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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:16:17 GMT -5
As someone said, there is so much wrong with that video it's hard to know where to start. And overwhelming to think of listing all of it. WTH, I will be in and out so I'll post stuff as it comes to me.
First of all, women being the most free they have been in history (btw that alone could be challenged) anyway, being the most free and equal we have ever been is not good enough. We deserve to be completely free and completely equal. We don't have to settle just because this might be the best it has ever been.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 28, 2015 13:16:31 GMT -5
it is amazing how much resistance for this there is in the "pro-family" Republican Party. i guess some things are more important than family. Now DJ, where is your philosophical arguments when somebody tries to make an argument against something that wasn't actually said. Maybe the title of the OP should be angry feminism vs truth because that really seems to be the issue the narrator has (angry feminism instead of feminism in general). Dam right I'm angry! Angry that American women are still getting the shaft.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:17:26 GMT -5
it is amazing how much resistance for this there is in the "pro-family" Republican Party. i guess some things are more important than family. Now DJ, where is your philosophical arguments when somebody tries to make an argument against something that wasn't actually said. Maybe the title of the OP should be angry feminism vs truth because that really seems to be the issue the narrator has (angry feminism instead of feminism in general). Oh no, the narrator has a problem with feminism in general so it is titled correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:20:54 GMT -5
Then there is the point that women are only paid less in careers that pay less. This ignores the fact that traditionally female industries are valued less than traditionally masculine ones. What logical reason is there for the fact that the woman, or person, that takes care of your child is paid less than the guy, or person, that fixes your car?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:21:45 GMT -5
As someone said, there is so much wrong with that video it's hard to know where to start. And overwhelming to think of listing all of it. WTH, I will be in and out so I'll post stuff as it comes to me. First of all, women being the most free they have been in history (btw that alone could be challenged) anyway, being the most free and equal we have ever been is not good enough. We deserve to be completely free and completely equal. We don't have to settle just because this might be the best it has ever been. What are you not "completely free and completely equal" to do? The narrator never said to stop trying to make things better, but challenged some of the complaints often used.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:22:43 GMT -5
Then there is the point that women are only paid less in careers that pay less. This ignores the fact that traditionally female industries are valued less than traditionally masculine ones. What logical reason is there for the fact that the woman, or person, that takes care of your child is paid less than the guy, or person, that fixes your car? Number of people who can and would do the job is my guess, but that's only a guess because daycare wasn't cheap when my kids were in it. It's kid of one of those things, if the amount of money that can be made goes up, then more people go to do it...which drives up competition, and drives the price down to the point that more people don't think it's worth getting into doing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:22:41 GMT -5
And I defy you to find the difference in education that explains why actresses are paid less than actors. It's been proven that female centred movies can have as big a box office as male centred. When they get made that is.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:23:49 GMT -5
Then there is the point that women are only paid less in careers that pay less. This ignores the fact that traditionally female industries are valued less than traditionally masculine ones. What logical reason is there for the fact that the woman, or person, that takes care of your child is paid less than the guy, or person, that fixes your car? Number of people who can and would do the job is my guess, but that's only a guess because daycare wasn't cheap when my kids were in it. No PI, it is because child care is a "woman's field".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 13:26:44 GMT -5
As someone said, there is so much wrong with that video it's hard to know where to start. And overwhelming to think of listing all of it. WTH, I will be in and out so I'll post stuff as it comes to me. First of all, women being the most free they have been in history (btw that alone could be challenged) anyway, being the most free and equal we have ever been is not good enough. We deserve to be completely free and completely equal. We don't have to settle just because this might be the best it has ever been. What are you not "completely free and completely equal" to do? The narrator never said to stop trying to make things better, but challenged some of the complaints often used. The narrator characterizes the feminist analysis that identifies inequalities as "playing the victim". The fact that younger women are doing better in the areas of education and income equality is in great part due to the work of feminists pointing out the inequalities and encouraging defying them.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:26:45 GMT -5
Number of people who can and would do the job is my guess, but that's only a guess because daycare wasn't cheap when my kids were in it. No PI, it is because child care is a "woman's field". So I offer a possible explanation based on economic principles and you shut it down because you think it's due to sexism? If you think that's the reason, then no matter what I say, you will still believe that to be the primary reason.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 28, 2015 13:28:26 GMT -5
Daycare is $7 a day here. Women can afford it. Otherwise, why not stay home and collect welfare, if every penny gets sucked up by child care? Just not worth it.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:31:13 GMT -5
What are you not "completely free and completely equal" to do? The narrator never said to stop trying to make things better, but challenged some of the complaints often used. The narrator characterizes the feminist analysis that identifies inequalities as "playing the victim". The fact that younger women are doing better in the areas of education and income equality is in great part due to the work of feminists pointing out the inequalities and encouraging defying them. They are "playing the victim" in a lot instances (i.e. charging more for health insurance is sexist, but charging men more for other insurances is completely fine)....or arguing that women with MBAs make up to 40% less 10 years later, even though the data they pulled that from showed the primary reasons for it had more to do with having kids and working fewer hours than male counterparts; all while being completely fine with women making more than men early on. When that is the case, it's not really about equality because they don't care if men get shafted.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 28, 2015 13:31:37 GMT -5
it is amazing how much resistance for this there is in the "pro-family" Republican Party. i guess some things are more important than family. Now DJ, where is your philosophical arguments when somebody tries to make an argument against something that wasn't actually said. Maybe the title of the OP should be angry feminism vs truth because that really seems to be the issue the narrator has (angry feminism instead of feminism in general). it could be "feminism -vs- misogyny", too. all equally inflammatory and inaccurate.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 28, 2015 13:33:58 GMT -5
Then there is the point that women are only paid less in careers that pay less. This ignores the fact that traditionally female industries are valued less than traditionally masculine ones. What logical reason is there for the fact that the woman, or person, that takes care of your child is paid less than the guy, or person, that fixes your car? this is precisely it. anyone here ever heard the phrase "women's work"? i thought so.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:34:48 GMT -5
Daycare is $7 a day here. Women can afford it. Otherwise, why not stay home and collect welfare, if every penny gets sucked up by child care? Just not worth it. Believe it or not...some women and men actually want to spend more time with their kids growing up. It's not some evil ploy to "keep women in the home where they belong." If you want to argue that daycare cost is something we need to address, then we can talk about it (although there are programs depending on your income level)....but to argue that it's just another way to keep women down is not an argument to use about it.
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:37:10 GMT -5
Then there is the point that women are only paid less in careers that pay less. This ignores the fact that traditionally female industries are valued less than traditionally masculine ones. What logical reason is there for the fact that the woman, or person, that takes care of your child is paid less than the guy, or person, that fixes your car? this is precisely it. anyone here ever heard the phrase "women's work"? i thought so. So you're saying women are either not smart enough or not independent enough to make their own decisions when deciding what careers to go into?
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 28, 2015 13:37:16 GMT -5
how dare women demand paid maternity leave! Those turds at the Focus on Family groups want to screw women over every chance they get. What? Maternity leave and daycare?? Communism!!
If it was good enough for our grandmothers, it should be good enough for you!
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 28, 2015 13:38:50 GMT -5
The narrator characterizes the feminist analysis that identifies inequalities as "playing the victim". The fact that younger women are doing better in the areas of education and income equality is in great part due to the work of feminists pointing out the inequalities and encouraging defying them. They are "playing the victim" in a lot instances i gotta warn you, dude- if you want to have a discussion about this, this is NOT the right tactic. just sayin.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 28, 2015 13:39:22 GMT -5
this is precisely it. anyone here ever heard the phrase "women's work"? i thought so. So you're saying women are either not smart enough or not independent enough to make their own decisions when deciding what careers to go into? nope. i am not saying either of those things.
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 28, 2015 13:42:44 GMT -5
Daycare is $7 a day here. Women can afford it. Otherwise, why not stay home and collect welfare, if every penny gets sucked up by child care? Just not worth it. Believe it or not...some women and men actually want to spend more time with their kids growing up. It's not some evil ploy to "keep women in the home where they belong." If you want to argue that daycare cost is something we need to address, then we can talk about it....but to argue that it's just another way to keep women down is not an argument to use about it. It's my argument, and I'm sticking to it. You want more people on the dole so they can spend more time with their kids? Women/men get a full year of maternity leave to bond with their infants. That's when it's needed. From coping with post-partum depression, to adjusting to a whole new life, to breastfeeding, to having night after sleepless night, to learning parenting skills...it's a good thing.
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 28, 2015 13:47:00 GMT -5
Daycare is $7 a day here. Women can afford it. Otherwise, why not stay home and collect welfare, if every penny gets sucked up by child care? Just not worth it. Believe it or not...some women and men actually want to spend more time with their kids growing up. It's not some evil ploy to "keep women in the home where they belong." If you want to argue that daycare cost is something we need to address, then we can talk about it (although there are programs depending on your income level)....but to argue that it's just another way to keep women down is not an argument to use about it. Did you quit your job to become a house husband?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:50:06 GMT -5
They are "playing the victim" in a lot instances i gotta warn you, dude- if you want to have a discussion about this, this is NOT the right tactic. just sayin. What tactic am I using..."playing the victim" is an effective tactic to get people worked up. "You're a victim of Democrats trying to turn our country into a Socialist country," or "You're a victim of Republican racism, sexism, class-ism, and [insert any other "ism" you can think of]," or "You're a victim of [insert whatever you'd like]." People play that card because it motivates people to do what they want them to do...it doesn't matter if it's true or not, what really matters is that people believe it to be true...feminism is no different.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:51:44 GMT -5
Believe it or not...some women and men actually want to spend more time with their kids growing up. It's not some evil ploy to "keep women in the home where they belong." If you want to argue that daycare cost is something we need to address, then we can talk about it (although there are programs depending on your income level)....but to argue that it's just another way to keep women down is not an argument to use about it. Did you quit your job to become a house husband? My wife actually wanted to be a SAHM. Honestly, I was nervous about it, but it was something she really wanted to do and we worked it out.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 13:54:06 GMT -5
Believe it or not...some women and men actually want to spend more time with their kids growing up. It's not some evil ploy to "keep women in the home where they belong." If you want to argue that daycare cost is something we need to address, then we can talk about it....but to argue that it's just another way to keep women down is not an argument to use about it. It's my argument, and I'm sticking to it. You want more people on the dole so they can spend more time with their kids? Women/men get a full year of maternity leave to bond with their infants. That's when it's needed. From coping with post-partum depression, to adjusting to a whole new life, to breastfeeding, to having night after sleepless night, to learning parenting skills...it's a good thing.
I'm not really for or against it; but I do think there probably are some logistical and economic issues that could associated with it (especially in our type of economy). However, I don't think it's some massive conspiracy to hold women back either.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 28, 2015 13:57:14 GMT -5
Did you quit your job to become a house husband? My wife actually wanted to be a SAHM. Honestly, I was nervous about it, but it was something she really wanted to do and we worked it out. She wanted it and you could afford it. Not everybody can.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 14:02:16 GMT -5
My wife actually wanted to be a SAHM. Honestly, I was nervous about it, but it was something she really wanted to do and we worked it out. She wanted it and you could afford it. Not everybody can. She didn't stay home until we could afford it...and it took some lifestyle changes to do it. Not everybody can afford to do it...I'm not arguing that point and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point being argued. If you want to argue that we should try to find a way to make daycare more affordable for those who can't afford it (which there are programs for by the way), that's something we can discuss. People who can't afford to quit their jobs to stay home with the kids still have to find child care, and yes find jobs that work around those hours because most child care that I've seen are regular 8-6 Monday-Friday...unless you find somebody you know to watch the kids.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 28, 2015 14:10:35 GMT -5
i gotta warn you, dude- if you want to have a discussion about this, this is NOT the right tactic. just sayin. What tactic am I using..."playing the victim" is an effective tactic to get people worked up. this is what i mean about "good discussions". good discussions do not ensue from "being worked up" in my experience. edit: in my experience, people pull the victim card when they are tired of arguing. now, that fatigue can be legitimate, or it can just be laziness. but it is no way to argue, ime. if you want to argue, argue like you would in court. innocent until proven guilty.
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 28, 2015 14:13:25 GMT -5
She wanted it and you could afford it. Not everybody can. She didn't stay home until we could afford it...and it took some lifestyle changes to do it. Not everybody can afford to do it...I'm not arguing that point and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point being argued. If you want to argue that we should try to find a way to make daycare more affordable for those who can't afford it (which there are programs for by the way), that's something we can discuss. People who can't afford to quit their jobs to stay home with the kids still have to find child care, and yes find jobs that work around those hours because most child care that I've seen are regular 8-6 Monday-Friday...unless you find somebody you know to watch the kids. Those programs apply only to those with a very low income. Average daycare costs in the US are about $1,000 a month. Even those with a slightly higher income can't afford $12,000 a year. What are they to do? Again...either quit or go on welfare.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 28, 2015 14:13:31 GMT -5
What tactic am I using..."playing the victim" is an effective tactic to get people worked up. this is what i mean about "good discussions". good discussions do not ensue from "being worked up" in my experience. edit: in my experience, people pull the victim card when they are tired of arguing. now, that fatigue can be legitimate, or it can just be laziness. but it is no way to argue, ime. if you want to argue, argue like you would in court. innocent until proven guilty. I used the same terminology as the poster I was responding to at the time.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 28, 2015 14:17:36 GMT -5
There may well be. But in that case, dispute the claims in the video, don't throw the whole thing away because you're skeptical of the source. I've caught publications like HuffPo in lies, glaring omissions, and inexcusable editorial bias on dozens of occasions, but I still do posters the service of treating the articles seriously when they come up for discussion. Sometimes HuffPo even trumps the sites I generally consider more credible, when they fall victim to their own biases. Virgil- let me ask you a question. do you think we should spend our time debating the philosophical underpinnings of the KKK, the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers in a way that treats them as if they had equal footing with say, Kantian ethics, the Bible, and Ayn Rand? The more appropriate question is: if an article appears on KKK.org, should we summarily reject all of its contentions? I say 'no'. We should be extremely skeptical, and I acknowledge that some sources are rife with garbage (Slate comes to mind), but garbage sources can still bring forward true and relevant facts. As I see it, we're a discerning group of people, and if a poster thinks enough of a particular article to post it on YMAM for discussion, this is sufficient reason to not dismiss it out of hand. I don't care if Opti posts a thread "The Reptilians are Coming". If she takes the issue seriously, that behooves us to be open-minded enough to read the OP so that we have a basis for our skepticism. More to the point, we haven't had any "The Reptilians are Coming" threads precisely because posters don't consider them credible enough to discuss. Paul has misfired a few times. EVT misfired a few times. You and I have been caught on occasion. But 98% of the time there's some merit to the OP. If not, the beatdown is swift and spectacular. Where the credibility of the source comes into play is in our willingness to believe facts presented without substantiation. For example, if KKK.org claims that "95% of blacks are criminals" without citing a source, I wouldn't blame anyone for rejecting the claim prima facie.
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