issue of authority. You can google numerous studies on authority that go back to the 1940's-50s when people sought to understand how so many people joined the Nazi party and even actively participated in the killing of millions of innocent people. If we are as rational as we want to hope we are then things like the Holocaust should never happen right? Wrong. We're also programmed to follow people in authority because we are social animals. One of the most famous studies is where subjects were asked to shock another participant in a different room if they answered questions incorrectly. A guy in a white lab coat sat in the room with the subject encouraging them to follow the rules. Over 70% of participants went on to give the final and fatal level of shock to the other participants. When asked why they could not provide a rational reason because clearly killing someone is wrong right? Then there are prison studies that show the same thing. This man on the plane was an adult. She was 13. You can claim all you want you would know better but for the majority of 13 year olds ANY adult is seen as a person of authority. Top it off with the fact that the flight attendent who DID have authority didn't move the guy a 13 year old is going to be sent the clear message that they have no say in the situation. You'd have to actively work against human nature/biology in order to ensure that you do all the "right" things to protect yourself. That's a pretty hard thing to do despite what YM wants to believe of people. All we can do is continue to try to send the message and pray that it works. So you're saying we keep doing the same thing and hope that things change? That really doesn't seem like the greatest plan to me What could have been done is the Flight Attendant could have moved the guy to another seat or moved the girl to another seat where she wouldn't have been cloistered away from other people like in the back of the plane. It's the flight attendant who failed in this situation not the 13 year old girl. Telling victims not to be victims is good in theory but study after study has shown that it's not that simple. We are not the 100% logical rational thinkers we like to think that we are. That's why it is easy to say what we would have done or the girl should have done. We're not in the situation so we have time to actually think about our response and claim we've come up with a perfectly rational solution. When you're IN the situation it's a lot more complicated because our basic neurobiology fights against us. I wish I could find that article I read because it talks about this. In our current societal model the idea that we are not 100% personally responsible for everything is unacceptable. If we accept that there is no "appropriate" way to act in a situation where you are a victim that means we have to accept the universe is not ours to command and that's an unpleasant thought.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 20, 2016 12:42:49 GMT -5
But we can do things to better protect children that don't involve making the children responsible. There are plenty of safeguards - suggested and listed by the article - that would have prevented the airplane situation and wouldn't have required any action from the girl at all. Why aren't we talking about those instead of once again figuring out what the girl can do to prevent this?I was trying to but you all decided to go back to this subject. And for the record, nobody said she should have or could have done anything to prevent it. Of course they do! By questioning why she didn't react or describing how they would have knocked the perv out, they are absolutely implying that she didn't do something she should have done or that was reasonable. The clear message is that her behavior is the important variable here. Instead, we should be focusing on two things - 1) what creates and harbors pervs like this and 2) are there any safeguards the airlines - who are in control of a minor child - should be taking to prevent this? The fact that once again, we immediately go to examining and commenting on what the girl did proves how culturally conditioned we are to ignore the real issues (guy and airline) and instead misplace focus and blame on the woman.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Jun 20, 2016 12:44:51 GMT -5
Can I ask about this? I think this also may be a source of the dramatically different point of views and not understanding the other perspective. I've heard this before, and I can truly say I don't understand it. (I guess it means I wasn't raised this way). What and how were you taught this, by whom? ETA: asking finnime but if anyone has answers I'd love to hear them. I was taught - by other kids, by adults too - to not make a big fuss about accidents or minor disagreements. Get along with others. No tattle-taling. When you spend a lot of time in your childhood with siblings, you have to get along and find some ways to deal with being teased. Okay to fight back, but not overreact. So when an adult brushes against you, or grabs you to tickle you, you ignore it or go someplace else. And if you can't go someplace else - you don't really know how to respond. So maybe the brush against you was accidental? What about next time? I do think now that some strategies can and should be discussed with children, including teens, so everyone is clear: it is okay to risk embarrassing others; it is okay to make a scene sometimes. And those times are when you are uncomfortable with the way someone is approaching or touching you.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 20, 2016 12:45:40 GMT -5
Can I ask about this? I think this also may be a source of the dramatically different point of views and not understanding the other perspective. I've heard this before, and I can truly say I don't understand it. (I guess it means I wasn't raised this way). What and how were you taught this, by whom? ETA: asking finnime but if anyone has answers I'd love to hear them. It's not directed to me but I can answer. I also was socialized not to make a scene. You just don't have outbursts in public. You suck it up.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 20, 2016 12:46:02 GMT -5
Here's the thing about saying something that offends and hurts someone. You may not have meant it that way - totally understandable. But if you're interested in not hurting or offending someone, you try to understand why what you did hurt or offended them and then you either decide 1) that person is a sensitive flower and nothing can be done to stop them from being hurt or 2) there is something about your actions that was unintentional but obviously hurtful, so you were wrong and need to modify future behaviour. Since I'm not the only one saying what Miss T said is hurtful and offensive, hopefully at some point she will see that this is not a situation #1, but a situation #2. It's similar to years ago how it used to be socially acceptable to call developmentally disabled people names like "retarded" or "mongoloid." When things started to change and it was pointed out that those names were offensive, it wasn't OK for people to keep saying "well, I didn't mean that. Let me explain again how calling you or your loved one 'retarded' wasn't meant as an insult" and to keep doing it. At some point, the people using those terms hopefully finally realized it was wrong and stopped doing it; they didn't just keep doing it and explaining that it wasn't meant to be offensive. Milee, I think you are missing my point. Miss T didn't call you stupid, she didn't place blame, all she did was tell a story of what she did. That doesn't mean she's passing any judgement at all on you. No, you are missing the point. It's a message board. Other than a few idiots - and you and Miss T are not idiots - we all post responses that are relevant. Nobody gets on and quotes someone then posts something completely unrelated and random. If you and she didn't believe the girl could have either prevented, controlled or stopped the perv by something the girl did or didn't do, then there would be no reason to post about what the girl did or didn't do. If Miss T didn't believe her reaction to an older perv was relevant to my experience, she wouldn't quote me and then describe her story.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Jun 20, 2016 12:51:04 GMT -5
The perv is to blame for his actions.
The flight attendant obviously thought his seat choice was questionable but did not follow through with removing the girl from the situation.
But victim's reactions are also a variable in the equation. That does not equate to blame. If in your mind it equates to blame then so be it. In mine it does not equate to blame just another variable that might or might not be a game changer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 12:56:17 GMT -5
You've ignored as well. What is the difference between wondering why the airline behaved as they did (implying blame on the part of the airline) and wondering why the child behaved as they did (implying blame on the part of the child).
If you'd lke to discuss what we can do to help our children avoid being victimized. Or discuss the general process of self protection. I say lets have a thread on that.
Because after something like this, i can wonder to myself, "How can i help my children not appear weak to a predator" or "how should i help my child understand fight or flight or freeze? Or how can i educate my child so that they are best able to survive an assult? ....
But i never wonder what the victim in a news report 'did wrong' so as to end up a victim...
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Jun 20, 2016 13:00:41 GMT -5
I guess I'd tell them to trust their instincts. If some person makes you feel uncomfortable for whatever reason trust yourself & remove yourself from that situation. Don't worry about looking stupid or being embarrassed or making a scene.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 20, 2016 13:01:35 GMT -5
milee I understand that's how you are interpreting this, but I can say with certainty that's not how MissT is intending it. See my questions above, as I really do think that there is a reason for the different viewpoints and in this case the different reactions by two very intelligent and strong woman. And that's the whole point. When someone keeps hammering away at you, saying you are doing something you aren't, tell them to screw off and go on with your discussion. A person can sit here on a message board and pretend they know what I'm thinking until hell freezes over...but they still don't know what I'm thinking. So I ignore it and go on my way.
There are several reasons a 13 year old child may not have screamed or reacted and some of them have been listed here. Another is that same child has been a prior victim of abuse and has been conditioned to keep her mouth shut. It's a valid question and one that needs to be answered so that if your child is in trouble, they know how to get the attention of someone who can help them. That's not blaming them. That's teaching them how to get help so maybe the abuse this poor little one suffered goes on for seconds instead of 30 minutes. Obviously, that's not going to make the traumatic incident go away, but a few seconds is better than a lifetime.
This victim blaming nonsense has gone on long enough and it's time to start ignoring it (when it's inaccurate) and educate ourselves instead of being shamed into silence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 13:03:03 GMT -5
And it will completely always depend on the kid. Some are fine with that and some never will. But just because they don't... doesn't make them complicit in their assault, that they could or should have prevented or stopped it.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Jun 20, 2016 13:07:59 GMT -5
I understand not all kids will be able to fight or flight & will in fact freeze. But teaching them is about the only tool we have IMO. That & others in a position to help like the flight attendant. Her gut was telling her something was wrong with the situation. She even made a feeble attempt to move the guy to another seat. When he declined she decided not to make a scene by insisting the girl move.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 13:09:05 GMT -5
Green eye. The victim blaming is so implicit in the culture and questions we ask and ways in which we address these situations that some people can't even see it and THAT is why people keep discussing it. Because it is there. And it is hurtful. And it is dangerous.
Addressing the issue by how you would have done things differently, better, avoided the situation, not been made a victim... is all suggesting that the victim could and should have behaved in a way which would have changed the outcome.
Another big reason peole don't speak out about abuse is because they feel guilt and shame. And this perpetuated idea that their behavior, actions or lack thereof was paramount in the assault is a big reason why. Why would i bring up an assault when it leads to questions of what i should have done differently? Why would i even feel that i had the right to bring up an assault when the first instinct of people is to question what I did wrong in order to be a victim....
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jun 20, 2016 13:11:47 GMT -5
It's not directed to me but I can answer. I also was socialized not to make a scene. You just don't have outbursts in public. You suck it up. This is something I've been thinking about and worrying about a lot recently. I consider myself extremely fortunate never to have been victimized or exposed to 'creepy mom boyfriends', etc. and I hope and pray that will be the same for my two daughters (aged 7 and 3). I'm also an inveterate rule follower who took to heart the admonition to never ever make a scene. My older daughter is now of an age where she will go to friends' houses or the occasional sleepover and I always make sure to tell her to "be on your best behavior", "do whatever Ms. X tells you", "never be rude", etc. because I want to make sure my 'spirited' child is not a brat in someone else's home. What is worrying me is how to convey that good manners and courtesy are expected behaviors but she does not have to do anything that makes her uncomfortable.
If anyone has any age appropriate advice, I would love to hear from you.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 20, 2016 13:17:31 GMT -5
I understand not all kids will be able to fight or flight & will in fact freeze. But teaching them is about the only tool we have IMO. That & others in a position to help like the flight attendant. Her gut was telling her something was wrong with the situation. She even made a feeble attempt to move the guy to another seat. When he declined she decided not to make a scene by insisting the girl move. Teaching kids to avoid assault is not the only tool we have and it's about the least effective tool in the arsenal. This was a crime of opportunity. There is a whole list of things we can do to prevent situations like this: 1) Seek to understand how and why some men do this so we can make changes in the root cause of their behavior. 2) Increase awareness, rehabilitation and punishment of offenders to prevent future incidents. 3) Examine if the airline procedures for unescorted minors are adequate to protect them. 4) Increase public awareness of how they - as bystanders - can spot and prevent crime. That's only a start - there are plenty more things we should be looking at rather than insulting the girl who was just groped.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 20, 2016 13:18:37 GMT -5
I understand not all kids will be able to fight or flight & will in fact freeze. But teaching them is about the only tool we have IMO.
I agree. The issue is with recognizing that more than we like to think people are NOT going to behave the way we teach them when faced with the actual situation. Kid after kid got into the car with a 'stranger' after multiple conversations with parents and others about the dangers thereof.
That's the part that we as a society can't seem to accept. It's one thing to constantly drill into our heads hypothetical situations where we have time to discuss and think rationally. It's another to count on our brains to actually do that when presented with the situation.
In the case of predators who groom their victims they take the time to become that person's "normal". To us on the outside the situation is screwed up and "why don't they do something?". When it's your NORMAL your brain doesn't react the same way because our brains are hardwired for pattern recognition and stability. An abuse victim's normal is to be abused so their brain responds just as our does when we go about our routine.
Taking the time to read and understand studies about the brain and human nature is not "victim blaming nonsense". It's important because it shows us that when it comes to abuse and being a victim it's a lot more complicated than we seem comfortable believing. It's really not so simple as "why didn't she just scream/hit him" or "why didn't her parents teach her stranger danger".
IMO the way to combat that is not to say that we need to teach our 13 year olds better. The way to combat that is for the airline to review and modify it's minor passenger policy and take a zero tolerance policy towards flight attendants who don't follow the new rules. No way this flight attendant should still be employed right now.
No system is going to be perfect, it's designed and enforced by human beings. That being said if my kid is going to be on a flight alone then I am trusting the airline to protect them. They better start doing it. My 13 year old should not have to "scream" or "punch" in order to not be molested on a plane. The predator or my child should be removed from the situation by the people who have authority on the plane and that's the flight attendants.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 20, 2016 13:22:57 GMT -5
It's not directed to me but I can answer. I also was socialized not to make a scene. You just don't have outbursts in public. You suck it up. This is something I've been thinking about and worrying about a lot recently. I consider myself extremely fortunate never to have been victimized or exposed to 'creepy mom boyfriends', etc. and I hope and pray that will be the same for my two daughters (aged 7 and 3). I'm also an inveterate rule follower who took to heart the admonition to never ever make a scene. My older daughter is now of an age where she will go to friends' houses or the occasional sleepover and I always make sure to tell her to "be on your best behavior", "do whatever Ms. X tells you", "never be rude", etc. because I want to make sure my 'spirited' child is not a brat in someone else's home. What is worrying me is how to convey that good manners and courtesy are expected behaviors but she does not have to do anything that makes her uncomfortable.
If anyone has any age appropriate advice, I would love to hear from you.
I have been thinking about that too. There are way too many conflicting messages we give to our kids. Play nice and get along, but don't let other kids take advantage of you. Listen to your teachers/parents/grands/etc., but don't listen to them if they want you to do something bad. It makes me really sad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 13:23:55 GMT -5
It's not directed to me but I can answer. I also was socialized not to make a scene. You just don't have outbursts in public. You suck it up. This is something I've been thinking about and worrying about a lot recently. I consider myself extremely fortunate never to have been victimized or exposed to 'creepy mom boyfriends', etc. and I hope and pray that will be the same for my two daughters (aged 7 and 3). I'm also an inveterate rule follower who took to heart the admonition to never ever make a scene. My older daughter is now of an age where she will go to friends' houses or the occasional sleepover and I always make sure to tell her to "be on your best behavior", "do whatever Ms. X tells you", "never be rude", etc. because I want to make sure my 'spirited' child is not a brat in someone else's home. What is worrying me is how to convey that good manners and courtesy are expected behaviors but she does not have to do anything that makes her uncomfortable.
If anyone has any age appropriate advice, I would love to hear from you.
I think one of the things that plays a part is starting from a young age to trust in the judgement of your child and let them know that you trust in their judgement, if this makes sense? I just talked with daughter and i said to her, i was always hyper vigilent myself about who was around them, but i'm not sure i did the best about teaching them what to do or not to do when they were children if someone approached them in that manner when they were younger. We went through some of the things we discussed here and other places and that is what she said she thought was important, that they are their own people and we respected that even when they were little, and trusted them to make decisions and backed up their decisions if other people questioned them... like they had the right and ability to make judgements for themselves. If that makes any sense. I'm not sure either of us is really remembering well at this point. Just going by gists. I think it goes back to to earler talks about your body being your own and you get to make decisions about it, and respecting those decisions as an adult.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 20, 2016 13:24:21 GMT -5
Green eye. The victim blaming is so implicit in the culture and questions we ask and ways in which we address these situations that some people can't even see it and THAT is why people keep discussing it. Because it is there. And it is hurtful. And it is dangerous. It definitely occurs and should stop. I don't have a problem discussing it...and calling attention to it...when it is actually occurring...which isn't anywhere close to anything anybody has done here.
Addressing the issue by how you would have done things differently, better, avoided the situation, not been made a victim... is all suggesting that the victim could and should have behaved in a way which would have changed the outcome. Horseshit.
Another big reason peole don't speak out about abuse is because they feel guilt and shame. And this perpetuated idea that their behavior, actions or lack thereof was paramount in the assault is a big reason why. Why would i bring up an assault when it leads to questions of what i should have done differently? Why would i even feel that i had the right to bring up an assault when the first instinct of people is to question what I did wrong in order to be a victim. In some cases, you are right on. In this case, you are not.
You feel the way you feel. I feel the way I feel. Do not attempt to tell me what I'm doing/thinking because you have less than no idea - the same as me knowing about you. We'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't intend to keep up with defending something that needs no defense. I will continue to ask questions I think are important. I understand where you are coming from - I just don't agree.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 20, 2016 13:26:45 GMT -5
I've been wrestling a lot with that when it comes to doctors. Your doctor is supposed to be on the list of people you can trust but I had that notion blown out of the water.
At the same time I don't want to teach my daughters to be so paranoid about doctors they don't seek out help when they need it.
Fortunately with them being minors consent is up to DH and myself which makes things easier for the time being. As they get older I plan to go over with them informed consent. I want them to know what that means and what their rights are.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 20, 2016 13:27:23 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I do blame the flight attendant. No one should be sitting next to a minor when there are empty seats on the plane. Yes, they can't watch every second but the ball was definitely dropped here. The flight attendant is so conditioned to not offend that she left a child in a situation that was clearly wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 13:29:56 GMT -5
I think I understand why Miss Tequila wants to understand why the girl didn't scream. If I'm right, it's so that Miss Tequila can try to ensure that her girls would be more likely to do something immediately to defend themselves or make the predator stop some kind of way. If only she could understand why a girl wouldn't react strongly and immediately, she might be able to coach her girls better. The problem is that, no one, not even adults, know exactly how they would react in any given situation. We think we do, but we really don't.
I have a neighbor who knew I was having my house painted a few years ago. He saw DD outside and told her how they'd had their living room painted recently and invited her to step inside the door to see it. Then he blocked the door and propositioned her, trying to get her to agree to have sex with him. He never touched her, but he's a stocky man and blocking the door intimidated her and he was insisting that she agree, offering her money, offering to take care of her baby. DD was upset and crying when she got back home and told me what he'd done. I went outside and confronted him. He admitted what he did, but said he was asking "for a friend". I can't describe how angry I was. I came back inside to talk to DD again and when I was walking down the hall I heard him come in my house and start coming down the hall behind me. I was already SOOO angry and him daring to follow me into my home took me to a whole new level. I was too mad to be scared, mad enough that I seriously considered shooting him and wondered about the odds of me being able to avoid going to jail, given the circumstances. But shooting him would have traumatized DD even more since she's afraid of guns and she was my priority in that moment. So, I turned around and looked him in the eye and told him if he didn't get the fuck out of my house ..... well, you know. He turned around and walked back out. I'm not proud of it, but I REALLY wanted to shoot him. It was all very ugly.
So, my point with this long ass story is that my daughter was 21yo when this happened, not a young kid. This particular neighbor is the one that I would give my house keys to when I left town, in case something went wrong while I was away. My kids didn't spend time inside their house, but if there was ever an emergency, that's the house they would have gone to first for help. He and I or his wife and I would stand outside and chat all the time if we saw each other outside. We didn't hang out socially, but we were friendly neighbors that supposedly looked out for one another. So I understood why DD, even though she was grown, didn't fight him to get out of his house. She was still young enough to see him as something akin to an authority figure, like she always had. He'd abused my and her trust to get her in the house in the first place and I think the abuse of trust is what enraged me the most. I seriously doubt he would have been as bold especially following me into my house, if I'd been a man instead of a woman. And I can't help but wonder if he was lusting after her the whole time he was watching her grow up, even though DD says that was the first time he did or said anything inappropriate. Just the thought still makes my blood boil.
We give our kids conflicting messages about being nice, about adults in positions of authority over them, about who's trustworthy and who's not and sometimes we get it wrong, so it's no surprise that they can get caught off guard and not know what to do.
ETA: Gee whiz, you all posted 2 more pages while I was typing! Now I gotta go back and catch up!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 13:51:39 GMT -5
Can I ask about this? I think this also may be a source of the dramatically different point of views and not understanding the other perspective. I've heard this before, and I can truly say I don't understand it. (I guess it means I wasn't raised this way). What and how were you taught this, by whom? ETA: asking finnime but if anyone has answers I'd love to hear them. I don't think I was taught to not make a scene. I think it's just a part of who I am to not want to draw attention to myself. I don't dress flashy even when I get all glammed up, I just don't like extra attention. I don't even want to be a part of a group that's boistrous and drawing attention, even in a situation where it's ok. I'm easily embarrassed even when there's no reason to be. Even if I'm in trouble, if I think I can get out of it myself without causing a scene, that's the first thing I'm inclined to try. I'm the most reserved person in my family and one of the quietest, I don't think they taught me to be like that, it's just me.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 20, 2016 13:52:24 GMT -5
If societal conditioning - that there's something a woman can or should do to control the situation - weren't so strong, there would also be posts like:
OMG, I'm the mom of boys. What created a perv like this and how can I prevent this in my boys? What happened to this man to make him like this and can I make sure it doesn't happen to my sons? What do we need to watch out for in young men to prevent them developing into predators? The story mentions a male witness. Why would a man see a young girl being groped with a tear running down her face and do nothing? A man apparently saw this happen. What can we do to teach people that it's OK and even good to step in and protect others?
And I could go on and on. We don't have posters asking these questions because the unconscious bias is that men are a certain way and it's up to women to stop them from being that way.
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