Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jan 21, 2016 13:39:30 GMT -5
I think the trouble with transgender discussions (and other controversial issues) is that people are uninformed. It was lovely that Honeysalt shared her story, but the fact is her story is NOT uncommon. If you have the need to voice an opinion on a subject, it would be prudent to research it so your opinion is based on fact. Sitting in your chair and spouting off doesn't do you (or the conversation) anything good. Assuming YMers are more intellectual than the average bear, you'd think more people would voice informed opinions vs just emotions/feelings.
The latest science on trans is that hormone surges during pregnancy alter the brains of developing fetuses, even though their gender was determined when they were a zygote. There is documented evidence of this. As such, being trans could be considered a birth defect. If the birth defect was a stunted limb everyone would be fine with getting it fixed. That the birth defect involves sex organs, suddenly everyone freaks out.
Most of you know I have a trans son. This issue is complex and I think until you are exposed to it IRL, you just don't have a clue. Fortunately more trans people are feeling safe about sharing their story, and as their stories become more common it won't seem so "freakish" to those who haven't been exposed to the condition. Once it isn't so freakish, trans people will feel safer "coming out" earlier vs waiting 40 years.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jan 21, 2016 13:44:49 GMT -5
To answer the question of the OP, I'm going to venture away from the Generally Accepted Opinion of the self-identified Evolved. Why? Because I think toeing the company line inhibits our use of logic and shuts down the search for real answers. In the case of gender disphoria (is that what it's called? Sorry if I go that wrong.), I'm afraid this unquestioning acceptance can lead to only treating the symptoms without ever addressing the cause. Perhaps treating the symptoms is the only viable option in certain cases, but I don't think that is the case. They just haven't found a good way to treat the cause(s). I don't think they've even found the cause(s) yet. The knowledge base seems extremely fuzzy at the moment. I think that this is a mental illness, just like depression, bi-polar disorder or any other widely accepted mental illness. It causes the person who has it to function less well in society. If it's severe enough, it can lead to self-harm. We don't hate people with mental illness, do we? We don't blame them for their illness, do we? I don't think so. Most people don't make moral judgments about the people who suffer from them. For the most part, someone who has depression and anxiety isn't called selfish. But what if they expect the whole world around them to act happy and calm all of the time to ease their depression and anxiety? Then, I guess they would venture into the realm of selfish. Wouldn't it? On to the spouse in this situation: I believe in marriage vows and sticking together through sickness and health, but mental illness is different. If it is severe enough, it makes the person into a different person. If that's not the person you married any longer, then I guess you can feel free to move on, if you so choose. The transitioning spouse is doing what they feel they need to do to be happy. The one left behind should be feel free to do the same. If they still want to try to stick it out and make it work, of course they can. But I would neither encourage it nor discourage it. I would try to make them understand that their spouse has an illness that they didn't cause or contribute in any way at all. It's not their fault, and the change does not reflect upon them as a person at all. They are also not a jerk for not wanting to continue in the relationship. I'm guessing you didn't read past the first post. This isn't what she's wanting to hear. I read some, not sure if all. It's been a couple of days now. There's like 10 freaking pages, and I've been busy. That's all I've got to say on the subject. It doesn't toe the company line, and I don't have any desire to go round and round.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 13:46:32 GMT -5
I think the trouble with transgender discussions (and other controversial issues) is that people are uninformed. It was lovely that Honeysalt shared her story, but the fact is her story is NOT uncommon. If you have the need to voice an opinion on a subject, it would be prudent to research it so your opinion is based on fact. Sitting in your chair and spouting off doesn't do you (or the conversation) anything good. Assuming YMers are more intellectual than the average bear, you'd think more people would voice informed opinions vs just emotions/feelings. The latest science on trans is that hormone surges during pregnancy alter the brains of developing fetuses, even though their gender was determined when they were a zygote. There is documented evidence of this. As such, being trans could be considered a birth defect. If the birth defect was a stunted limb everyone would be fine with getting it fixed. That the birth defect involves sex organs, suddenly everyone freaks out. Most of you know I have a trans son. This issue is complex and I think until you are exposed to it IRL, you just don't have a clue. Fortunately more trans people are feeling safe about sharing their story, and as their stories become more common it won't seem so "freakish" to those who haven't been exposed to the condition. Once it isn't so freakish, trans people will feel safer "coming out" earlier vs waiting 40 years. You say it's a mental issue, but then want to treat it as a physical issue. If the birth defect was a stunted limb, to use your example, what you are proposing is the equivalent of treating it with brain surgery.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 21, 2016 13:46:38 GMT -5
OT but I thought you also had to do counseling before gastric bypass? I also thought they try to get you to lose weight on your own first both to show commitment and b/c if you can get your weight down by any amount that helps reduce surgery complications/risk. Course if you shop around long enough and have enough money you can find a doctor who will do whatever you want. The really good bariatric surgeons have a process the patient must go through before surgery, if surgery is found to be a viable option. These processes vary from surgeon to surgeon but consist of embarking on lifestyle changes that will promote continued good health. They also stress the risks of the surgery and explain it fully and in a language the patient can understand. If the surgeon doesn't have such a program, I'd avoid that surgeon like the plague!
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 13:47:16 GMT -5
I'm guessing you didn't read past the first post. This isn't what she's wanting to hear. I read some, not sure if all. It's been a couple of days now. There's like 10 freaking pages, and I've been busy. That's all I've got to say on the subject. It doesn't toe the company line, and I don't have any desire to go round and round. Oh, I agree with you. I'm just warning you that we're the minority here.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jan 21, 2016 13:48:10 GMT -5
One of the scary things to me about plastic surgery and stuff is that you don't have to be licensed to do it! Your dentist can go to a 3 day seminar in Hawaii and come back claiming he can do all sorts of cosmetic surgery. I do think that as a whole there needs to be better education regarding who is and isn't qualified to do surgery. There was a transgender person on Botched who had her boob job fixed. She went to a "surgeon" for the first one and he did an awful job. The doctor on the show explained that doing a breast job on a male is very difficult due to the difference in anatomy, the majority of doctors won't even take it on for various reasons. Then there was another one that went down to Mexico to have facial surgery and they filled her cheeks with CEMENT! They couldn't do anything for her during the epsiode she was in, but in a later episode they said they think they may have found a solution for her. I hope to see that episode. If "surgeons" can do those things to boobs and faces I cannot fathom the damage they can do trying to construct a new genital area. It would be very hard to quanitate since you probably would not get enough people to admit it but I wonder how the suicide rates post gender reassignment surgery differ between having it done by a licensed experienced surgeon in the states vs getting it done by anyone who calls themselves a "surgeon". If you are old enough to decide that you want a surgery, you are old enough to figure out whether your surgeon has the right qualifications. Bc if you can't figure out that, you have no business permanently altering your body I wish any surgery was that simple, but it isn't. The first of my husband's 4 surgeries was an orthoscopic shoulder surgery. That was the diagnosed problem. Go in, clean it out, you will be as good as new (after 6 months of physical therapy that did not help). We go to the 6 week post op. DH "my shoulder still hurts". PA " well I guess it wasn't your shoulder. Go back to your GP". Goodbye. And Goodbye $4000 that we paid out of pocket for the PT, MRIs, and surgery. Even good medical professionals can suck.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 13:52:34 GMT -5
I think the trouble with transgender discussions (and other controversial issues) is that people are uninformed. It was lovely that Honeysalt shared her story, but the fact is her story is NOT uncommon. If you have the need to voice an opinion on a subject, it would be prudent to research it so your opinion is based on fact. Sitting in your chair and spouting off doesn't do you (or the conversation) anything good. Assuming YMers are more intellectual than the average bear, you'd think more people would voice informed opinions vs just emotions/feelings. The latest science on trans is that hormone surges during pregnancy alter the brains of developing fetuses, even though their gender was determined when they were a zygote. There is documented evidence of this. As such, being trans could be considered a birth defect. If the birth defect was a stunted limb everyone would be fine with getting it fixed. That the birth defect involves sex organs, suddenly everyone freaks out. Most of you know I have a trans son. This issue is complex and I think until you are exposed to it IRL, you just don't have a clue. Fortunately more trans people are feeling safe about sharing their story, and as their stories become more common it won't seem so "freakish" to those who haven't been exposed to the condition. Once it isn't so freakish, trans people will feel safer "coming out" earlier vs waiting 40 years. Thanks so much for weighing in on this! Yes people are perfectly entitled to their opinions, but it just makes me sad when intelligent people form opinions based on ignorance (lack of facts) or refusal to accept facts.
And (sad lol) why does it always seem to come back to sex? Sex and mental illness - the two things about which our culture seems to have some kind of abhorrent fascination .
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jan 21, 2016 13:53:33 GMT -5
I think the trouble with transgender discussions (and other controversial issues) is that people are uninformed. It was lovely that Honeysalt shared her story, but the fact is her story is NOT uncommon. If you have the need to voice an opinion on a subject, it would be prudent to research it so your opinion is based on fact. Sitting in your chair and spouting off doesn't do you (or the conversation) anything good. Assuming YMers are more intellectual than the average bear, you'd think more people would voice informed opinions vs just emotions/feelings. The latest science on trans is that hormone surges during pregnancy alter the brains of developing fetuses, even though their gender was determined when they were a zygote. There is documented evidence of this. As such, being trans could be considered a birth defect. If the birth defect was a stunted limb everyone would be fine with getting it fixed. That the birth defect involves sex organs, suddenly everyone freaks out. Most of you know I have a trans son. This issue is complex and I think until you are exposed to it IRL, you just don't have a clue. Fortunately more trans people are feeling safe about sharing their story, and as their stories become more common it won't seem so "freakish" to those who haven't been exposed to the condition. Once it isn't so freakish, trans people will feel safer "coming out" earlier vs waiting 40 years. You say it's a mental issue, but then want to treat it as a physical issue. If the birth defect was a stunted limb, to use your example, what you are proposing is the equivalent of treating it with brain surgery. Mental and physical illnesses aren't mutually exclusive. Depression is a common mental illness. It is usually caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain which can often be corrected through the use of antidepressant medication. Is that not also a physical solution to a "mental issue"?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 13:56:13 GMT -5
You say it's a mental issue, but then want to treat it as a physical issue. If the birth defect was a stunted limb, to use your example, what you are proposing is the equivalent of treating it with brain surgery. Mental and physical illnesses aren't mutually exclusive. Depression is a common mental illness. It is usually caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain which can often be corrected through the use of antidepressant medication. Is that not also a physical solution to a "mental issue"? I wish I could 'like' this post a million times over.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 13:56:44 GMT -5
I do have to ask, if you aren't being made to pay for it what does it matter if someone chooses to go thru the lengthy process to get approved and go thru with the surgery? It is their body, not yours. I can't wrap my brain around wanting it b/c I don't feel that I am in the wrong body. But I don't have to understand it or even agree with it to be supportive, IMO. After reading about the people who want to be amputees I feel the same way. I think it's absolutely insane but is the alternative of them lopping off their own limb or committing suicide over it a better alternative? If having it removed by a licensed professional will give them peace why should I stop them? There is still so much we don't understand about the brain. We're also locked into Victorian/Puritian definitions of what gender has to mean and do not seem capable of shaking them. I think over time we're going to find humans are a lot more fluid than we want to believe we are and that's going to upset A LOT of people. However it could be quite freeing for those who find themselves not fitting into what society has determined we must be in regards to male/female.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 13:58:52 GMT -5
But I don't have to understand it or even agree with it to be supportive, IMO. THIS is the crux of what many people have been saying for the past 10 pages. But it seems to get lost on the folks that want to take offense because people disagree with their particular stance (whatever that happens to be).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:01:27 GMT -5
Why don't we try to figure out what is causing them to want to cut a limb off and fix that?
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 14:06:56 GMT -5
You say it's a mental issue, but then want to treat it as a physical issue. If the birth defect was a stunted limb, to use your example, what you are proposing is the equivalent of treating it with brain surgery. Mental and physical illnesses aren't mutually exclusive. Depression is a common mental illness. It is usually caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain which can often be corrected through the use of antidepressant medication. Is that not also a physical solution to a "mental issue"? No. It is, as you said, medically treating a problem. Perhaps that is what this guy needs. I don't know. Are you equating taking a pill to surgically removing one's genitalia?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 21, 2016 14:07:15 GMT -5
Why don't we try to figure out what is causing them to want to cut a limb off and fix that? That's a good idea. If it's possible.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 14:08:49 GMT -5
Why don't we try to figure out what is causing them to want to cut a limb off and fix that? It's only extremely recently that any research has come out to show there is an actual physical basis for the problem. That there is a disconnect or mis-wiring of the brain that leads the person to believe the limb shouldn't be there. Right now the treatment is anti-depressants or anti-psychoics which come with their own severe side effects and issues and have shown little success. Why can't there be both options? You can choose to take the cure if it is offered or choose to have your limb removed after you've been screened and approved? And I imagine the screening/approval process would be a long one and intensive one just like it is currently with getting approved for gender reassignment surgery. Which it should be.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 14:10:44 GMT -5
Mental and physical illnesses aren't mutually exclusive. Depression is a common mental illness. It is usually caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain which can often be corrected through the use of antidepressant medication. Is that not also a physical solution to a "mental issue"? No. It is, as you said, medically treating a problem. Perhaps that is what this guy needs. I don't know. Are you equating taking a pill to surgically removing one's genitalia? Well I should probably let midjd answer for herself, but I felt compelled (as some who works in public mental health) to respond by saying I *think* what she is saying/inferring is that the mind/body connection is *far* more delicate and intricate than most people realize.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jan 21, 2016 14:12:06 GMT -5
Mental and physical illnesses aren't mutually exclusive. Depression is a common mental illness. It is usually caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain which can often be corrected through the use of antidepressant medication. Is that not also a physical solution to a "mental issue"? No. It is, as you said, medically treating a problem. Perhaps that is what this guy needs. I don't know. Are you equating taking a pill to surgically removing one's genitalia? I didn't equate anything. Just pointing out that there are a lot of commonly-accepted physical solutions to mental health issues. I would consider hormone therapy for those who identify as trans to be analogous to SSRIs for depression, lithium for bipolar disorder, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:12:26 GMT -5
I think the trouble with transgender discussions (and other controversial issues) is that people are uninformed. It was lovely that Honeysalt shared her story, but the fact is her story is NOT uncommon. If you have the need to voice an opinion on a subject, it would be prudent to research it so your opinion is based on fact. Sitting in your chair and spouting off doesn't do you (or the conversation) anything good. Assuming YMers are more intellectual than the average bear, you'd think more people would voice informed opinions vs just emotions/feelings. The latest science on trans is that hormone surges during pregnancy alter the brains of developing fetuses, even though their gender was determined when they were a zygote. There is documented evidence of this. As such, being trans could be considered a birth defect. If the birth defect was a stunted limb everyone would be fine with getting it fixed. That the birth defect involves sex organs, suddenly everyone freaks out. Most of you know I have a trans son. This issue is complex and I think until you are exposed to it IRL, you just don't have a clue. Fortunately more trans people are feeling safe about sharing their story, and as their stories become more common it won't seem so "freakish" to those who haven't been exposed to the condition. Once it isn't so freakish, trans people will feel safer "coming out" earlier vs waiting 40 years. Thanks so much for weighing in on this! Yes people are perfectly entitled to their opinions, but it just makes me sad when intelligent people form opinions based on ignorance (lack of facts) or refusal to accept facts.
And (sad lol) why does it always seem to come back to sex? Sex and mental illness - the two things about which our culture seems to have some kind of abhorrent fascination .
When people are willing to be honest about what they think on a subject the more effective response is to share information that shows where they may have their facts wrong. And genitalia is not just about sex, it is also about reproductive ability. Amongst other things. I'm not sure what makes you say our culture has an abhorrent fascination with mental illness.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 14:15:15 GMT -5
There are plenty of people with perfectly functioning genitalia that conforms to their genetic sex that choose not to have children.
I'm assuming people who undergo reassignment surgery understand that they will lose that ability.
And having proper functioning sex organs isn't the only way to have children. Rae and her partner used a sperm donor.
There are also surrogates and adoption.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:18:37 GMT -5
I don't challenge the idea that there was a surge of hormones. But as honey showed us, gender is a social construct. Why wouldn't we change or enhance our social construct to include this circumstance rather than have someone surgically alter themselves to fit into it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:21:09 GMT -5
Why can't there be lots of options so that whoever is actually going through the situation can make the best choices for themselves and their quality of life over the long term?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:22:19 GMT -5
Honey actually gave several examples of individuals who ultimately chose physical changes which benefited their quality of life.
And again, it's a decision many nontransgendered individuals make as well, to undergo a physical change in order to increase their quality of life.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 21, 2016 14:22:47 GMT -5
I think it'd be great if we could move past rigid gender constructs, many of which have been debunked in science for a LONG time. But I also don't fault people for wanting to fit in either, it's human nature to want to fit in with others. IMO if you've done your homework and you're determine to go thru with reassignment surgery why should I stop you? I can disagree with it but at the end of the day they are the ones that have to live in their body and with their decisions. What right do I have to decide what is best for them? That should be between them, their doctors and/or therapists.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 14:26:18 GMT -5
I think it'd be great if we could move past rigid gender constructs, many of which have been debunked in science for a LONG time. But I also don't fault people for wanting to fit in either, it's human nature to want to fit in with others. And because it is human nature to want to "fit in," it is also sad that some folks have to hide who they really are for fear of the judgment and ostracism of others who are not willing to live and let live.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:35:06 GMT -5
I think it'd be great if we could move past rigid gender constructs, many of which have been debunked in science for a LONG time. But I also don't fault people for wanting to fit in either, it's human nature to want to fit in with others. IMO if you've done your homework and you're determine to go thru with reassignment surgery why should I stop you? I can disagree with it but at the end of the day they are the ones that have to live in their body and with their decisions. What right do I have to decide what is best for them? That should be between them, their doctors and/or therapists. I haven't said anything about making the decision for them.
I did some googling and as someone else mentioned earlier it is only a small percentage of transgender that want surgery. Out of the percentage that have surgery 50% are still unhappy enough to commit suicide. To me that is a big indication that the body isn't the issue.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 21, 2016 14:47:10 GMT -5
I think it'd be great if we could move past rigid gender constructs, many of which have been debunked in science for a LONG time. But I also don't fault people for wanting to fit in either, it's human nature to want to fit in with others. IMO if you've done your homework and you're determine to go thru with reassignment surgery why should I stop you? I can disagree with it but at the end of the day they are the ones that have to live in their body and with their decisions. What right do I have to decide what is best for them? That should be between them, their doctors and/or therapists. It would great if society could move past what is deemed attractive as well. But I'm telling you if I were born with a giant mole covering my cheek, or a hump, or any other birth defect I hated and could be corrected - I would fix it. And I feel like I wouldn't get the same reaction from people about how I shouldn't mutilate myself. Or that I shouldn't feel how I felt.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 15:02:29 GMT -5
I can disagree with it but at the end of the day they are the ones that have to live in their body and with their decisions. What right do I have to decide what is best for them? That should be between them, their doctors and/or therapists. I agree- I can tell you that if I woke up one morning with no boobs and external male genitalia I'd feel darned weird and would want breast implants and would want to have the penis, etc., removed because that's not who I am. That's the closest I can come to imagining what it might be like to have the physical characteristic of one sex and feel like I really identified with the other sex.
honeysalt, if I can ask another question: your story so much reminds me of one of the "Stories for Free Children" in an early edition of Ms. Magazine. The story was about "Baby It", whose parents resolved that their child would not be subjected to gender stereotypes, so they sometimes dressed It in jeans and T-shorts, sometimes in a dress, bought It trucks and construction toys as well as baby dolls, etc. When someone asked if the child were a boy or a girl they'd reply, "It's an It"! While I loved the idea of not identifying the child's sex so that people wouldn't apply old stereotypes ("He could be President! She could be Miss America!") I realized it wasn't practical in real life. How did you and your parents deal with people who wanted to know what sex you were when you were still sorting it out- especially the school system?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 15:12:24 GMT -5
For those that care, I insisted on the word mutilate to emphasise the severity of the changes being made and was not saying the end result look deformed. I don't think we should be at all casual about the fact that some people feel they need to do this to themselves to fit in and I think that we as a society should make the changes necessary to make it so.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 15:18:20 GMT -5
For those that care, I insisted on the word mutilate to emphasise the severity of the changes being made and was not saying the end result look deformed. I don't think we should be at all casual about the fact that some people feel they need to do this to themselves to fit in and I think that we as a society should make the changes necessary to make it so. Well FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the part that says "we should just change society to be more accepting," but in reality - good luck with that; especially when you have folks around who appear to me more than willing to call others who are different from them "lunatics/lunacy," "morally wrong," "self-mutilators," "mentally whacked" . . . you get the idea.
And that's just this thread. Think of what it is like out there in the world . . .
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 21, 2016 15:20:49 GMT -5
laterbloomer and oped - I actually think you both want the same thing in the end - a better way for our society to deal with gender and gender fluidity, especially since neither gender nor biological sex are actually dichotomies, they are continuums. To me, later, the big clarification is that the body isn't the ONLY issue. That does not mean the body is not an issue at all, just that there is more to it. So surgery can be a great boon to some, but it is not, in and of itself, the answer. That doesn't mean we should bar people from having surgery. It means we need to strengthen our support systems around this issue in all facets.
Thank you Formerly SK for being brave enough to pop into this thread.
No one had to read the whole thread to know what kind of advice I was looking for. Only the thread title and the original post are needed for that. Yes, I am looking for compassionate advice, absolutely. If I were looking for advice on how to force the spouse to leave or make her stay, I would have asked that. Instead, I asked for advice on how to support her, period. There is not a right or wrong answer to this question. There is only what is right for her, and as her friend, I want to make sure I support her regardless of whether she chooses to stay in the marriage or leave it. But yes, this means I will choose to ignore any advice that presumes there is a right answer. Amazingly enough, in the end, I will probably end up ignoring the majority of the advice given in this thread. What I will do is take the advice people have given me, sort through it for the bits and pieces that make the most sense for myself, my friends, and our relationship, and those are the pieces I will use. The rest will, in fact, be ignored.
If, after reading the OP, the response someone felt was needed was to give me a "right" way for the wife to handle the situation, then the purpose of that was to push their own agenda or right and wrong, not to answer my question or provide me with helpful advice, because it should be obvious to anyone with reading comprehension skills that that was not what I was asking for. It's like I asked for instructions on how to roast a turkey and you said "meat is evil. here is how you roast squash." It is not necessarily wrong information, but it does not answer the question being asked. As a note, I have many vegetarian and vegan friends. If I asked a question about how to prepare turkey to a group that contained those folks, I would expect them not to answer, or at most say "I have no idea, but if you need a great squash recipe, I've got one."
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