djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 29, 2015 0:18:36 GMT -5
this is what i mean about "good discussions". good discussions do not ensue from "being worked up" in my experience. edit: in my experience, people pull the victim card when they are tired of arguing. now, that fatigue can be legitimate, or it can just be laziness. but it is no way to argue, ime. if you want to argue, argue like you would in court. innocent until proven guilty. I prefer to argue in the manner the other side argues in... when it's not a criminal case with a person's freedom at stake. In the case of feminism... the arguments from them are "guilty until proven innocent". When both sides use the same manner, everyone understands the rules. quick question: am i allowed to complain about that, or not?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 29, 2015 0:19:42 GMT -5
You don't strike me as one... are you sure you aren't actually an egalitarian? ETA: Many egalitarians mislabel themselves as feminists... for various reasons. Lol! I'm pretty sure I know what I am, Richard. We're not all strident and b!tchy. Still a feminist, though.
weltz: quick question before i judge you bitchy or not. are men allowed to be feminists?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 0:34:31 GMT -5
How does women getting more education tie into this - does the study look into how that plays a role with the pay increase? The one study said it countered for education and field of study....and that most of the pay difference came after having kids and working a shorter amount of hours. Education probably has a good amount to do with why women are earning more than men early in different careers though, especially when the gap of number of men and women going to colleges is growing more and more.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 0:37:28 GMT -5
I didn't realize that thinking people should be treated equally was only "my" battle...but that you see it as an "us vs them" issue, I think is pretty much the issue with this concept and part of what the narrator was talking about in the OP. At least you admit you only see it as an issue if it negatively affects you, otherwise it isn't "your battle." You don't ask people working on the cure for cancer to cure diabetes as well. Or tell them they are hypocrites if they focus on just cancer instead of making sure all diseases are cured. The fact that you won't let me just focus on cancer is a big part of the problem. If you want to cure diabetes have at it. I'd love to see diabetes cured. ETA - I'm done with that part of the argument now. I'm going to focus on being a feminist, not defending being a feminist. That is just a crazy distraction from the issues. That example doesn't really fly....it would be more like complaining that more women die of heart disease than men, and there needs to be more research to stop it. Then when that isn't the case anymore, and more men start dying from it, complaining that women should still be the focus.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 0:39:53 GMT -5
Men didn't just hand over our rights. We had to fight and chew and claw our way to get them, and sometimes went to prison for them. Now you want us to feel sorry for the poor deprived men? If you feel deprived, start a group, write your congressman, have a march, do whatever it takes. We're not going to do it for you. We still have mountains to climb....like the aforementioned maternity leaves and subsidized daycares. What do you want? Paid paternity leaves? I'm sure that if you instituted parental leaves, that would apply to fathers, too. It does here. Or maybe you want mens' breastfeeding rooms at malls and workplaces? Have at it.
Then you're not about equality...it's really that simple.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 0:50:12 GMT -5
what is the complaint that women are not treated right? Mostly pay? What are some examples of non-equal opportunity? How are women not treated equally under the law? Most things listed in the video are still real issues. It is changing thank goodness but we are not there yet. Despite the publicity to the contrary, it is still difficult to get rape prosecuted consistently without re-victimizing the woman that was raped. Those two are off of the top of my head. These days when it comes to "feminist" issues a lot of what I deal with is empowering young women. I do my best to make sure they know the range of life choices they have, counter a lot of the cultural pressure to comply with a particular model of beauty, not to fall for slut shaming or being overly sexualised for someone else's pleasure...all those kinds of things. You know there are a lot of good programs specifically geared toward empowerment of women, helping get them more involved in STEM programs and other worthwhile things. One of the reasons cited for many of these programs is that society doesn't offer a positive role model for women and young girls or doesn't focus enough on them in a positive way. The irony is they seem to leave out boys, who also needs that same thing growing up. So these groups of people are all about empowerment, unless its for boys who I am sure see the lack of interest in them. I don't think it's ok, and I'm disturbed by the number of people who promote it. So for all those who don't really care about men, quit saying you are just working for equality because that isn't the truth at all.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 0:58:35 GMT -5
I've consistently made arguments against where I see the pendulum swinging too far in either direction. I think either all or none should register for selective service. Etc. But like someone said, why does one group have to fight for everyone... yiu feel something is unequal, fight for yourself. One group doesn't have to fight for another one, but if that is the case, then the argument shouldn't be that they are fighting for equal treatment. However, you can't say "fight for yourself" and then in the same breath argue that anybody who says the wage-gap isn't really the same issue is just trying to hold women back and are just chauvinist who want women barefoot in the kitchen.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 1:10:01 GMT -5
Lol! I'm pretty sure I know what I am, Richard. We're not all strident and b!tchy. Still a feminist, though.
weltz: quick question before i judge you bitchy or not. are men allowed to be feminists? Or maybe a better question is to determine if a feminist is just somebody wanting equal treatment for women or is a feminist somebody who is just concerned with women's advancement, even if that means it's at the expense of men falling behind while it's happening? Like I said, I don't see too many people complaining about women making more early on or the growing gap between men and women in college (which will probably only make that worse in the future). Of course to some, me bringing up that issue seems to be because I just want things to stay in the 1950's....
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 1:20:58 GMT -5
I actually see a culture where boys seem to be forgotten about...and I see that being an issue 20 years down the road. There are a lot of good programs to help empower young girls, but somewhere along the way, people seem to have forgotten about the boys too. Whenever there was a gap between boys and girls, there seemed to be a focus on closing that gap, but when it goes the other way...all of a sudden that focus doesn't seem to matter to enough people. We shouldn't stop the programs to help young girls, but we don't have to forget about the boys while we are doing it either. It's not about empowering one group, while purposefully excluding another group...which is exactly what we are doing. It's not the 1950's, or even 1980's anymore...it's time that people stop arguing like the male/female role argument is the same dominant belief that it was at that time.
As far as some of the comments saying I shouldn't have to fight for men...they should do it themselves; I can imagine the responses on this board if somebody said the same thing in reverse.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 29, 2015 2:03:57 GMT -5
Lol! I'm pretty sure I know what I am, Richard. We're not all strident and b!tchy. Still a feminist, though.
weltz: quick question before i judge you bitchy or not. are men allowed to be feminists? ALLOWED? If they want to, sure. Why not?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 29, 2015 2:17:54 GMT -5
You don't ask people working on the cure for cancer to cure diabetes as well. Or tell them they are hypocrites if they focus on just cancer instead of making sure all diseases are cured. The fact that you won't let me just focus on cancer is a big part of the problem. If you want to cure diabetes have at it. I'd love to see diabetes cured. ETA - I'm done with that part of the argument now. I'm going to focus on being a feminist, not defending being a feminist. That is just a crazy distraction from the issues. That example doesn't really fly....it would be more like complaining that more women die of heart disease than men, and there needs to be more research to stop it. Then when that isn't the case anymore, and more men start dying from it, complaining that women should still be the focus. I think more women do die of heart disease then men. There does need to be more research done on women and heart disease. If its government spending, I fully support funding being weighted to the most benefit for the most citizens, when reasonable. So if it were government funding heart disease research *I* would support more women being studied when women's heart disease rates were greater than men's and put more funding into men's heart disease research when and if men started dying more often than women from heart attacks, etc.
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Post by Opti on Jul 29, 2015 2:22:47 GMT -5
I actually see a culture where boys seem to be forgotten about...and I see that being an issue 20 years down the road. There are a lot of good programs to help empower young girls, but somewhere along the way, people seem to have forgotten about the boys too. Whenever there was a gap between boys and girls, there seemed to be a focus on closing that gap, but when it goes the other way...all of a sudden that focus doesn't seem to matter to enough people. We shouldn't stop the programs to help young girls, but we don't have to forget about the boys while we are doing it either. It's not about empowering one group, while purposefully excluding another group...which is exactly what we are doing. It's not the 1950's, or even 1980's anymore...it's time that people stop arguing like the male/female role argument is the same dominant belief that it was at that time. As far as some of the comments saying I shouldn't have to fight for men...they should do it themselves; I can imagine the responses on this board if somebody said the same thing in reverse. There are lots of people fighting the good fight for men with ADHD adults and children. Where is the similar fight for women with the equivalent of Hyper attention disorder, i.e. a woman's traditional ability to multi-task and juggle only taken to extreme levels without the ability to turn that hyper focus off. What about us/them?
Its 2015. Maybe we can help everyone at every age, if they need it. Novel idea?
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Post by Opti on Jul 29, 2015 2:26:19 GMT -5
Crap, Virgil invoked my name in vain ... or something like that? It is toad and frog season if you care.
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Post by Opti on Jul 29, 2015 2:28:14 GMT -5
weltz: quick question before i judge you bitchy or not. are men allowed to be feminists? ALLOWED? If they want to, sure. Why not? I think some folks aren't clear on the definition of the word feminist, plus people tend to have their own private definition of feminism depending on their politics.
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Post by Opti on Jul 29, 2015 2:35:52 GMT -5
I think he's dead wrong with his conclusions. Being born in 1960, towards the end of the Boomers and having much in common with the older GenXers, I tell you, we have been here before. Sometimes, for whatever reason, quotas, the desire to be fair, current fashion, single childless women(some) get better starting salaries than men. So far, since I have been paying attention, the early 1980s, it has *not* translated into better lifetime incomes for women across the board in any age cohort from 1960 to the present day.
Cities are cities. Its where the higher pay lives and the higher cost of living exists. Chung's theory .
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Post by Opti on Jul 29, 2015 2:46:43 GMT -5
I currently make less than $10.50/hr. Please tell me how great my lifetime wages are.
Waits patiently for lying to commence. FWIW, I think the age cohort before me, the end of the silent generation, started taking it on the chin before the clobbered Boomers. Globalization, printing H1B Visas like fiat currency, etc. impacted them and my age cohort. (Age discrimination in IEEE for 50 somethings I think was docuemtned and complained about back in the 1980s.) They are quiet, they are unhappy, and most are thin unhappy men who feel the world sold them a bill of goods. In general they drive econo cars that they can afford - Scions and other vehicles favored by twenty-somethings. They live on crap money like me and not surprisingly, are not amused by it all.
I've learned to watch for them. They are, way too often, faster and angrier than I am. And with the new liar Fter, I am pretty bloody angry recently. (You have been warned! )
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 6:14:36 GMT -5
I've consistently made arguments against where I see the pendulum swinging too far in either direction. I think either all or none should register for selective service. Etc. But like someone said, why does one group have to fight for everyone... yiu feel something is unequal, fight for yourself. One group doesn't have to fight for another one, but if that is the case, then the argument shouldn't be that they are fighting for equal treatment. However, you can't say "fight for yourself" and then in the same breath argue that anybody who says the wage-gap isn't really the same issue is just trying to hold women back and are just chauvinist who want women barefoot in the kitchen. Let's be fair shall we, just because you can cherry pick some data that says, in this specific set of circumstances women might actually earn as much as men, does not inherently denote a reversal of the wage gap. And while not everyone wants women barefoot and pregnant, constant vigilance is necessary to protect the gains women have made. Do I personally attempt to counter issues where I see us going too far and equality for all suffering? Yes. But honestly it isn't my or any woman's job to 'correct' every cherry picked data set which suggests white men are not supreme beings any more. If you are worried about this, instead of asking women to back down, why not investigate causal issues and also try to raise men up as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 8:00:28 GMT -5
Never said I could... that's why I asked. Your lack of answer makes me curious though... are you one and ashamed of being one... or is it that you aren't one and are ashamed that you aren't? None of the above. I don't like discussing things with you. You make no sense and make nasty accusations like the one about feminists saying you're guilty until proven innocent. I've learned not to take conversations with you seriously.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 8:04:57 GMT -5
That example doesn't really fly....it would be more like complaining that more women die of heart disease than men, and there needs to be more research to stop it. Then when that isn't the case anymore, and more men start dying from it, complaining that women should still be the focus. I think more women do die of heart disease then men. There does need to be more research done on women and heart disease. If its government spending, I fully support funding being weighted to the most benefit for the most citizens, when reasonable. So if it were government funding heart disease research *I* would support more women being studied when women's heart disease rates were greater than men's and put more funding into men's heart disease research when and if men started dying more often than women from heart attacks, etc.
More women were dying of heart disease because the symptoms we were taught to look for were based on how men experience heart attacks. Women have different symptoms and experience the pain differently. I believe it was a female doctor that realised this after she had a heart attack. Anyway, they are/did studies to determine the warning signs for women.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 8:10:06 GMT -5
I actually see a culture where boys seem to be forgotten about...and I see that being an issue 20 years down the road. There are a lot of good programs to help empower young girls, but somewhere along the way, people seem to have forgotten about the boys too. Whenever there was a gap between boys and girls, there seemed to be a focus on closing that gap, but when it goes the other way...all of a sudden that focus doesn't seem to matter to enough people. We shouldn't stop the programs to help young girls, but we don't have to forget about the boys while we are doing it either. It's not about empowering one group, while purposefully excluding another group...which is exactly what we are doing. It's not the 1950's, or even 1980's anymore...it's time that people stop arguing like the male/female role argument is the same dominant belief that it was at that time. As far as some of the comments saying I shouldn't have to fight for men...they should do it themselves; I can imagine the responses on this board if somebody said the same thing in reverse. 1. Totally anecdotal, but at both high school graduations I went to in the past two years the big awards, with the bursaries, for maths and sciences went to boys. It was based on their marks so I'm not saying giving out the awards was sexist. I'm saying that where I am boys seem to be doing fine with STEM programs.
2. Having programs for girls did not stop programs for boys in any way.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 29, 2015 8:47:40 GMT -5
I actually see a culture where boys seem to be forgotten about...and I see that being an issue 20 years down the road. There are a lot of good programs to help empower young girls, but somewhere along the way, people seem to have forgotten about the boys too. Whenever there was a gap between boys and girls, there seemed to be a focus on closing that gap, but when it goes the other way...all of a sudden that focus doesn't seem to matter to enough people. We shouldn't stop the programs to help young girls, but we don't have to forget about the boys while we are doing it either. It's not about empowering one group, while purposefully excluding another group...which is exactly what we are doing. It's not the 1950's, or even 1980's anymore...it's time that people stop arguing like the male/female role argument is the same dominant belief that it was at that time. As far as some of the comments saying I shouldn't have to fight for men...they should do it themselves; I can imagine the responses on this board if somebody said the same thing in reverse. There are lots of people fighting the good fight for men with ADHD adults and children. Where is the similar fight for women with the equivalent of Hyper attention disorder, i.e. a woman's traditional ability to multi-task and juggle only taken to extreme levels without the ability to turn that hyper focus off. What about us/them?
Its 2015. Maybe we can help everyone at every age, if they need it. Novel idea?
Makes sense to me and pretty much what I've been saying in most of my post.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 29, 2015 11:06:38 GMT -5
weltz: quick question before i judge you bitchy or not. are men allowed to be feminists? ALLOWED? If they want to, sure. Why not? you would have to ask a feminist that thinks a man could never be one. i honestly don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:20:11 GMT -5
I prefer to argue in the manner the other side argues in... when it's not a criminal case with a person's freedom at stake. In the case of feminism... the arguments from them are "guilty until proven innocent". When both sides use the same manner, everyone understands the rules. quick question: am i allowed to complain about that, or not? Go for it! I can take it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:26:05 GMT -5
I currently make less than $10.50/hr. Please tell me how great my lifetime wages are. Why "$10.50"? Why not "less than $10" or "less than $11" (nice "round" dollar figures)? do you make somewhere between "$10" and "$10.50"? If so... you make more than I do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:31:09 GMT -5
Never said I could... that's why I asked. Your lack of answer makes me curious though... are you one and ashamed of being one... or is it that you aren't one and are ashamed that you aren't? None of the above. I don't like discussing things with you. You make no sense and make nasty accusations like the one about feminists saying you're guilty until proven innocent. I've learned not to take conversations with you seriously. I've never made a nasty accusation. I may have posted facts that were themselves nasty. But those aren't "accusations". Feminists usually operate in the "guilty until proven innocent" manner. If you are an exception to that, I'd be surprised (especially considering your post that I am quoting... calling me guilty of something {"you... ...make nasty accusations"} I am actually not guilty of).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:37:27 GMT -5
I currently make less than $10.50/hr. Please tell me how great my lifetime wages are.
The reason you make less then $10.50/hr is because of choices you make. You are obviously a smart woman. You have some weird ideas (imo) but you could still make a lot better money if you just committed yourself to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:41:43 GMT -5
Quick feminist/egalitarian test question:
If a woman has the right to "opt out" of parenthood (via abortion OR giving up for adoption), should a father have that same right to opt out (tell the mother he opts out and if she continues and keeps the baby it's all on her.. leaving the actual choice of whether to abort or adopt out up to her, so not taking any rights away from her)?
If you say "Yes, a father should have the same right" then you are for equality and an egalitarian.
If you say "No, only a mother should have that right" then you are for female rights at the expense of male rights and are a feminist.
(for the record, this is not "My" test question... I came across this question a few years ago on a blog somewhere. Admittedly, I am paraphrasing it, as I do not know the question and answers "word for bloody word" {to take a quote from the same favorite movie that the quote in my signature is from})
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:46:07 GMT -5
Quick feminist/egalitarian test question: If a woman has the right to "opt out" of parenthood (via abortion OR giving up for adoption), should a father have that same right to opt out (tell the mother he opts out and if she continues and keeps the baby it's all on her.. leaving the actual choice of whether to abort or adopt out up to her, so not taking any rights away from her)? If you say "Yes, a father should have the same right" then you are for equality and an egalitarian. If you say "No, only a mother should have that right" then you are for female rights at the expense of male rights and are a feminist. (for the record, this is not "My" test question... I came across this question a few years ago on a blog somewhere. Admittedly, I am paraphrasing it, as I do not know the question and answers "word for bloody word" {to take a quote from the same favorite movie that the quote in my signature is from}) I would answer that question, "no one has the right to tell my daughters what to do with their body".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:48:41 GMT -5
Quick feminist/egalitarian test question: If a woman has the right to "opt out" of parenthood (via abortion OR giving up for adoption), should a father have that same right to opt out (tell the mother he opts out and if she continues and keeps the baby it's all on her.. leaving the actual choice of whether to abort or adopt out up to her, so not taking any rights away from her)? If you say "Yes, a father should have the same right" then you are for equality and an egalitarian. If you say "No, only a mother should have that right" then you are for female rights at the expense of male rights and are a feminist. (for the record, this is not "My" test question... I came across this question a few years ago on a blog somewhere. Admittedly, I am paraphrasing it, as I do not know the question and answers "word for bloody word" {to take a quote from the same favorite movie that the quote in my signature is from}) What if you answer, "all people have the right to decide what goes on in their body"? Nothing. Because that answer doesn't apply to the question (note how the bolded still leaves that right intact for the woman that has the pregnancy?). ETA: your edit of doesn't apply either... for the same reason.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:53:53 GMT -5
What if you answer, "all people have the right to decide what goes on in their body"? Nothing. Because that answer doesn't apply to the question (note how the bolded still leaves that right intact for the woman that has the pregnancy?). ETA: your edit of doesn't apply either... for the same reason. I'm sorry, I misunderstood the science. I thought the gestation took place in the woman's body.
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