mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 21, 2016 12:24:21 GMT -5
Actions definitely define a person. However, on a message board like this all you have to go by is words. When you can't see a person, or see that person's actions, all you have to define that person's image in your mind is the words they leave here for you to read. It's just the reality of internet communications. The problem with that is just people's "hearing" is very rarely objective. People have a tendency to ascribe all kinds of meaning to the words of others that is simply not there. And on this particular thread one poster actually made a very "below the belt" comment about another person's actions. Simply bc they didn't like the words that were used. That, to me, is why we need to be very careful with the words we use here, and elsewhere on the internet. Since words are the only means of communication we actually have here, they become even more important in the context of the way we're viewed. There's very little that can be done about that, so a bit of care when formulating responses can make all the difference.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 21, 2016 12:26:02 GMT -5
whoisjohngalt - I understand what you are saying, but the problem with the message board is that our words ARE our actions. We have taken the time to type out what we think and then hit the post button. That, and I do not know most of you in real life. I have no idea if what you say here is anything like how you choose to live your life. So the only thing I can respond to are the words people use.
I happen to respect both laterbloomer and oped for different reasons, and also know I occasionally disagree with both of them. I will say that in this instance, I am on oped's side, but not because I do not understand (and sympathize) with what later is saying, but because of the way she is saying it. Like it or not, "mutilate" is a judgmental word. It is a criminal word. We use it only to describe acts that are illegal or morally reprehensible to us. So there is a difference between saying "I believe surgery should be an option of last resort" and saying "I don't think people should mutilate themselves without a reason I find medically valid". I also understand that a person's decision to have surgery or not is none of my business, and that I don't always agree with the decisions my friends make, but I still support them. I had my thyroid out this summer. Was it medically necessary? Eh. The biopsies all showed the growths on it were benign, but they were big enough that the doctors were concerned about the efficacy of the biopsies. (Though the biopsies were, in fact, quite correct.) So I could have gone on on medication, getting a biopsy every couple of years, and kept my thyroid. I chose to have the surgery once, be on the medication, but not be bitten by a vampire every couple of years. Someone else might say I mutilated my body. I say I made the right choice for me, and that truly, my health decisions - physical and mental - are none of anyone else's business - except my spouse's.
As for the argument about suicide rates, people who have had gender reassignment surgery do not commit suicide because they suddenly think they have mutilated their bodies. To better understand what is going on, it is important to look at some correlated stats. As it is, transgender people report an attempted suicide rate of over 40%. With or without surgery, hormones, etc. Being transgender is very difficult in our society and struggling with it leads to a very high rate of suicide. But you might say, that rate jumps to a successful suicide rate of 50% with surgery, so obviously the surgery is awful. I would actually say the fact that it only jumps to 50% is showing us that something is being done right.
For that to make sense, let's look at another surgery that physically alters people in a drastic way - gastric bypass surgery. Rates of suicide among people who have had gastric bypass surgery are 4 times that of the general population. Self harm in patients who had gastric bypass raises by 54% AFTER they have the surgery. (citation) So the fact that suicide after gender reassignment surgery rises only 25% seems pretty good to me.
Here is the thing about any surgery that majorly alters your physical appearance - it still does not change who you are. It may change how the rest of the world reacts to you. It will change what you see when you look in the mirror, but it does not actually change how you view yourself. And people often have very unrealistic expectations about how their life will change after this kind of surgery. Any surgery that has drastic physical results needs to be accompanied by intense counseling. And most people are not getting it. They think the surgery is a magic bullet that will make everything better. It does not.
That does not mean that no one should get surgery. It means that we need to educate and counsel people better.
I have no idea if my friend will get surgery or not. I do not think my friend knows. She is way early in this process. What I do know is that the decision is 1) None of my business and 2) No matter what the decision is, my main goal will be to support my friend so that suicide does not seem like a valid option.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 21, 2016 12:31:03 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels.
And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention.
Later didn't insult anyone in particular, she was simply expressing an opinion. Oped's comment was insulting, to say the least.
That is why I 100% agree with MJ's comment - if you want to have a discussion on YM - you better be on the right side of the argument.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 12:35:02 GMT -5
One of the scary things to me about plastic surgery and stuff is that you don't have to be licensed to do it! Your dentist can go to a 3 day seminar in Hawaii and come back claiming he can do all sorts of cosmetic surgery. I do think that as a whole there needs to be better education regarding who is and isn't qualified to do surgery. There was a transgender person on Botched who had her boob job fixed. She went to a "surgeon" for the first one and he did an awful job. The doctor on the show explained that doing a breast job on a male is very difficult due to the difference in anatomy, the majority of doctors won't even take it on for various reasons. Then there was another one that went down to Mexico to have facial surgery and they filled her cheeks with CEMENT! They couldn't do anything for her during the epsiode she was in, but in a later episode they said they think they may have found a solution for her. I hope to see that episode. If "surgeons" can do those things to boobs and faces I cannot fathom the damage they can do trying to construct a new genital area. It would be very hard to quanitate since you probably would not get enough people to admit it but I wonder how the suicide rates post gender reassignment surgery differ between having it done by a licensed experienced surgeon in the states vs getting it done by anyone who calls themselves a "surgeon".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 12:42:12 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels. And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention. Later didn't insult anyone in particular, she was simply expressing an opinion. Oped's comment was insulting, to say the least. That is why I 100% agree with MJ's comment - if you want to have a discussion on YM - you better be on the right side of the argument.
I have been more than supporting of later. In words, and actions. I've sent her as many books for her kids in the mail as I have you. I am pretty consistent in my actions as well as my words. But it I DO find it bothersome that someone who works with teens in their formative years of developing identity is so stuck on an interpretation which could be damaging if leveled on a youngster with no alternatives. I didn't come up with the definition of the word mutilate. Later was very clear that what she meant was the textbook definition.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 21, 2016 12:43:43 GMT -5
One of the scary things to me about plastic surgery and stuff is that you don't have to be licensed to do it! Your dentist can go to a 3 day seminar in Hawaii and come back claiming he can do all sorts of cosmetic surgery. I do think that as a whole there needs to be better education regarding who is and isn't qualified to do surgery. There was a transgender person on Botched who had her boob job fixed. She went to a "surgeon" for the first one and he did an awful job. The doctor on the show explained that doing a breast job on a male is very difficult due to the difference in anatomy, the majority of doctors won't even take it on for various reasons. Then there was another one that went down to Mexico to have facial surgery and they filled her cheeks with CEMENT! They couldn't do anything for her during the epsiode she was in, but in a later episode they said they think they may have found a solution for her. I hope to see that episode. If "surgeons" can do those things to boobs and faces I cannot fathom the damage they can do trying to construct a new genital area. It would be very hard to quanitate since you probably would not get enough people to admit it but I wonder how the suicide rates post gender reassignment surgery differ between having it done by a licensed experienced surgeon in the states vs getting it done by anyone who calls themselves a "surgeon". If you are old enough to decide that you want a surgery, you are old enough to figure out whether your surgeon has the right qualifications. Bc if you can't figure out that, you have no business permanently altering your body
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 21, 2016 12:43:57 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels. And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention. Later didn't insult anyone in particular, she was simply expressing an opinion. Oped's comment was insulting, to say the least. That is why I 100% agree with MJ's comment - if you want to have a discussion on YM - you better be on the right side of the argument.
People have implied all sort of things about people's parenting on this board based on whether they send their kids to public, private or homeschool, what they do and don't feed them, what they do and don't let them do, on and on and on and on. Two people had a disagreement, it happens. To say that it's because one person doesn't have a right to be on the "wrong" side of this issue is ridiculous. You've never had anything less than nice to say to any of the other posters on this board?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 21, 2016 12:49:18 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels. And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention. Later didn't insult anyone in particular, she was simply expressing an opinion. Oped's comment was insulting, to say the least. That is why I 100% agree with MJ's comment - if you want to have a discussion on YM - you better be on the right side of the argument.
I have been more than supporting of later. In words, and actions. I've sent her as many books for her kids in the mail as I have you. I am pretty consistent in my actions as well as my words. But it I DO find it bothersome that someone who works with teens in their formative years of developing identity is so stuck on an interpretation which could be damaging if leveled on a youngster with no alternatives. I didn't come up with the definition of the word mutilate. Later was very clear that what she meant was the textbook definition. But you have questioned her ability to be a good foster parent based on how she uses a word. BTW, while her use of the word might not make people feel warm and fuzzy, is technically correct. Mutilation is defined as "permanently destroy, cut off". May be Later doesn't have a problem with what you said bc you sent her books, but I find it wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 12:51:24 GMT -5
I have no problem with tequila saying how she thinks she would view and handle the situation. I take issue with people telling other people how they should handle the situation of being transgender. Or when op asks how she mighty be supportive, to tell her she much better not... Can we all stop arguing for a moment and focus on how I'm the example to follow in this situation?? Because I'm pretty sure that has NEVER been said before Well you really have to consider the source
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 12:51:44 GMT -5
honeysalt - You have a personal life experience that while not directly related to what I was asking about is certainly correlative, and I appreciate you keeping a human face on the issue. The truth is, this thread has overall remained very civil, and I think your willingness to share your experience is a huge part of that.
MJ2.0 - You complimented me earlier on my ability to remain logical in my responses to people who obviously feel differently about this issue than I do. There are a couple reasons for that. The first one being that I knew what kind of can of worms I would be opening by starting this thread. I considered very carefully before I did so. That left me emotionally prepared for these responses, and when I am prepared, I am able to respond in a much more logical and civil manner. The second is that none of you know my friends in real life. So you can say whatever you want about them, and it will not hurt them. This is a safe place for me to talk about this because the truly vulnerable people are safe from your comments. This also gives me some practice for real life when I may feel the need to step in and be a shield for them. If I have already heard and experienced some of the negative responses to their situation and already formulated responses here where I have time and the joy of editing, I am much better prepared to help them if a situation comes up. And finally, the reason I needed this thread and this advice is that my emotional energy is currently spent. The onset of puberty has added depression to Pop Tart's already diagnosed anxiety disorder, and this weekend she had a pretty significant depressive episode. My emotional energy is being spent caring for my little girl and keeping her healthy and safe, so not a lot left over for figuring out how to be there for my friends. So I gave that assignment to you all.
gregintenn - I want to try and explain to you why my response to you was different than my responses to either Virgil Showlion or Miss Tequila . Your immediate response on seeing my post was that my friend who is transgender is crazy and that instead of transitioning, he instead needs to man up. Here's the thing, I did not ask for your opinions or advice about the friend who is transitioning. I asked about how to support that person's spouse. So your comments were simply judgmental. There was nothing I could take from them other than the fact that you strongly object to someone you do not even know making a decision about their own mental health. To be very honest, Virgil and I are not friends. It used to be fairly easy to block or ignore most other posters if you wanted. I never took advantage of that opportunity. And then one day I went on a thread that I thought of as a safe thread, and saw Virgil had posted something on an LGBTQ issue that I found genuinely awful. It was harder because I wasn't on a thread where I expected that (I avoid those threads for a reason), and then it was compounded by the fact that because he was an admin and I could not block him. Virgil then actually went in and placed the "ignore" on my account so that I no longer saw his posts for me. I do want to say that I appreciated that very much because while he and I do not see eye to eye on this in any way, he was able to respect my opinion enough to understand that what he said was truly upsetting to me. Then the board upgraded or something and all the blocks/ignores went away. Since then, I have done my very best to view Virgil's posts in the manner of "I know he won't agree with me, but I have to respect this is his honest feelings." And yes, it's an attitude I should have with everyone here (and I try), but it is harder on some issues. So, all that background is perhaps necessary to understand how I mentally prepare myself before even starting one of Virgil's responses on this thread. But the main thing he did that you did not do was answer my question. He gave me advice on how I should support the spouse. And once I mentally edited out all of his caveats, it was actually good advice - to support the spouse the same way I would support the spouse of anyone facing a major medical issue. Miss T also responded in a bit of a shocked way, but the importance here is to notice her language. Never does she say my friend is crazy. Never does she actually pass judgement on my friend. She uses "I" statements. So she put herself in the place of the spouse and empathized. She knows she would have a very negative response if this were her spouse, but by making her statements about it "I" statements, as in this is how she would react, she also shows the understanding that how she would react is not necessarily the way anyone/everyone else would or even should. She then followed with the best advice she felt able to give in supporting the spouse.
(I have more to say, but am taking a lesson from last night and getting this part posted now.) You don't owe me any explanation. I thought you were looking for opinions on how you could support your friend. It is my opinion that you have no obligation to support the friend at all on this issue. Could I have been more tactful? Yes. Do I care? Not really. I didn't realize you were just looking for compassion. You are more than welcome to put me on your ignore list if you please.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 12:55:55 GMT -5
Every definition of multilated ncludes words like, degrade, deform, damage... The first thing that pops up is 'found any mutilation of the body abhorrent"
Don't pretend there is no connotation to the word. Later specifically said she meant that as part of the definition, and said anyone who chose that path was choosing mutilation, deal with it...
I questioned her ability to counsel a teen in the situation. I suggested that approach might not be beneficial to a teen. I said that I hoped any teen would have opportunities to garner support from more than just one harsh opinion.
The books thing was just an actual example of an action beyond words.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 21, 2016 12:56:00 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels. And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention. Later didn't insult anyone in particular, she was simply expressing an opinion. Oped's comment was insulting, to say the least. That is why I 100% agree with MJ's comment - if you want to have a discussion on YM - you better be on the right side of the argument.
People have implied all sort of things about people's parenting on this board based on whether they send their kids to public, private or homeschool, what they do and don't feed them, what they do and don't let them do, on and on and on and on. Two people had a disagreement, it happens. To say that it's because one person doesn't have a right to be on the "wrong" side of this issue is ridiculous. You've never had anything less than nice to say to any of the other posters on this board? All the things you listed are actions. But simply say that someone is not suited to be a parent simply on how they used a word on a message board is very different. At least to me. And btw, even in most heated discussions I don't recall people saying that poster A should not be a parent based on their parenting choices. Well, except may be "drinking while pregnant" thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 12:56:31 GMT -5
Can we all stop arguing for a moment and focus on how I'm the example to follow in this situation?? Because I'm pretty sure that has NEVER been said before Well you really have to consider the source
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 12:59:10 GMT -5
One of the scary things to me about plastic surgery and stuff is that you don't have to be licensed to do it! Your dentist can go to a 3 day seminar in Hawaii and come back claiming he can do all sorts of cosmetic surgery. I do think that as a whole there needs to be better education regarding who is and isn't qualified to do surgery. There was a transgender person on Botched who had her boob job fixed. She went to a "surgeon" for the first one and he did an awful job. The doctor on the show explained that doing a breast job on a male is very difficult due to the difference in anatomy, the majority of doctors won't even take it on for various reasons. Then there was another one that went down to Mexico to have facial surgery and they filled her cheeks with CEMENT! They couldn't do anything for her during the epsiode she was in, but in a later episode they said they think they may have found a solution for her. I hope to see that episode. If "surgeons" can do those things to boobs and faces I cannot fathom the damage they can do trying to construct a new genital area. It would be very hard to quanitate since you probably would not get enough people to admit it but I wonder how the suicide rates post gender reassignment surgery differ between having it done by a licensed experienced surgeon in the states vs getting it done by anyone who calls themselves a "surgeon". If you are old enough to decide that you want a surgery, you are old enough to figure out whether your surgeon has the right qualifications. Bc if you can't figure out that, you have no business permanently altering your body I agree. My point was I am interested in the "50% (or whatever was cited) of transgender people commit suicide post surgery" statistic thrown out. I'd be curious how many of the 50% are people who jumped thru all the hoops to be able to get into one of the licensed experienced surgeons vs people who went to Mexico and ended up Botched. I'm basing it on nothing but speculation but I would think someone who has to go thru the process I outlined in a previous post in order to get approved for surgery is going to be happier at the end of it. There is A LOT of psychological screening that goes into being approved for gender reassignment surgery and the steps along the way are designed to give you an "out" if you change your mind. Hormones are "easier" to reverse than surgery. Compare that to someone who flies down to Mexico to get a surgery no questions asked that they feel will make them happy. The issue would be getting people to admit to the latter so you can obtain a significant statistical base.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jan 21, 2016 12:59:15 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels. And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention. Later didn't insult anyone in particular, she was simply expressing an opinion. Oped's comment was insulting, to say the least. That is why I 100% agree with MJ's comment - if you want to have a discussion on YM - you better be on the right side of the argument.
While Oped might have phrased it better, I'm not sure what is so controversial about saying someone who thinks that way about transgender surgery might not be that good with a teen really struggling with gender identity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 13:01:37 GMT -5
What a crazy view! I'm not saying the surgery causes the suicide, I'm saying it doesn't solve the problem that causes the suicide.
Again, an example of surgery not solving the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 13:01:37 GMT -5
I have no problem with tequila saying how she thinks she would view and handle the situation. I take issue with people telling other people how they should handle the situation of being transgender. Or when op asks how she mighty be supportive, to tell her she much better not... Can we all stop arguing for a moment and focus on how I'm the example to follow in this situation?? Because I'm pretty sure that has NEVER been said before I actually almost messaged you a few times yesterday to say how much I appreciated the way you handled your responses, but couldn't get the wording right, and ultimately figured who was I to 'approve' your comments... Which is what it sounded like to me, even if it not what I meant... Anyway. As someone stated, please consider the source.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 13:04:01 GMT -5
What a crazy view! I'm not saying the surgery causes the suicide, I'm saying it doesn't solve the problem that causes the suicide.
Again, an example of surgery not solving the problem. Now you know what it feels like to be me on a board like this!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jan 21, 2016 13:05:51 GMT -5
One of the scary things to me about plastic surgery and stuff is that you don't have to be licensed to do it! Your dentist can go to a 3 day seminar in Hawaii and come back claiming he can do all sorts of cosmetic surgery. I do think that as a whole there needs to be better education regarding who is and isn't qualified to do surgery. There was a transgender person on Botched who had her boob job fixed. She went to a "surgeon" for the first one and he did an awful job. The doctor on the show explained that doing a breast job on a male is very difficult due to the difference in anatomy, the majority of doctors won't even take it on for various reasons. Then there was another one that went down to Mexico to have facial surgery and they filled her cheeks with CEMENT! They couldn't do anything for her during the epsiode she was in, but in a later episode they said they think they may have found a solution for her. I hope to see that episode. If "surgeons" can do those things to boobs and faces I cannot fathom the damage they can do trying to construct a new genital area. It would be very hard to quanitate since you probably would not get enough people to admit it but I wonder how the suicide rates post gender reassignment surgery differ between having it done by a licensed experienced surgeon in the states vs getting it done by anyone who calls themselves a "surgeon". Cosmetic surgery and plastic surgery are different things. ENTs, gynos, dentists, etc. can get certified in cosmetic surgical procedures. If you're going to someone in another country or a strip mall without checking your surgeon is ABPS/ASPS certified, well, that's on you. But, many people are so desperate to have some surgical and/or cosmetic procedures that they will go to any lengths, sadly. You can actually have your license revoked, lose board certifications, and face criminal charges for unlicensed procedures.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 13:07:05 GMT -5
OT but I thought you also had to do counseling before gastric bypass? I also thought they try to get you to lose weight on your own first both to show commitment and b/c if you can get your weight down by any amount that helps reduce surgery complications/risk.
Course if you shop around long enough and have enough money you can find a doctor who will do whatever you want.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 13:17:33 GMT -5
What a crazy view! I'm not saying the surgery causes the suicide, I'm saying it doesn't solve the problem that causes the suicide.
Again, an example of surgery not solving the problem. Now you know what it feels like to be me on a board like this! There's no need to be insulting
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 13:19:33 GMT -5
Now you know what it feels like to be me on a board like this! There's no need to be insulting O.k. Now I'm offended.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 21, 2016 13:25:26 GMT -5
This has been an amazing thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 13:25:57 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels. And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention.
Worse than that! On one post she implied I'm a Conservative!!!!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 21, 2016 13:30:56 GMT -5
If you are old enough to decide that you want a surgery, you are old enough to figure out whether your surgeon has the right qualifications. Bc if you can't figure out that, you have no business permanently altering your body I agree. My point was I am interested in the "50% (or whatever was cited) of transgender people commit suicide post surgery" statistic thrown out. I'd be curious how many of the 50% are people who jumped thru all the hoops to be able to get into one of the licensed experienced surgeons vs people who went to Mexico and ended up Botched.
I'm basing it on nothing but speculation but I would think someone who has to go thru the process I outlined in a previous post in order to get approved for surgery is going to be happier at the end of it. There is A LOT of psychological screening that goes into being approved for gender reassignment surgery and the steps along the way are designed to give you an "out" if you change your mind. Hormones are "easier" to reverse than surgery. Compare that to someone who flies down to Mexico to get a surgery no questions asked that they feel will make them happy. The issue would be getting people to admit to the latter so you can obtain a significant statistical base. Oh that is just heartbreaking. Although I would think people who are interested in this kind of surgery would be the one who do extensive research? I don't know. I can totally see someone flying to Mexico for a boob job, but for something so serious? I don't know....
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 13:32:35 GMT -5
While you might not like a particular word that Later used, implying anything about her as a fostering parent is wrong on many many many levels. And yet, somehow, that comment from Oped got no attention.
Worse than that! On one post she implied I'm a Conservative!!!! Now that's simply uncalled for!
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whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 21, 2016 13:33:50 GMT -5
OK kids, I have to go to a playdate, so I am out.
Didn't want anyone to think that I was offended by any words used and left in a huff.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,025
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 13:35:06 GMT -5
I agree. My point was I am interested in the "50% (or whatever was cited) of transgender people commit suicide post surgery" statistic thrown out. I'd be curious how many of the 50% are people who jumped thru all the hoops to be able to get into one of the licensed experienced surgeons vs people who went to Mexico and ended up Botched.
I'm basing it on nothing but speculation but I would think someone who has to go thru the process I outlined in a previous post in order to get approved for surgery is going to be happier at the end of it. There is A LOT of psychological screening that goes into being approved for gender reassignment surgery and the steps along the way are designed to give you an "out" if you change your mind. Hormones are "easier" to reverse than surgery. Compare that to someone who flies down to Mexico to get a surgery no questions asked that they feel will make them happy. The issue would be getting people to admit to the latter so you can obtain a significant statistical base. Oh that is just heartbreaking. Although I would think people who are interested in this kind of surgery would be the one who do extensive research? I don't know. I can totally see someone flying to Mexico for a boob job, but for something so serious? I don't know.... I think the issue is that it is so hard to get into a reputable surgeon (and I do think it should be for such a drastic surgery) and it's still considered pretty taboo to be transgender. Insurance doesn't cover the surgery so you are looking at a ton of money out of pocket even if you do get approved. I can imagine that some people get desperate enough to drive/fly to Mexico or elsewhere where they can get the surgery faster, cheaper and won't be judged as long as they have the money to pay.
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Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jan 21, 2016 13:36:46 GMT -5
To answer the question of the OP, I'm going to venture away from the Generally Accepted Opinion of the self-identified Evolved. Why? Because I think toeing the company line inhibits our use of logic and shuts down the search for real answers. In the case of gender disphoria (is that what it's called? Sorry if I go that wrong.), I'm afraid this unquestioning acceptance can lead to only treating the symptoms without ever addressing the cause. Perhaps treating the symptoms is the only viable option in certain cases, but I don't think that is the case. They just haven't found a good way to treat the cause(s). I don't think they've even found the cause(s) yet. The knowledge base seems extremely fuzzy at the moment.
I think that this is a mental illness, just like depression, bi-polar disorder or any other widely accepted mental illness. It causes the person who has it to function less well in society. If it's severe enough, it can lead to self-harm. We don't hate people with mental illness, do we? We don't blame them for their illness, do we? I don't think so. Most people don't make moral judgments about the people who suffer from them. For the most part, someone who has depression and anxiety isn't called selfish. But what if they expect the whole world around them to act happy and calm all of the time to ease their depression and anxiety? Then, I guess they would venture into the realm of selfish. Wouldn't it?
On to the spouse in this situation: I believe in marriage vows and sticking together through sickness and health, but mental illness is different. If it is severe enough, it makes the person into a different person. If that's not the person you married any longer, then I guess you can feel free to move on, if you so choose. The transitioning spouse is doing what they feel they need to do to be happy. The one left behind should be feel free to do the same. If they still want to try to stick it out and make it work, of course they can. But I would neither encourage it nor discourage it. I would try to make them understand that their spouse has an illness that they didn't cause or contribute in any way at all. It's not their fault, and the change does not reflect upon them as a person at all. They are also not a jerk for not wanting to continue in the relationship.
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gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 13:39:11 GMT -5
To answer the question of the OP, I'm going to venture away from the Generally Accepted Opinion of the self-identified Evolved. Why? Because I think toeing the company line inhibits our use of logic and shuts down the search for real answers. In the case of gender disphoria (is that what it's called? Sorry if I go that wrong.), I'm afraid this unquestioning acceptance can lead to only treating the symptoms without ever addressing the cause. Perhaps treating the symptoms is the only viable option in certain cases, but I don't think that is the case. They just haven't found a good way to treat the cause(s). I don't think they've even found the cause(s) yet. The knowledge base seems extremely fuzzy at the moment. I think that this is a mental illness, just like depression, bi-polar disorder or any other widely accepted mental illness. It causes the person who has it to function less well in society. If it's severe enough, it can lead to self-harm. We don't hate people with mental illness, do we? We don't blame them for their illness, do we? I don't think so. Most people don't make moral judgments about the people who suffer from them. For the most part, someone who has depression and anxiety isn't called selfish. But what if they expect the whole world around them to act happy and calm all of the time to ease their depression and anxiety? Then, I guess they would venture into the realm of selfish. Wouldn't it? On to the spouse in this situation: I believe in marriage vows and sticking together through sickness and health, but mental illness is different. If it is severe enough, it makes the person into a different person. If that's not the person you married any longer, then I guess you can feel free to move on, if you so choose. The transitioning spouse is doing what they feel they need to do to be happy. The one left behind should be feel free to do the same. If they still want to try to stick it out and make it work, of course they can. But I would neither encourage it nor discourage it. I would try to make them understand that their spouse has an illness that they didn't cause or contribute in any way at all. It's not their fault, and the change does not reflect upon them as a person at all. They are also not a jerk for not wanting to continue in the relationship. I'm guessing you didn't read past the first post. This isn't what she's wanting to hear.
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