Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 4, 2015 13:04:00 GMT -5
The study out of Stanford the author cites. It's a very simple matter to look up the Ornish diet and determine precisely what "near-vegan" means. True orthodox veganism is strict. It excludes food dyes made from/by animals, candies containing animal-sourced gelatin, boullion, etc. If a diet includes even one of these, it becomes "near-vegan". I'm not 'pinning' anything on anyone. I did indeed. You disputed it. I concluded "maybe the issue isn't as clean-cut as I thought". I searched around and found articles both for and against. I picked one that was comprehensive, well-written, replete with citations, and that addressed potential counterarguments rather than ignoring them. You disputed that too. I explained why I think it's a persuasive article. I asked whether you could debunk one of its primary claims. Here we are. I'd use the accepted standard practice for running a controlled trial in health sciences, and the accepted standard practice for selecting a representative sample. Such standards do exist. Obviously the researchers in the Stanford study managed to do it. Blinds and double-blinds are only necessary if you're deeply concerned about the objectivity of the researchers.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 4, 2015 14:04:25 GMT -5
*it's near vegan popcorn by the way
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 4, 2015 14:35:09 GMT -5
Probably a dumb question, but couldn't you perform a controlled study on this with animals to determine the effects of a vegan or all-meat diet? Or are our digestive and metabolic systems unique enough that the results wouldn't transfer well?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 4, 2015 14:51:53 GMT -5
You could but animal experiments are generally short lived so you design them in hopes of getting a reaction. So the amount of meat I may feed the animal in an attempt to get a response would when calculated out be more than any human could consume on a regular basis. Same with a vegan diet, I'd have to tailor it in order to garner a response in the time frame I am alloted which wouldn't be the same as a human consuming a normal vegan diet.
It doesn't mean the data collected is irrevalent I'd probably get some good information out of it. BUT it's not the same thing as doing a study in people.
Like Rukh mentioned doing the study with people would be very hard b/c you would have to rely on them being 100% honest and consistent with their dietary reports. The odds you'd be able to get all your test subjects to last thru the end and on top of that never cheat are laughable. That doesn't work in any study involving humans, which is what makes clinical research so difficult.
There is also the ethical concerns of what health effects could result. You don't want someone dropping dead from a heart attack after having been on an all meat diet for X amount of years or developing a deficency after being on a strict vegan diet for X amount of years.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 4, 2015 15:01:41 GMT -5
Probably a dumb question, but couldn't you perform a controlled study on this with animals to determine the effects of a vegan or all-meat diet? Or are our digestive and metabolic systems unique enough that the results wouldn't transfer well? Different animals have different nutritional requirements. These studies need to be longitudinal and animals that have metabolic requirements similar to humans do not have longevity. IOW, you need something like an NHANES study done for something like this. The problem you run into is that animals that most likely have similar nutritional requirements to humans are non-human primates. This is an interesting article, I just skimmed it. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278796/I know that about 10 years ago, we were looking at caloric restriction in non-human primates and got some really interesting information with regards to inflammation. We published on this while ago. I actually forgot I worked on that and got published. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2574803/
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Sept 4, 2015 17:08:54 GMT -5
My uncle is an MD. He says that vegetarians and vegans are categorically the unhealthiest people to walk through his office door. Obesity, lethargy, high triglycerides, hormone problems, vitamin deficiency, kidney problems, osteoarthritis, ... I can't even remember them all. It's sad because most vegans and vegetarians I know have admirable aims (usually related to compassion for animals). But man do they pay a price. Given what I've found in the literature, it seems that your uncle is a very poor physician. He made an assumption that the vegan diet was a causative mechanism for these patients poor health and he was wrong. And he did not even consult the literature. This would have negatively affected their treatment. Are physicians really educated on proper nutrition anyway? I know some of the local medical schools were talking about how they were adding more nutrition classes to the course of study because med students weren't receiving a thorough education on nutrition. Maybe it is a local Texas issue?
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Sept 4, 2015 17:53:58 GMT -5
Given what I've found in the literature, it seems that your uncle is a very poor physician. He made an assumption that the vegan diet was a causative mechanism for these patients poor health and he was wrong. And he did not even consult the literature. This would have negatively affected their treatment. Are physicians really educated on proper nutrition anyway? I know some of the local medical schools were talking about how they were adding more nutrition classes to the course of study because med students weren't receiving a thorough education on nutrition. Maybe it is a local Texas issue? Med schools are sorely lacking in nutrition coursework. They are tested on some nutrition stuff like diet and disease management, but nothing substantial and nothing required. A lot of schools and others in medical education have been realizing that nutrition courses are important. I love this program out of the University of Chicago: www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/07/01/419167750/a-dose-of-culinary-medicine-sends-med-students-to-the-kitchen
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 4, 2015 21:51:59 GMT -5
My uncle is an MD. He says that vegetarians and vegans are categorically the unhealthiest people to walk through his office door. Obesity, lethargy, high triglycerides, hormone problems, vitamin deficiency, kidney problems, osteoarthritis, ... I can't even remember them all. It's sad because most vegans and vegetarians I know have admirable aims (usually related to compassion for animals). But man do they pay a price. Given what I've found in the literature, it seems that your uncle is a very poor physician. He made an assumption that the vegan diet was a causative mechanism for these patients poor health and he was wrong. And he did not even consult the literature. This would have negatively affected their treatment. Distill your argument into a cogent summary and a series of links rather than spamming us with abstracts. I'll address your last three articles, which are the only three whose scope makes them relevant to this discussion. Without exception they're observing isolated effects of veganism being practiced properly, in cultures where vegan diets are the norm and have evolved over centuries (read: not western society). As far as I'm concerned, a North American front-line doctor's sampling of thousands of patients, observing a correlation between vegans and certain serious health problems, is far more relevant to North American veganism in practice than hypothesized low-methionine-linked longevity in the third world. Your knowledge of what my uncle has or hasn't researched is precisely zero. Your grasping at straws in the third world is no basis to reject his conclusions, much less to question his competency as a physician. He's consistently backed up every claim he makes with research in the past, hence I'll pick his brain the next time we talk. In the meantime you can give us all some non-causative explanations for why the vegans who walk into his office are consistently more overweight, more lethargic, and generally in poorer health than the non-vegans. Your inability to find the Stanford study is baffling, but I'll dig it up for you on Sunday after the Sabbath. I'll also post the cited article comparing health-conscious vegans with health-conscious non-vegans.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Sept 5, 2015 7:25:45 GMT -5
I think it would be very difficult for a vegan to be obese. I mean how many chia seeds do you have to eat!!?? So I posit that the people the Doctor is seeing are not truly "vegans". When I decided to become a vegetarian, my doctor cautioned about becoming a macaroni and cheese vegetarian ie load on carbs instead of vegetables. There is a guy at work who is a vegetarian but hates vegetables so not sure how or why he is vegetarian.
I have considered veganism, but for most people the amount of preparation and organization required to be a vegan is beyond what they are willing to do. I have a great vegan cookbook but when you go to prepare a recipe for dinner the first line is " soak the nuts overnight"...ahh..ok...little late for that. Now with more advanced preparation it is tasty.
Aside from the ethical considerations of meat eating, I think it can be healthful to eat some, but probably not as much as we do. I think processed foods are probably more of a health risk than eating the occasional steak.
Like most things eating, exercising, working, drinking - moderation is the key. Our Western view of moderation might be skewed a bit.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Sept 5, 2015 10:34:28 GMT -5
Swedish fish and coke are both vegan (at least google tells me they are). I think it's possible to be healthy or unhealthy as a vegetarian, vegan, or eating meat. It's all about how you do it.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 5, 2015 10:43:43 GMT -5
Oreos are also vegan.
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Sept 5, 2015 13:32:36 GMT -5
Tons of junk food is vegan. Why is it hard to believe they could be overweight or obese? And there is a vegan option for everything these days. You can still stuff your face with processed foods. I know several vegetarians who live on cheese and carbs. My bff from college came for a visit last year and in 3 days she never had a meal with vegetables, unless you count salsa from the Mexican an restaurant. They aren't even getting their daily minimum of vegetables I know one vegan and he loves to feel morally superior... But he eats food out of packages daily, bread everyday and sugar sugar sugar.
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Post by mojothehelpermonkey on Sept 5, 2015 16:43:27 GMT -5
Swedish fish and coke are both vegan (at least google tells me they are). I think it's possible to be healthy or unhealthy as a vegetarian, vegan, or eating meat. It's all about how you do it. I was an unhealthy vegetarian when I was in grad school and would have a box of Milk Duds and a bottle of coke every morning for breakfast. I am now a healthy pescetarian who makes most of my meals at home and only eats fish a few times a month because I still don't really like it. There are many different ways to eat both healthily and unhealthily.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 6, 2015 10:20:41 GMT -5
spamming you with...... original, primary, peer-reviewed scientific literature? I'm criticizing your presentation, not your choice of content. See below for an example of a compact presentation. Note the absence of massive walls of text spread over numerous posts. Also note the absence of "Oh snap!"s, "Say WHAAAAT!?"s, "Testify! Oh testify!"s, and "Can you feel the powah!?"s littering the narrative. As Promised: The A-Z Study, which is both cited and linked-to by my earlier article, is viewable in its entirety here. The Ornish diet is called "near-vegan" and described: "The Ornish diet is an ultra-low-fat vegetarian diet (fat as 10% of calories) that includes almost no animal foods. Small amounts of non-fat dairy and egg whites are allowed in moderation." The aforementioned study demonstrating no correlation between mortality in vegetarians vs. health-conscious non-vegetarians: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8842068Re low-carb diets vs. low-glycemic-index diets on managing type 2 diabetes: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633336/This study associates vegetarianism with increased risk of mental disorders. It draws no conclusions about causation, but it does suggest: Although our knowledge about the association between vegetarian diet and physical health is based on numerous studies, relatively little data is available on the associations between vegetarian diet and mental health. Diverse processes could in principle produce differences between vegetarians and non-vegetarians in rates of mental disorders. On a biological level, nutrition status resulting from vegetarian diet may affect neuronal function and synaptic plasticity, which in turn influences brain processes relevant for onset and maintenance of mental disorders [9,10]. For example, there is strong evidence that long-chain n-3 fatty acids causally affect risk for major depressive disorders [11,12]. Moreover, although evidence is less unequivocal, vitamin B12 levels appear to be causally linked to major depressive disorders. Studies have reported that vegetarians show lower tissue concentrations of long-chain n-3 fatty acids [13,14] and vitamin B12[15,16] which may elevate risk for major depressive disorder. I include it mainly because it makes this salient point (ibid.): During the past decades, increasing knowledge has emerged about the effects of vegetarian diet on nutritional status and physical health. Taken as a whole, studies have shown that vegetarians are in good physical health compared with national averages and as healthy as non-vegetarians with a comparable background and lifestyle [5,6]. This outcome can be explained by the more health-conscious behaviors of vegetarians and by the fact that vegetarian diets are often healthy with the respect to such factors as fat composition [7] and fiber [8]. Again reinforcing my point that what research shows is the comparability of vegetarianism done right and meat-eaters who take their health seriously. These are not the groups my uncle or my family doctor are sampling from. They're sampling from every Tom, Dick, and Harry who identifies as either vegan or non-vegan walking through their door. Their common conclusion based on this sampling is that veganism is extremely easy to screw up. Why? This article suggests deficiencies in n–3 Polyunsaturated fat, vitamin B, vitamin D12, iron, and zinc are common. As for why many in-practice vegans and vegetarians are obese, I haven't had an opportunity to speak with my uncle yet, but this doctor, this doctor (who has nothing but good things to say about vegans' intent; see the end of the article), and this vegan resource give us some good insights. You'll note that all of them agree that veganism entails considerable sacrifice in western society and is difficult for Joe Blow to do well without screwing something up. As Dr. McDougall puts it: Vegans are self-sacrificing and committed to making a difference. When everyone else is certain that it is our God-given right to mistreat and kill cows, pigs, chickens, and fishes in order to be properly nourished; a vegan would rather risk protein and calcium deficiency than to harm these beautiful creatures. Conclusion: If you want to be healthy, eat a healthy omnivorous diet. If you want to be healthy and save the cows, eat a vegan diet at the expense of some self-sacrifice, but for heaven's sake do it with utter vigilance so that your self-sacrifice doesn't also include serious health penalties. This takes us right back to Reply #4, Reply #16, and the crux of my arguments re veganism in Reply #42 and Reply #57.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 6, 2015 12:01:36 GMT -5
I realize your sole research competency is typing keywords into pubmed and skimming abstracts, but you might want to read the articles themselves to enlighten yourself as to why the regrettably non-keyword-labeled consumption habits they're talking about indeed pertain to veganism.
If you can't comprehend how doctors taking a mental census of patient health constitutes sampling of a population, I can't help you there.
If you're going to split hairs about keywords and reject any research pertaining to slightly broader or slightly narrower diet classifications, or to specific consumption habits, then this discussion was over before it started.
What can we agree on? Hopefully we can agree that the scientific evidence supporting a meat-free diet versus a meat-eating low-carb diet is contradictory at best, and that you've failed to provide any sound explanation for my uncle's observations nor a sound rebuttal to his conclusions.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Sept 6, 2015 13:00:02 GMT -5
What can we agree on? Hopefully we can agree that the scientific evidence supporting a meat-free diet versus a meat-eating low-carb diet is contradictory at best, and that you've failed to provide any sound explanation for my uncle's observations nor a sound rebuttal to his conclusions. How about - he's biased and sees what he wants to see? You made an unfounded statement that you cannot find any evidence to back it up, save for some unknown persons anecdotal observations..... but, my research skills are questioned? Love it!I found that hilarious. :-)
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 6, 2015 13:59:59 GMT -5
I do think it's interesting that the knee-jerk response to vegetarian/vegan health is "I know a vegan who weighs 300lbs and only eats candy." Maybe they are the equivalent to the heavy smoker/drinker who lives to 100?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 6, 2015 14:46:10 GMT -5
A vegan friend of mine is a professor. Teaches Anatomy and Physiology and is in his late 50s. He's very fit and healthy and a lovely guy to just sit and talk with. Well informed about almost anything; yet, he's always willing to listen to ideas which differ from his and has said he takes something with him from every conversation. We talked about veganism at one time because mother was starting to refuse meats of any kind and was even resisting fish. He helped me a great deal to be sure she was getting the nutrition she needed. He convinced me it's possible to be vegan and still maintain good health as long as you know what you're doing.
I eat very little meat or fowl. I do eat fish, eggs and milk products. It has nothing to do with any principled stance. I just don't care much for meat. At 73 I'm on no medications (except for a beta blocker I take for essential tremor) and have no health issues. I can't see why it would not be the same for a vegan who is careful and well-informed.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 6, 2015 17:14:40 GMT -5
How about - he's biased and sees what he wants to see? You made an unfounded statement that you cannot find any evidence to back it up, save for some unknown persons anecdotal observations. Look at this from my perspective: I know the man to be thorough and objective. Despite your best efforts, you've failed to provide evidence to suggest his observations are biased or his conclusions are incorrect. Admittedly it would be nice if studies existed on western veganism-in-practice rather than health-conscious vegans on controlled regimens (which is the methodology used by the cited studies) but since none are available, I see no reason not to accept my uncle's conclusions in the meantime. What we do have is evidence that vegetarianism/veganism can indeed go wrong, explanations of how/why this may happen, and plenty of research showing that even if veganism is done right, it underperforms (or at the very least, doesn't outperform) healthy low-carb diets. You've procured zero evidence to contradict this finding either ( ETA: excepting the one study linking longevity to low-methionine diets in the third world; I'll give you that one). but, my research skills are questioned? Love it! I'm questioning your research skills because of your crippling reliance on keywords. In point of fact, your statement: is a gross misrepresentation of the actual findings reported. common? Not one case of deficiency of any of these were reported in the article you claim suggested that an array of deficiencies was common. Was this deliberate? or were you relying on some of those biased websites as a 2nd or 3rd hand interpretation of the actual research? And this is why I always go to the original research to see what the authors' actual research questions was, and how they interpreted the findings. This one is my fault. I posted the wrong link for some reason. The correct link is: ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full. Mea culpa. I will atone for my sin by including the following: On the prevalence of B12 deficiency in vegans: www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/176565On reduced carnosine levels in vegetarians: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00726-010-0749-2On reduced muscle mass in vegetarians: europepmc.org/abstract/MED/17657359When I speak to my uncle next, I'll present your arguments to him and we'll see what he comes back with.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 6, 2015 17:16:53 GMT -5
He convinced me it's possible to be vegan and still maintain good health as long as you know what you're doing. Aye, there's the rub.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 6, 2015 19:10:28 GMT -5
He convinced me it's possible to be vegan and still maintain good health as long as you know what you're doing. Aye, there's the rub. Thing is, though, that's true of just about anything you do. The more you learn about it and the more you put the best into practice, the more successful you're going to be. It's not just veganism to which that applies.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 6, 2015 20:35:59 GMT -5
So, how many studies of vegans with lower BMIs and a lower incident of Obesity will it take to make his "obese vegans" comment incorrect? You can post them until the vegan cows come home. As long as they recruit from health food stores, vegetarian symposiums, and other venues where subjects live and breathe healthy diets; as long as they implement dietary controls during the studies themselves; as long as they don't procure samples that are defensibly representative of vegans at large in western society, their only relevance is to what veganism/vegetarianism looks like when. done. right.Here's one thing I'll grant you: regardless of my uncle's objectivity and accuracy, I readily admit his sampling is biased. People typically only go to the doctor if they're sick, hence the vegans who walk though his door are by and large going to be sick vegans. The non-vegans who walk into his office are going to be sick non-vegans. Hence his observations are necessarily going to pertain to the unheathier (-ist) members of society. I haven't asked him whether the ratio between the two reflects the ratio of vegans to non-vegans in broader society. Since I agree the evidence suggests that veganism done well is a healthier lifestyle than the average high-carb western lifestyle, it may well be that relatively few vegans walk into his office. Even so, the ones that do (whom we can generally assume are doing something wrong) are suffering abnormally large penalties. Veganism is hard. No reasonable person could read though your list of "Yes you have to be sure to..."'s and "You have to..."'s in this thread, or the litany of caveats in the studies we've seen, and conclude otherwise. It involves sacrifices. It involves giving up a huge variety of excellent foods and dishes. Dr. McDougall characterizes the typical vegan as "industrious", motivated, self-sacrificing, and I have no doubt he's right. The OP suggests that dedication to eating right can be strong enough to develop into a neurosis. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of lazy vegans, and the ones who are lazy have no blessed clue what they're doing. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why lazy or incompetent vegans could seriously ratch their health to a greater extent than lazy omnivores, who can at least manage to eat passably well with a modicum of effort. As for your objections, "Your latest posted article was a review article...", "They stated 'may be a concern' instead of 'are'...": they're spurious. We'll just have to disagree on that too. But - you don't get to dismiss the lower BMI, lower diabetes, lower blood pressure, and lower cancer rates for vegans as unimportant artifacts, and then get all holier than thou over a few health issues that vegans don't do as well at, like B12. This is a fair criticism, but I point out: i) the PopSci review devotes a section replete with studies explaining why correlation doesn't imply causation in each of these factors except lower BMI, which might be of interest to you, and ii) the many studies we have comparing (near-)vegan diets with low-carb diets shows the low-carb diets winning in every category. Encourage him to publish his info, then we can talk about it. Until then, he's got an opinion, just like everyone else. I shall indeed pick his brain at my next opportunity and post in this thread.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Sept 7, 2015 5:54:13 GMT -5
Virgil- ask your uncle why he believes everyone that claims to be vegan. People lie to their doctors all the time to try to make themselves look better or to provide an excuse for health issues that people link to laziness or gluttony. Haven't you ever heard that when you report how many drinks you have a week that doctors are trained to double that number (at least) because people notoriously underreport how much they really drink to their MD for fear of judgement. The same sort of thing applies to high blood pressure or cholesterol. People will claim that they exercise regularly or that they don't eat any fast food or processed food because they don't want the high cholesterol or blood pressure to be "their fault." So is it hard to believe that some of those patients might be lying about their dietary habits thinking it makes them look better to the doctor. I have no doubt that your uncle does see some fat, unhealthy vegans that are of the only eat processed and deep fried variety. But he's also hearing from patients that are misrepresenting their medical history or neglecting to add that they just became vegan 2 weeks ago.
And I hope what he does when he encounters an unhealthy vegan is to send them to a registered dietician to help them get educated.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 7, 2015 7:34:27 GMT -5
Virgil- ask your uncle why he believes everyone that claims to be vegan. People lie to their doctors all the time to try to make themselves look better or to provide an excuse for health issues that people link to laziness or gluttony. Haven't you ever heard that when you report how many drinks you have a week that doctors are trained to double that number (at least) because people notoriously underreport how much they really drink to their MD for fear of judgement. The same sort of thing applies to high blood pressure or cholesterol. People will claim that they exercise regularly or that they don't eat any fast food or processed food because they don't want the high cholesterol or blood pressure to be "their fault." So is it hard to believe that some of those patients might be lying about their dietary habits thinking it makes them look better to the doctor. I have no doubt that your uncle does see some fat, unhealthy vegans that are of the only eat processed and deep fried variety. But he's also hearing from patients that are misrepresenting their medical history or neglecting to add that they just became vegan 2 weeks ago. And I hope what he does when he encounters an unhealthy vegan is to send them to a registered dietician to help them get educated. I can ask him. He's really quite personable, and I'm not sure if veganism is something people routinely lie about, but it's certainly a possibility. As best I can recall, he claimed the usual cause is carb hoarding. A vegan (vegetarian, more generally) gets hungry and wants to snack, and what's on the menu? That depends on whether or not he's prepared something nutritious that's going to make him feel full. Today he's already eaten his lunch and is clean out of pre-made snacks, and he's sick of legumes, quinoa, nuts, seitan, and tempeh anyway. (Honestly, I'd go mad in a week. But some people can evidently spice up veggie protein in enough different ways to retain their sanity.) What does that leave? Delicious carbs! And lots of them. And what are the carbs he can get in the building? Anything out of the vending machine, anything carbolicious from the cafe downstairs, that secret chocolate bar or vegan muffin he's got stashed away. And while he's snacking, he may not be too concerned about low-glycemic-index foods, hence he's doomed to crash and get hungry again an hour or two later. Now, Americans are so bloody fat (and Canada's not too far behind) that he's got a lot of carb hoarding to do if he's going to compete with the omnivores eating their triple-breaded greaseball chicken burgers. He does, after all, ostensibly survive on rabbit food. But he's hungry, he isn't driven by the same industrial-strength stay-healthy-while-saving-the-cows ethic as most vegans, and so snacking on high-carb foods is what he does. I'm guessing this is the typical kind of vegan who winds up at the doctor's office a lot, and that when he gets there he's in really bad shape.
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Post by mojothehelpermonkey on Sept 7, 2015 14:05:16 GMT -5
I do think it's interesting that the knee-jerk response to vegetarian/vegan health is "I know a vegan who weighs 300lbs and only eats candy." Maybe they are the equivalent to the heavy smoker/drinker who lives to 100? I think that those who report a heavy smoker/drinker in good health at 100 at least has some awareness that that is an outlier! Veganism seems to scare some people , and anytime they meet a vegan, everything "wrong" with that person is because they are a vegan. I met a fat vegan. Veganism makes you fat! I met an annoying Vegan who talked about themself all night long. Veganism makes you annoying! My aunt became a vegan, and 2 years later she got breast cancer. Veganism causes breast cancer! My vegan grandmother died aged 94. OMG veganism kills you! I enjoy the condescending and poorly informed lectures about the food chain.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Sept 7, 2015 21:00:53 GMT -5
Virgil- ask your uncle why he believes everyone that claims to be vegan. People lie to their doctors all the time to try to make themselves look better or to provide an excuse for health issues that people link to laziness or gluttony. Haven't you ever heard that when you report how many drinks you have a week that doctors are trained to double that number (at least) because people notoriously underreport how much they really drink to their MD for fear of judgement. The same sort of thing applies to high blood pressure or cholesterol. People will claim that they exercise regularly or that they don't eat any fast food or processed food because they don't want the high cholesterol or blood pressure to be "their fault." So is it hard to believe that some of those patients might be lying about their dietary habits thinking it makes them look better to the doctor. I have no doubt that your uncle does see some fat, unhealthy vegans that are of the only eat processed and deep fried variety. But he's also hearing from patients that are misrepresenting their medical history or neglecting to add that they just became vegan 2 weeks ago. And I hope what he does when he encounters an unhealthy vegan is to send them to a registered dietician to help them get educated. I can ask him. He's really quite personable, and I'm not sure if veganism is something people routinely lie about, but it's certainly a possibility. As best I can recall, he claimed the usual cause is carb hoarding. A vegan (vegetarian, more generally) gets hungry and wants to snack, and what's on the menu? That depends on whether or not he's prepared something nutritious that's going to make him feel full. Today he's already eaten his lunch and is clean out of pre-made snacks, and he's sick of legumes, quinoa, nuts, seitan, and tempeh anyway. (Honestly, I'd go mad in a week. But some people can evidently spice up veggie protein in enough different ways to retain their sanity.) What does that leave? Delicious carbs! And lots of them. And what are the carbs he can get in the building? Anything out of the vending machine, anything carbolicious from the cafe downstairs, that secret chocolate bar or vegan muffin he's got stashed away. And while he's snacking, he may not be too concerned about low-glycemic-index foods, hence he's doomed to crash and get hungry again an hour or two later. Now, Americans are so bloody fat (and Canada's not too far behind) that he's got a lot of carb hoarding to do if he's going to compete with the omnivores eating their triple-breaded greaseball chicken burgers. He does, after all, ostensibly survive on rabbit food. But he's hungry, he isn't driven by the same industrial-strength stay-healthy-while-saving-the-cows ethic as most vegans, and so snacking on high-carb foods is what he does. I'm guessing this is the typical kind of vegan who winds up at the doctor's office a lot, and that when he gets there he's in really bad shape. How is that snack situation any different than someone with no dietary restrictions? Your average person would grab the same thing. This is not a vegan-problem. Trying to attribute it will vegans is not seeing the forest for the trees.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 7, 2015 23:38:41 GMT -5
Your average person would grab the same thing. Maybe, or maybe not. They might also head to the Tim's or ground-level convenience store to get a chicken wrap, a fruit and yogurt cup, a turkey sandwich, some chicken noodle soup, some beef jerky, some veggies and dip (cream-based), a bowl of chili, ... Vegans can't eat any of those things.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Sept 8, 2015 8:33:50 GMT -5
Your average person would grab the same thing. Maybe, or maybe not. They might also head to the Tim's or ground-level convenience store to get a chicken wrap, a fruit and yogurt cup, a turkey sandwich, some chicken noodle soup, some beef jerky, some veggies and dip (cream-based), a bowl of chili, ... Vegans can't eat any of those things. I would consider a chicken wrap, turkey sandwich, and a bowl of chili to be a meal and not a snack, unless this snacker of turkey sandwiches is about to go out on a long run or bike ride (which would make it a reasonable snack a couple of hours before physical activity). Convenience stores such as 7-11 and Wawa DO have vegan snack options that aren't chips and cookies. You can get salads, vegan sandwiches, hummus and pita, apples and peanut butter, carrots and celery with peanut butter, fruit, nuts, etc. What you previously described is the typical American snack food diet. Vegans, vegetarians, omnivores, etc. are going to purchase random junk food. It's the American way!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 8, 2015 9:29:14 GMT -5
Omnivore: An animal that eats both animals and plants as primary sources of food. Most omnivores are opportunistic eaters; they eat either based on availability.
In most traditional human societies, diet was primarily based on plants. Even our teeth are shaped such that the fangs are stunted, and the molars and other grinding teeth are prominent.
We can easily survive without meat in our diet. However it is not possible for us to eat a balanced diet based solely on meat consumption.
I say this as a happy and dedicated meat eater. I love steak, chicken, pork, lamb, duck, venison, whatever. I love steak tartar, and I even like the fat- I have to force myself not to eat it, and I often do eat some.
It seems pretty apparent to me though that the animal part of our diet is not required. In fact, we would probably be better off consuming far less meat than most of us do in the US and Canada.
The bottom line for me is: if you want to be healthy and you have no ethical qualms about eating animals, choose a low-carb diet like the Atkins diet. It matches or outperforms vegetarian/vegan diets in the comparative research, and it's significantly less restrictive. If you do have ethical qualms about eating animals, go vegetarian or vegan. Be careful to take all the necessary supplements, eat the necessary amount of protein, and avoid bad habits with excessive carb consumption. Don't be lazy.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 8, 2015 10:00:13 GMT -5
There are approximately 1 million vegans in the US. The other 318 million eat animal products.
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