what's wrong with lettng the illegals stay?

[dondub]

Trickle down raises all boats. Right?

[Deleted]

Ronald Reagan, meanwhile, championed a version of open borders: "Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don't we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they're working and earning here, they'd pay taxes here. And when they want to go back, they can go back. They can cross. Open the borders both ways."

[zibazinski]

Aug 20, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 20, 2015 16:59:53 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

And how is that working out for California?
I know dj says it is great,but 2 million illegals cannot be a good thing.

please stop putting words in my mouth.  i never said it was working "great".

let me be clear about this AGAIN: i am opposed to illegal immigration.  however, i am really tired of people doing the following two things:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem.  it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot.  your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work.  they are not rapists, for the most part.  they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it.  and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.

so, please- stop telling me what i think.  i just said what i think.  use that.

it is NOT GREAT.  it is ILLEGAL.  but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building walls.

.


That's a beginning. No welfare of any kind.

[zibazinski]

Aug 20, 2015 18:41:59 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Ronald Reagan, meanwhile, championed a version of open borders: "Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don't we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they're working and earning here, they'd pay taxes here. And when they want to go back, they can go back. They can cross. Open the borders both ways."

Absolutely. Let's let more trash in to further drag the country down. How many from America want to live in these great countries?

[zibazinski]

Let's not forget. They don't assimilated they bring their language, their "culture", their religion and other bullshit problems with them. They bring into this country the same crap they're escaping from. Turning nice areas into ghettos. Press two for English my ass.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 19:59:41 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Aug 20, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

please stop putting words in my mouth.  i never said it was working "great".

let me be clear about this AGAIN: i am opposed to illegal immigration.  however, i am really tired of people doing the following two things:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem.  it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot.  your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work.  they are not rapists, for the most part.  they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it.  and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.

so, please- stop telling me what i think.  i just said what i think.  use that.

it is NOT GREAT.  it is ILLEGAL.  but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building walls.

.

That's a beginning. No welfare of any kind.

that won't solve the problem.  at all.  but your other proposal might. 

[The Captain]

Aug 19, 2015 18:59:38 GMT -5 mroped said:

When traveling to other countries unless is France, the locals bend over backwards to accommodate you and they respect you. But that might be because all they see is dollar signs!

Have to say when DH and I went to France (with one exception ) everyone was absolutely lovely! 

Of course that may be because we greeted everyone with "Good day" in French and left with "Good bye" as is the custom and expected (or else you are rude!).  Dh spoke some French and at the time I could get out "Pardon me, but I know very little French, do you speak any English" in passable French.

Kinda makes your point, eh?

[billisonboard]

I think about the segment of the population that is illegally entering our country from south of the border and the difficulty of the English language. 

[wyouser]

I think the real issue going forward is: wide open borders and an entitlement state. No one has explained to me how that combination works when you play it forward into the future. 

[Phoenix84]

Aug 21, 2015 10:55:42 GMT -5 wyouser said:

I think the real issue going forward is: wide open borders and an entitlement state. No one has explained to me how that combination works when you play it forward into the future. 

It doesn't, but liberals have this strange belief that reality will conform to their ideology, and the answer to problems is more taxes on the rich and more government.

[Phoenix84]

Aug 20, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 20, 2015 16:59:53 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

And how is that working out for California?
I know dj says it is great,but 2 million illegals cannot be a good thing.

please stop putting words in my mouth.  i never said it was working "great".

let me be clear about this AGAIN: i am opposed to illegal immigration.  however, i am really tired of people doing the following two things:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem.  it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot.  your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work.  they are not rapists, for the most part.  they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it.  and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.

so, please- stop telling me what i think.  i just said what i think.  use that.

it is NOT GREAT.  it is ILLEGAL.  but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building walls.

DJ, I actually agree with you. If I were in charge, I would go after the American companies who hire illegals first before anything else. Most illegals come here to work, i believe that, and if we ensure they can't do that, then they'll leave.

I do think we need to do a better job securing the boarder and be aggressive in deporting illegals, but I know it's not realistic to deport all of them. We need to instead create an environment where they "self deport."

[chiver78]

Aug 21, 2015 11:04:15 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Aug 21, 2015 10:55:42 GMT -5 wyouser said:

I think the real issue going forward is: wide open borders and an entitlement state. No one has explained to me how that combination works when you play it forward into the future. 

It doesn't, but liberals have this strange belief that reality will conform to their ideology, and the answer to problems is more taxes on the rich and more government.

as opposed to the religious right that seems to think the country should all follow their interpretation of the Bible? don't be so quick to use that broad paintbrush there.

sent from my electronic distraction

[djAdvocate]

Aug 21, 2015 11:11:45 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Aug 20, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

please stop putting words in my mouth.  i never said it was working "great".

let me be clear about this AGAIN: i am opposed to illegal immigration.  however, i am really tired of people doing the following two things:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem.  it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot.  your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work.  they are not rapists, for the most part.  they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it.  and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.

so, please- stop telling me what i think.  i just said what i think.  use that.

it is NOT GREAT.  it is ILLEGAL.  but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building walls.

DJ, I actually agree with you. If I were in charge, I would go after the American companies who hire illegals first before anything else. Most illegals come here to work, i believe that, and if we ensure they can't do that, then they'll leave.

if there is no work, most of them will NEVER COME.  starving here is no better than starving in Nicaragua.

[The Captain]

Aug 20, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 20, 2015 16:59:53 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

And how is that working out for California?
I know dj says it is great,but 2 million illegals cannot be a good thing.

please stop putting words in my mouth.  i never said it was working "great".

let me be clear about this AGAIN: i am opposed to illegal immigration.  however, i am really tired of people doing the following two things:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem.  it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot.  your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work.  they are not rapists, for the most part.  they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it.  and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.

so, please- stop telling me what i think.  i just said what i think.  use that.

it is NOT GREAT.  it is ILLEGAL.  but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building walls.

About a year ago you and I were engaged in a similar discussion where you refused to believe illegal immigration could have a direct negative impact on someone. I gave the very personal example of how my school district went to hell in a handbasket and DH and I had to first put DD in a private school, then eventually move.

You not only refused to acknowledge the fact that this could happen, you likened sending your own child to a "public" school as an example of how you think these negative consequences could not happen.

Here - let me remind you - see posts #51 and 53:

ymam.proboards.com/thread/40867/illegals?page=2

Since I've moved long enough ago my old house isn't searchable in real estate listings here are the schools DD would have had to attend if we didn't put her in private school:

www.illinoisreportcard.com/School.aspx?schoolid=310450460222044
www.illinoisreportcard.com/School.aspx?schoolid=310450460221005
www.illinoisreportcard.com/School.aspx?schoolid=310450460220002  BTW - the graduation rate?  utter crap. A student is only counted as a dropout if they admit as such. Many dropouts are simply listed as transitional students.

When DH and I moved here we deliberately choose an area that was racially integrated - almost 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.  As the demographics changed, so did the schools and the area. 

So that public school that is 60-80% hispanic?  I think you also described it in post # 33 here:

ymam.proboards.com/thread/45351/massive-surge-home-schooling-years?page=2 as "it is a college prep charter school and only the best students make it into it."

Not everyone has that option you know.  DH and I were looking at over $13K a year in HS tuition at a mediocre school at best. We moved. Tell you what - I'll PM you the link to the info on DD's new school if you PM me the link to the college prep charter school that is 60-80% hispanic with majority below poverty level and significant ELL population link.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 21, 2015 13:06:09 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Aug 20, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

please stop putting words in my mouth.  i never said it was working "great".

let me be clear about this AGAIN: i am opposed to illegal immigration.  however, i am really tired of people doing the following two things:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem.  it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot.  your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work.  they are not rapists, for the most part.  they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it.  and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.

so, please- stop telling me what i think.  i just said what i think.  use that.

it is NOT GREAT.  it is ILLEGAL.  but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building walls.

About a year ago you and I were engaged in a similar discussion where you refused to believe illegal immigration could have a direct negative impact on someone.

no.  first of all, we were not talking about "illegal immigration" in general.  i am sure that MANY people have an adverse impact associated with it, including illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, and businesses that do NOT use illegal labor.  second, i was asking, with some incredulity, what the negative impacts to public schooling were, since my son is in a wildly hispanic PUBLIC school, and i think it is vastly better than the wildly WHITE public school he was in 4 years ago.

So that public school that is 60-80% hispanic? 

no.  i misspoke.  it is actually more like 80-95%.  i am not sure where the number falls.  but i know that my son is one of two white kids in his school.  i think there is also one black kid.

I think you also described it in post # 33 here:

ymam.proboards.com/thread/45351/massive-surge-home-schooling-years?page=2 as "it is a college prep charter school and only the best students make it into it."

Not everyone has that option you know.  DH and I were looking at over $13K a year in HS tuition at a mediocre school at best. We moved. Tell you what - I'll PM you the link to the info on DD's new school if you PM me the link to the college prep charter school that is 60-80% hispanic with majority below poverty level and significant ELL population link.

what option?  a public charter?  they are super duper common.  so i am SURE it is true that "not everyone" has that option, but many many do.

i can send you the link, but their website sucks.  just warning you.

[mroped]

Aug 21, 2015 14:59:16 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Aug 21, 2015 9:21:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Have to say when DH and I went to France (with one exception ) everyone was absolutely lovely! 

Of course that may be because we greeted everyone with "Good day" in French and left with "Good bye" as is the custom and expected (or else you are rude!).  Dh spoke some French and at the time I could get out "Pardon me, but I know very little French, do you speak any English" in passable French.

Kinda makes your point, eh?

I found when I was in Montreal that trying to speak French went a long way toward breaking the ice with people.  My French was not great either, but I think people like that you make the effort.

Plus it probably gives them something to laugh about later.

Personally I had very little interaction with the people at the hotel where we stayed.
Just your typical "good morning", thank you! and such for which I used French since I'm fairly fluid in it. Also when I went to stores or restaurants I did use French when ordering for myself or asking for something. The rest of my family however doesn't speak a lick of French.
When checking out, my wife went to take care of the tab and of course she spoke English which the attendants also did. There was something about the bill that didn't fit in and she brought it to their attention at which point they switched to French and starting saying not so nice words about my wife things like: " these Americans they think they know better. They come in here all arrogant and full of themselves and want to have it their way!"
You can imagine that that didn't bode well with me so I stepped in and explained them in clear French that she was just wondering what the charges are for and would be nice to just explain to her what's going on. After all that's what they get paid for!
Also I reminded them that the American troops saved the french's asses twice at least and if they continue being rude, next time they may not come. So they should be thankful for being able to speak French still and not German!
Also, at the airport, they were the only ones that made noise and confiscated my son's climbing carabiners on the pretext they could be used as a weapon. That after going thru at least five check- ups before in three different countries.

So you could see why I don't care for them!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 20, 2015 20:06:03 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Let's not forget. They don't assimilated they bring their language, their "culture", their religion and other bullshit problems with them. They bring into this country the same crap they're escaping from. Turning nice areas into ghettos. Press two for English my ass.

Exactly. There is a problem with what can only be accurately described as an invasion and/or colonization. The costs, far from being exaggerated, are consistently downplayed. If Americans new the true cost- if things like "uninsured motorists coverage" were called an "illegal alien tax", if the true costs to government schools, hospitals, law enforcement, prisons, let alone welfare were ever itemized- especially in the light of the systematic voter fraud they help facilitat- there'd be a revolt.

[chiver78]

Aug 21, 2015 15:49:28 GMT -5 mroped said:

Aug 21, 2015 14:59:16 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

I found when I was in Montreal that trying to speak French went a long way toward breaking the ice with people.  My French was not great either, but I think people like that you make the effort.

Plus it probably gives them something to laugh about later.

Personally I had very little interaction with the people at the hotel where we stayed.
Just your typical "good morning", thank you! and such for which I used French since I'm fairly fluid in it. Also when I went to stores or restaurants I did use French when ordering for myself or asking for something. The rest of my family however doesn't speak a lick of French.
When checking out, my wife went to take care of the tab and of course she spoke English which the attendants also did. There was something about the bill that didn't fit in and she brought it to their attention at which point they switched to French and starting saying not so nice words about my wife things like: " these Americans they think they know better. They come in here all arrogant and full of themselves and want to have it their way!"
You can imagine that that didn't bode well with me so I stepped in and explained them in clear French that she was just wondering what the charges are for and would be nice to just explain to her what's going on. After all that's what they get paid for!
Also I reminded them that the American troops saved the french's asses twice at least and if they continue being rude, next time they may not come. So they should be thankful for being able to speak French still and not German!
Also, at the airport, they were the only ones that made noise and confiscated my son's climbing carabiners on the pretext they could be used as a weapon. That after going thru at least five check- ups before in three different countries.

So you could see why I don't care for them!

sounds like an evening I had with some Canadiens fans in Boston. they spent the first 2 periods of the game talking shit about the Bruins fans (in OUR house, mind you) in French, the nicest thing I can repeat here is that us Americans wouldn't know a hockey puck if it hit us in our hoohas. so yah....by 2nd intermission, I'm steaming. there are kids around us wearing both colors, so I know the colorful shit was understood by some of them. as the 3rd period was starting, I finally had enough. I leaned over and in my Acadian-accented French dressed them up one side and down the other. those two fat old fucks paled white as the ice sheet and didn't speak another word the rest of the game. go f*ck yourselves.

[sesfw]

About a year ago you and I were engaged in a similar discussion where you refused to believe illegal immigration could have a direct negative impact on someone. I gave the very personal example of how my school district went to hell in a handbasket and DH and I had to first put DD in a private school, then eventually move.

You not only refused to acknowledge the fact that this could happen, you likened sending your own child to a "public" school as an example of how you think these negative consequences could not happen.

Here - let me remind you - see posts #51 and 53:    .......... etc



Captian .......... thank you for saying what I have wished I could say on many occasions.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 21, 2015 19:17:50 GMT -5 sesfw said:

About a year ago you and I were engaged in a similar discussion where you refused to believe illegal immigration could have a direct negative impact on someone. I gave the very personal example of how my school district went to hell in a handbasket and DH and I had to first put DD in a private school, then eventually move.

You not only refused to acknowledge the fact that this could happen, you likened sending your own child to a "public" school as an example of how you think these negative consequences could not happen.

Here - let me remind you - see posts #51 and 53:    .......... etc



Captian .......... thank you for saying what I have wished I could say on many occasions.

what did you wish to say on many occasions?

[weltschmerz]

Aug 21, 2015 15:49:28 GMT -5 mroped said:

Aug 21, 2015 14:59:16 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

I found when I was in Montreal that trying to speak French went a long way toward breaking the ice with people.  My French was not great either, but I think people like that you make the effort.

Plus it probably gives them something to laugh about later.

Personally I had very little interaction with the people at the hotel where we stayed.
Just your typical "good morning", thank you! and such for which I used French since I'm fairly fluid in it. Also when I went to stores or restaurants I did use French when ordering for myself or asking for something. The rest of my family however doesn't speak a lick of French.
When checking out, my wife went to take care of the tab and of course she spoke English which the attendants also did. There was something about the bill that didn't fit in and she brought it to their attention at which point they switched to French and starting saying not so nice words about my wife things like: " these Americans they think they know better. They come in here all arrogant and full of themselves and want to have it their way!"
You can imagine that that didn't bode well with me so I stepped in and explained them in clear French that she was just wondering what the charges are for and would be nice to just explain to her what's going on. After all that's what they get paid for!
Also I reminded them that the American troops saved the french's asses twice at least and if they continue being rude, next time they may not come. So they should be thankful for being able to speak French still and not German!
Also, at the airport, they were the only ones that made noise and confiscated my son's climbing carabiners on the pretext they could be used as a weapon. That after going thru at least five check- ups before in three different countries.

So you could see why I don't care for them!

You went there? Maybe that's why the French think Americans are arrogant.

[mroped]

When you bite the hand that feeds you somebody needs to put you in your place!

I had no intention of it, up to that point all was peachy for me, for us, all the litle snide remarks that they were making I chucked them to ignorance or stupidity. 
But when they started making rude remarks and inappropriate comments at the address of my family and generally to Americans you damn right I went there!
Also I mentioned to them that I am not an American born and raised, I just became one and I'm proud of it!

[bean29]

Aug 20, 2015 9:53:57 GMT -5 sesfw said:

I will commend you for pursuing citizenship since that point, though. and it definitely appears that you have become a productive member of society. I just wish you'd done it the right way from the start.


  AMEN to this

If you had done it the right way in the beginning you would have been an excellent example to others.  But ................

Lol, If he had done it the right way he would probably still be in Eastern Europe and he chances of getting here would be practically nill.

[bean29]

Aug 21, 2015 17:47:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 20, 2015 20:06:03 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Let's not forget. They don't assimilated they bring their language, their "culture", their religion and other bullshit problems with them. They bring into this country the same crap they're escaping from. Turning nice areas into ghettos. Press two for English my ass.

Exactly. There is a problem with what can only be accurately described as an invasion and/or colonization. The costs, far from being exaggerated, are consistently downplayed. If Americans new the true cost- if things like "uninsured motorists coverage" were called an "illegal alien tax", if the true costs to government schools, hospitals, law enforcement, prisons, let alone welfare were ever itemized- especially in the light of the systematic voter fraud they help facilitat- there'd be a revolt.

Please elaborate-what are you talking about when you refer to systemic voter fraud? Please back up your claim with hard evidence. I submit if you can find any-the numbers are not high enough to effect the outcome.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 22, 2015 8:21:56 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Aug 21, 2015 17:47:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Exactly. There is a problem with what can only be accurately described as an invasion and/or colonization. The costs, far from being exaggerated, are consistently downplayed. If Americans new the true cost- if things like "uninsured motorists coverage" were called an "illegal alien tax", if the true costs to government schools, hospitals, law enforcement, prisons, let alone welfare were ever itemized- especially in the light of the systematic voter fraud they help facilitat- there'd be a revolt.

Please elaborate-what are you talking about when you refer to systemic voter fraud? Please back up your claim with hard evidence. I submit if you can find any-the numbers are not high enough to effect the outcome.

[mroped]

Aug 21, 2015 17:47:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 20, 2015 20:06:03 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Let's not forget. They don't assimilated they bring their language, their "culture", their religion and other bullshit problems with them. They bring into this country the same crap they're escaping from. Turning nice areas into ghettos. Press two for English my ass.

Exactly. There is a problem with what can only be accurately described as an invasion and/or colonization. The costs, far from being exaggerated, are consistently downplayed. If Americans new the true cost- if things like "uninsured motorists coverage" were called an "illegal alien tax", if the true costs to government schools, hospitals, law enforcement, prisons, let alone welfare were ever itemized- especially in the light of the systematic voter fraud they help facilitat- there'd be a revolt.

All that you speak of, if tabulated it would still come under what we would have to pay for the full package of F35s that nobody wants and would be used for destruction.

Even if we have to pay as much as you claim or think would cost, at least would be for a better life for a great number of people.

Personaly could I have done things differently? Sure!
Did I stand any chance of getting anywhere? Not much!
I did what I thought I have to and I'd do it again if that gives me a chance to a better life. 
I mean no offense to any of you here on this board but half of you wouldn't even make it throug what I had to.
Part of it I brought it on myself out of frustration but most of it was absolutely unwarranted so I got to appoint where being in an American jail sounded more attractive than going back. And all I knew about American jails was from movies where yard fights happen and shiving is the order of the day but at least it looked like you could fight back and you will not be tied to a chair while the other guy works you up.

[OldCoyote]

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem. it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot. your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work. they are not rapists, for the most part. they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it. and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.


but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building wall

DJ really understands this,  I completely agree,  ( I hope you did not break something when you fell out of your chair, DJ)

Let me make a point or two here.  When you have production that need done (that means the survival of your business) the only people that show up at your doorstep are illegal, you don't turn them away.

 

[Tennesseer]

As much as some folks want it, the U.S. is not going to eject millions of illegal immigrants from our country. It would be an international crisis on a scale not seen on the world stage since WWII. The chaos it would create in the countries where the majority of these illegal immigrants came from would be unfathomable.

I know some folks will say "Who cares-not our problem." But it will be our problem because the chaos will be in our own neighborhood.

A fix will be developed and the vast majority will be given legal status to remain and work in the U.S. What we need now is a way to stop any more illegal immigrants from entering the country or overstaing their visas.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 22, 2015 8:59:29 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem. it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot. your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work. they are not rapists, for the most part. they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it. and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.


but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building wall

DJ really understands this,  I completely agree,  ( I hope you did not break something when you fell out of your chair, DJ)

Let me make a point or two here.  When you have production that need done (that means the survival of your business) the only people that show up at your doorstep are illegal, you don't turn them away.

nah, i am not going to fall out of my chair.  i am pretty rational about things that are not personal to me- like this issue.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 22, 2015 8:21:56 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Aug 21, 2015 17:47:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Exactly. There is a problem with what can only be accurately described as an invasion and/or colonization. The costs, far from being exaggerated, are consistently downplayed. If Americans new the true cost- if things like "uninsured motorists coverage" were called an "illegal alien tax", if the true costs to government schools, hospitals, law enforcement, prisons, let alone welfare were ever itemized- especially in the light of the systematic voter fraud they help facilitat- there'd be a revolt.

Please elaborate-what are you talking about when you refer to systemic voter fraud? Please back up your claim with hard evidence. I submit if you can find any-the numbers are not high enough to effect the outcome.

Do your own homework. I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'll help you get started.