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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 2, 2015 11:08:47 GMT -5
I was recently diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency, so I am taking supplements and and following up with my doctor. I'm sure alot would like to say "the veganism did it!" but my brother, who eats red meat daily, as well as chicken, fish, eggs and milk galore, and thinks the adkins approach is the best, was ALSO diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency a few years ago.
A lot of this is associated with lack of sun. With so many people concerned about skin cancer from sun exposure, we're not getting sufficient sun which is necessary as well. It's not uncommon to have this in the PNW due to the lack of sun. health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/heart/articles/2008/06/23/time-in-the-sun-how-much-is-needed-for-vitamin-d
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Sept 2, 2015 11:42:19 GMT -5
I gave the list of penalties earlier, straight from the mouth of my uncle on the front lines. Our family doctor says the exact same thing. People screwing up veganism and vegetarianism appears to be the norm, not the exception. Furthermore, doing it well is complicated, especially veganism. The assumption that it isn't is what gets people into trouble. I would never take on vegetarianism purely on a health basis. Sorry, cows, you're too tasty. Oh. Anecdotal sayings from your uncle? You don't say. One doctor? I look at facts and data. Sorry.I love cows as much as the next person. In fact, in Argentina I swore I would eat cow every day it was so damn good. But it doesn't fit into my lifestyle very much. It's ok for him to ask you for 400 studies and links and such but you should just trust him and his 2 doctors.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 2, 2015 11:44:37 GMT -5
I gave the list of penalties earlier, straight from the mouth of my uncle on the front lines. Our family doctor says the exact same thing. People screwing up veganism and vegetarianism appears to be the norm, not the exception. Furthermore, doing it well is complicated, especially veganism. The assumption that it isn't is what gets people into trouble. I would never take on vegetarianism purely on a health basis. Sorry, cows, you're too tasty. Oh. Anecdotal sayings from your uncle? You don't say. One doctor? I look at facts and data. Sorry. I love cows as much as the next person. In fact, in Argentina I swore I would eat cow every day it was so damn good. But it doesn't fit into my lifestyle very much. It's technically two doctors, and they're both very good doctors. If you want studies, this PopSci article links to a litany of peer-reviewed studies to back up each of its claims. I haven't had time to read through the studies themselves. The author's points (1) and (2) are most pertinent to our debate.
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Sept 2, 2015 12:08:29 GMT -5
I have wondered if my trainer who is a gluten free vegan has orthorexia nervosa. To me (who was a vegetarian for 15 years), it seems to be an overly restrictive diet. I am not a doctor and my observations are only my own, but while she seems fit from a muscle perspective, she sure seemed to catch every cold that came around last winter. I may need to lose 20lbs but I haven't been sick in a few years. Is it just my immune system seems to work better or that she may be missing some vital nutrients? Or even if she is eating enough? I cannot say with certainty it is her diet or just her genetics.
I personally think the motto "eat food, not too much, mostly plants" is probably the best "diet" advice ever given.
I actually get annoyed at restaurants who give you portions that are enormous. I ordered an appetizer not a main course!! I don't want to have to either: waste food, take it home in a doggy bag or have too much appetizer so I am too full for dessert. One of the best meals I ever had was a tasting menu in Toronto. It was probably 5-7 courses but each course was at most 3 bites. At first we thought = man we are going to need to stop at McDonalds on the way home - but by dessert we were just pleasantly full- not stuffed. Perfect. Wish more places would do that = and maybe cheaper places. Doesn't have to be fancy food. If restaurants split meals up more into courses, salad/soup course, main course, dessert, you could have time to savour each bit and not have to eat a GIANT bowl of pasta. I only need 4 ravioli, not a giant pile of them with a canned sauce.
I'm on a rant here. Food is my thing. I cried when I read The Dorito Effect.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Sept 2, 2015 12:09:11 GMT -5
I was recently diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency, so I am taking supplements and and following up with my doctor. I'm sure alot would like to say "the veganism did it!" but my brother, who eats red meat daily, as well as chicken, fish, eggs and milk galore, and thinks the adkins approach is the best, was ALSO diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency a few years ago.
A lot of this is associated with lack of sun. With so many people concerned about skin cancer from sun exposure, we're not getting sufficient sun which is necessary as well. It's not uncommon to have this in the PNW due to the lack of sun. health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/heart/articles/2008/06/23/time-in-the-sun-how-much-is-needed-for-vitamin-d I thought everyone in PNW was on vitamin D supplements! I am!
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Sept 2, 2015 12:11:09 GMT -5
I have wondered if my trainer who is a gluten free vegan has orthorexia nervosa. To me (who was a vegetarian for 15 years), it seems to be an overly restrictive diet. I am not a doctor and my observations are only my own, but while she seems fit from a muscle perspective, she sure seemed to catch every cold that came around last winter. I may need to lose 20lbs but I haven't been sick in a few years. Is it just my immune system seems to work better or that she may be missing some vital nutrients? Or even if she is eating enough? I cannot say with certainty it is her diet or just her genetics. I personally think the motto "eat food, not too much, mostly plants" is probably the best "diet" advice ever given. I actually get annoyed at restaurants who give you portions that are enormous. I ordered an appetizer not a main course!! I don't want to have to either: waste food, take it home in a doggy bag or have too much appetizer so I am too full for dessert. One of the best meals I ever had was a tasting menu in Toronto. It was probably 5-7 courses but each course was at most 3 bites. At first we thought = man we are going to need to stop at McDonalds on the way home - but by dessert we were just pleasantly full- not stuffed. Perfect. Wish more places would do that = and maybe cheaper places. Doesn't have to be fancy food. If restaurants split meals up more into courses, salad/soup course, main course, dessert, you could have time to savour each bit and not have to eat a GIANT bowl of pasta. I only need 4 ravioli, not a giant pile of them with a canned sauce. I'm on a rant here. Food is my thing. I cried when I read The Dorito Effect. I listened to a discussion on NPR the other day about the cold virus. They said the predictor of whether you caught a cold or not had to do with the amount of sleep you got. (2x the rate of catching the cold with less than 6 hrs of sleep per night). The other things I remember reading had to do with breast feeding. But I think there's enough worms around already, we don't need to open another can.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 2, 2015 12:15:40 GMT -5
I can remember when I was a teen being told "The camera adds 15 pounds." I'm sure that hasn't changed. People look heavier in pictures than they actually are. Mrs. Obama, to me, is a lovely woman. She appears to have a fairly large bone structure which would increase the appearance of being larger than she is. I wouldn't worry too much about her health, however. She looks great, to me. Tall and quite elegant.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 2, 2015 12:29:03 GMT -5
If cameras add 15 pounds I must look like a walking skeleton in person. I'm the same. I am very thin, but don't photograph much heavier. Much has to do with bone structure, but some people just don't fit the "rule of thumb." It works for most, though.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 2, 2015 13:21:08 GMT -5
If cameras add 15 pounds I must look like a walking skeleton in person. If the camera adds 15 pounds, I want to know how many cameras are actually on the first lady.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Sept 2, 2015 13:58:55 GMT -5
I have wondered if my trainer who is a gluten free vegan has orthorexia nervosa. To me (who was a vegetarian for 15 years), it seems to be an overly restrictive diet. I am not a doctor and my observations are only my own, but while she seems fit from a muscle perspective, she sure seemed to catch every cold that came around last winter. I may need to lose 20lbs but I haven't been sick in a few years. Is it just my immune system seems to work better or that she may be missing some vital nutrients? Or even if she is eating enough? I cannot say with certainty it is her diet or just her genetics. I personally think the motto "eat food, not too much, mostly plants" is probably the best "diet" advice ever given. I actually get annoyed at restaurants who give you portions that are enormous. I ordered an appetizer not a main course!! I don't want to have to either: waste food, take it home in a doggy bag or have too much appetizer so I am too full for dessert. One of the best meals I ever had was a tasting menu in Toronto. It was probably 5-7 courses but each course was at most 3 bites. At first we thought = man we are going to need to stop at McDonalds on the way home - but by dessert we were just pleasantly full- not stuffed. Perfect. Wish more places would do that = and maybe cheaper places. Doesn't have to be fancy food. If restaurants split meals up more into courses, salad/soup course, main course, dessert, you could have time to savour each bit and not have to eat a GIANT bowl of pasta. I only need 4 ravioli, not a giant pile of them with a canned sauce. I'm on a rant here. Food is my thing. I cried when I read The Dorito Effect. I listened to a discussion on NPR the other day about the cold virus. They said the predictor of whether you caught a cold or not had to do with the amount of sleep you got. (2x the rate of catching the cold with less than 6 hrs of sleep per night). The other things I remember reading had to do with breast feeding. But I think there's enough worms around already, we don't need to open another can. I was going to ask if the trainer has an infant or toddler. I used to hardly get colds (and if I did get them they'd be for a day or two) and I can remember having a high temperature once in 2nd grade and once in my 20s. Well last year I sickness hopped constantly from September-May. I definitely attribute it to lack of sleep.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 2, 2015 15:31:32 GMT -5
Most people photograph and video larger than they are. I've never seen Michelle Obama IRL but I'm sure she would be surprisingly tall and thin. I remember being amazed at how tiny Matt Lauer and Al Roker were when we went to a taping of Today... That could be or it could just be her proportions. I don't think she looks thin at all
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Sept 2, 2015 15:40:22 GMT -5
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 2, 2015 15:47:54 GMT -5
I don't spend a ton of time looking at pictures of her. The times I do see her she appears to have huge thighs/butt bit she does have nice arms. But when I'm dieting and exercising her body is not the one that I'm striving for.
ETA: I just looked at some of the pictures from your link. I think her upper body is in great shape. None of the pictures I saw just now (didn't look at all that many) made her bottom half look huge like I have seen. Maybe the key is that the dresses I just looked at are more flowing on the bottom. Maybe she just can't pull of form fitting clothes??
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 2, 2015 15:52:06 GMT -5
I'm not understanding the entire michelle obama figure dissection. I've never been her biggest fan, but she seems to be quite healthy. Is she suppose to be "thin"? Why? for whose purposes? I wasn't dissecting her. I was replying to swamp's post that people think she is huge. While I don't think she is huge she is not the body style that I want to emulate. When I'm serious about dieting and fitness I don't want big thighs/butt. But the pictures that meg posted are more flattering than what I have seen. So either she picked a "dresses that flatter Michelle" link or I just remember the really bad pictures of her. Or a little of both.
ETA: And I'm saying what I'm saying as a person who is not skinny right now. I've chubbed up since my divorce. I was just saying that I don't see her pictures and think "beacon of fitness".
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Sept 2, 2015 15:54:37 GMT -5
I think Michelle Obama looks amazing and fit. I seriously need her arm workout! I for one, wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers! I'd probably go get more crackers if that's what keeps her there!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Sept 2, 2015 16:07:43 GMT -5
I'm not understanding the entire michelle obama figure dissection. I've never been her biggest fan, but she seems to be quite healthy. Is she suppose to be "thin"? Why? for whose purposes? She doesn't have to be "thin" but I found it silly that Miss T said she was chunky. I understand it's hard to say anything nice about an Obama, but chunky is just reaching. She is a very fit and healthy woman, but like you said, even if she was 300 pounds her platform of getting families more involved with healthy eating is a great one.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Sept 2, 2015 16:09:36 GMT -5
I'm not understanding the entire michelle obama figure dissection. I've never been her biggest fan, but she seems to be quite healthy. Is she suppose to be "thin"? Why? for whose purposes? I wasn't dissecting her. I was replying to swamp's post that people think she is huge. While I don't think she is huge she is not the body style that I want to emulate. When I'm serious about dieting and fitness I don't want big thighs/butt. But the pictures that meg posted are more flattering than what I have seen. So either she picked a "dresses that flatter Michelle" link or I just remember the really bad pictures of her. Or a little of both.
ETA: And I'm saying what I'm saying as a person who is not skinny right now. I've chubbed up since my divorce. I was just saying that I don't see her pictures and think "beacon of fitness".
I'm not a fan of her in general, but she is fit. Even the larger hips and thighs are fit. She isn't supermodel thin or fitness guru ripped, but I think for the average person she is probably the best model to look at. Someone who's job isn't to stay in shape and has got of other demands as well. My mom and grandma rip her look too when she promotes fitness and health, but frankly it is more they don't like her. ETA the images are a Google search for Michelle Obama fahion. Not exactly picking and choosing the best images.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 2, 2015 16:11:08 GMT -5
I'm not understanding the entire michelle obama figure dissection. I've never been her biggest fan, but she seems to be quite healthy. Is she suppose to be "thin"? Why? for whose purposes? She doesn't have to be "thin" but I found it silly that Miss T said she was chunky. I understand it's hard to say anything nice about an Obama, but chunky is just reaching. No, the pictures I have seen of her gave made her look chunky. And I already admitted that the pictures that you posted are much more flattering. I find it silly that you yhink i would let the fact that she is an Obama color my thoughts on her size. I can't stand obama but I think his daughters are beautiful...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 2, 2015 16:14:02 GMT -5
I'm not understanding the entire michelle obama figure dissection. I've never been her biggest fan, but she seems to be quite healthy. Is she suppose to be "thin"? Why? for whose purposes? She doesn't have to be "thin" but I found it silly that Miss T said she was chunky. I understand it's hard to say anything nice about an Obama, but chunky is just reaching. She is a very fit and healthy woman, but like you said, even if she was 300 pounds her platform of getting families more involved with healthy eating is a great one. That's because you like her. I would find her to be a hypocrite if she had a platform on health and fitness if she was a tubbo...much like all of you found Bristol palin to be a hypocrite for preaching abstinence and then gettig knocked up again.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 2, 2015 16:17:23 GMT -5
I wasn't dissecting her. I was replying to swamp's post that people think she is huge. While I don't think she is huge she is not the body style that I want to emulate. When I'm serious about dieting and fitness I don't want big thighs/butt. But the pictures that meg posted are more flattering than what I have seen. So either she picked a "dresses that flatter Michelle" link or I just remember the really bad pictures of her. Or a little of both.
ETA: And I'm saying what I'm saying as a person who is not skinny right now. I've chubbed up since my divorce. I was just saying that I don't see her pictures and think "beacon of fitness".
I'm not a fan of her in general, but she is fit. Even the larger hips and thighs are fit. She isn't supermodel thin or fitness guru ripped, but I think for the average person she is probably the best model to look at. Someone who's job isn't to stay in shape and has got of other demands as well. My mom and grandma rip her look too when she promotes fitness and health, but frankly it is more they don't like her. ETA the images are a Google search for Michelle Obama fahion. Not exactly picking and choosing the best images. I don't like or dislike her. I despise her husband but don't much care about Michelle or the girls. My thoughts have nothing to do with politics. Before I would go out spouting off about a healthy lifestyle I would make sure I looked fit. Some of the pictures I've seen of get make her bottom half look really big (what I would consider chunky). I'm not sure why we wre all arguing over Michelle Obama. It is all opinion so my opinion doesn't matter to any of you note does your opinion that Im crazy matter to me.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Sept 2, 2015 17:20:23 GMT -5
I can remember when I was a teen being told "The camera adds 15 pounds." I'm sure that hasn't changed. People look heavier in pictures than they actually are. Mrs. Obama, to me, is a lovely woman. She appears to have a fairly large bone structure which would increase the appearance of being larger than she is. I wouldn't worry too much about her health, however. She looks great, to me. Tall and quite elegant. I have seen her up close and in person... She is NOT chunky. Sent from my HTC One_M8 using proboards
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 2, 2015 17:51:12 GMT -5
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Sept 2, 2015 17:51:24 GMT -5
I was recently diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency, so I am taking supplements and and following up with my doctor. I'm sure alot would like to say "the veganism did it!" but my brother, who eats red meat daily, as well as chicken, fish, eggs and milk galore, and thinks the adkins approach is the best, was ALSO diagnosed with vitamin D deficiency a few years ago.
A lot of this is associated with lack of sun. With so many people concerned about skin cancer from sun exposure, we're not getting sufficient sun which is necessary as well. It's not uncommon to have this in the PNW due to the lack of sun. health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/heart/articles/2008/06/23/time-in-the-sun-how-much-is-needed-for-vitamin-d lots of women are deficient in vitamin D. I take a daily 1000mg supplement, as well as make sure I eat lots of leafy greens and mushrooms. all are great for boosting that number. you might want to consider those additions to your diet as well, if you haven't already. sent from my electronic distraction
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 2, 2015 17:52:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 7:45:49 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of her in general, but she is fit. Even the larger hips and thighs are fit. She isn't supermodel thin or fitness guru ripped, but I think for the average person she is probably the best model to look at. Someone who's job isn't to stay in shape and has got of other demands as well. My mom and grandma rip her look too when she promotes fitness and health, but frankly it is more they don't like her. ETA the images are a Google search for Michelle Obama fahion. Not exactly picking and choosing the best images. I don't like or dislike her. I despise her husband but don't much care about Michelle or the girls. My thoughts have nothing to do with politics. Before I would go out spouting off about a healthy lifestyle I would make sure I looked fit. Some of the pictures I've seen of get make her bottom half look really big (what I would consider chunky). I'm not sure why we wre all arguing over Michelle Obama. It is all opinion so my opinion doesn't matter to any of you note does your opinion that Im crazy matter to me. You can be really fit and still have a big butt. I don't think the two are necessarily connected. My brother's girlfriend is just like him in being addicted to the gym, weight lifting and health food, they're always in those extreme obstacle course competitions, but she has a LARGE butt and always will. It's just how she's built. I'm busty and no amount of exercise is going to do anything about that either. It's either live with it or go under the knife.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Sept 4, 2015 10:12:29 GMT -5
So - I site several recent articles directly from a pubmed search, and no one cares to discuss? we should continue to put our faith in anecdotes and sophisticated review articles like "why vegan diets suck"? I didn't disagree with you, but give Virgil a while, I'm sure he'll get here.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Sept 4, 2015 11:15:00 GMT -5
I don't like or dislike her. I despise her husband but don't much care about Michelle or the girls. My thoughts have nothing to do with politics. Before I would go out spouting off about a healthy lifestyle I would make sure I looked fit. Some of the pictures I've seen of get make her bottom half look really big (what I would consider chunky). I'm not sure why we wre all arguing over Michelle Obama. It is all opinion so my opinion doesn't matter to any of you note does your opinion that Im crazy matter to me. You can be really fit and still have a big butt. I don't think the two are necessarily connected. My brother's girlfriend is just like him in being addicted to the gym, weight lifting and health food, they're always in those extreme obstacle course competitions, but she has a LARGE butt and always will. It's just how she's built. I'm busty and no amount of exercise is going to do anything about that either. It's either live with it or go under the knife. The butt is a muscle so it can be made bigger or smaller with weight training or lack thereof. And yeah, some people are more "blessed" than others. If there is a workout to get you a bigger cup size, I'd love to find out what it is.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 4, 2015 11:48:36 GMT -5
articles that popped up on pubmed search The PopSci meta-analysis (which is actually a reprint of an article at authoritynutrition.com with a different name) references some of these (I could confirm two just by skimming). It's at least worth reading. For example (ibid.): Now, there are some studies showing health benefits and lower mortality in vegetarians and vegans, such as the Seventh-Day Adventist Studies (21, 22).
The problem with these studies is that they are so-called observational studies. These types of studies can only demonstrate correlation, not causation.
The vegetarians are probably healthier because they are more health conscious overall, eat more vegetables, are less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise, etc. It has nothing to do with avoiding animal foods.
In another study of 10,000 individuals, where both the vegetarians and non-vegetarians were health conscious, there was no difference in mortality between groups (23).
One controlled trial showed that a vegan diet was more effective against diabetes than the official diet recommended by the American Diabetes Association (24).
However, a low-carb diet has also been studied for this purpose and led to much more powerful beneficial effects (25). Also (ibid.): Unprocessed red meat, which has been demonized in the past, really doesn't have any association with cardiovascular disease, diabetes or the risk of death (27, 28).
It has only a very weak link with an increased risk of cancer and this is probably caused by excessive cooking, not the meat itself (29, 30, 31).
Saturated fat has also never been proven to lead to heart disease. A study of almost 350 thousand individuals found literally no association between saturated fat consumption and cardiovascular disease (32, 33, 34).
Studies on eggs show no effect either. Multiple long-term studies have been conducted on egg consumption, which are very rich in cholesterol, and found no negative effects (35, 36). Yes, the article is editorialized for the public, but Ms. Gunnars does seem to have dotted her i's and crossed her t's. She also brings forward this compelling bit of evidence: Despite what vegan proponents often claim, there are no controlled trials showing that these diets are any better than other diets.
They often claim that low-carb, high-fat diets (the opposite of vegan diets) are dangerous and that the evidence clearly shows vegan diets to be superior.
I disagree.
This has actually been studied in a high quality randomized controlled trial (the gold standard of science).
The A to Z study compared the Atkins (low-carb, high-fat) diet to the Ornish (low-fat, near-vegan) diet (20).
This study clearly shows that the Atkins diet causes greater improvements in pretty much all health markers, although not all of them were statistically significant: ...
Put simply, the Atkins diet had several important advantages while the Ornish diet performed poorly for all health markers measured None of the articles you cite are controlled trials, which I agree with her is an absolute must for determining causation. She claims that none exist showing vegan diets to be superior. Can you prove her wrong?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 4, 2015 12:47:54 GMT -5
What is a near vegan? I know there is some flexibility with vegatarianism but I thought vegan was pretty straight forward. Either you're vegan or not.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 4, 2015 12:48:28 GMT -5
Is that the PC term for vegetarian?
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