andi9899
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Gah!!!
Jun 22, 2015 13:55:55 GMT -5
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 22, 2015 13:55:55 GMT -5
If she hasn't updated the child support, she should. I say this, but I haven't done it even though I could. Baby Daddy is a real winner and the kids don't want to see him and I don't really feel safe with him having them. I know one does not have to do with the other, but if he was paying, he may have reason to want to come around. I'd rather be poor than have to send my children somewhere unsafe because a piece of paper says that I have to.
Believe you me, when Thing 2 turns 18, I am asking that child support continues as long as she is a FT student and evaluated to make sure it's fair. He can't force her to see him then. If I can't get child support continued, oh well. We don't need him anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 13:59:21 GMT -5
You seem like such a nice guy, Beer, that I feel bad for pointing this out. Your chosen financial contributions are rather controlling. You pay for the groceries. Unless you hand her a credit card or money to shop with, you are basically controlling what everyone eats or you both are buying groceries. DH contributes some to the food budget, and I buy anything he puts down (Ensure, k-cups, personal supplies, etc.) even though it's nothing I myself use. I also buy most of the food we eat. But he goes to the grocery store a lot on his own and buys more stuff. I might say that I pay for groceries, and I do. But no one pays for all of it.
You also say you pay for "vacations." You didn't pay for this one, though. Actually, you did to a some extent, but that wasn't your plan. I jokingly pointed out earlier that it was "your" fault. If you had gone with her, you would have paid. You thought it was a bad idea so she had to pay. So what you are saying really is that you pay for vacations that you both go on.
No wonder she thinks she can exercise her champagne tastes with you. That's really what you are offering . . . life's little extras like more expensive food or going out or nice vacations.
When she shows you the spreadsheet, ask her if you can look at it for a little while before commenting. Look at how much it really costs to run that household. We don't live anywhere fancy, but it costs about $1500 here to cover the house payment, the utilities, satellite, phone, internet, lawn care. If you were living here, I'd expect you to pay $500 of it every month. But that wouldn't let you off the hook on food, etc. It's just sharing the cost of where to put your head. Work out something like I described for what DH and I do on groceries. His contribution is minimal ($50 a month), but he pays when we go out. But then again I pay when I pick up fast food or a pizza or a salad he would like. It balances out.
We don't really vacation these days (DH has a lot of health problems), but my ex-BF (live-in) and I did stuff like I paid for the room and he covered gas/food. When we decided to go to Disney, we both put $100 a month into an online account and saved up the $$$ together.
Again, I think you are great, Beer. I just don't think you've completely thought this through.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 22, 2015 14:51:07 GMT -5
In some states it does. Both Michigan, Oregon, and Florida have cohabitation rules. When there are minor children. I live in one of those states and married or not, unless the cohabitator's income is at least more than $10,000/month, it is not considered in the child support equation. This knowledge was acquired within the last 12 months and is from personal experience.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Jun 22, 2015 14:56:44 GMT -5
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 22, 2015 14:56:44 GMT -5
if you plan well enough there are no emergencies. I'd "like" this 100 times if I could.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Gah!!!
Jun 22, 2015 15:04:40 GMT -5
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 22, 2015 15:04:40 GMT -5
In regard to the finances and who pays what, this only came up for DH and I when his XW was trying to establish additional alimony. I had to write out a budget and back it up with bank statements showing how DH (then-partner) was paying certain bills. His XW tried to state that I was paying all the bills and therefore his income was not being expended as much and she should have increased alimony. Since DSS#2 had turned 17 by this point (and had been living with us exclusively for over a year), child support was not an issue because neither DH nor DSS were asking for her to pay any. I realize that rukh's point might be that it is beneficial for beergut and his GF have a more concrete plan for what the household expenses are and who is paying what, even if it means beergut is just writing a check to GF each month. (DH, then partner, wrote me a check also for about a year.Oh okay, I wrote the check and told him to sign it )
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Gah!!!
Jun 22, 2015 15:09:45 GMT -5
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 22, 2015 15:09:45 GMT -5
Eh, that's tricky because it's based simply on one's perception.
At some point in my parents' marriage, they reached the agreement that my mother would pay for the groceries and manage the rental house and my dad would pay for everything else. My mother never felt controlled. If anything, she felt more in control because she knew what she was in charge of. Anything left over from her paychecks she got to spend how she wanted. I'm not sure when this started happening. My mother stayed home for at least ten years and then went to work for 20 hours per week in clerical position. So, I know it was after she went back to work.
From another perception, my mother was completely financially dependent on my father and her father (inheritance). So, while she felt in control, she also was controlled due to her desire to not work full time.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 22, 2015 15:32:19 GMT -5
She didn't ask for $200 to buy a lamp, she was out of town at a hotel - and she thought she could swing it and then suddenly she couldn't. If you are in a hotel and can't pay the bill - what happens? I do call that an emergency. sure she made some errors leading up to it - forgot the lamp charges, miscalculated the costs - but when she realized those errors - it was an emergency situation. Well, here's where we differ. My emergency fund is for if we are dying or I lose my job. I have another savings account to cover miscalculated costs. That's what we use to pay unexpected expenses that can't be cashflowed. And, if my checkbook was about to go negative, I'd transfer money from savings to checking. She also could have returned the lamp and/or tried to cancel the order. Normally, we only buy things that we have the money for. Isn't that what people are supposed to do, for the most part?
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zibazinski
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Jun 22, 2015 15:39:09 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Jun 22, 2015 15:39:09 GMT -5
I agree that in those states or any state his income isn't used to compute CS. But it can be brought up before the judge that the boyfriend is living there. Some judges wink about it but some won't and will not increase CS and will sometimes do other things if they feel someone is "abusing" the payments. Supporting a boyfriend or subjecting someone's children to a live in boyfriend doesn't always set well with judges.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 15:54:05 GMT -5
Eh, that's tricky because it's based simply on one's perception. At some point in my parents' marriage, they reached the agreement that my mother would pay for the groceries and manage the rental house and my dad would pay for everything else. My mother never felt controlled. If anything, she felt more in control because she knew what she was in charge of. Anything left over from her paychecks she got to spend how she wanted. I'm not sure when this started happening. My mother stayed home for at least ten years and then went to work for 20 hours per week in clerical position. So, I know it was after she went back to work. From another perception, my mother was completely financially dependent on my father and her father (inheritance). So, while she felt in control, she also was controlled due to her desire to not work full time. Why wouldn't your mother feel in control? She was. In fact, she got a good deal (as is Beer) in that she got a fluctuating expense instead of a fixed expense. If she felt that she wanted to spend money on something else, you guys ate more chicken.
Beer has the fluctuating expenses . . . the food (which she supplements, I am willing to wager) and the vacations. She gets to make the house payment, pay the utilities and other expenses, etc. If he doesn't feel he wants to spend as much, he buys less or they vacation less.
It is not a fair trade. This is from someone who is married with separate finances.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Jun 22, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -5
Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 22, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -5
Susana, maybe I misunderstood your original point. I'm working on job applications at the same time as browsing here.
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Jun 22, 2015 21:23:30 GMT -5
Well, here's where we differ. My emergency fund is for if we are dying or I lose my job. I have another savings account to cover miscalculated costs. That's what we use to pay unexpected expenses that can't be cashflowed. And, if my checkbook was about to go negative, I'd transfer money from savings to checking. She also could have returned the lamp and/or tried to cancel the order. Normally, we only buy things that we have the money for. Isn't that what people are supposed to do, for the most part? I think you're being deliberately obtuse here. We agree that she could have and should have done several things prior to this incident for it not to happen. But once she was there with an outstanding bill and no means to pay it - that's an issue. cirsis? emergency? call it what you like. What exactly does the hotel clerk do if you check out and can't pay the bill in full? I honestly have no idea - but in that situation, I'd be imagining having the police called like on a shoplifter and being escorted out in handcuffs to the squad car facing charges of - idk - pety theft, wire fraud? who knows what...... I'd panic, I'd call it an emergency. I imagine you wind up with an overdraft fee. Although I got the perhaps mistaken impression that she realized it midway through the stay (i.e. she had the choice of leaving early and cutting down on the bill and decided to ask the OP for money instead). The problem I have is that this so-called emergency is down to a series of irresponsible choices. I can imagine being in a spot where an should-have-been-but-wasn't-expected $200 expense would tip me over the edge; what I can't imagine is going on a vacation when I don't have even $200 to spare in case of emergency. I also find it extremely troubling that the person in question has a history of spending everything available and turning to someone else to bail her out. I think the OP is right to be concerned about getting pushed into the role of enabler. I'm not assuming the OP is entirely blameless in their dynamic, but I think this particular incident is clearly bothering him enough that they ought to sit down and talk about it (uncomfortable!). Possibly with a counselor present, since I think milee is as usual spot-on that their respective ideas of what's okay/where this is going don't mesh as well as they may assume. Both you and the OP are of course free to ignore my suggestion. beergut, we would love to be kept in the loop as to what happens.
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obelisk
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Post by obelisk on Jun 22, 2015 23:10:50 GMT -5
In a similar situation with an expectation to be the EF, I subsequently transferred all my funds into an SP500. When I was next asked for more funding, I simply stated that my funds where invested and it would take 5 working days to transfer to my bank account and there where taxes to be incurred on capital gains. If you are wondering, the relationship did not last.
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beergut
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Jun 23, 2015 11:43:02 GMT -5
Post by beergut on Jun 23, 2015 11:43:02 GMT -5
Some good food for thought in your post. My impression has been that before she met me, they didn't do a lot as far as traveling goes. They were a one-income household, and when her money ran out, they waited until the next payday. If an emergency like an auto repair came up and she didn't have the cash, she went to her father for help. My big concern is that because I'm there, she now thinks she can do the things she couldn't afford to do before, and she has champagne tastes. I'm also worried that she thinks I will 'save her' like her daddy did when she made poor decisions, and I want her to understand that there is no Prince Charming in the world, that's just a Disney story. FWIW, when we go on vacation, I pay for everything. I'm usually the one who pushes to go certain places, especially weekend getaways once every few months. She needs time away from the kids, and we need time together. huh? so these vacays are minus the kids? where do they go - as the father isn't taking them every other weekend? Our vacations tend to be short, usually 3-4 days, as I schedule them around weekends. In that case, the girls usually go and spend a few nights at a girlfriend's house. We live in a small town where everyone knows everyone, and there is a veritable village of mothers watching over all the kids. Kids staying overnight with friends is very common. The longest vacation we've taken was one week, and GF's parents (kids' grandparents) came to watch over the kids. They live about 15 minutes away. The kids like it, because their grandparents spoil them.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jun 23, 2015 11:48:48 GMT -5
Some good food for thought in your post. My impression has been that before she met me, they didn't do a lot as far as traveling goes. They were a one-income household, and when her money ran out, they waited until the next payday. If an emergency like an auto repair came up and she didn't have the cash, she went to her father for help. My big concern is that because I'm there, she now thinks she can do the things she couldn't afford to do before, and she has champagne tastes. I'm also worried that she thinks I will 'save her' like her daddy did when she made poor decisions, and I want her to understand that there is no Prince Charming in the world, that's just a Disney story. FWIW, when we go on vacation, I pay for everything. I'm usually the one who pushes to go certain places, especially weekend getaways once every few months. She needs time away from the kids, and we need time together. If this is truly a big concern, then you shouldn't have arranged the finances the way you have - because they are muddy and it's hard to tell if you are paying your fair share - or less or more than that. The price of the mortgage is irrelevant unless you are one of the mortgagees. If you want to have things be "fair", then you'd need to determine rental market rate, and then your proportion of that. Whether your portion would be 50% based on 2 earners, or 1/5 based on people in household, or maybe a third - as an in between measure. also - anyone in a cohabiting situation sharing expenses should have more money to do more things with. If I have a renter move in with me, I now have some extra money, so it's a bit unfair to expect that she would have no perceptions of having more leeway. Until this post - I had thought you were feeling relatively good about the arrangements, concerned about the hiccups , but generally ok - but now it doesn't seem so. Your current financial arrangements with her are ambiguous enough to make it possible that you both could think you're getting the short end of it financially. If you didn't care about that, it wouldn't matter. But it seems that you do care and worried about underlying dynamics. That isn't a good situation for either of you, so I suggest making things more straigh forward and roommate-like. Also - if she 'isn't good with money', the ambiguousness of the current spending splits may make it more difficult for her to get a handle on her spending in terms of what her basic lifestyle costs and how much certain choices affect that. Good thoughts. My concern is more that because I'm there, there is not an urgency to become fiscally responsible. It is one thing to think "There is an extra income here, therefore we can afford some of the things we couldn't afford before", it is quite another to think "There is an extra income, woohoo, can up my lifestyle and consumer habits". I'm worried GF is doing the latter.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 23, 2015 12:28:12 GMT -5
Haven't guys talked about it? I mean really sat down without a kid in sight and put it all out there on the table. Make a list of what you each are responsible for and stick to it. Agree in no uncertain terms is either of you to be expected to be the EF for the other. Come up with a savings plan together. I would also maintain separate accounts until you guys are married. That's just me though and I swore off marriage long ago.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 13:08:10 GMT -5
If this is truly a big concern, then you shouldn't have arranged the finances the way you have - because they are muddy and it's hard to tell if you are paying your fair share - or less or more than that. The price of the mortgage is irrelevant unless you are one of the mortgagees. If you want to have things be "fair", then you'd need to determine rental market rate, and then your proportion of that. Whether your portion would be 50% based on 2 earners, or 1/5 based on people in household, or maybe a third - as an in between measure. also - anyone in a cohabiting situation sharing expenses should have more money to do more things with. If I have a renter move in with me, I now have some extra money, so it's a bit unfair to expect that she would have no perceptions of having more leeway. Until this post - I had thought you were feeling relatively good about the arrangements, concerned about the hiccups , but generally ok - but now it doesn't seem so. Your current financial arrangements with her are ambiguous enough to make it possible that you both could think you're getting the short end of it financially. If you didn't care about that, it wouldn't matter. But it seems that you do care and worried about underlying dynamics. That isn't a good situation for either of you, so I suggest making things more straigh forward and roommate-like. Also - if she 'isn't good with money', the ambiguousness of the current spending splits may make it more difficult for her to get a handle on her spending in terms of what her basic lifestyle costs and how much certain choices affect that. Good thoughts. My concern is more that because I'm there, there is not an urgency to become fiscally responsible. It is one thing to think "There is an extra income here, therefore we can afford some of the things we couldn't afford before", it is quite another to think "There is an extra income, woohoo, can up my lifestyle and consumer habits". I'm worried GF is doing the latter. But again, you are likely, unintentionally, reinforcing that idea. You pay for the good food, the vacations, the camps she couldn't give the kids on her own, etc... You ARE uping her lifestyle with your contributions... Instead of paying the extras, you'd be better off to come up with a budget that splits the actual expenses, and then both save up for the extras that you want, together or separately. Plus then you would both better understand what it takes to run the household.
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zibazinski
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Jun 24, 2015 8:08:51 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Jun 24, 2015 8:08:51 GMT -5
Yes!! Then stick to it. Much better for you to pay her monthly for living there and see how she budgets.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 30, 2015 10:08:47 GMT -5
Andi is nosy and would like an update. Please and thank you.
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Chocolate Lover
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Jun 30, 2015 11:53:33 GMT -5
Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 30, 2015 11:53:33 GMT -5
I have a suggestion: I wouldn't hold the money she requested against her exactly, but I would make it uncomfortable for her. Be careful about how you do it--you don't want to come off as her parent or a jerk in general--but tell her you're really concerned that she had to ask you for money twice, on a vacation that you thought was too expensive already. Have her go over the details with you of why exactly she went $300 over budget, why she never accounted for the lamp shade, etc. Best case scenario, it may actually help her to stop and think next time before she drops a bunch of money she doesn't have on non-necessities; worst case she'll still think twice before treating you as her EF again because she'll have negative associations with the consequences. (OK, maybe worst case she blows up at you treating her like a child and dumps you, but if you're careful about the way you do it and she still does that then it might be for the best...) Bumps and mishaps happen. If you're satisfied with her overall effort, then I'd let it go... but I'd still make her a little uncomfortable about it first. Just my $0.02. I don't think this is the way to go in a relationship. And for me, if I was trying to make some fundamental changes due to the requests of an SO, and in the process of making those changes, I had a misstep and needed to request help on an emergency basis - and then someone thought it was a good idea to try to make me feel worse than I already did? that would not go over well with me. It's a fine line to tiptoe but if you're dealing with someone who has no clue financially, sometimes you have to make things hurt them a little for them to get it. I've done the gentle discussion and the let them feel the pinch with my DH. Guess which he notices and remembers? I see the suggestion as a take them through it step by step with "innocent" questions and see if the light bulb goes off rather than being nasty to them about it.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 30, 2015 12:00:32 GMT -5
My point is that Beergut is pushing the GF to go back for more CS. It's possible that GF makes a lot more than ex. Going to court can be a cr*pshoot. Plus, big picture, those kids are almost out of the house.
17, 15, something, right? So two years of higher payments after spending a year in court? hardly seems worth the heartache and drama of court.
I think it would be worth court if college wasn't provisioned, perhaps. It would be worth a consult with a divorce attorney in the area to see if they think you could measurably improve it, but I wouldn't start actions against the bio dad until i had consulted to see if it was even going to make much difference.
Most states don't have a "go to court" procedure just for child support. There is a set formula. The GF, if she's interested, just needs to go on the state's website for family services, find the calculator, fill in as accurate of numbers as she can figure and press "calculate" to see if there's disparity between the current obligation and what the current situation is.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 30, 2015 14:35:17 GMT -5
It's a fine line to tiptoe but if you're dealing with someone who has no clue financially, sometimes you have to make things hurt them a little for them to get it. I've done the gentle discussion and the let them feel the pinch with my DH. Guess which he notices and remembers? I see the suggestion as a take them through it step by step with "innocent" questions and see if the light bulb goes off rather than being nasty to them about it. Everyone has their faults, but big picture she has been trying to make positive changes per beergut's requests. In this instance, she didn't fare too well. We all agree on that. Beer said he thinks she is embarrassed. And the advice is to make her feel worse? There is a difference between letting someone have the consequences of their mistake and fixing it vs making them feel "uncomfortable." Ah, but he didn't let her have the consequences of her mistakes. He fixed it for her.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 30, 2015 14:48:24 GMT -5
Woah!!! Did I miss a thread? I balance to the penny all my accounts every month!!! Yeah. There was one where we were talking about it and apparently I am a rare breed who keeps a ledger and keeps track of their money. Some people said they haven't balanced a checkbook in 20+ years. That would be me. Community property states are a bitch in divorce from what I hear Yes, they are. One of my bosses got taken to the cleaners when his wife chose to divorce him. His alimony alone was like 40K/year, even though he paid for her masters and she was dallying on getting a job. She also got half of all his retirement accounts. He figured he had to work until he was 70 just to catch up to where he was before the separation/divorce. Yeah, I don't want to even tell you about DH's agreement. It's heart stopping.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 30, 2015 14:52:56 GMT -5
As long as he doesn't marry her. But her ex could bring up to the judge there's a boyfriend living there. That raises questions. Yes it does. <----------------------- Exhibit A. One reason we never got married and had 2 residences for a long time.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 30, 2015 16:30:35 GMT -5
Andi is nosy and would like an update. Please and thank you. BEth is also nosy and would like an update. beergut
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jul 1, 2015 4:13:40 GMT -5
Andi is nosy and would like an update. Please and thank you. Sorry, my posting gets a lot more sporadic when I'm on vacation. Updates: I thought the extra expenses when she was in College Station was because of hotel fees. It apparently was because she went clothes shopping with the 17 yr old and the 15 yr old. So much for 'doing better'. We left for Connecticut last Thursday, arrived back in Dallas Monday. Family arrived back today, so yesterday was last night of house-sitting. The club team 15 yr old is on was disbanded, but coach for another more well-established club team is looking at her. Difference in costs between previous team and this team is roughly another $100 a month, if not more. So instead of trying to find ways to cut back on the spending, she has found another way to spend yet more money. We're going over her budget with a fine tooth comb this week. I'm sick of this. edit to tag andi9899 and Wisconsin Beth
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 1, 2015 6:37:00 GMT -5
I agree with the suggestions that when you meet to go over the budget this week that you change your contribution from food/vacations to a set monthly amount for rent and utilities. As long as she sees "fun" as your responsibility there will be few limits on the "fun."
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 1, 2015 6:56:44 GMT -5
It is so rare that people actually change.
It is so often that we think they will and then spend a lifetime waiting for it to happen.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 1, 2015 7:12:10 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Beer. There's an old saying, "Is the f-ing you get, worth the f-ing you get?" Only you can decide that but I agree on the set amount and sit back and watch how she does. I think what you were paying to support yourself before is a good plan. It should certainly make a huge difference in her expenses as opposed to you paying for food and extras. If she can't make it on that, think long and hard over this. You can be a part of her life and her children's without marrying her. Marrying her with these habits will only bring you grief. If you tell her marriage is off the table because of her spending issues, she can fake it until you do marry her and then the fun begins.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 1, 2015 7:13:33 GMT -5
Plus, she lied. Ugh, having been married to a compulsive liar, this is a very bad sign. He was also a compulsive spender. Still is but not my problem anymore.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 1, 2015 7:49:50 GMT -5
So did you assume it was hotel stuff or did she imply? Though I guess if she used the term incidental fees then it's just a straight up lie.
Man, this is going to be tough because the only way you can see the big picture is if she opens up all her accounts to you vs showing you a budget that's probably not real.
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