gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 15:20:59 GMT -5
For those that care, I insisted on the word mutilate to emphasise the severity of the changes being made and was not saying the end result look deformed. I don't think we should be at all casual about the fact that some people feel they need to do this to themselves to fit in and I think that we as a society should make the changes necessary to make it so. Well FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the part that says "we should just change society to be more accepting," but in reality - good luck with that; especially when you have folks around who appear to me more than willing to call others who are different from them "lunatics/lunacy," "morally wrong," "self-mutilators," "mentally whacked" . . . you get the idea.
And that's just this thread. Think of what it is like out there in the world . . .
I trust you understand the purpose of reproductive organs.
If not, they're not there just so everyone was born with a toy to play with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 15:25:08 GMT -5
For those that care, I insisted on the word mutilate to emphasise the severity of the changes being made and was not saying the end result look deformed. I don't think we should be at all casual about the fact that some people feel they need to do this to themselves to fit in and I think that we as a society should make the changes necessary to make it so. Well FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the part that says "we should just change society to be more accepting," but in reality - good luck with that; especially when you have folks around who appear to me more than willing to call others who are different from them "lunatics/lunacy," "morally wrong," "self-mutilators," "mentally whacked" . . . you get the idea.
And that's just this thread. Think of what it is like out there in the world . . .
FWIW I think that honey did a lot to shift greg's views just on this thread. As for me, I will always hold out hope that we can make the changes needed that people don't feel the need to go to those extremes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 15:27:03 GMT -5
Well FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the part that says "we should just change society to be more accepting," but in reality - good luck with that; especially when you have folks around who appear to me more than willing to call others who are different from them "lunatics/lunacy," "morally wrong," "self-mutilators," "mentally whacked" . . . you get the idea.
And that's just this thread. Think of what it is like out there in the world . . .
I trust you understand the purpose of reproductive organs.
If not, they're not there just so everyone was born with a toy to play with.
Or not
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 15:36:27 GMT -5
Well FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the part that says "we should just change society to be more accepting," but in reality - good luck with that; especially when you have folks around who appear to me more than willing to call others who are different from them "lunatics/lunacy," "morally wrong," "self-mutilators," "mentally whacked" . . . you get the idea.
And that's just this thread. Think of what it is like out there in the world . . .
I trust you understand the purpose of reproductive organs.
If not, they're not there just so everyone was born with a toy to play with.
Well as far as I was able to research in graduate school (I have a master's in counseling psychology), human beings are the only species that uses their genitalia for both purposes (reproduction AND recreation). If anyone has uncovered any further research on the subject (since the late 90's) that contradicts this (as in, there are other species on this planet that use their genitalia for more than reproductive purposes), I'm open to reviewing the research.
I do not believe we should judge anyone for how they choose to use their reproductive organs - that is their business and theirs alone (and secondarily the business of any partner with whom they choose to engage with their sexual expression). I know there are certain, um, religious groups out there who preach that it is morally wrong for humans to use their genitalia for any reason except reproduction, but clearly I happen to disagree. I happen to have also seen the fallout of *some* folks who preach this moral imperative: they are the ones who get caught in airport restrooms with some stranger's d*ck down their throats. Or who get caught propositioning call girls when they have a "faithful wife" at home. Or who preach abstinence but end up with children born out of wedlock to multiple baby daddies.
One does not need to look very far to find hundreds of examples.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 15:37:00 GMT -5
Well FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the part that says "we should just change society to be more accepting," but in reality - good luck with that; especially when you have folks around who appear to me more than willing to call others who are different from them "lunatics/lunacy," "morally wrong," "self-mutilators," "mentally whacked" . . . you get the idea.
And that's just this thread. Think of what it is like out there in the world . . .
FWIW I think that honey did a lot to shift greg's views just on this thread. As for me, I will always hold out hope that we can make the changes needed that people don't feel the need to go to those extremes. I too hold out the same hope!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 15:39:14 GMT -5
For those that care, I insisted on the word mutilate to emphasise the severity of the changes being made and was not saying the end result look deformed. I don't think we should be at all casual about the fact that some people feel they need to do this to themselves to fit in and I think that we as a society should make the changes necessary to make it so. Your post # 207 mu·ti·late. [ˈmyo͞odlˌāt] VERB 1. (be mutilated) inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on: "the leg was badly mutilated" · synonyms: mangle · maim · disfigure · butcher · dismember · I know what I am saying and it is what I mean to say.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 15:39:36 GMT -5
I trust you understand the purpose of reproductive organs.
If not, they're not there just so everyone was born with a toy to play with.
Well as far as I was able to research in graduate school (I have a master's in counseling psychology), human beings are the only species that uses their genitalia for both purposes (reproduction AND recreation). If anyone has uncovered any further research on the subject (since the late 90's) that contradicts this (as in, there are other species on this planet that use their genitalia for more than reproductive purposes), I'm open to reviewing the research.
I do not believe we should judge anyone for how they choose to use their reproductive organs - that is their business and theirs alone (and secondarily the business of any partner with whom they choose to engage with their sexual expression). I know there are certain, um, religious groups out there who preach that it is morally wrong for humans to use their genitalia for any reason except reproduction, but clearly I happen to disagree. I also happen to have also seen the fallout of *some* folks who preach this moral imperative: they are the ones who get caught in airport restrooms with some stranger's d*ck down their throats. Or who get caught propositioning call girls when they have a "faithful wife" at home. Or who preach abstinence but end up with children born out of wedlock to multiple baby daddies.
One does not need to look very far to find hundreds of examples.
I've seen a male dog masturbate. Only one, however, so that is likely a statistical oddity.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 15:43:39 GMT -5
Well as far as I was able to research in graduate school (I have a master's in counseling psychology), human beings are the only species that uses their genitalia for both purposes (reproduction AND recreation). If anyone has uncovered any further research on the subject (since the late 90's) that contradicts this (as in, there are other species on this planet that use their genitalia for more than reproductive purposes), I'm open to reviewing the research.
I do not believe we should judge anyone for how they choose to use their reproductive organs - that is their business and theirs alone (and secondarily the business of any partner with whom they choose to engage with their sexual expression). I know there are certain, um, religious groups out there who preach that it is morally wrong for humans to use their genitalia for any reason except reproduction, but clearly I happen to disagree. I also happen to have also seen the fallout of *some* folks who preach this moral imperative: they are the ones who get caught in airport restrooms with some stranger's d*ck down their throats. Or who get caught propositioning call girls when they have a "faithful wife" at home. Or who preach abstinence but end up with children born out of wedlock to multiple baby daddies.
One does not need to look very far to find hundreds of examples.
I've seen a male dog masturbate. Only one, however, so that is likely a statistical oddity. Yeah, I'm talking about a meta-analysis, not one individual.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 15:48:23 GMT -5
I've seen a male dog masturbate. Only one, however, so that is likely a statistical oddity. Yeah, I'm talking about a meta-analysis, not one individual. You've got me there. I didn't write a thesis about it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 21, 2016 15:49:29 GMT -5
FWIW I think that honey did a lot to shift greg's views just on this thread. As for me, I will always hold out hope that we can make the changes needed that people don't feel the need to go to those extremes. I too hold out the same hope! I believe most thinking people hold that hope. The problem I see is that societal changes take an excruciatingly long time to get traction and actually result in change. In the meantime, those who feel they don't fit in are left to suffer feelings of rejection. If those feelings are having a negative effect on their daily lives strong enough to cause them undue distress, they have every right to take action to try to improve their lives in whatever way they can. We live only once.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 21, 2016 15:49:30 GMT -5
I've seen a male dog masturbate. Only one, however, so that is likely a statistical oddity. Yeah, I'm talking about a meta-analysis, not one individual. Drama might know of animal studies. I have a vague thought that assorted primates and a couple of other species have been observed but I don't have documentation.
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honeysalt
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Post by honeysalt on Jan 21, 2016 15:52:15 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Benstorm@hotmail.com I can't say I am a fan of gender reassignment surgery either but that's b/c I can't wrap my brain around wanting it.If I knew a person going thru it I'd keep my mouth shut and be supportive, it is their body not mine. Gender reassignment surgery is the LAST step for a transgender person or is supposed to be in the states. In order to get approved for the surgery you have to have recieved an official diagnosis of transgenderism from a specialist, lived as your chosen gender for a certain amount of time and/or have done hormonal therapy. Your case then goes in front of an ethics committee at the hospital. There are only a handful of places in the country experienced to do the surgery. You can't just walk into any old hospital and say "chop my body part off" and they say OKAY. Which is why a lot of people end up going to third world countries to get the surgery done b/c they don't ask questions if you have the cash. Which leads to horrible results. I am assuming most people who get the surgery have weighed the risks/benefits for themselves and come to a conclusion. While I might not agree it's not my place to tell them what to do with their bodies. It was brought up earlier in the thread but there is a huge debate raging concerning people who want to be amputees as well. There is research coming out showing there is a miswiring/disconnect in the brain which leads to the desire to want to amputate the offending appendange. Many people try to do it themselves with horrible results. The debate is doctors vow to do no harm, voluntary amputation of a healthy limb is considered doing harm. Yet they see the people who self amputate come in and have to save their lives. There is also a high suicide rate among these people. So are they doing more harm by NOT amputating? It's really interesting stuff when you start reading about it. There is more to it than people just being "whacked in the head". It is hard to understand. The idea of genital surgery is scary, my guess is that even those who elect to do it, do it in spite of their fears. Also, like all things sexual, it is something that is horrific if done against someone's will. When someone's gender and sexuality don't match up in the way people expect, it can also threaten personal and sexual identity, which is also scary. There is a Trans supermodel who came out on the Ted stage. She had passed not as only being born a woman, but being born the cultural ideal of a woman. My guess is that some men felt threatened because they found her sexually attractive. My guess is some women were threatened because their own physical beauty couldn't compare (from the standpoint of the cultural ideal) to someone who was born a man. Most people want to believe that who they are attracted to matches what they believe about their own sexual identity. This isn't limited to straight people. A number of Trans and intersexed people have expressed difficulty dating lesbians and gay men, particularly middle aged and older people. Those people fought hard to be able to date someone of their own gender, and dating a "real man" or a "real woman" is sometimes very important to them. When we find out that we can't always identify who "real men" and "real women" are, it can be upsetting.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jan 21, 2016 15:54:29 GMT -5
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 15:55:23 GMT -5
I too hold out the same hope! I believe most thinking people hold that hope. The problem I see is that societal changes take an excruciatingly long time to get traction and actually result in change. In the meantime, those who feel they don't fit in are left to suffer feelings of rejection. If those feelings are having a negative effect on their daily lives strong enough to cause them undue distress, they have every right to take action to try to improve their lives in whatever way they can. We live only once. Now I'm a non thinking person because my beliefs aren't the same as yours?
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 15:56:42 GMT -5
LOL! We've managed to derail this thread spectacularly!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 21, 2016 15:58:58 GMT -5
I believe most thinking people hold that hope. The problem I see is that societal changes take an excruciatingly long time to get traction and actually result in change. In the meantime, those who feel they don't fit in are left to suffer feelings of rejection. If those feelings are having a negative effect on their daily lives strong enough to cause them undue distress, they have every right to take action to try to improve their lives in whatever way they can. We live only once. Now I'm a non thinking person because my beliefs aren't the same as yours? I don't know if you're a non-thinking person. Are you? I used the word "most" to avoid reference to all people.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 16:02:05 GMT -5
Now I'm a non thinking person because my beliefs aren't the same as yours? I don't know if you're a non-thinking person. Are you? I used the word "most" to avoid reference to all people. Splitting hairs now, aren't we? You posted in reference to another post. That one referenced me learning something from this thread. An insult doesn't bother me, unless it comes from someone who condemns other people giving insults.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 16:02:49 GMT -5
yeah, but it's Wikipedia . . . . .
And observed homosexual activity in *some* animals does not mean it is done for pleasure. Could be, but not necessarily. Animals can't use our words to tell us why they do things. Some animals engage in this behavior because they have reproductive (not pleasure) urges but no available opposite-sex partners.
The same animals who seem "eager" to trade sex for rocks won't actually do it if they are not in estrus (heat). Also reference the availability of partners above.
And then in all fairness I HAVE seen some studies that suggest rampant pollution of the planet is damaging the chromosomes and hormones of some animals (gender-bendering) and changing some behaviors.
I'd like to see if NomoreDramaQ1015 has any legit research in the last 15 or so years!
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honeysalt
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Post by honeysalt on Jan 21, 2016 16:06:56 GMT -5
I can disagree with it but at the end of the day they are the ones that have to live in their body and with their decisions. What right do I have to decide what is best for them? That should be between them, their doctors and/or therapists. I agree- I can tell you that if I woke up one morning with no boobs and external male genitalia I'd feel darned weird and would want breast implants and would want to have the penis, etc., removed because that's not who I am. That's the closest I can come to imagining what it might be like to have the physical characteristic of one sex and feel like I really identified with the other sex.
honeysalt, if I can ask another question: your story so much reminds me of one of the "Stories for Free Children" in an early edition of Ms. Magazine. The story was about "Baby It", whose parents resolved that their child would not be subjected to gender stereotypes, so they sometimes dressed It in jeans and T-shorts, sometimes in a dress, bought It trucks and construction toys as well as baby dolls, etc. When someone asked if the child were a boy or a girl they'd reply, "It's an It"! While I loved the idea of not identifying the child's sex so that people wouldn't apply old stereotypes ("He could be President! She could be Miss America!") I realized it wasn't practical in real life. How did you and your parents deal with people who wanted to know what sex you were when you were still sorting it out- especially the school system?
Thank you for asking this, I can see that I haven't been very clear. I have always looked feminine. Everyone assumed I was a girl. When I said my parents let me be a boy, I mean, they let me do stereo typically boy activities as a child and didn't try to get me to make female friends at the many times when I had none. They let me act like a boy from a gender/cultural perspective, but I always looked like a girl and was fine with that. They were against gender specific toys for their own reasons unrelated to my birth defect. They weren't against gender specific clothing. They knew I would have to have surgery the day I was born, and that I wasn't like other girls, but they didn't know that I was intersexed, nor did I until my thirities. They knew that I was gender different because I didn't conform at all to the cultural norms for a girl. They knew I was sexually different, they just didn't know the extent. They thought is was just my genitals and had no idea that it was a much bigger issue biologically. I wasn't sorting out if my gender was a boy or a girl, because I always felt like both and neither at the same time. I was mostly sorting out how to learn to communicate with girls and be accepted by them. The ball gowns actually worked wonders. I became friends with the most popular girls in school for a couple of years. They later told me that they wanted to be my friend because they thought I lived in a mansion because of my ball gowns. Most parents would question if their little girl who got into fist fights and played in the dirt with boys suddenly wanted to wear ball gowns to school. Mine didn't.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 21, 2016 16:08:21 GMT -5
I don't know if you're a non-thinking person. Are you? I used the word "most" to avoid reference to all people. Splitting hairs now, aren't we? You posted in reference to another post. That one referenced me learning something from this thread. An insult doesn't bother me, unless it comes from someone who condemns other people giving insults. No. Not splitting hairs, at all. My post quoted kittensaver and laterbloomer. It didn't quote you. If I wish to direct something I say toward you, I will quote you. I said what I meant. Most (not all) thinking people ...
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 16:08:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm talking about a meta-analysis, not one individual. You've got me there. I didn't write a thesis about it. Nor did I. My thesis was about psychological dynamics in the workplace. But I did write more than one paper on human sexuality.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 21, 2016 16:08:56 GMT -5
Off topic but within the last 6 months or so, I saw an article on a rare species of shark that is reproducing without a sperm donor. My biology is really shaky so I'm not sure if it's cloning or some kind of asexual reproduction or what. But it was interesting.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 16:09:48 GMT -5
Splitting hairs now, aren't we? You posted in reference to another post. That one referenced me learning something from this thread. An insult doesn't bother me, unless it comes from someone who condemns other people giving insults. No. Not splitting hairs, at all. My post quoted kittensaver and laterbloomer. It didn't quote you. If I wish to direct something I say toward you, I will quote you. I said what I meant. Most (not all) thinking people ... ....and later's post quoted me. I believe moderators like to refer to this as a "thinly veiled" insult.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 21, 2016 16:12:20 GMT -5
Off topic but within the last 6 months or so, I saw an article on a rare species of shark that is reproducing without a sperm donor. My biology is really shaky so I'm not sure if it's cloning or some kind of asexual reproduction or what. But it was interesting. Some species of frogs have also been observed to be reproducing without the other gender. Interesting stuff, I agree.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 21, 2016 16:13:06 GMT -5
No. Not splitting hairs, at all. My post quoted kittensaver and laterbloomer. It didn't quote you. If I wish to direct something I say toward you, I will quote you. I said what I meant. Most (not all) thinking people ... ....and later's post quoted me. I believe moderators like to refer to this as a "thinly veiled" insult. What difference does it make who laterbloomer's post might have quoted. I didn't respond to laterbloomer's post. I responded to kittensaver's post. If I'd wished to respond to laterbloomer's post, or to yours, I would have done so. If you'd like to take insult you may certainly do so. No insult was intended. I can guarantee you if I ever decide to insult you, it won't be done on the public boards and you'll have no doubt of the intent to insult. I won't veil it, thinly or otherwise.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 21, 2016 16:14:48 GMT -5
LOL! We've managed to derail this thread spectacularly! Not really. I mean, in some sense, this thread was derailed somewhere on page 2. Which is what I expected. Knowing how controversial the basis for my question was, I did not expect any relevant advice past the first few pages. Beyond that, I knew it would go off the rails. *shrug*
However, articles like this are actually really important. Understanding animal sexuality helps in understanding human sexuality. The multiple studies that have shown homosexual relationships in animals went a long way toward helping people understand that homosexuality in people is something that is often innate, and therefore helped in mainstream acceptance of homosexuality.
Edited to add: Plus, it has never bothered me if my threads have been hijacked or co-opted or gone off the rails. The Job Hunt thread started as me complaining about my job hunt in a space where my overly concerned family wouldn't see it. It is now a place where anyone who is looking for a job or thinking about looking for a job or wants to support those looking for a job posts.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 21, 2016 16:17:21 GMT -5
LOL! We've managed to derail this thread spectacularly! Not really. I mean, in some sense, this thread was derailed somewhere on page 2. Which is what I expected. Knowing how controversial the basis for my question was, I did not expect any relevant advice past the first few pages. Beyond that, I knew it would go off the rails. *shrug*
However, articles like this are actually really important. Understanding animal sexuality helps in understanding human sexuality. The multiple studies that have shown homosexual relationships in animals went a long way toward helping people understand that homosexuality in people is something that is often innate, and therefore helped in mainstream acceptance of homosexuality.I've sure learned a lot since your original post! Maybe you can take something of value from all this.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 21, 2016 16:20:36 GMT -5
LOL! We've managed to derail this thread spectacularly! Not really. I mean, in some sense, this thread was derailed somewhere on page 2. Which is what I expected. Knowing how controversial the basis for my question was, I did not expect any relevant advice past the first few pages. Beyond that, I knew it would go off the rails. *shrug*
However, articles like this are actually really important. Understanding animal sexuality helps in understanding human sexuality. The multiple studies that have shown homosexual relationships in animals went a long way toward helping people understand that homosexuality in people is something that is often innate, and therefore helped in mainstream acceptance of homosexuality.From your posts, I'm sure you're going to be a wonderful support for both of your friends. They're going to need that support and it's wonderful you're there to provide it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 16:22:29 GMT -5
After the chapter on sexuality in psych, daughter spent a few weeks filling lulls in conversation with the factoid ' did you know that 8% percent of Rams are strictly homosexual? '
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 21, 2016 16:30:38 GMT -5
Not really. I mean, in some sense, this thread was derailed somewhere on page 2. Which is what I expected. Knowing how controversial the basis for my question was, I did not expect any relevant advice past the first few pages. Beyond that, I knew it would go off the rails. *shrug*
However, articles like this are actually really important. Understanding animal sexuality helps in understanding human sexuality. The multiple studies that have shown homosexual relationships in animals went a long way toward helping people understand that homosexuality in people is something that is often innate, and therefore helped in mainstream acceptance of homosexuality. I've sure learned a lot since your original post! Maybe you can take something of value from all this. I almost always take something of value from threads I choose to start/participate in. And yes, that includes taking things of value from the posts of people who don't necessarily agree with me, such as yourself, Virgil Showlion, and Lizard Queen. It may not necessarily be what you want me to take from it, but I do learn valuable lessons in how to moderate my own responses and understand what kind of arguments I might come up against and be better prepared to answer them.
I do not block people for saying something that disagrees with my viewpoint. I wanted Virgil blocked because he said something I found hateful, honestly, truly hateful. Since I have been able to read his posts again, he has never made a similar comment on a thread I have read/been involved in. I do not know if that was a "one off", if he has softened his opinion somewhat, or is just better at moderating what he says now or simply chooses to moderate it on threads I start, and honestly it doesn't matter. There's also the possibility that I was especially vulnerable that day and on another day (today included) I would not have been as upset at his comment as I was that day. *shrug* But I do want to say, it was more than just having different viewpoints.
Honestly, if I blocked people I have different viewpoints from on social issues, I would no longer talk to my father or my brother.
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