How to support a transitioning friend's spouse?

[honeysalt]

Jan 20, 2016 23:29:28 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 20, 2016 23:25:51 GMT -5 honeysalt said:

Thanks for the empathy, it was awful. 

No harping implied or assumed by asking an honest question.  By puberty, I had firmly established myself as a cultural woman.  No one suspected any difference in my gender or my sexuality.  They did notice differences in my responses to social queues.  I was pretty emotionally volatile.  This was attributed to my emotional state, when, in fact, it was a result of my biological state (2 puberties, a lot of hormones).  At that time in my life, people thought I was crazy.  So did I. 

Fortunately, I learned a lot of emotional control from those experiences, and I have subsequently benefited from a high degree of emotional control as an adult.  While I would like to claim this as strength of character, it was just what was necessary to survive the hormonal earthquake of puberty. 

Any chance you're a Star Trek fan? You make it sound like the Vulcan mind control training Spock went through lol

This is so insightful and funny that I actually did LOL.  I have watched my fair share of Star Trek, though not enough to consider myself a fan.   My friends in college nick-named me Spock.  It is fair to say that I learned to distrust my emotions, because I knew they were based on biology/hormones/something I couldn't control or trust in my twenties.  It is also fair to say that I have learned that emotions direct our attention towards what we should be paying attention to in my thirties and have learned to rely less on logic in my thirties.  Who knows what my forties will bring?

[shanendoah]

I has a very long, very involved post almost completely written when my computer froze. I do not have the time or energy to repeat it now. So I just want to say THANK YOU to honeysalt for your willingness to share your story.

With any luck, tomorrow will be a less work filled day at work and maybe I can get my full response up.

[honeysalt]

Shanendoah, thank you.  I have felt have had mixed feelings today.  On the one hand, I got to exchange views with people who don't think like me, which is one of my greatest joys.  On the other hand, I felt that I derailed your thread.  The fact that you don't see it as me taking over (which would be a fair view), makes me breathe a sigh of relief.  Very generous of you.  Not surprising considering how aware and generous you are with your friends, but still nice to experience. 

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 22:53:04 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 20, 2016 21:53:29 GMT -5 oped said:

But none of the studies that demonstrate the high suicide rates among transgender people actually prove the point conservatives are trying to make. They actually all indicate that people who are transgender feel ostracized for their identity; their high suicide rates reflect rejection, discrimination, violence, harassment, and the negative life circumstances that result from such treatment.

Yes, this is think progress, but it like all the studied.

thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/06/22/3672506/transgender-suicide-rates/

Basically correlation does not equal causation.



I'm sure being told by other people who know nothing of their condition, how they should manage their own bodies without resorting to violent deformation will really help with feelings if ostricization and rejection though...

Correlation does not negate causation either. And I don't see how telling other people that you do need to resort to violent deformation of your body to be accepted will help with feelings of ostricization and rejection.

Which is why I don't think one should ever say that. Notice honeysalt discuss people who chose to undergo physical refromation without ever implying the type of judgement the world mutilate conveys. 

I take it you didn't actually look at any of the studies? 

[Deleted]

Do you notice honey, the one actually living with this issue, actually talking to me and not freaking out? Cutting off a body part is mutilation, deal with it.

[Deleted]

Speaking of not being able to tell the difference in how something is said, can you really not see that "You don't need to mutilate yourself to make your sex match some societal construct of gender, you can dress and behave however you want and not endanger your physical health and still be accepted" is a loving message?

[Wisconsin Beth]

I want to thank later for bringing honeysalt's childhood. I was curious but couldn't figure out how to word it. I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to ask either!

[Deleted]

I notice you not seeming to understand or listen to what she is actually saying...

I'm not freaking out? I'm just disagreeing with you and attempting to get you to look at things from another angle because I don't think using charged words is either kind or effective in sensitive situations like dealing with transgender individuals. It's probably moot anyway, I'm guessing you would not be invited to be a confidant or offer guidance given the vibes you give off. It does make me worry because I know you work with teenagers. But I'm hoping there are enough places in the world today where a teen could find a good support system. I hope.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 9:11:05 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Speaking of not being able to tell the difference in how something is said, can you really not see that "You don't need to mutilate yourself to make your sex match some societal construct of gender, you can dress and behave however you want and not endanger your physical health and still be accepted" is a loving message?

No. I can't. The word mutilate is an unaccepting word that reeks of judgement. Some people will choose physical reformation. Not just transgendered people either. Just because some people choose physical reformation for themselves doesn't mean they are violently degrading themselves in a manner that leaves them deformed. 

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 9:21:02 GMT -5 oped said:

Jan 21, 2016 9:11:05 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Speaking of not being able to tell the difference in how something is said, can you really not see that "You don't need to mutilate yourself to make your sex match some societal construct of gender, you can dress and behave however you want and not endanger your physical health and still be accepted" is a loving message?

No. I can't. The word mutilate is an unaccepting word that reeks of judgement. Some people will choose physical reformation. Not just transgendered people either. Just because some people choose physical reformation for themselves doesn't mean they are violently degrading themselves in a manner that leaves them deformed. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. Cutting up healthy body parts for non medically necessary reasons is mutilation in my eyes.

[Deleted]

Then don't be surprised when a lot of people choose to remove themselves from your line of sight...

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 9:17:41 GMT -5 oped said:

I notice you not seeming to understand or listen to what she is actually saying...

I'm not freaking out? I'm just disagreeing with you and attempting to get you to look at things from another angle because I don't think using charged words is either kind or effective in sensitive situations like dealing with transgender individuals. It's probably moot anyway, I'm guessing you would not be invited to be a confidant or offer guidance given the vibes you give off. It does make me worry because I know you work with teenagers. But I'm hoping there are enough places in the world today where a teen could find a good support system. I hope.

You are obnoxious. I do very good work with the teens that come into my home.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 9:37:49 GMT -5 oped said:

Then don't be surprised when a lot of people choose to remove themselves from your line of sight...

You are getting very personal.

[swamp]

Jan 21, 2016 9:29:03 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 21, 2016 9:21:02 GMT -5 oped said:

No. I can't. The word mutilate is an unaccepting word that reeks of judgement. Some people will choose physical reformation. Not just transgendered people either. Just because some people choose physical reformation for themselves doesn't mean they are violently degrading themselves in a manner that leaves them deformed. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. Cutting up healthy body parts for non medically necessary reasons is mutilation in my eyes.

Mental health considered a valid necessary reason?

[Deleted]

oh, I thought I was getting obnoxious?

It's perfectly ok for you to pass judgement upon others for what they choose to do to their bodies... But I can't suggest that that sort of judgement might have a negative impact, or cause someone to turn away ?

I'm actually pretty done with this conversation at the moment I think. No amount or manner of discussion is going to have an impact. Moderators can decide what they feel needs to be done.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 9:44:12 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 21, 2016 9:29:03 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. Cutting up healthy body parts for non medically necessary reasons is mutilation in my eyes.

Mental health considered a valid necessary reason?

That begs the question of whether the distress to their mental health is caused by their physical being or the fact that society only has 2 genders so they feel conforming is the way to fit in. A 50% suicide rate would suggest that surgery is not fixing the problem and we need to look at changing other factors.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I can't say I am a fan of gender reassignment surgery either but that's b/c I can't wrap my brain around wanting it.

If I knew a person going thru it I'd keep my mouth shut and be supportive, it is their body not mine.

Gender reassignment surgery is the LAST step for a transgender person or is supposed to be in the states.   In order to get approved for the surgery you have to have recieved an official diagnosis of transgenderism from a specialist, lived as your chosen gender for a certain amount of time and/or have done hormonal therapy.   Your case then goes in front of an ethics committee at the hospital.  There are only a handful of places in the country experienced to do the surgery.  You can't just walk into any old hospital and say "chop my body part off" and they say OKAY.

Which is why a lot of people end up going to third world countries to get the surgery done b/c they don't ask questions if you have the cash.   Which leads to horrible results.

I am assuming most people who get the surgery have weighed the risks/benefits for themselves and come to a conclusion.  While I might not agree it's not my place to tell them what to do with their bodies.

It was brought up earlier in the thread but there is a huge debate raging concerning people who want to be amputees as well.  There is research coming out showing there is a miswiring/disconnect in the brain which leads to the desire to want to amputate the offending appendange.  Many people try to do it themselves with horrible results.    The debate is doctors vow to do no harm, voluntary amputation of a healthy limb is considered doing harm.

Yet they see the people who self amputate come in and have to save their lives.  There is also a high suicide rate among these people.   So are they doing more harm by NOT amputating?

It's really interesting stuff when you start reading about it.   There is more to it than people just being "whacked in the head".

[imawino]

Jan 21, 2016 9:11:05 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Speaking of not being able to tell the difference in how something is said, can you really not see that "You don't need to mutilate yourself to make your sex match some societal construct of gender, you can dress and behave however you want and not endanger your physical health and still be accepted" is a loving message?

I disagree. First of all, telling people what they need to do to feel right is not a loving message. It is a bossy, judgmental message. You can express that you don't think you personally would need to have surgery if you were in the same situation (although how anyone presumes to know exactly what they would physically and mentally need in that situation is beyond me) - but telling them what they need? No. Also, mutilation is a highly charged word whether you want it to be or not. Why would you not want to choose a kinder word if your intent was to convey a loving message?  What is the point? 

This reminds me of those ridiculous debates we've had on here about makeup, although obviously on a much higher level.  Some people couldn't understand the difference between saying "I don't personally like makeup for myself" and "you don't need to paint your face like a whore to look like a woman".

[Deleted]

I disagree.

I can live with that.

[kittensaver]

Everyone is free to believe what they want. And within the law (i.e., freedom of speech, the constraints of slander and libel, etc), everyone is free to say what they think.

But no one is entitled to be free of the consequences that come from expressing what you think. Others are equally free to call you on your behavior (and yes, language/verbal expression is a form of behavior).

How language is used tells you an awful lot about a person (as does their actions). Choice of words not only has a powerful impact on others, they powerfully impact how negatively (or positively) others see you. Choice of words tells you an awful lot about the inner workings of that person.

Just sayin' . . . .

[whoisjohngalt]

Jan 21, 2016 11:06:34 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Everyone is free to believe what they want. And within the law (i.e., freedom of speech, the constraints of slander and libel, etc), everyone is free to say what they think.

But no one is entitled to be free of the consequences that come from expressing what you think. Others are equally free to call you on your behavior (and yes, language/verbal expression is a form of behavior).

How language is used tells you an awful lot about a person (as does their actions). Choice of words not only has a powerful impact on others, they powerfully impact how negatively (or positively) others see you. Choice of words tells you an awful lot about the inner workings of that person.

Just sayin' . . . .

To me that actually is huge problem.  I don't know if it's today's society problem or has it always been like that.

We pay waaaaay too much attention to all kinds of words and much less to people's actions.

And this thread is an excellent example of that. 

Anyone can say anything bc saying things is easy.  It's when people act and act consistently that should matter.  Words should not have more powerful impact than actions and yet, somehow, people are so worried about what is being said that they pay little attention to what is done.

[shanendoah]

honeysalt - You have a personal life experience that while not directly related to what I was asking about is certainly correlative, and I appreciate you keeping a human face on the issue. The truth is, this thread has overall remained very civil, and I think your willingness to share your experience is a huge part of that.

MJ2.0 - You complimented me earlier on my ability to remain logical in my responses to people who obviously feel differently about this issue than I do. There are a couple reasons for that. The first one being that I knew what kind of can of worms I would be opening by starting this thread. I considered very carefully before I did so. That left me emotionally prepared for these responses, and when I am prepared, I am able to respond in a much more logical and civil manner.
The second is that none of you know my friends in real life. So you can say whatever you want about them, and it will not hurt them. This is a safe place for me to talk about this because the truly vulnerable people are safe from your comments. This also gives me some practice for real life when I may feel the need to step in and be a shield for them. If I have already heard and experienced some of the negative responses to their situation and already formulated responses here where I have time and the joy of editing, I am much better prepared to help them if a situation comes up.
And finally, the reason I needed this thread and this advice is that my emotional energy is currently spent. The onset of puberty has added depression to Pop Tart's already diagnosed anxiety disorder, and this weekend she had a pretty significant depressive episode. My emotional energy is being spent caring for my little girl and keeping her healthy and safe, so not a lot left over for figuring out how to be there for my friends. So I gave that assignment to you all.

gregintenn - I want to try and explain to you why my response to you was different than my responses to either Virgil Showlion or Miss Tequila. Your immediate response on seeing my post was that my friend who is transgender is crazy and that instead of transitioning, he instead needs to man up. Here's the thing, I did not ask for your opinions or advice about the friend who is transitioning. I asked about how to support that person's spouse. So your comments were simply judgmental. There was nothing I could take from them other than the fact that you strongly object to someone you do not even know making a decision about their own mental health.
To be very honest, Virgil and I are not friends. It used to be fairly easy to block or ignore most other posters if you wanted. I never took advantage of that opportunity. And then one day I went on a thread that I thought of as a safe thread, and saw Virgil had posted something on an LGBTQ issue that I found genuinely awful. It was harder because I wasn't on a thread where I expected that (I avoid those threads for a reason), and then it was compounded by the fact that because he was an admin and I could not block him. Virgil then actually went in and placed the "ignore" on my account so that I no longer saw his posts for me. I do want to say that I appreciated that very much because while he and I do not see eye to eye on this in any way, he was able to respect my opinion enough to understand that what he said was truly upsetting to me. Then the board upgraded or something and all the blocks/ignores went away. Since then, I have done my very best to view Virgil's posts in the manner of "I know he won't agree with me, but I have to respect this is his honest feelings." And yes, it's an attitude I should have with everyone here (and I try), but it is harder on some issues.
So, all that background is perhaps necessary to understand how I mentally prepare myself before even starting one of Virgil's responses on this thread. But the main thing he did that you did not do was answer my question. He gave me advice on how I should support the spouse. And once I mentally edited out all of his caveats, it was actually good advice - to support the spouse the same way I would support the spouse of anyone facing a major medical issue.
Miss T also responded in a bit of a shocked way, but the importance here is to notice her language. Never does she say my friend is crazy. Never does she actually pass judgement on my friend. She uses "I" statements. So she put herself in the place of the spouse and empathized. She knows she would have a very negative response if this were her spouse, but by making her statements about it "I" statements, as in this is how she would react, she also shows the understanding that how she would react is not necessarily the way anyone/everyone else would or even should. She then followed with the best advice she felt able to give in supporting the spouse.

(I have more to say, but am taking a lesson from last night and getting this part posted now.)

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 20, 2016 21:10:50 GMT -5 oped said:

Jan 20, 2016 20:53:54 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

If some here wish to be consistent, Tequila's comment should have been considered sexist.

"I would have to divorce if he cut off his penis...the penis is the only saving grace of a man!lol"


I thought it was funny, but I'm not real touchy like that.

I have no problem with tequila saying how she thinks she would view and handle the situation. I take issue with people telling other people how they should handle the situation of being transgender. Or when op asks how she mighty be supportive, to tell her she much better not...

Can we all stop arguing for a moment and focus on how I'm the example to follow in this situation??  Because I'm pretty sure that has NEVER been said before

[Chocolate Lover]

Jan 21, 2016 12:01:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 20, 2016 21:10:50 GMT -5 oped said:

I have no problem with tequila saying how she thinks she would view and handle the situation. I take issue with people telling other people how they should handle the situation of being transgender. Or when op asks how she mighty be supportive, to tell her she much better not...

Can we all stop arguing for a moment and focus on how I'm the example to follow in this situation??  Because I'm pretty sure that has NEVER been said before

I'm floored. 


And I'm so glad honeysalt spoke up. I learn so much here just sitting and reading.

[chen35]

I just want to say that I think there are so many great people on this board. I learn so much just by reading about your experiences and your opinions. My own social circle is fairly similar to me (I couldn't even say I know anyone who doesn't have health insurance on that thread), so I really appreciate the diversity of view here.

[Cookies Galore]

Jan 21, 2016 12:01:12 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Jan 20, 2016 21:10:50 GMT -5 oped said:

I have no problem with tequila saying how she thinks she would view and handle the situation. I take issue with people telling other people how they should handle the situation of being transgender. Or when op asks how she mighty be supportive, to tell her she much better not...

Can we all stop arguing for a moment and focus on how I'm the example to follow in this situation??  Because I'm pretty sure that has NEVER been said before

This is truly a magical moment.

[skubikky]

Jan 20, 2016 20:01:51 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

This all still boils down to a difference of opinion about something. So again, we all either need to be on the "right" side of the discussion or we're all despicable human beings.

Yup.  It seems to be a right and wrong type issue.

Obviously it's an issue that brings a great deal of turmoil to the individual experiencing it and their family and friends.
As with any human being that is suffering in some manner, they deserve some level of compassion.

It's cause or legitimacy is what is in part being debated.
It is a subject that yields some very strong responses from both sides.

Each is entitled to their own personal opinion on the subject. 
I don't believe that, because some here have described what is an unpopular view point on the subject, that they should be attacked for
comments that disturb other's view of the matter.

[mmhmm]

Jan 21, 2016 11:39:49 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Jan 21, 2016 11:06:34 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Everyone is free to believe what they want. And within the law (i.e., freedom of speech, the constraints of slander and libel, etc), everyone is free to say what they think.

But no one is entitled to be free of the consequences that come from expressing what you think. Others are equally free to call you on your behavior (and yes, language/verbal expression is a form of behavior).

How language is used tells you an awful lot about a person (as does their actions). Choice of words not only has a powerful impact on others, they powerfully impact how negatively (or positively) others see you. Choice of words tells you an awful lot about the inner workings of that person.

Just sayin' . . . .

To me that actually is huge problem.  I don't know if it's today's society problem or has it always been like that.

We pay waaaaay too much attention to all kinds of words and much less to people's actions.

And this thread is an excellent example of that. 

Anyone can say anything bc saying things is easy.  It's when people act and act consistently that should matter.  Words should not have more powerful impact than actions and yet, somehow, people are so worried about what is being said that they pay little attention to what is done.

Actions definitely define a person. However, on a message board like this all you have to go by is words. When you can't see a person, or see that person's actions, all you have to define that person's image in your mind is the words they leave here for you to read. It's just the reality of internet communications.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I assume that Latebloomer has tact and if she found herself in the same position as the OP would keep things to herself unless asked.    Since we're talking about the subject IMHO that counts as "asking" for our real opinions on the subject.

[whoisjohngalt]

Jan 21, 2016 12:17:32 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 21, 2016 11:39:49 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

To me that actually is huge problem.  I don't know if it's today's society problem or has it always been like that.

We pay waaaaay too much attention to all kinds of words and much less to people's actions.

And this thread is an excellent example of that. 

Anyone can say anything bc saying things is easy.  It's when people act and act consistently that should matter.  Words should not have more powerful impact than actions and yet, somehow, people are so worried about what is being said that they pay little attention to what is done.

Actions definitely define a person. However, on a message board like this all you have to go by is words. When you can't see a person, or see that person's actions, all you have to define that person's image in your mind is the words they leave here for you to read. It's just the reality of internet communications.

The problem with that is just people's "hearing" is very rarely objective.  People have a tendency to ascribe all kinds of meaning to the words of others that is simply not there.

And on this particular thread one poster actually made a very "below the belt" comment about another person's actions.  Simply bc they didn't like the words that were used.