anyone bought a prom dress lately?

[finnime]

Verrrrrrrrrrry innnterrrrrrrrrrresting.

And too common a set of issues as well. I see the root of this as an absence of shared commitment - to the family, the future, the "us" instead of "me". There is no real problem if beergut and GF agree that they will operate independently. But he's already living there, a part of a family life, without having a joint reconciliation financially.

beergut , you and GF need need need NEED to talk. And understand that she is not just one individual, but the responsible adult for 4 people (including herself). No point in ignoring that - it keeps sneaking up from behind and biting you. I see that you genuinely like the kids and would like to help with some things on an uncommitted basis - but that is not working. And GF, as a mother, does not separate her income from her kids; she can't as a single mother.

The dress cost is easy - nothing, whatever amount you want, or an open wallet. And I personally think it's okay if you just want to mutter to us about how much it costs to support teenagers, or solicit ideas about spending less, or even agree with GF that you can't commit to any $  for the kids (if you move out - if you continue to live as a family you must participate in the family). But you cannot do anything (or nothing!) without affecting the children. Also, there are three kids. Their mother recognizes that, but I think you separate them in your own thinking. You would like to support the potential you see in the middle child, but I don't know how you can do that without the other 2 getting a share of whatever you and GF agree on.

This is a really big deal. No matter what you two agree on, there is only so much income available. GF has a good income, but it must support 4. Another poster proposed you two figure out the costs of senior year in high school and who will pay how much for what in total. That's a good start. Just expand it a bit to include the remaining dependent years of all the kids. And if you really don't want to undertake that burden, fine, but you can't live there also. Too much hurt for kids.

The great thing is you can be the Dutch uncle if you like with a definite end in sight. They're growing up fast even if they are expensive.

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2016 7:09:40 GMT -5 finnime said:

The great thing is you can be the Dutch uncle if you like with a definite end in sight. They're growing up fast even if they are expensive.

There's not necessarily a "definite end in sight".   I watched my dear, well-meaning sister and BIL fork over $$$ to help their 3 daughters after they'd already sent them through college- paying credit card debts, paying the vet bills for one's sick dog, paying to send one through nursing school after she found out (surprise!) that she couldn't make a living with her Psych degree, propping up one after she had a baby at age 19.  They all seem to be settled in good, stable marriages now and the 2 who are working outside the home have excellent jobs but it was a long road.

Anyway- I agree with the others that this is something beergut and his GF need to resolve- with outside counseling if needed.  I was in a marriage where money was a constant battleground.  It never got any better- it just got worse till we divorced.

[Formerly SK]

She nets >6K?  What's her mortgage?  Because someone netting that amount should have no problem with a one time $500 dress.  Heck, we make less than that and spend $500 EVERY month on music and sports for the kids.

I can't believe so many people are buying into the idea she's "struggling."  

[Deleted]

SK I'm just not buying he knows exactly what she makes but not any idea where it goes...

In the situation I'd move out until there was a commitment toward shared goals.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"SK I'm just not buying he knows exactly what she makes but not any idea where it goes...":::...

Depends on what level of "know" we are looking to achieve.  If she really refuses to show a budget, then he is left to his own assumptions.  He doesn't have to know down to the penny what every little thing she buys costs.  But if discretionary things keep showing up, yet she is crying poor all the time, he isn't wrong for assuming that the two are related.  Basic financial health dictates evaluating and questioning expenses one has accepted as "committed".

Hell, if the base of my argument was that I was struggling because my sweet salary was eaten up by household expenses, I'd have already had the budget proving it laminated on the fridge!  What doesn't she want him to see?

Until we know some numbers, nobody can make a fair decision.  We may find out that the household only actually requires $3,000 - $3,500 depending.  Well if the month she decides to spend $3k on discretionary spending is the same month that swings to the $3,500 for obligations, one gets a LOT farther blaming "a higher electric bill" than "I splurged on their back to school clothes".

And there are two budgets... there is the "here is the sum of the categories of our expenses" and then there is the "here is what actually leaves my bank account.  I think we've seen plenty of posters who were shocked by the spread between the former and the latter.

There is at LEAST $8k/mo funding this household (based on her confirmed net, and his confirmed "minimum" contribution).  Their "newest" car is about a decade old.  Where the heck is that money going?  I get teenagers and all, but still...

[gooddecisions]

I don't think Beergut has disclosed how much she actually makes, only that it's "more than $6K net/month" and she makes about $20K/year more than him.

It sounds like she has a nice home plus 4 kids- a 13 yo, 15 yo, 17 yo and one married and in the marines. Even if she is making $20K/year more than Beergut, supporting 4 kids, herself and the roof over everyone's head is going to leave her with less than him every month. As someone else pointed out at least $500 goes out every month for activities and sports. Kids are expensive and single people who haven't experienced it first-hand don't always realize it. Not that BG isn't getting some insight into it living there for over a year, but since he isn't able to see the full financial picture, he really doesn't know.

It would be nice to know what we're really working with. Is that $6K/month verified and does it include child support- or is it your best guess? I thought at one point he said he made around $50K and she made around $75K, but really can't remember. Obviously $75K does not net $6K/month unless you're adding in child support, which he also said isn't paid in full every month. So...

[whoisjohngalt]

Feb 12, 2016 11:19:56 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

FIL says people don't fight about money. They use it as a proxy for the other things they are fighting about. This is why these threads always roll around to where are you going with this relationship? Do you share the same values? Does this person challenge/help you to be better? Is there space for compromise? Are you able to discuss things? Does the good outweigh the bad? Are these issues temporary or structural?

It sounds neither of you trust the other.

I'd agree about 99%.

When I didn't want my husband giving money to his parents, it was about me not wanting him to give money to his parents.  Now that we don't anymore, we don't fight about it anymore!

Now we just fight about parenting and kids!

[techguy]

OMG, her poon must be really good to put up with all this drama!

[Blonde Granny]

She just bought a new or somewhat new car. She did it on her own without consulting him on the price, interest rate etc. IIRC, he didn't like that one bit. Going way back in beerguts posts, I seem to remember there was a guy living there before him. I wouldn't bet the farm though on my being accurate.

[8 Bit WWBG]

Very interesting point about the source of the net.  If she is counting on $1,500/mo CS and that dries up, then there is a bigger problem.

From beergut's perspective, I can see being apprehensive that kicking in a fixed contribution will in no way preclude him from still being asked for subsidies.  I totally get how he might be thinking "right now, I pay <x>, but in the future, I'll pay <y> and STILL get asked to pay <x>.  If he is disputing the validity of some of what is contained in <x> in the first place, then he is not going to want to add <y>.  It may not be the best outlook, but it isn't surprising either.

[beergut]

Feb 12, 2016 14:52:47 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

She just bought a new or somewhat new car. She did it on her own without consulting him on the price, interest rate etc. IIRC, he didn't like that one bit. Going way back in beerguts posts, I seem to remember there was a guy living there before him. I wouldn't bet the farm though on my being accurate.

What part of "stay out of my threads" did you not understand?

 You don't contribute anything except inaccuracies where this situation is concerned, and it is getting tiring. 

[beergut]

Feb 12, 2016 14:56:45 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

Very interesting point about the source of the net.  If she is counting on $1,500/mo CS and that dries up, then there is a bigger problem.

From beergut's perspective, I can see being apprehensive that kicking in a fixed contribution will in no way preclude him from still being asked for subsidies.  I totally get how he might be thinking "right now, I pay <x>, but in the future, I'll pay <y> and STILL get asked to pay <x>.  If he is disputing the validity of some of what is contained in <x> in the first place, then he is not going to want to add <y>.  It may not be the best outlook, but it isn't surprising either.

Very close to accurate.

My biggest concern is that contributing a set amount every month does nothing about her inability to live within her means. Giving someone with that issue more 'means' doesn't solve the problem. 

There is hope, though. With the 16 YO now driving, auto insurance rates have gone up significantly. When I told GF about the new rates, she was aghast. I explained that there were several options available to her, including just going with liability coverage on the oldest car or increasing the deductible, but she insists she wants full coverage on both kids' cars. 

However, she did sit the kids down and talk to them about how much auto insurance costs now, and what the options are going forward. The 17 YO getting a job and paying for her auto insurance is one thing they discussed. 16 YO told me the whole story when I arrived home yesterday. GF realizing she doesn't have to do everything for her kids, and they can begin to pay for their own things is a sign of progress. 

[Deleted]

Just because she asks for more doesn't mean you have to give it. You say you already contributed your monthly amount.

Insurance is more expensive when everyone has their own car. Is your car on her policy?

[beergut]

Feb 12, 2016 23:08:45 GMT -5 oped said:

Insurance is more expensive when everyone has their own car. Is your car on her policy?

Hell no.

[Deleted]

So the kids are all part time drivers on older vehicles. And girls. How much did it go up?

How did you know girlfriends rates before her?

[Works4me]

Full coverage on older vehicles for teenagers is insane. Especially because if it is utilized the rates will increase dramatically. Much smarter to "self-insure" however it sounds like she may not be able to properly manage sinking funds. Does she understand the numbers of it? 

[Blonde Granny]

Feb 12, 2016 22:56:42 GMT -5 beergut said:

Feb 12, 2016 14:52:47 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

She just bought a new or somewhat new car. She did it on her own without consulting him on the price, interest rate etc. IIRC, he didn't like that one bit. Going way back in beerguts posts, I seem to remember there was a guy living there before him. I wouldn't bet the farm though on my being accurate.

What part of "stay out of my threads" did you not understand?

 You don't contribute anything except inaccuracies where this situation is concerned, and it is getting tiring. 

You can block/ignore posts from mods as you can anyone else.

[zibazinski]

Beer, are you aware that all your old posts can be seen by all and that some posters have amazing memories?

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"My biggest concern is that contributing a set amount every month does nothing about her inability to live within her means. Giving someone with that issue more 'means' doesn't solve the problem.":::...

Agreed.  Money alone doesn't solve money problems.  And adding expenses to an already stretched budget is the opposite of solving money problems.

So where IS the money going?

[Deleted]

No one has suggested that a set sum will solve all the problems. Just that it is the way to give her the means and opportunity to realistically start budgeting for her own wants, rather than relying upon the broken system of having to beg and manipulate for them. It would give her an honest chance to manage her own needs and extras rather than this dishonest system set up to give her short term rewards for appearing unable to be financially secure, while allowing beer to privately judge her as wanting thus giving him reason to dismiss her long term desire for marriage.

[tallguy]

Feb 13, 2016 12:20:58 GMT -5 oped said:

No one has suggested that a set sum will solve all the problems. Just that it is the way to give her the means and opportunity to realistically start budgeting for her own wants, rather than relying upon the broken system of having to beg and manipulate for them. It would give her an honest chance to manage her own needs and extras rather than this dishonest system set up to give her short term rewards for appearing unable to be financially secure, while allowing beer to privately judge her as wanting thus giving him reason to dismiss her long term desire for marriage.

Nailed it.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Feb 13, 2016 12:20:58 GMT -5 oped said:

No one has suggested that a set sum will solve all the problems. Just that it is the way to give her the means and opportunity to realistically start budgeting for her own wants, rather than relying upon the broken system of having to beg and manipulate for them. It would give her an honest chance to manage her own needs and extras rather than this dishonest system set up to give her short term rewards for appearing unable to be financially secure, while allowing beer to privately judge her as wanting thus giving him reason to dismiss her long term desire for marriage.

I'm going to flip this around to another "what if". GF doesn't want to set a budget; she doesn't want to live within her means. Right now she doesn't have to. Let's say she does a 180 on her financial perspective, takes beergut's pay check (not that he would acquiesce, just a hypothetical). Here's what happened in my first marriage:

XH doesn't grasp budgets, doesn't grasp needs vs. wants, doesn't grasp that as an adult his wants come second to the children's needs. So, based on his lack of participation in adulthood, the deal was I got his entire paycheck and managed our household money. He got to keep all tips that he made from pizza delivery to spend however he wanted. Because he had no opinions (again, beergut doesn't seem like that), he had no say in how I managed the money. Then, he became annoyed because he didn't have enough fun money. He wanted new cars, new BMX bikes, more BMX racing, more car accessories, tattoos, etc. I had to be the bad guy. We cannot have those things because how will afford food, rent, insurance, utilities? He couldn't understand why I was so mean.


Neither GF nor beergut want to be mean. Both want their control over their separate pots of money. Merging funds doesn't solve the problem either. If beergut manages the money, they'll be far more financially solvent and GF will be upset. If GF manages the money, she'll likely not be successful in beergut's version of success and then he'll be unhappy.


She doesn't want an honest chance at budgeting. She's not unhappy. My XH literally brought home a new-for-sale car, parked it in front of our duplex and said to me, "If I can have this, I'll be happy." There's no working with that for both adults to be happy. I don't know how beergut's supposed to work with someone who isn't willing to even discuss finances with him. It doesn't even seem like beergut's unhappy. He's frustrated because the relationship is at an impasse because of the lack of teamwork on the household finances, but because he's still in control of his finances, he's not unhappy. 

[Deleted]

She might not. To me, that's the end then. Legitimately. Our financial goals and expectations are not the same, I can't marry you, we need to dissolve this relationship.

That is at least a fair 'test', a fair evaluation.

Setting up a system where her not having enough money and then begging and manipulating him I s the best way for her to GET money from him... And then judging her on her lack of financial sense and her begging and manipulating (which is how the system is set up to work currently) is NOT and honest test. She doesn't even know her finances are impacting his long term marriage decisions.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Feb 13, 2016 15:44:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Yeah that part bothered me a lot in the last thread. If you are far enough along to be talking marriage then deal breakers should be on the table as well.

I laid out exactly what DH needed to do if he wanted me to consider marrying him.  He deserved the opportunity to decide if he wanted to do the work or not.

If he hadn't that would have been the end of it. It would not have been fair to either of us to move forward.  We deserve to be with people we are compatible with.

The girlfriend should be told up front I can't marry you unless things change financially and how they need to change.

It's unfair to dangle the promise of marriage while inside you know there is not a chance in hell of it happening.  She should not have to be able to read beers mind.

If her changing her finances is that damn important then its important enough to issue an ultimatum and risk it ending.  Then both are free to find more suitable partners.

If you're not going to say anything then shut up and learn to live with it.  It must not be that important if you can't discuss it.

[andi9899]

Feb 13, 2016 16:18:42 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Feb 13, 2016 15:44:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Yeah that part bothered me a lot in the last thread. If you are far enough along to be talking marriage then deal breakers should be on the table as well.

I laid out exactly what DH needed to do if he wanted me to consider marrying him.  He deserved the opportunity to decide if he wanted to do the work or not.

If he hadn't that would have been the end of it. It would not have been fair to either of us to move forward.  We deserve to be with people we are compatible with.

The girlfriend should be told up front I can't marry you unless things change financially and how they need to change.

It's unfair to dangle the promise of marriage while inside you know there is not a chance in hell of it happening.  She should not have to be able to read beers mind.

If her changing her finances is that damn important then its important enough to issue an ultimatum and risk it ending.  Then both are free to find more suitable partners.

If you're not going to say anything then shut up and learn to live with it.  It must not be that important if you can't discuss it.

Exactly!

[beergut]

Feb 13, 2016 12:20:58 GMT -5 oped said:

No one has suggested that a set sum will solve all the problems. Just that it is the way to give her the means and opportunity to realistically start budgeting for her own wants, rather than relying upon the broken system of having to beg and manipulate for them. It would give her an honest chance to manage her own needs and extras rather than this dishonest system set up to give her short term rewards for appearing unable to be financially secure, while allowing beer to privately judge her as wanting thus giving him reason to dismiss her long term desire for marriage.

 I'm not sure if you understand what WWBG and I are saying. 

 If someone doesn't budget, they aren't going to start budgeting just because you give them more money.

 She already has the money to spend on her 'own wants' right now, but she doesn't have a budget as far as I can see. She isn't going to suddenly become financially responsible  and start budgeting because I directly give her money each month. 

When I set the timetable for the wedding, it was a compromise. She wanted to get married, I wanted to wait to get used to the idea, and to make sure I was comfortable with being a stepfather to her three (or four, though I don't think I'll be much of a father figure to an adult already out of the house and in the Marines) children. It was only after we'd been living together that I began to see the full picture of her finances, and realized she needs help. It isn't like I have a secret ultimatum of "if she doesn't fix this, I'm not going to marry her". I know what our timetable is, so I know I need to help her get her finances under control so we can both enter our marriage happy. 

[beergut]

Feb 12, 2016 23:21:53 GMT -5 oped said:

So the kids are all part time drivers on older vehicles. And girls. How much did it go up?

How did you know girlfriends rates before her?

$170 a month


 She has her auto insurance through my firm. Her agent walked into my office and dropped the new quotes on my desk. 

[zibazinski]

Feb 14, 2016 2:09:35 GMT -5 beergut said:

Feb 13, 2016 12:20:58 GMT -5 oped said:

No one has suggested that a set sum will solve all the problems. Just that it is the way to give her the means and opportunity to realistically start budgeting for her own wants, rather than relying upon the broken system of having to beg and manipulate for them. It would give her an honest chance to manage her own needs and extras rather than this dishonest system set up to give her short term rewards for appearing unable to be financially secure, while allowing beer to privately judge her as wanting thus giving him reason to dismiss her long term desire for marriage.

 I'm not sure if you understand what WWBG and I are saying. 

 If someone doesn't budget, they aren't going to start budgeting just because you give them more money.

 She already has the money to spend on her 'own wants' right now, but she doesn't have a budget as far as I can see. She isn't going to suddenly become financially responsible  and start budgeting because I directly give her money each month. 

When I set the timetable for the wedding, it was a compromise. She wanted to get married, I wanted to wait to get used to the idea, and to make sure I was comfortable with being a stepfather to her three (or four, though I don't think I'll be much of a father figure to an adult already out of the house and in the Marines) children. It was only after we'd been living together that I began to see the full picture of her finances, and realized she needs help. It isn't like I have a secret ultimatum of "if she doesn't fix this, I'm not going to marry her". I know what our timetable is, so I know I need to help her get her finances under control so we can both enter our marriage happy. 

If she also knows your timetable them SHE needs to get her finances under control. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. No different than someone who really doesn't want to lose weight, stop drinking, stop smoking. They have to really want to. All the nagging in the world won't fix them until they want to be fixed.

[finnime]

Feb 14, 2016 2:09:35 GMT -5 beergut said:

Feb 13, 2016 12:20:58 GMT -5 oped said:

No one has suggested that a set sum will solve all the problems. Just that it is the way to give her the means and opportunity to realistically start budgeting for her own want...

 

 If someone doesn't budget, they aren't going to start budgeting just because you give them more money.





Hanlon's Razor. "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance." Or, where I formerly worked, "Assume goodness of intentions."

Maybe GF just does not know how to budget, really and realistically. I have two children. DD at almost 30 knows how to talk about budgets and budgeting, but at core, does not get it. DS at almost 22 has known from toddlerhood how to budget both money and time.

I suggest, beergut, that if you want GF to do/not do something, you talk with her, plan with her and do it with her.

[zibazinski]

Or suggest a third party help her budget. I wouldn't share my financial info with someone I felt unsure of either.