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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 20:05:50 GMT -5
If she aborts she opts them both out. True.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 30, 2015 20:22:10 GMT -5
One group doesn't have to fight for another one, but if that is the case, then the argument shouldn't be that they are fighting for equal treatment. However, you can't say "fight for yourself" and then in the same breath argue that anybody who says the wage-gap isn't really the same issue is just trying to hold women back and are just chauvinist who want women barefoot in the kitchen. Let's be fair shall we, just because you can cherry pick some data that says, in this specific set of circumstances women might actually earn as much as men, does not inherently denote a reversal of the wage gap. And while not everyone wants women barefoot and pregnant, constant vigilance is necessary to protect the gains women have made. Do I personally attempt to counter issues where I see us going too far and equality for all suffering? Yes. But honestly it isn't my or any woman's job to 'correct' every cherry picked data set which suggests white men are not supreme beings any more. If you are worried about this, instead of asking women to back down, why not investigate causal issues and also try to raise men up as well. So when I show data suggesting that maybe it's not discrimination that causes the wage-gap, I'm cherry picking; but when others do it show that there must be discrimination, it's perfectly acceptable? Let me ask you this question, do you think that the wage-gender gap due to discrimination is real or do you think other data (such as the ones I've shared) suggest that maybe it isn't due to discrimination but other reasons?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 31, 2015 7:44:33 GMT -5
Add some humor to the conversation...
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Aug 4, 2015 9:15:43 GMT -5
So what is everybody's definition of feminism?
Is the to try and promote economic and social equality among men and women? Is it to focus on promoting the causes of women only, without any real regard to men's issues? Or is it something else?
It seems for many posters here, it's more the latter....the "I don't care about the gap between men and women growing more and more in colleges as long as it is women who are the ones growing" or "I don't care if men are making less at the start of their careers, I'm only worried about women and men should worry about men; unless it hurts women, then they are just sexist."
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Aug 4, 2015 9:42:57 GMT -5
I actually see a culture where boys seem to be forgotten about...and I see that being an issue 20 years down the road. There are a lot of good programs to help empower young girls, but somewhere along the way, people seem to have forgotten about the boys too. Whenever there was a gap between boys and girls, there seemed to be a focus on closing that gap, but when it goes the other way...all of a sudden that focus doesn't seem to matter to enough people. We shouldn't stop the programs to help young girls, but we don't have to forget about the boys while we are doing it either. It's not about empowering one group, while purposefully excluding another group...which is exactly what we are doing. It's not the 1950's, or even 1980's anymore...it's time that people stop arguing like the male/female role argument is the same dominant belief that it was at that time. As far as some of the comments saying I shouldn't have to fight for men...they should do it themselves; I can imagine the responses on this board if somebody said the same thing in reverse. 1. Totally anecdotal, but at both high school graduations I went to in the past two years the big awards, with the bursaries, for maths and sciences went to boys. It was based on their marks so I'm not saying giving out the awards was sexist. I'm saying that where I am boys seem to be doing fine with STEM programs.
2. Having programs for girls did not stop programs for boys in any way.
It doesn't stop programs for boys unless you take into account limited monetary resources...thus, when you have program specifically for girls, it does limit programs for boys to attend. Also, to pretend that there wouldn't be a huge outcry if programs were made specifically or only for boys in these areas is naïve at best.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 10:00:04 GMT -5
PI if you see a problem for boys work on it. Don't point your finger at me and tell me to drop everything and deal with it. Ain't gonna happen.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Aug 4, 2015 10:07:08 GMT -5
PI if you see a problem for boys work on it. Don't point your finger at me and tell me to drop everything and deal with it. Ain't gonna happen. With all due respect, isn't that kind of what feminism has turned into? Isn't it basically to the point of pointing fingers and telling society they need to drop everything and deal with it?
When women aren't doing as well as men in areas, there is a complaint...when men aren't doing as well as women, all of a sudden there doesn't seem to be an issue. Why is that if it's really all about equality?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 10:12:31 GMT -5
PI if you see a problem for boys work on it. Don't point your finger at me and tell me to drop everything and deal with it. Ain't gonna happen. With all due respect, isn't that kind of what feminism has turned into? Isn't it basically to the point of pointing fingers and telling society they need to drop everything and deal with it? That is said with no respect. That is not what feminism does. It researches an issue, presents the info and lobbies for specific solutions. If you think boys and men need the same kind of support get to work.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Aug 4, 2015 10:21:43 GMT -5
With all due respect, isn't that kind of what feminism has turned into? Isn't it basically to the point of pointing fingers and telling society they need to drop everything and deal with it? That is said with no respect. That is not what feminism does. It researches an issue, presents the info and lobbies for specific solutions. If you think boys and men need the same kind of support get to work. With no respect? Why?
As far as research, you mean like the research that talks about how women have up to a 40% difference in pay 10 years after and MBA, but completely ignores the data that got the result, which states how that seems to be attributed to working shorter hours and has some relationship to having kids and how much the husband makes? You mean like the research that talked about how it was sexist to charge more for health insurance, but having no issue when men pay more for other insurances?
You see the difference between you and me is that I actually care if somebody is being treated unfairly, you only seem to care if women are being treated unfairly. I don't have an issue with feminism in general when it's about working toward equality, but I'm not sure that's what it's still about anymore. You arguing that "it's not my problem" and arguing the equivalent of "you worry about your kind and I'll worry about my kind" is a big part of the reason that we have as many issues as we do today. So I'm fine with you having no respect for me...especially if that's the reason you feel that way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 11:37:50 GMT -5
Are you bored today PI? What are you doing about this inequality towards men? Or women? I'm open to hearing about any action you are taking that does not involve accusing me of things.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 4, 2015 15:17:01 GMT -5
why is it feminist for a woman to want control over her own body and not have someone else control what goes on in it? Try to re-read the question until you get that it doesn't take away the rights of the female. Here's that part that covers that (again): The female would still retain all rights to what happens with her body. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Or are you intentionally misunderstanding it, so as to muddle the simple question? It's not a simple question, because it's flawed. Both a man and a woman can choose to "opt out" of parenthood in myriad ways after a baby is born. Courts may intervene in a financial sense, but if you don't want to act like a parent, they can't compel you. Having an abortion is opting out of being pregnant, and biology opted men out of that. A woman could choose to "opt out" of being a parent after a baby is born as well, either through adoption or leaving the baby with the father. There are plenty of babies being raised by a single mother, a single father, a grandparent or other relative, and adoptive or foster parent. Opting out of parenthood exists for both genders and for quite a long time men were much more likely to opt out, and not face financial repurcussions for doing so.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 4, 2015 15:19:50 GMT -5
I think Tall guy explained the problem I am having. I do not understand what you are trying to say at all. I do not think a man should be able to force a woman to abort or not abort or be able to quit his obligations to his child. No one suggested that he should be able to force her to abort (PLEASE re-read the entire question until that sinks in). If she can quit her obligations... why shouldn't he be able to? Women who walk away from their kids and leave them with the father can and are held on the hook for child support as well. You are not making the argument that you think you are.
ETA: Remaining pregnant is not an obligation. You do have obligations to children that are brought into the world.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 4, 2015 15:24:00 GMT -5
then why are you calling one egalitarian and the other feminist? Because one answer is egalitarian and the other answer is feminist. ETA: One answer wants equal rights for both male and female (egalitarian), the other answer only cares about the rights of females at the expense of the rights of males (feminist).That's nonsense. Promoting women's rights is not at the expense of men. Why do you believe it's an either/or situation? Do you feel that every time a woman gets a right it hurts you in some way? Did giving the women the right to vote take away that right for me? if women's pay rises to be equal to men, it is not inherently bad for men. If those men are part of a two-income household, it is good for them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 19:52:17 GMT -5
PI if you see a problem for boys work on it. Don't point your finger at me and tell me to drop everything and deal with it. Ain't gonna happen. With all due respect, isn't that kind of what feminism has turned into? Isn't it basically to the point of pointing fingers and telling society they need to drop everything and deal with it?
When women aren't doing as well as men in areas, there is a complaint...when men aren't doing as well as women, all of a sudden there doesn't seem to be an issue. Why is that if it's really all about equality?
Because "feminism" has never been about equality. It's been about raising female standards. Always has been. (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting standards raised equal to men... just quit with the "we want equality" schtick... because when it comes to raising areas where men have lesser rights... feminists are stunningly unsupportive.) The giveaway is in the name of the movement... "FEMinism". If they care about equality... for EVERYONE (which is the only true "equality")... they are either humanists or egalitarians.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 19:54:53 GMT -5
Try to re-read the question until you get that it doesn't take away the rights of the female. Here's that part that covers that (again): The female would still retain all rights to what happens with her body. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Or are you intentionally misunderstanding it, so as to muddle the simple question? It's not a simple question, because it's flawed. Both a man and a woman can choose to "opt out" of parenthood in myriad ways after a baby is born. Courts may intervene in a financial sense, but if you don't want to act like a parent, they can't compel you. Having an abortion is opting out of being pregnant, and biology opted men out of that. A woman could choose to "opt out" of being a parent after a baby is born as well, either through adoption or leaving the baby with the father. There are plenty of babies being raised by a single mother, a single father, a grandparent or other relative, and adoptive or foster parent. Opting out of parenthood exists for both genders and for quite a long time men were much more likely to opt out, and not face financial repurcussions for doing so. There's no flaw in the question. And yes, it's a quite simple question. People that don't believe it a simple question are intentionally trying to make it a hard one so they don't have to choose the answer that would lead to equality.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 19:56:12 GMT -5
No one suggested that he should be able to force her to abort (PLEASE re-read the entire question until that sinks in). If she can quit her obligations... why shouldn't he be able to? Women who walk away from their kids and leave them with the father can and are held on the hook for child support as well. You are not making the argument that you think you are.
ETA: Remaining pregnant is not an obligation. You do have obligations to children that are brought into the world.
I am making the exact argument that I think I am. If women have the right to opt out... then men should have the right as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 19:56:18 GMT -5
Then what is the argument about? I'm perfectly fine with being a FEMinist. You are the one that is trying to force me to take on more than I feel like taking on.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 20:01:36 GMT -5
Because one answer is egalitarian and the other answer is feminist. ETA: One answer wants equal rights for both male and female (egalitarian), the other answer only cares about the rights of females at the expense of the rights of males (feminist). That's nonsense. Promoting women's rights is not at the expense of men. Why do you believe it's an either/or situation? Do you feel that every time a woman gets a right it hurts you in some way? Did giving the women the right to vote take away that right for me? if women's pay rises to be equal to men, it is not inherently bad for men. If those men are part of a two-income household, it is good for them. Bolded: In that situation it is. When you give one side a right and deny it to the other side... you are giving that right at the expense of the other side. Unbolded: I believe it is, because in some situations it actually IS (like the situation I posed, where women have the right to opt out of parenthood, yet men don't). No, I don't believe it hurts men EVERY time... but there are times that it does. There are also times where men don't have the same rights that women do... and that's wrong as well. We are all human and we should all have rights as equal as possible (up until they infringe on the rights of another... of course).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 20:04:03 GMT -5
Then what is the argument about? I'm perfectly fine with being a FEMinist. You are the one that is trying to force me to take on more than I feel like taking on. The argument is about Feminists don't care about the rights of all... yet they like to claim that they do. If you want to be a feminist.. be one... just don't say "It's all about equality"... when it's provably not. Say "it's about female equality"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 20:09:36 GMT -5
That's nonsense. Promoting women's rights is not at the expense of men. Why do you believe it's an either/or situation? Do you feel that every time a woman gets a right it hurts you in some way? Did giving the women the right to vote take away that right for me? if women's pay rises to be equal to men, it is not inherently bad for men. If those men are part of a two-income household, it is good for them. Bolded: In that situation it is. When you give one side a right and deny it to the other side... you are giving that right at the expense of the other side. Unbolded: I believe it is, because in some situations it actually IS (like the situation I posed, where women have the right to opt out of parenthood, yet men don't). No, I don't believe it hurts men EVERY time... but there are times that it does. There are also times where men don't have the same rights that women do... and that's wrong as well. We are all human and we should all have rights as equal as possible (up until they infringe on the rights of another... of course). How do women have the right to opt out of parenthood? I do not understand that part.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 20:19:39 GMT -5
Then what is the argument about? I'm perfectly fine with being a FEMinist. You are the one that is trying to force me to take on more than I feel like taking on. The argument is about Feminists don't care about the rights of all... yet they like to claim that they do. If you want to be a feminist.. be one... just don't say "It's all about equality"... when it's provably not. Say "it's about female equality" I do!!! And you and PI jump all over it saying I have to work for the rights of all. You say I'm not allowed to just work on areas where females are not equal. (Not that your opinions matter much to me but that is what you say)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 21:24:56 GMT -5
Bolded: In that situation it is. When you give one side a right and deny it to the other side... you are giving that right at the expense of the other side. Unbolded: I believe it is, because in some situations it actually IS (like the situation I posed, where women have the right to opt out of parenthood, yet men don't). No, I don't believe it hurts men EVERY time... but there are times that it does. There are also times where men don't have the same rights that women do... and that's wrong as well. We are all human and we should all have rights as equal as possible (up until they infringe on the rights of another... of course). How do women have the right to opt out of parenthood? I do not understand that part. They have the option to abort (ETA: a right I FULLY support, by the way). If you don't understand how that would allow them to "opt out of parenthood" I can't help you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 21:28:55 GMT -5
The argument is about Feminists don't care about the rights of all... yet they like to claim that they do. If you want to be a feminist.. be one... just don't say "It's all about equality"... when it's provably not. Say "it's about female equality" I do!!! And you and PI jump all over it saying I have to work for the rights of all. You say I'm not allowed to just work on areas where females are not equal. (Not that your opinions matter much to me but that is what you say) I've never jumped over someone that said any variation of "I'm fighting for female equality" for calling themselves a feminist. Not once. I have jumped all over people that are fighting for bad causes or for causes that take rights away from others or give rights that would be unequal though... maybe you were on the wrong side of a cause if I ever called you out. I cannot comment on others jumping on you. You'd need to address that to them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 4:58:14 GMT -5
How do women have the right to opt out of parenthood? I do not understand that part. They have the option to abort (ETA: a right I FULLY support, by the way). If you don't understand how that would allow them to "opt out of parenthood" I can't help you. Is she aborting a child or something else? Does what gets aborted have any rights?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 9:44:52 GMT -5
I do!!! And you and PI jump all over it saying I have to work for the rights of all. You say I'm not allowed to just work on areas where females are not equal. (Not that your opinions matter much to me but that is what you say) I've never jumped over someone that said any variation of "I'm fighting for female equality" for calling themselves a feminist. Not once. I have jumped all over people that are fighting for bad causes or for causes that take rights away from others or give rights that would be unequal though... maybe you were on the wrong side of a cause if I ever called you out. I cannot comment on others jumping on you. You'd need to address that to them. LOL you just have no attachment to the truth at all. Bye.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 19:55:38 GMT -5
I've never jumped over someone that said any variation of "I'm fighting for female equality" for calling themselves a feminist. Not once. I have jumped all over people that are fighting for bad causes or for causes that take rights away from others or give rights that would be unequal though... maybe you were on the wrong side of a cause if I ever called you out. I cannot comment on others jumping on you. You'd need to address that to them. LOL you just have no attachment to the truth at all. Bye. LOL... I have no attachment to fantasy, you mean. Bye though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 19:58:07 GMT -5
They have the option to abort (ETA: a right I FULLY support, by the way). If you don't understand how that would allow them to "opt out of parenthood" I can't help you. Is she aborting a child or something else? Does what gets aborted have any rights? What do you think they are aborting? And no. People have rights, fetuses do not.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 20:05:29 GMT -5
Is she aborting a child or something else? Does what gets aborted have any rights? What do you think they are aborting? And no. People have rights, fetuses do not. I agree with Laterbloomer's last post.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 20:06:47 GMT -5
What do you think they are aborting? And no. People have rights, fetuses do not. I agree with Laterbloomer's last post. Believe whatever makes you happy... belief doesn't make fact however.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 8, 2015 12:59:20 GMT -5
and the man still has control over what goes on in his body, neither has control over what goes on in the other without the other's consent. Who said otherwise? I never did. I asked a very simple question: "Should he be allowed to opt out of being a parent if she can?" i think i understand the question, and i think the answer is yes.
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