If my kids were going to regular school...

[DagnyT]

The people I have talked to are more upset about the locker rooms and showers. Should transgender teens who have not had surgery to change their sex parts be taking showers with people of the opposite biological sex at public schools? Because President Obama has indicated that they should.

[Deleted]

May 13, 2016 20:56:52 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

May 13, 2016 20:51:13 GMT -5 oped said:

Our country has gone insane. Transgendered people have been using whatever bathroom they choose for ... Ever... Not to mention women using men's when it's convenient, taking other gender kids into bathrooms, whatever... It's only now that certain jackasses want to change things to make it illegal for what has always just happened to happen...

Then why has it suddenly become a problem?

I blame Facebook.

[midjd]

First, nothing I can find nothing that gives the president the authority to send out an edict concerning what bathroom someone uses.



Next, since this is concerning public schools, assuming this is a pressing issue, it is a state or local issue, not a federal issue.

.
He didn't. The Department of Education and DOJ issued a set of best practice guidelines for public schools. They're not forcing schools to do anything, just possibly cutting off federal education funding if they don't comply (just like they do for any of a hundred other mandates). 

You seem to have strong opinions about accepting government money, I'd think this was something you could get behind. I'm sure there will be some states that say no thanks to the money.

[Deleted]

May 13, 2016 20:59:25 GMT -5 DagnyT said:

The people I have talked to are more upset about the locker rooms and showers. Should transgender teens who have not had surgery to change their sex parts be taking showers with people of the opposite biological sex at public schools? Because President Obama has indicated that they should.

Yeah.  I would like to speak up on the entire public showering humiliations of high school.  My vote is separate shower stalls instead of the community shower. 

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 20:59:25 GMT -5 DagnyT said:

The people I have talked to are more upset about the locker rooms and showers. Should transgender teens who have not had surgery to change their sex parts be taking showers with people of the opposite biological sex at public schools? Because President Obama has indicated that they should.

Why sure! Why not? We wouldn't want to make anyone feel "uncomfortable".

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 21:02:28 GMT -5 midjd said:

First, nothing I can find nothing that gives the president the authority to send out an edict concerning what bathroom someone uses.



Next, since this is concerning public schools, assuming this is a pressing issue, it is a state or local issue, not a federal issue.

.
He didn't. The Department of Education and DOJ issued a set of best practice guidelines for public schools. They're not forcing schools to do anything, just possibly cutting off federal education funding if they don't comply (just like they do for any of a hundred other mandates). 

You seem to have strong opinions about accepting government money, I'd think this was something you could get behind. I'm sure there will be some states that say no thanks to the money.

You're damn right! I'm all for it....right after they quit confiscating the money in the first place.

I don't care for the myriad other strings attached to the money either.

[Deleted]

May 13, 2016 21:02:28 GMT -5 midjd said:

First, nothing I can find nothing that gives the president the authority to send out an edict concerning what bathroom someone uses.



Next, since this is concerning public schools, assuming this is a pressing issue, it is a state or local issue, not a federal issue.

.
He didn't. The Department of Education and DOJ issued a set of best practice guidelines for public schools. They're not forcing schools to do anything, just possibly cutting off federal education funding if they don't comply (just like they do for any of a hundred other mandates). 

You seem to have strong opinions about accepting government money, I'd think this was something you could get behind. I'm sure there will be some states that say no thanks to the money.

It is not free money that is being turned down.  The federal government gets it from somewhere and if part of that somewhere is Tennessee then he is paying the money  to schools who do what he disagrees with.   You argument is a dishonest argument and I expect you know that being an attorney and probably having some training in honest vs dishonest arguments.

[Kolt!]

Actually I've never seen a bathroom with just a urinal. 

Sure a men's bathroom has a urinal for peeing but they don't ONLY have a urinal in the restroom as sometimes a man's gotta poop and a urinal can't be used for that. ALSO, transmen sometimes use STP's (stand to pee devices) or have had surgery therefore, they can stand to pee which in return means YES they can use a urinal.

ALSO, I know of cismen that even pee sitting down, therefore, a transwoman going into a woman's restroom without a urinal can still pee sitting down... but as in a home a toilet seat can be lifted. 

Literally, each restroom can be used for both genders. Unisex bathrooms can be used for both genders as well. 

[Kolt!]

I didn't know community showers in high school were still a thing? Most of the schools around where I'm at got rid of those and kids do not have to shower, or if they do THEY MUST wear a bathing suit now. 

Or they have private stalls. 

[DagnyT]

May 13, 2016 21:02:31 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 13, 2016 20:59:25 GMT -5 DagnyT said:

The people I have talked to are more upset about the locker rooms and showers. Should transgender teens who have not had surgery to change their sex parts be taking showers with people of the opposite biological sex at public schools? Because President Obama has indicated that they should.

Yeah.  I would like to speak up on the entire public showering humiliations of high school.  My vote is separate shower stalls instead of the community shower. 

But since a lot of public middle schools and high schools have community showers, should these students be showering together? Because President Obama and the Justice Department have said that they should. I did not see them saying that schools with community showers are exempt or that the federal government was going to rain down money on public schools to build new showering facilities, so I guess he thinks it is ok. Of course, it does not affect his daughters since they are in private schools, not public schools.

[Deleted]

I looked it up and apparently most places they have gone by the wayside. Apparently a while ago they stopped the mandatory most places under threats of lawsuits and once they weren't mandatory, fewer and fewer people have been using them, so some are thinking of removing them all together... 

Maybr they could just convert them to 3-4 stall showers. People might use them more, all around. 

[Kolt!]

May 13, 2016 20:34:26 GMT -5 @hickle said:

May 13, 2016 20:24:07 GMT -5 mamasita99 said:

Why should transgender students be excluded from the same protections and freedoms that other students receive just by being an American citizen? Why shouldn't the federal government stand up for them?

giramomma said:
"How is it going to create more problems?

If the feds don't stand up for transgendered students, who is going to? "

I would stand up and say transgendered students should be treated with kindness and common courtesy if I were asked or if I were in a situation where it was appropriat. I would tell my family members that transgenders should be respected if the situation ever arose where that was appropriate. 


So I think I would stand up for transgenders.  Why does  giramomma think no one besides government would stand up for transgenders?  Would she not?  Or if she would why does she think she is so unique and good that only she will and others won't?

I ACTUALLY have a really hard time believing this is something you would do. When on the forums alone when transgender people were being disrespected you piped right up saying it's perfectly okay because it's freedom of speech. 

The government should protect the rights of their citizens. It's important that they do so as well. You can't always rely on the citizens to "stand up" for everyone's rights. This is clear as well because some would not. 

[tallguy]

May 13, 2016 21:04:02 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

May 13, 2016 21:02:28 GMT -5 midjd said:

.
He didn't. The Department of Education and DOJ issued a set of best practice guidelines for public schools. They're not forcing schools to do anything, just possibly cutting off federal education funding if they don't comply (just like they do for any of a hundred other mandates). 

You seem to have strong opinions about accepting government money, I'd think this was something you could get behind. I'm sure there will be some states that say no thanks to the money.

You're damn right! I'm all for it....right after they quit confiscating the money in the first place.

I don't care for the myriad other strings attached to the money either.

Better be careful there.  You do know that your state is a net "taker" of funds from government, right?  And has been for every year that I have found data for.

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 21:22:25 GMT -5 tallguy said:

May 13, 2016 21:04:02 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

You're damn right! I'm all for it....right after they quit confiscating the money in the first place.

I don't care for the myriad other strings attached to the money either.

Better be careful there.  You do know that your state is a net "taker" of funds from government, right?  And has been for every year that I have found data for.

Not by my choice.

[DagnyT]

May 13, 2016 21:18:27 GMT -5 oped said:

I looked it up and apparently most places they have gone by the wayside. Apparently a while ago they stopped the mandatory most places under threats of lawsuits and once they weren't mandatory, fewer and fewer people have been using them, so some are thinking of removing them all together... 

Maybr they could just convert them to 3-4 stall showers. People might use them more, all around. 

But where they do exist, the president and Justice Department did not exempt these schools, so they will have to shower together or risk losing the federal tax dollars that educate all kids, including the transgender kids.

[Deleted]

They don't have to shower at all. That's the point. 

[Deleted]

May 13, 2016 21:18:27 GMT -5 oped said:

I looked it up and apparently most places they have gone by the wayside. Apparently a while ago they stopped the mandatory most places under threats of lawsuits and once they weren't mandatory, fewer and fewer people have been using them, so some are thinking of removing them all together... 

Maybr they could just convert them to 3-4 stall showers. People might use them more, all around. 

When I was in Jr High back in the mid-80's our locker room had a community shower and two individual shower stalls.  Even back then there was always lines by the individual ones.  If I couldn't get in one of those I would splash water on my head to try and get away with skipping the shower altogether.  HATED showering at school.  My son told me the other day that it's one of his biggest fears about going to high school!  I'm pretty sure the school he's going to has individual showers if they even have to shower at all.  He's only required to take a semester of PE all 4 years.

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 21:25:33 GMT -5 DagnyT said:

May 13, 2016 21:18:27 GMT -5 oped said:

I looked it up and apparently most places they have gone by the wayside. Apparently a while ago they stopped the mandatory most places under threats of lawsuits and once they weren't mandatory, fewer and fewer people have been using them, so some are thinking of removing them all together... 

Maybr they could just convert them to 3-4 stall showers. People might use them more, all around. 

But where they do exist, the president and Justice Department did not exempt these schools, so they will have to shower together or risk losing the federal tax dollars that educate all kids, including the transgender kids.

I think Penn State had a communal shower....and we all know how that turned out.

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 21:26:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 13, 2016 21:18:27 GMT -5 oped said:

I looked it up and apparently most places they have gone by the wayside. Apparently a while ago they stopped the mandatory most places under threats of lawsuits and once they weren't mandatory, fewer and fewer people have been using them, so some are thinking of removing them all together... 

Maybr they could just convert them to 3-4 stall showers. People might use them more, all around. 

When I was in Jr High back in the mid-80's our locker room had a community shower and two individual shower stalls.  Even back then there was always lines by the individual ones.  If I couldn't get in one of those I would splash water on my head to try and get away with skipping the shower altogether.  HATED showering at school.  My son told me the other day that it's one of his biggest fears about going to high school!  I'm pretty sure the school he's going to has individual showers if they even have to shower at all.  He's only required to take a semester of PE all 4 years.

Would you have been more comfortable with guys in there with you?

[Kolt!]

They really have slowly gotten away from showering in High Schools. 

It's also the child's choice. Most transgender students aren't going to shower naked. They're hardly comfortable with the parts that make them different than the gender they identify with to the point they're not about to want to display themselves to the public. 

I believe no school is even allowed anymore to require the child to shower. They've had to get rid of the showering being mandatory for many reasons which had nothing to do with transgender kids. 

[Deleted]

It would be most comfortable for everyone if non mandatory showers could take place in individual stall... It's not hard. 

[imawino]

May 13, 2016 21:25:33 GMT -5 DagnyT said:

May 13, 2016 21:18:27 GMT -5 oped said:

I looked it up and apparently most places they have gone by the wayside. Apparently a while ago they stopped the mandatory most places under threats of lawsuits and once they weren't mandatory, fewer and fewer people have been using them, so some are thinking of removing them all together... 

Maybr they could just convert them to 3-4 stall showers. People might use them more, all around. 

But where they do exist, the president and Justice Department did not exempt these schools, so they will have to shower together or risk losing the federal tax dollars that educate all kids, including the transgender kids.

Is there any school in the country where taking a communal shower is mandatory?  because while an open shower may exist in some old schools, I don't know that they are used, and I would very much doubt that it is compulsory.  

[tallguy]

May 13, 2016 21:24:01 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

May 13, 2016 21:22:25 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Better be careful there.  You do know that your state is a net "taker" of funds from government, right?  And has been for every year that I have found data for.

Not by my choice.

Perhaps, but I can't imagine many of your citizens being happy with a 27% reduction in services across the board. 

Obviously it wouldn't be exactly that.  Some would be eliminated entirely while others would be left untouched.  The point remains though that federal monies pay for a lot of things that Tennessee taxpayers would either have to pick up the costs for or do without.  And you likely don't get to choose to a very great extent which would go.  

[Deleted]

May 13, 2016 21:28:25 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

May 13, 2016 21:26:49 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

When I was in Jr High back in the mid-80's our locker room had a community shower and two individual shower stalls.  Even back then there was always lines by the individual ones.  If I couldn't get in one of those I would splash water on my head to try and get away with skipping the shower altogether.  HATED showering at school.  My son told me the other day that it's one of his biggest fears about going to high school!  I'm pretty sure the school he's going to has individual showers if they even have to shower at all.  He's only required to take a semester of PE all 4 years.

Would you have been more comfortable with guys in there with you?

Probably not.  But I don't think I could have been LESS comfortable.  I don't mind sharing a bathroom with men, it doesn't make me uncomfortable when a transgender is in there with me at all.  But showering together, I prefer to be on a more personal basis for.

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 21:31:22 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 13, 2016 21:28:25 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Would you have been more comfortable with guys in there with you?

Probably not.  But I don't think I could have been LESS comfortable.  I don't mind sharing a bathroom with men, it doesn't make me uncomfortable when a transgender is in there with me at all.  But showering together, I prefer to be on a more personal basis for.

To be honest, I'd find it creepy. I'm with you. I prefer to shower alone.

[imawino]

May 13, 2016 21:27:25 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

May 13, 2016 21:25:33 GMT -5 DagnyT said:

But where they do exist, the president and Justice Department did not exempt these schools, so they will have to shower together or risk losing the federal tax dollars that educate all kids, including the transgender kids.

I think Penn State had a communal shower....and we all know how that turned out.

Yes.  It turned out horribly.  So I guess we need to outlaw penises in the men's locker room.

[Kolt!]

Nobody in my High School even used the showers with even having a bathing suit on. Nobody was comfortable enough to even do so with a bathing suit on. And my cousin who is a Junior says it's the same for her PE classes too, nobody uses them. 

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 21:32:44 GMT -5 imawino said:

May 13, 2016 21:27:25 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

I think Penn State had a communal shower....and we all know how that turned out.

Yes.  It turned out horribly.  So I guess we need to outlaw penises in the men's locker room.

A group shower probably wasn't the best idea in human history. Wouldn't you agree?

[Deleted]

May 13, 2016 21:32:47 GMT -5 Kolt! said:

Nobody in my High School even used the showers with even having a bathing suit on. Nobody was comfortable enough to even do so with a bathing suit on. And my cousin who is a Junior says it's the same for her PE classes too, nobody uses them. 

Back when I was in school they DID force you to shower.  Man I hated phy-ed.  I'm so glad that has changed now.

[gregintenn]

May 13, 2016 21:32:44 GMT -5 imawino said:

May 13, 2016 21:27:25 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

I think Penn State had a communal shower....and we all know how that turned out.

Yes.  It turned out horribly.  So I guess we need to outlaw penises in the men's locker room.

Yeah! Let's put em all in the girl's locker room.