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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:57:38 GMT -5
Nothing. Because that answer doesn't apply to the question (note how the bolded still leaves that right intact for the woman that has the pregnancy?). ETA: your edit of doesn't apply either... for the same reason. I'm sorry, I misunderstood the science. I thought the gestation took place in the woman's body. You understand the science perfectly... you misunderstood the question. In the question I posed, the woman still has control over gestation and whether or not to terminate it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:57:54 GMT -5
Should I as a wife be able to make my husband get a vasectomy if I want him to have one?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:59:43 GMT -5
Should I as a wife be able to make my husband get a vasectomy if I want him to have one? No. But you should be able to make him wear a rubber. External vs internal choice. Internal choice should always be the choice of the person that "owns" the internals.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:00:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I misunderstood the science. I thought the gestation took place in the woman's body. You understand the science perfectly... you misunderstood the question. In the question I posed, the woman still has control over gestation and whether or not to terminate it. and the man still has control over what goes on in his body, neither has control over what goes on in the other without the other's consent. Women have control over whether or not to terminate gestation in their body. If gestation happened in men, then they would. If it happens in a vat, then whoever contracted that would.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:01:25 GMT -5
You understand the science perfectly... you misunderstood the question. In the question I posed, the woman still has control over gestation and whether or not to terminate it. and the man still has control over what goes on in his body, neither has control over what goes on in the other without the other's consent. Who said otherwise? I never did. I asked a very simple question: "Should he be allowed to opt out of being a parent if she can?"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:01:56 GMT -5
I inherently want to say, yes, a father can opt out of being a parent before birth and have no ties or responsibilities.
Unfortunately, what does that mean logistically for society when more single mothers get public assistance. Should they be able to put that responsibility on the public? And what would stop some segment from saying they are out of the picture just to facilitate getting assistance...?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:02:51 GMT -5
and the man still has control over what goes on in his body, neither has control over what goes on in the other without the other's consent. Who said otherwise? I never did. then why are you calling one egalitarian and the other feminist?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:04:48 GMT -5
I inherently want to say, yes, a father can opt out of being a parent before birth and have no ties or responsibilities. Unfortunately, what does that mean logistically for society when more single mothers get public assistance. Should they be able to put that responsibility on the public? And what would stop some segment from saying they are out of the picture just to facilitate getting assistance...? The question isn't about "Real world issues that may occur afterwards"... it's an "in a perfect world, where this choice would have no repercussions on anyone other than the mother or father" kind of question.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:05:33 GMT -5
Who said otherwise? I never did. then why are you calling one egalitarian and the other feminist? Because one answer is egalitarian and the other answer is feminist. ETA: One answer wants equal rights for both male and female (egalitarian), the other answer only cares about the rights of females at the expense of the rights of males (feminist).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:06:40 GMT -5
In a perfect world with no other repercussions, yes. He should be able to walk away before birth and sign away rights and responsibilities.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:07:06 GMT -5
Feminism IS about equal rights. I'm not seeing the distinction you do...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:07:23 GMT -5
In a perfect world with no other repercussions, yes. He should be able to walk away before birth and sign away rights and responsibilities. That makes you an egalitarian.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:07:24 GMT -5
then why are you calling one egalitarian and the other feminist? Because one answer is egalitarian and the other answer is feminist. why is it feminist for a woman to want control over her own body and not have someone else control what goes on in it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:09:14 GMT -5
Feminism IS about equal rights. I'm not seeing the distinction you do... That's what they say. That's not what they practice. Feminism is only about equal rights when females have less rights. it's NEVER about male rights when they are lesser than female rights. Ergo... not equal... just female.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:12:43 GMT -5
Because one answer is egalitarian and the other answer is feminist. why is it feminist for a woman to want control over her own body and not have someone else control what goes on in it? Try to re-read the question until you get that it doesn't take away the rights of the female. Here's that part that covers that (again): The female would still retain all rights to what happens with her body. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Or are you intentionally misunderstanding it, so as to muddle the simple question?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 19:31:45 GMT -5
why is it feminist for a woman to want control over her own body and not have someone else control what goes on in it? Try to re-read the question until you get that it doesn't take away the rights of the female. Here's that part that covers that (again): The female would still retain all rights to what happens with her body. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Or are you intentionally misunderstanding it, so as to muddle the simple question? I guess I do not understand what you are saying at all. Are you saying that a man should be able to decide not to be a parent after the woman is pregnant? I am not sure how that would happen short of being able to force her to abort. If you are suggesting a man should be able to choose not to support a child that is his if he says so while the woman is pregant, I do not understand how that would be possible while still recognizing the child's rights. Unless you are suggesting a child does not have the right to support from his parents. If none of that is correct, I have no idea what you are saying. Sorry.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 29, 2015 21:09:30 GMT -5
Quick feminist/egalitarian test question: If a woman has the right to "opt out" of parenthood (via abortion OR giving up for adoption), should a father have that same right to opt out (tell the mother he opts out and if she continues and keeps the baby it's all on her.. leaving the actual choice of whether to abort or adopt out up to her, so not taking any rights away from her)? If you say "Yes, a father should have the same right" then you are for equality and an egalitarian. If you say "No, only a mother should have that right" then you are for female rights at the expense of male rights and are a feminist. (for the record, this is not "My" test question... I came across this question a few years ago on a blog somewhere. Admittedly, I am paraphrasing it, as I do not know the question and answers "word for bloody word" {to take a quote from the same favorite movie that the quote in my signature is from}) Unfortunately, I don't think it is a fair question since the two sides are not equal to begin with. If the woman chooses to opt out, then both are relieved from financial obligation. If only the man opts out, the woman is "sentenced" to full support of the resulting child. The corresponding question would be relevant if the man wanted the child but the woman did not, and was willing to take full financial responsibility for it. Even that, though, would require a significant contribution (i.e. "carrying the fetus to term") from the woman, given that a transplant into the man only works in the movies.
That is a somewhat roundabout way of saying that an answer does not really signify what you want it to....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 21:41:38 GMT -5
Try to re-read the question until you get that it doesn't take away the rights of the female. Here's that part that covers that (again): The female would still retain all rights to what happens with her body. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Or are you intentionally misunderstanding it, so as to muddle the simple question? I guess I do not understand what you are saying at all. Are you saying that a man should be able to decide not to be a parent after the woman is pregnant? I am not sure how that would happen short of being able to force her to abort. If you are suggesting a man should be able to choose not to support a child that is his if he says so while the woman is pregant, I do not understand how that would be possible while still recognizing the child's rights. Unless you are suggesting a child does not have the right to support from his parents. If none of that is correct, I have no idea what you are saying. Sorry. If she can make that decision, then he should be able to make the same decision. Yes. That's what the question is about. And yes, It can happen without forcing her to do anything. She can still choose, of her own free will to abort, carry and adopt out, or carry and keep. That's the last time I'm going to clarify something that's so simple. So... should rights to opt out be equal... or just for the woman?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 21:46:45 GMT -5
As tall guy notes however, the decisions are not inherently equal; the situations do not carry the same weight and circumstances.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 29, 2015 21:52:19 GMT -5
Who's taking the risks? Are those risks to be factored into the equality equation?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 5:07:43 GMT -5
I guess I do not understand what you are saying at all. Are you saying that a man should be able to decide not to be a parent after the woman is pregnant? I am not sure how that would happen short of being able to force her to abort. If you are suggesting a man should be able to choose not to support a child that is his if he says so while the woman is pregant, I do not understand how that would be possible while still recognizing the child's rights. Unless you are suggesting a child does not have the right to support from his parents. If none of that is correct, I have no idea what you are saying. Sorry. If she can make that decision, then he should be able to make the same decision. Yes. That's what the question is about. And yes, It can happen without forcing her to do anything. She can still choose, of her own free will to abort, carry and adopt out, or carry and keep. That's the last time I'm going to clarify something that's so simple. So... should rights to opt out be equal... or just for the woman? I think Tall guy explained the problem I am having. I do not understand what you are trying to say at all. I do not think a man should be able to force a woman to abort or not abort or be able to quit his obligations to his child.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2015 9:18:05 GMT -5
If she can make that decision, then he should be able to make the same decision. Yes. That's what the question is about. And yes, It can happen without forcing her to do anything. She can still choose, of her own free will to abort, carry and adopt out, or carry and keep. That's the last time I'm going to clarify something that's so simple. So... should rights to opt out be equal... or just for the woman? I think Tall guy explained the problem I am having. I do not understand what you are trying to say at all. I do not think a man should be able to force a woman to abort or not abort or be able to quit his obligations to his child. But there have been cases where a man was told by his GF that she either couldn't have kids or that she was on BC when in fact, she was fertile. Then she gets pregnant (some women have the warped idea that getting pregnant forces the man to 'do the right thing' and marry them) and the man suddenly is facing 18 years of child support payments and he has no rights - he can't chose to abort and he can't chose for his child to be placed for adoption, even if he is certain he and his GF are not emotionally and financially ready to be parents. I think the child's rights should come first, which means that the father has to pay the child support (because he could have always just kept it in his pants). I don't think it's really 'fair' for the dad, but I don't think it's fair for society or his GF to be 100% responsible for supporting his child, either. Sometimes there is no answer that is 'fair' - just 'least unfair.'
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 9:20:59 GMT -5
A man can get a vasectomy or abstain or not trust a girl and double wrap that thing all the time. He does also have choices there.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2015 10:56:07 GMT -5
A man can get a vasectomy or abstain or not trust a girl and double wrap that thing all the time. He does also have choices there. True. Historically males tend to rely on females for contraception, but they should not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 19:05:35 GMT -5
If she can make that decision, then he should be able to make the same decision. Yes. That's what the question is about. And yes, It can happen without forcing her to do anything. She can still choose, of her own free will to abort, carry and adopt out, or carry and keep. That's the last time I'm going to clarify something that's so simple. So... should rights to opt out be equal... or just for the woman? I think Tall guy explained the problem I am having. I do not understand what you are trying to say at all. I do not think a man should be able to force a woman to abort or not abort or be able to quit his obligations to his child. No one suggested that he should be able to force her to abort (PLEASE re-read the entire question until that sinks in). If she can quit her obligations... why shouldn't he be able to?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 19:08:55 GMT -5
I think Tall guy explained the problem I am having. I do not understand what you are trying to say at all. I do not think a man should be able to force a woman to abort or not abort or be able to quit his obligations to his child. No one suggested that he should be able to force her to abort (PLEASE re-read the entire question until that sinks in). If she can quit her obligations... why shouldn't he be able to? She does not quit her obligations to a child.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 19:15:47 GMT -5
A man can get a vasectomy or abstain or not trust a girl and double wrap that thing all the time. He does also have choices there. A woman can get her tubes tied or abstain or not trust a guy and double up on BC too... But once the pregnancy has occurred she all of a sudden has rights that the man has NO access to. Some of them are understandably reserved to her, and I am NOT arguing against them... however... to equalize them as much as possible... the man should have the right to say "You can choose to abort, adopt out, or keep the baby if you want to... COMPLETELY your choice. I choose to not be one of the child's parents and choose to not financially support it. If you choose to abort it, I'll pay half the fees. If you choose to keep it to term , either to and adopt it out OR to keep and raise it, you are choosing to be the sole provider for it."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 19:16:21 GMT -5
No one suggested that he should be able to force her to abort (PLEASE re-read the entire question until that sinks in). If she can quit her obligations... why shouldn't he be able to? She does not quit her obligations to a child. If she aborts it or adopts it out she absolutely does.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 19:17:22 GMT -5
If she aborts she opts them both out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 19:19:01 GMT -5
She does not quit her obligations to a child. If she aborts it or adopts it out she absolutely does. If you think it is a child as a 3 months embryo. I think you realize your comparison lacks something.
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