GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Feb 6, 2016 23:19:28 GMT -5
I don't know all the history -- is the bio father out of the picture?
If he's around, it seems more appropriate for him to pay, not the mother's boyfriend.
I mean, wouldn't a bio father want to be part of his daughter's prom preparations?
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Feb 7, 2016 0:11:13 GMT -5
Wish I were there could make her a beautiful one, I made some out of satin and lace for DD, wish I could post a picture. Guess I'm bragging and of course she did not do normal things but it was gorgeous believe me.
But I guess I'm old and no one does stuff like that anymore. My mom sewed my winter formal dress, my senior prom dress, and my wedding dress. They were all gorgeous, if you ask me, and I wish I had her skills. Best thing was I was able to get exactly what I wanted.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Feb 7, 2016 1:17:16 GMT -5
Wish I were there could make her a beautiful one, I made some out of satin and lace for DD, wish I could post a picture. Guess I'm bragging and of course she did not do normal things but it was gorgeous believe me.
But I guess I'm old and no one does stuff like that anymore. I asked if she could go the Pretty In Pink route, and buy a dress from a consignment store and sew it into something she wanted, and you would have thought I'd asked if she could grow a second head.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Feb 7, 2016 1:22:09 GMT -5
I've been where beergut is more than a few times and I think someone earlier nailed it. I like the idea of just saying "here is my gift" and leaving them to their own devices. If he is like me, he is probably going to end up helping, so it might as well not come with the fight. But if they already have their heart set on the $500 dress, then anything less than the full amount won't be good enough. I don't know if she has her heart set on that particular dress, but she has apparently already bought the shoes for it. (I don't understand that thinking, btw, why buy shoes for a dress you haven't bought yet/can't afford to personally buy?)
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Feb 7, 2016 1:23:41 GMT -5
I've been where beergut is more than a few times and I think someone earlier nailed it. I like the idea of just saying "here is my gift" and leaving them to their own devices. If he is like me, he is probably going to end up helping, so it might as well not come with the fight. But if they already have their heart set on the $500 dress, then anything less than the full amount won't be good enough. He was asked to "help". I don't really know what that means, or why it was in "quotes". Is the implication a help request is actually an expectation to pay the whole thing? If I was asked to help - no quotes - I'd reach into my purse, fork over $100, and go back to my book. Another potential response is just to say no. But this simple scenario seemed to have ended in a spat. That seems to have been a really unnecessary outcome. I put help in quotes because with GF, that phrase usually means I pay for most or all of the cost.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Feb 7, 2016 1:29:17 GMT -5
I don't know all the history -- is the bio father out of the picture? If he's around, it seems more appropriate for him to pay, not the mother's boyfriend. I mean, wouldn't a bio father want to be part of his daughter's prom preparations? I suggested to GF that she ask ex-husband/bio father for help, and was laughed off. As to the question of whether he is out of the picture, I'm not sure how to answer that. Financially speaking, he is a deadbeat, underpaying child support, and not paying his portion of medical bills. He shows up at his convenience for certain events during the year. The younger daughter just turned 16, and earned her drivers license last week. He wasn't there for her birthday, but will be going to a get-together at an indoor skydiving place tomorrow.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 7, 2016 1:41:58 GMT -5
DD's prom dress 2 years ago cost $600. I paid 1/2. She had nails/pedicure. We regularly get our nails done together, so it was not a hit to my budget, but all the girls were getting nails done. Plan for the nails and schedule appt at least 3 weeks ahead. As far as limo goes, this is something parents often pay for with an ulterior motive. If you pay for limo, you know the driver, the itinerary and control the time they come home. If you are lucky your HS has a well controlled after party. DN had an after party that cost about $20-30 if that and the school would not let the kids leave on any alternative transportation.
DD sold that dress last year for $300, she gave the girl the dress before she paid 100% and was still owed about $80 at grad. I did not care-do you have any idea how much f'in storage space a prom dress takes up? Unfortunately, my niece's prom dress is now living in that vacated spot. I think my SIL paid for niece's dress (Aunt to niece) SIL only has sons. My son's prom date had her dress paid for by her dad's friend. I thought it was kind of strange, but I think people would change their own prom experience if they could and that is why they open the wallet to pay for this fairytale experience. My DD worked a lot in HS so I could say she had to pay for things and know she could choose to do it. She is not working so much in college>small college town>limited opportunities.
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ohmomto2boys
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Post by ohmomto2boys on Feb 7, 2016 8:31:39 GMT -5
I spent $125 on a prom dress - 30 yrs ago. Crazy. It was actually for when I was a junior, boyfriend was a senior. However, I got appendicitis the day of the prom and had to have emergency surgery. So, I wore the dress for my senior prom. And several years later, I made it into a halloween costume. I got my money's worth.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Feb 7, 2016 9:29:00 GMT -5
My mom was deceased and I only had my dad's help with prom dress shopping. I suppose there were plenty of dresses that cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars, but we only looked at the ones that were $200 or less. I ended up with one for $150 and thought that was a lot. If you start shopping at the $500 price point, there is no coming down. Just like with wedding dresses, her heart will be set on the one she tried on, loved and just happens to be $500.
I told my niece I would sponsor her prom, but may have to rethink that if it's means $1000 (yikes!) She is extremely self-less though and would never ask for that kind of money- not to mention she would rather skip prom and divert the funds to helping with college expenses. Which is exactly why I said she should go and I will pay for it. The conversation started because she couldn't believe how expensive the tickets are.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 7, 2016 9:29:05 GMT -5
I don't know all the history -- is the bio father out of the picture? If he's around, it seems more appropriate for him to pay, not the mother's boyfriend. I mean, wouldn't a bio father want to be part of his daughter's prom preparations? not my dad. Lol. You need some help with rototilling, he's there. Prom, no. He loves us, don't get me wrong. And he was willing to attend the Father-Daughter Dances. I think I even got him to dance with me there once. But it's not his thing.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 7, 2016 9:30:14 GMT -5
May I suggest Macy's?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2016 9:48:25 GMT -5
...:::"I put help in quotes because with GF, that phrase usually means I pay for most or all of the cost.":::...
OK then so serious question, as it is one I've faced many many times.
If this means you've already made the decision that you are going to help, then how are you going to offer that help? I mean, I recognize that in past playing the resentful martyr pretty much taints the help (and then I get mad when DW didn't seem appreciative because hey I did help and the cycle feeds itself). I've really tried to learn from that and accept that if I'm going to give the help, then I should give it graciously, and if I don't want to give the help, then don't give it.
Now obviously, when the other party wants what they want, anything less isn't going to be met with enthusiasm. So dealing with that is never fun. I'm just curious what you want to do here going forward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 9:49:59 GMT -5
I like The Haitian's idea of your providing a flat amount -whatever you're comfortable with.
I don't know all the details- how serious you and GF are, your relative financial situations, whether the daughter will be earning any money for this herself- but I'd be very concerned about the message your GF is sending her daughter. You want nice things, Honey? Just find a man to pay for them.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 7, 2016 10:32:16 GMT -5
$500 for a prom dress is insane. Sorry. It's prom not her wedding day.
Saying she can wear it again is like justifying an expensive wedding dress by saying your daughter will wear it. How many times does that happen?
Prom dresses do go out of style quickly, they are not "investment" pieces. Prom dresses are like bridesmaids dresses, designed to be disposable fashion.
I know a lot of people who went to David's bridal. They have sales all the time and alterations are included.
I must be missing a chick gene because while I enjoyed prom I did not consider it an important milestone in my life worth that much money on the dress alone. I didn't even spend that much on my wedding gown.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2016 10:46:26 GMT -5
I'd love to hear an "after account" of what the whole thing ended up costing. The point about all the other things (hair, nails, meals, rides...) demands repeating. Maybe instead of the dress, beergut could agree to gift something like a nail and hair appointment? Then he isn't paying toward the dress directly, but he is freeing up capital that they can choose to use how they see fit.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 7, 2016 11:21:29 GMT -5
I like to think about the natural process of escalation of desires over the long term. I see it as something parents have some control over if they do it from the start. "If I get my 6 year old this/allow the six year old to do that, what is the 8 year old going to expect, and the 12, 14, etc. Do I want to put myself in the position of saying no to that 16 year old? Then maybe I shouldn't say yes to the 6 year old's desire." I can't imagine a person expecting less for a wedding than a high school prom.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2016 11:46:25 GMT -5
...:::"Once you start googling prom dresses, finding cheaper alternatives, suggestion people sew their own, commenting on the longevity of the chosen style, you are knee deep in the nitty gritty. And if you put the kibosh on the "dream dress" then paying 250 out of 300 is likely less appreciated than $100 (or $200) out of $500.":::...
Another excellent point! People who want what they want ALWAYS have a reason why alternatives just won't work. The really committed ones are able to make you feel bad for getting in their way and even guilty for you even thinking they shouldn't get/keep what they want.
That's the worst. It's fucked with my mindset so deeply. I know it's happening but it is such a deep pattern that in the thick of things, it is very hard to break out of. Apparently there is even a book called "when I say no I feel guilty".
Screw debating it. People like that need to learn when to back off. Debating the situation says to them that you CAN be convinced to give in, and then they lay siege. Spoiler alert: each time you give in, you re-baseline their expectation for what level they have to play to so that they get their desired outcome.
I'm not saying there aren't people out there who can engage in fair and reasonable evaluations of alternatives. I'm just saying figure out who can't be reasoned with, and don't reason with them. I hate thinking of a relationship that way, but maybe it's more just like making sure you are speaking the same language.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Feb 7, 2016 11:47:25 GMT -5
Got my daughters in the January sales from Monsoon (usually too expensive). We are both good at sewing and by the time we had finished tweaking, she looked fab ...translates to about $50
Her shoes and jewellery cost more....but she has had a lot more wear from them.
I think $500 is too expensive.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 7, 2016 12:11:03 GMT -5
Yeah, just handing over $150 or whatever, and letting them figure out the rest sounds like an excellent idea. Again, the way you have household bills structured is probably exacerbating these problems. Puts the onus on you to limit spending instead of them learning to limit on their own.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 12:11:26 GMT -5
Yeah, no. GF came to me to ask for 'help' with the dress. I thought we'd be talking about a $100-$250 dress, not something double that price. I don't see the point in spending $500 on something you're only going to wear for a few hours. GF said, "Oh, she can wear it for formal occasions in the future", but I think she is fooling herself. The particular dress she wants is a certain style that screams 'prom dress', not to mention the fact that I think it will be out of style in a year or two. I went online and looked at other retailers, pointing out that there are a lot of cheaper options out there. GF responded, "Fine, the next time you want to do something for $500 and can't afford it, I'm going to tell you no, that there are cheaper options out there." I kind of exploded and said, "When have I EVER come to you and asked for help because I couldn't afford something?!?!" She admitted I was right. I then left to run an errand with the 16 yr old. What does the future hold for the kid? My daughter wore her junior and senior prom dresses more than a few times. There were the proms, of course, but there were also two school beauty pageants, the county Junior Miss Pageant (we rented one for the runway, but she wore the prom dress for her talent, which was playing the piano), and both for at least one sorority formal each. But my daughter knew she was expected to wear them again. We weren't cruel enough to make her wear the same dress twice to prom (LOL), but the other stuff wasn't "special." So she was cool with wearing them again. Donate $150 to the cause. Then let them find a dress in that price range or add their own money. But quit arguing about it. You argue too much about money. Set your limits and learn to say, "That's tough. I hope you can figure a way to make X work."
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2016 14:50:55 GMT -5
...:::"The recipient of the gift says thank you, and is left with the decision making process.":::...
The problem though is when the recipient of the gift has learned that he/she can get more out of the giver with some simple tricks. Nothing to lose by trying and everything to gain by succeeding, especially if it has worked in the past. Such is more proof of the importance of getting firm boundaries in place.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 7, 2016 15:19:07 GMT -5
...:::"how so? What is the difference between giving 200 towards a dress and demanding that the dress cost no more than 200, and you will pay?":::...
I think we are both saying the same thing. So long as the recipient thinks there is room to wheedle more out of the giver, he/she might as well try. It is so little effort for so much gain. So being very clear and firm, but most important of all, FOLLOWING THROUGH is the only way to change things.
If I were in beerguts position at this point, I'd only give the gift in a form of reimbursement after the fact. Once she has what she wants, she has no incentive to hold up her end of the bargain.
You can say that is manipulative and cynical, but I'm sick of being burned by paying up front and then "trusting" the other person. If you want my money, and I agree to give it to you, then just be grateful.
Or, find a cheaper dress.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 16:43:48 GMT -5
I now understand why my son said he would never marry or have a girlfriend that had kids. We're not all looking for someone who has a deep pocket. When DH and I met, I was newly-divorced with an angry 12-year old manchild. I never expected DH to spend a dime on him although he occasionally brought over a pizza or cooked dinner. I brought DS into the world, I picked the irresponsible baby daddy, my responsibility to support him. Nearly 20 years later we've seen at least a dozen countries together, we're grandparents and we're returning to Iceland in August. Frankly, DH would never have lived like this with his modest resources, but he gave my son a good male role model and showed him what a happy marriage looked like. Money can't buy that.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Feb 7, 2016 17:46:14 GMT -5
My aunt sewed my prom dress. It was the black one. And yes it was black. I loved that dress and wore it several times in college too. Yea I really wasn't going to find a prom dress I liked off the rack.
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simser
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Post by simser on Feb 7, 2016 18:16:04 GMT -5
I'm going to say that 15 years ago I spent $100 on each. But I wore the second dress again (first didn't fit, I keep hoping it will!!).
I wore mine at sorority formals in college. Based on this and previous threads Id say there's a 95% chance of sorority formals in the future, so learning to budget for THIS dance is an important lesson. Or else you'll have it 10-20x more.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 7, 2016 18:20:25 GMT -5
People who know how to sew will have already considered sewing their own dress.
People who have close a family member who knows how to sew will usually have already considered asking that family member to sew their dress.
People who do not know how to sew and do not have family that knows how to sew are unlikely to learn to sew well enough to make their own prom dress in such a short period of time. So, IMHO, suggesting that this girl sew her own dress isn't really helpful. And, as Rukh pointed out, Molly Ringwald 's homemade dress was totally hideous, so probably not helpful to suggest she emulate that, either.
There's really no one correct answer to "is it normal or OK to spend $500 on a Prom dress?" The answer probably depends a lot on the family financial situation and the area the family lives in. The real issues are - does that fit with the family financial situation and what message does the purchase send? From the prior posts of OP, $500 is not affordable for this family and getting a $500 dress will further complicate an already problematic financial dynamic between OP and GF. Hopefully OP will bite his tongue, butt out and let the GF and daughter figure it out. There are plenty of alternatives between $500 and create-your-own-pink-disaster.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Feb 7, 2016 18:37:52 GMT -5
I now understand why my son said he would never marry or have a girlfriend that had kids. We're not all looking for someone who has a deep pocket. When DH and I met, I was newly-divorced with an angry 12-year old manchild. I never expected DH to spend a dime on him although he occasionally brought over a pizza or cooked dinner. I brought DS into the world, I picked the irresponsible baby daddy, my responsibility to support him. Nearly 20 years later we've seen at least a dozen countries together, we're grandparents and we're returning to Iceland in August. Frankly, DH would never have lived like this with his modest resources, but he gave my son a good male role model and showed him what a happy marriage looked like. Money can't buy that. Yeah. That. That being said, I still don't date men with kids. Not because of finances, but because I can't deal with baby mama drama.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Feb 7, 2016 18:46:12 GMT -5
We're not all looking for someone who has a deep pocket. When DH and I met, I was newly-divorced with an angry 12-year old manchild. I never expected DH to spend a dime on him although he occasionally brought over a pizza or cooked dinner. I brought DS into the world, I picked the irresponsible baby daddy, my responsibility to support him. Nearly 20 years later we've seen at least a dozen countries together, we're grandparents and we're returning to Iceland in August. Frankly, DH would never have lived like this with his modest resources, but he gave my son a good male role model and showed him what a happy marriage looked like. Money can't buy that. Yeah. That. That being said, I still don't date men with kids. Not because of finances, but because I can't deal with baby mama drama. My son is a senior. I intentionally did not have another child, and with being nearly done raising mine, I'd prefer a guy with no kids or kids older than mine. I won't 100% rule out someone with a younger kid, but it's a strong "con", and he'd have to be extremely awesome to make up for it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 19:45:06 GMT -5
The fact that mom didn't set a budget on the dress before going looking seems indicative of the "dip into beer's pocket" problem. Now she has created a situation where beergut will be the "bad guy" if he doesn't cough up the money asked for. This seems seriously manipulative. I won't say more, but the issue is with mom and not the daughter in my opinion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 21:21:12 GMT -5
This seems seriously manipulative. I won't say more, but the issue is with mom and not the daughter in my opinion. But this all goes back to the root of the problem. Beer lives there but does not pay rent. He doesn't pay for regular utilities, etc. He pays for food and "extras" - and then he constantly complains about the "extras". We have repeatedly told him to pay market rent and a portion of utilities, but then he wouldn't get to complain about every single thing GF and kids do regarding money. Meanwhile, the GF may well think he should pay more for these extras, cuz - sheesh - he isn't paying rent, or heat, or electric. And the only way to up his contribution, is push for more and pricier "extras" Why would any self respecting grown man not be paying rent + at least 25% of utilities? That is just ridiculous.
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