lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Jul 3, 2015 8:42:48 GMT -5
Yikes, this one got ugly. So we've established that the relationship is worth continuing, but they have issues with money and what commitment means. She's got some serious problems with impulse control on spending and it's hard to see her "incidentals" terminology as anything other than spin doctoring. Their respective contributions to the household need to be clarified (although seriously, she makes good money and receives child support; she ought to expect and be able to cover clothing expenses for her children). She wants to get married; he's not willing to as long as he feels he's being used as the financial backup plan. Go get counseling. Seriously. A lot of churches require engaged couples to go through a short counseling series that includes how money is to be set up; something like that might be apropos or at least a good starting point. I don't think your problems are insurmountable but I think it's going to be a lot easier and less frustrating to work through them with a neutral third part to mediate. It also sounds like she's either unwilling or unable to change her spending mindset on her own, maybe a professional can help. Thanks for keeping us posted, good luck!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 8:48:02 GMT -5
Yeah, if she is as horrible as everyone is saying, I'm not sure why he doesn't run fast and hard.
I also don't see why beer has not once commented on the point made by many regarding paying for everyday things versus extras...
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 3, 2015 8:48:32 GMT -5
Yes. You should not ask. The best thing to do is stuff down your feelings of resentment and inferiority and let them color your later realtionships with your siblings and parents. That is the right thing to do in this situation. I don't think that's what I said. There is a difference between being treated fairly and being raised to feel entitled.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 9:00:47 GMT -5
Hey mom. I thought you said camps like that were not in our budget, that you would love to send us but just didn't have the money? But C is going now? Does that mean I can go to?
I'm sorry. I still don't have the money to send you.
But C gets to go? ... And you just got back from a vacation... But there is no money to send me to camp?
I'm sorry. I wish I could, but its just not in the budget.
I don't understand why an exception was made for C but not for the rest of us?
....
Do you have siblings? It isn't about entitlement to have things... It's about being entitled to feel equally loved by and considerd valued by and treated equitably by your parents.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 3, 2015 9:14:27 GMT -5
.... Do you have siblings? It isn't about entitlement to have things... It's about being entitled to feel equally loved by and considerd valued by and treated equitably by your parents. My kids are not treated equitably. But, I think that's OK with them. My oldest (11) talks about buying our house when we pass away. My next oldest (7) then pipes up and says she'll buy a house on the same block. The peanut is the first to cheer on her older siblings. In some respects, I treat the kids the same. We all have chores to do. We all have to abide by the same household rules (no hitting, spitting, screaming.) We expect them to do their best with what they do. Some rights and privileges are bestowed at a certain age. Gum chewing, was age 3 for all the kids. It doesn't mean we expect them to be all A students, or make the tournament team with sports. We just ask that they live up to their potential. That's it. I would drive myself nuts making sure all the kids were treated equal all the time. How do I make life equal between an 11 yo and a 3 yo?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 9:19:42 GMT -5
Equitably is not equally. It is certainly possible to keep things equitable in a household with children of very different ages.
We are talking about children of very similar in age and ability in the OP.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 3, 2015 9:20:43 GMT -5
Hey mom. I thought you said camps like that were not in our budget, that you would love to send us but just didn't have the money? But C is going now? Does that mean I can go to? I'm sorry. I still don't have the money to send you. But C gets to go? ... And you just got back from a vacation... But there is no money to send me to camp? I'm sorry. I wish I could, but its just kit in the budget. I don't understand why an exception was made for C but not for the rest of us? .... Do you have siblings? It isn't about entitlement to have things... It's about being entitled to feel equally loved by and considerd valued by and treated equitably by your parents. I do have a sibling. I also have multiple children. But, as given in your example, I don't go blowing money that could be used for my kids either. Thing 1 has been in choir throughout high school. They took a trip every year that usually cost me about $700. Are you suggesting that I should have given Thing 2 $700 as well because Thing 1 got something of value? Or should I have taken Thing 2 on a trip too because her sister got to go on one? That was not going to happen. They are old enough at 15 & 17 to understand that life isn't always fair. I don't see how coddling them is doing them any good.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 3, 2015 9:24:54 GMT -5
Hey mom. I thought you said camps like that were not in our budget, that you would love to send us but just didn't have the money? But C is going now? Does that mean I can go to? I'm sorry. I still don't have the money to send you. But C gets to go? ... And you just got back from a vacation... But there is no money to send me to camp? I'm sorry. I wish I could, but its just kit in the budget. I don't understand why an exception was made for C but not for the rest of us? .... Do you have siblings? It isn't about entitlement to have things... It's about being entitled to feel equally loved by and considerd valued by and treated equitably by your parents. Seriously? My kids never want the same thing, whatever it is. They each have different interests. So just because we bought a violin for DD1, we must also purchase one for all the others? But DD3 hated orchestra, is much more interested in chorus - no instrument to buy there - do we find something to spend an equal amount on, say lessons or whatever to make it fair? What about DS2 who plays bass? His instrument is an order of magnitude more expensive. What about DS5, who is 14 years younger? Do sibs only get the matching "thing" when they reach the same age? Will they even remember by then? Way, way too complicated and bureaucratic to attempt to make things "fair" in this way. We learned early on to explain and teach the kids that "fair" was a nice concept in games, but life was never really fair, and they would only be making themselves upset looking for fairness. We've tried to instill an appreciation for the good things in their lives, and gratitude for generosity, not expectations that they are owed things. Love is one thing they know they have in abundance, but money and things do not equal love.
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Deleted
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Gah!!!
Jul 3, 2015 9:32:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 9:32:55 GMT -5
It isn't the same thing. It's an equitable thing. I don't think the girls are going to the same camp. Just equitable ones.
The second child obviously DID want something if equitable value.., which mom could not provide on her own.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Jul 3, 2015 9:38:04 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between:
Kid 1 gets a new pair of shoes, you don't need a new pair of shoes, so you're not getting one, and
Kid 1 gets to go to an expensive camp but you don't because we can't afford it.
It would be one thing if kid 2 didn't want to go to a camp, but you can't heavily favor one child over another.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 3, 2015 9:50:03 GMT -5
It isn't the same thing. It's an equitable thing. I don't think the girls are going to the same camp. Just equitable ones. The second child obviously DID want something if equitable value.., which mom could not provide on her own. We really don't know if the second child really wanted to go to camp or was just asking for something because the first child got something. It sounded to me like the latter. I have to go back and see if I can find the post.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 3, 2015 9:56:18 GMT -5
I thought beer said that HE heard about the camp and thought it would be perfect for kid1, so paid for it. Later kid2 brought her camp flyer to him, presumably hoping he'd also pay for hers. Didn't think kid1 initiated things, at least from beer's version of the story.
First off, these are not beer's kids, he doesn't have to be fair in the same way a parent might want to make things fair. If my DS2's godparents gift him something big, they don't need to be fair to the other kids. And I don't need to even things up, either. The kids realize it is a gift, and are happy for the recipient, not pouting that life isn't fair. Next time the shoe will be on the other foot. And the kids share things, a lot. Good fortune for one is often good fortune for all. They also hand things down to one another.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 3, 2015 10:02:08 GMT -5
I don't understand how you think he is showing respect that she is not reciprocating I guess.... How much did those camps cost? And he pays for those, not considering what other expenses might be brought up by the camp, and while ignoring the fact that the living room is unusable to the family for a good part of the day because there is no lighting. Telling her the camps are essential to him, but she should sit in the dark until she can save up the money. I don't know. I don't see anything equal in how he is setting up finances. I think he's setting it up to fail. And he has not once commented about why he doesn't pay a portion of the regular bills versus deciding on what are the "important" extras and paying for those... I take it you've never been in Texas in the Spring or Summer? We get 12-14 hours of sunlight this time of year, which means the living room would be usable to anyone who wants to hang out there. Fact is, the only time people really use the living room is to watch television at night, at which time they have the lights off. There is a ceiling fan with a light that gives off plenty of light if used, but she wanted lamps she could put at either end of the couch. I'm not sure where you got this idea about the camps? I asked the 15 yr old over a year ago if she'd be interested in going to the camp, because I knew she liked soocer. Since I told her a year ago I would send her to this camp, I paid for it. I believe if you say you're going to do something, you need to do it. The 17 yr old came to me and showed me the brochure for the camp she wanted to go to. Again, this wasn't me or my 'needs', this was something she wanted to do. I knew it was something she really wanted to do and was integral to what she is doing in her extracurricular activities in school, so I agreed to pay for it. To me this sounds like the first child wanted to go to the camp. When the second child saw that their sibling got something, they wanted something. After all, that's the way it works, 2 of everything. Right? So the second child went and found something for them so that it could be "fair" since that's the way they were raised. I will admit that I have fairly spoiled children. However, neither of them feels entitled to get something or ask for something just because the other got something. In my house, hard work and good behavior are rewarded. Not simply being a child with a sibling that got something.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jul 3, 2015 10:20:11 GMT -5
I take it you've never been in Texas in the Spring or Summer? We get 12-14 hours of sunlight this time of year, which means the living room would be usable to anyone who wants to hang out there. Fact is, the only time people really use the living room is to watch television at night, at which time they have the lights off. There is a ceiling fan with a light that gives off plenty of light if used, but she wanted lamps she could put at either end of the couch. I'm not sure where you got this idea about the camps? I asked the 15 yr old over a year ago if she'd be interested in going to the camp, because I knew she liked soocer. Since I told her a year ago I would send her to this camp, I paid for it. I believe if you say you're going to do something, you need to do it. The 17 yr old came to me and showed me the brochure for the camp she wanted to go to. Again, this wasn't me or my 'needs', this was something she wanted to do. I knew it was something she really wanted to do and was integral to what she is doing in her extracurricular activities in school, so I agreed to pay for it. To me this sounds like the first child wanted to go to the camp. When the second child saw that their sibling got something, they wanted something. After all, that's the way it works, 2 of everything. Right? So the second child went and found something for them so that it could be "fair" since that's the way they were raised. I will admit that I have fairly spoiled children. However, neither of them feels entitled to get something or ask for something just because the other got something. In my house, hard work and good behavior are rewarded. Not simply being a child with a sibling that got something. I'm not as clear on kid2's motivation here. I read it as kid2 thought, well if beer is paying for kid1's camp, maybe he'll pay for mine, too. I can at least ask. I really wouldn't want my kids asking for something more than nominal from anyone but us, but we have tried to convince them that you generally don't get things you don't ask for. You can always ask. The other person can always say no. Don't take it personally, just move on. If you really want something, there is more than one way to obtain it - depending on what that thing is: make it yourself, borrow it, find it online, save up to buy it yourself...
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jul 3, 2015 10:38:33 GMT -5
I don't find fault with the kids but I am in agreement with some other posters that they shouldn't be asking in the first place and that is a reflection on their mother. He's been in their lives for a year, he may have affection for the children that is reciprocated but he's not their stepfather. Their lives don't appear to be particularly well integrated beyond the fact that he lives in their house.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 3, 2015 11:39:27 GMT -5
Beer I am not sure how to write this but to my mind the biggest problem with your joint finances is you think you are right. This just isn't a black or white issue. You really don't like her spending $100 on a lamp when a $5 one from Walmart would work just fine in your opinion. (for the record $100 on a lamp isn't expensive it just isn't dirt cheap) She may spend $300 on clothes for the kids when to you the ones she would throw out are just fine. You said you have to push her to go on vacations without the kids. You also said you spent a small fortune on a trip to see family in CT, which I think you alluded that it was your family though and not hers. That is because it is important to you. You value that experience and are willing to spend a good amount of money to get it. Personally I would rather spend one less day in a hotel than have to spend every other day of the year looking at some ugly ass cheap pole lamp every time I walk in or through my living room. But I understand others don't. In this case neither of you is right. Or wrong for that matter. It is just that you are different. The real problem IMO is that this difference isn't discussed with each other. A real discussion would have to involve real numbers of what everything costs and what each brings to the table. Then and only then can you have an honest respectful discussion of what is a "good" use of your household resources that you both can agree on.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jul 3, 2015 11:51:07 GMT -5
Personally I would rather spend one less day in a hotel than have to spend every other day of the year looking at some ugly ass cheap pole lamp every time I walk in or through my living room. But I understand others don't. About 5 years ago I spent around $700 for a table lamp and floor lamp from Restoration Hardware. I had coveted them for about 3 years while trying to find a cheaper option. When they went on sale (would have been around $1,000) I bought them and it was a happy day when I took the Home Depot Floor Lamp and Target table lamp to Goodwill. I am not an extravagant person but sometimes you just have to spend money to get something you love. I was tired of our nicely furnished living room having dorm room lamps! Yes, I know Beer's girlfriend couldn't afford to buy the lamps ...
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 3, 2015 12:16:39 GMT -5
Personally I would rather spend one less day in a hotel than have to spend every other day of the year looking at some ugly ass cheap pole lamp every time I walk in or through my living room. But I understand others don't. About 5 years ago I spent around $700 for a table lamp and floor lamp from Restoration Hardware. I had coveted them for about 3 years while trying to find a cheaper option. When they went on sale (would have been around $1,000) I bought them and it was a happy day when I took the Home Depot Floor Lamp and Target table lamp to Goodwill. I am not an extravagant person but sometimes you just have to spend money to get something you love. I was tired of our nicely furnished living room having dorm room lamps! Yes, I know Beer's girlfriend couldn't afford to buy the lamps ... I'm all for splurging every now and then to get something you like. Hell, I just traded in a perfectly good car to get a newer one. But you have to be able to pay for the things you splurge on and can't expect others to get them for you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 12:20:12 GMT -5
But again, NONE of her things desired seem to get to be priorities. The money beer saves by living with her seems to go all to his priorities. She is actually incurring more expenses due to how he chooses to indulge the girls. And any wants she might have are back burnered.
Thus why it makes more sense to split everyday bills and give them both a cushion to save for their own priorities.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 3, 2015 12:34:10 GMT -5
But again, NONE of her things desired seem to get to be priorities. The money beer saves by living with her seems to go all to his priorities. She is actually incurring more expenses due to how he chooses to indulge the girls. And any wants she might have are back burnered. Thus why it makes more sense to split everyday bills and give them both a cushion to save for their own priorities. I beg to differ. She wanted lamps he paid for them against his will. She wanted to go on vacation she had no business spending money on and he paid for it. She wanted to go shopping for clothes she couldn't afford and she told him it was for something else and he paid for it. How are her desires being put on the back burner? And. News flash. When you're a parent, your kids automatically take priority over your desires. But yes, you are correct in saying that they need to figure out an equitable split of every day bills so that each can have extra money to do with what they want.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 3, 2015 12:40:04 GMT -5
If it was truly "against his will," I doubt he would have done it. She wasn't facing homelessness, or having her utilities cut off, or anything more dire than having to come home from camp a bit early. Obviously the best long-term solution is to figure out a spending plan that will make them both happy, but if she asks him for money for something that he will later describe as annoying, frivolous, etc., he has the power (and every right) to say no. YMMV. I'm just not a fan of the "say yes but then complain about it later" approach. That's because you value "things" over experiences and you're going to YM hell
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 3, 2015 12:48:25 GMT -5
He said earlier she got rid of her credit cards to try and get her spending under control. So she probably needed some of that money to pay for hotel, food, or gas back home after spending 200 on a lamp and 300 on clothes.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jul 3, 2015 13:07:09 GMT -5
I think that without further information, there is nothing wrong with the girl showing him a camp flyer. We don't know their established household dynamic. If he complained about it, then we would have a better idea.
Just because he is not married, doesn't mean he is not taking the role of an involved adult. Parents are not the only people you can ask for things in every family. Growing up, I would have felt fine asking my grandparents for something. I hope that my son and any other children I have grow up with that same comfort level. Of course, it is also important to accept "no" for an answer. People who care about my kid can't read his mind: they might be happy to do something for him but won't be able to unless he asks.
There is nothing wrong with the kids asking things unless Beer doesn't like the dynamic. People get to establish the relationships and dynamics in their household in a way that is comfortable for them. If he was married to her after a year would it be different? Maybe for some people, but maybe not for them: he did move into a household with minor children without being married to their mother.
Also, some of you would be pissed if your kid asked a non-parental adult for something. That's OK:I'd be pissed if someone offered a child of mine an expensive gift without consulting me, and would simply not allow a pricey gift to one and overlooking the other. I would be OK with my kid making a request of an adult that is a big part of their lives, as long as they can accept "no" gracefully. That's how you do your family, and how I do mine. These girls aren't your kids: what is OK with them just has to be OK with the kids, their mother, and beergut. I don't think he complained about the girl asking, he just has issues with how the mother handles money.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Gah!!!
Jul 3, 2015 15:21:47 GMT -5
Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jul 3, 2015 15:21:47 GMT -5
It sounds like kid2 asking for the camp was within the framework of their relationship. It doesn't sound like she asked just because her sister got to go to camp. It sounds like Beer found a camp for her sister and offered that. Maybe he wasn't looking for 1 for kid2 but would have happily paid if he knew it existed. She just brought it to his attention.
It's hard to offer something to someone if you don't know it exists. How many times have you heard or thought "I'd love to get something nice for X but I don't know what they want?". That's why registries exist.
This sounds like kid 2 was just letting Beer know what she was interested in and hoping she would get to go to the camp she was interested in
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 15:56:38 GMT -5
I guess I will have to figure out what lessons I am teaching the grandkids. We've always had an understanding that if mom can't afford something for them, that they could ask me (as long as it is not toys, which mom has banned). They are pretty respectful about requests.
Other than cookies or candy at the grocery store and clothes, I can't think of much that they ask for.
I offered to pay for camp for them this year if they were interested, but I think the difference when I offer is that I include all the materials and costs. So camp fee, any special clothes/gear, snacks, spending money if there is a snack shack, transportation. DD does not have extra money for this stuff, so offering JUST to pay the camp fee would actually cause her extra expense she can't cover.
Swim Lessons: I purchased the swimsuits + mandatory tee shirts. I also purchased & organized the snacks into ziplocks per day ahead of time to simplify.
Ballet Camp: I purchased the gear & ballet bag (not mandatory, but desired). Kids know we go to the consignment store first to check if they have the items we need. In this case they did, so fully outfitted for $21. SCORE!!
Drama Camp: Not sure what this is going to require. Maybe costume contributions or something like that. Snacks & lunch will need to be covered too.
Not Saying that beer's situation is exactly the same because GF made some compounding decisions. However, if beer has not been a parent before, he may not realize that there are additional expenses to camps that he may have wanted to think about and discuss with them first. I would guess that now he knows for next time.
And I must be a guy . . . I would buy the stupid $8 lamps at Target if I didn't have money & needed them. Or I would be asking on freecycle who had lamps to give away (I'd actually ask for the free ones first if I was going to have ugly ones anyhow).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 17:35:41 GMT -5
When I first explained how imo his buying all the groceries may not have the impact on her budget that he thinks and how taking her on vacations may be causing her to spend money she might not have spent otherwise, he said that was good food for thought. So I don't think he's dug his heels in and refused to consider doing things differently.
I don't think it's bad that Beer is willing to give his GF's kids opportunities to do things they might not have been able to do if he wasn't around. I think it's nice. For MY boyfriend and MY kids, the requests and offers would need to come to me first. That's all I'm saying. I don't even think the GF is a gold-digger or whatever. It sounds like she just never learned to manage her money well because she hasn't had to. She's always had someone to back her up whenever something unexpected happened. That's where things are going to get sticky with their relationship, because partners are suppose to back each other up, but she has to learn that she can't just make messes and expect Beer to clean them up for her.
And as far as the posters saying that Beer is the kids' stepdad, I disagree. Being Mom's boyfriend for a year and moving in doesn't automatically mean a man is taking on the full role of stepdad. Just my opinion.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on Jul 3, 2015 17:44:45 GMT -5
When I first explained how imo his buying all the groceries may not have the impact on her budget that he thinks and how taking her on vacations may be causing her to spend money she might not have spent otherwise, he said that was good food for thought. So I don't think he's dug his heels in and refused to consider doing things differently.
I don't think it's bad that Beer is willing to give his GF's kids opportunities to do things they might not have been able to do if he wasn't around. I think it's nice. For MY boyfriend and MY kids, the requests and offers would need to come to me first. That's all I'm saying. I don't even think the GF is a gold-digger or whatever. It sounds like she just never learned to manage her money well because she hasn't had to. She's always had someone to back her up whenever something unexpected happened. That's where things are going to get sticky with their relationship, because partners are suppose to back each other up, but she has to learn that she can't just make messes and expect Beer to clean them up for her.
I think Pink described the situation very well. GF may not know how to effectively manage for contingencies, including having the backup funds for unexpected expenses. It sounds like she is open to learning, though. And BeerG sounds like he is open to learning more about the real expenses for raising teenagers.
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beergut
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Gah!!!
Jul 4, 2015 5:07:21 GMT -5
Post by beergut on Jul 4, 2015 5:07:21 GMT -5
You were going to see her family in Connecticut? No, my family.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Jul 4, 2015 6:06:13 GMT -5
Just some notes: - We've been together for over a year and a half. - I was a student athletic trainer in HS like the 17 yr old is currently. She wants to make a career out of being an athletic trainer, which I did at one time before finding a different path that interested me more my senior year. The private HS I went to paid to send me to an athletic training camp at a local college so I could learn everything there is to know about working as an athletic trainer. 17 yr old and 15 yr old go to the local public HS, and they don't pay for anything. I sent her to the athletic training camp in part because I wanted her to have a similar experience to the one I had when I was her age. - GF pays for plenty of 'fun' stuff for the kids. 15 yr old plays club soccer, which GF pays for, and took some modeling classes last Summer, which she also paid for. 17 yr old is in competitive shooting, and GF buys the bullets, pays the entry fees to the competitions, etc. One of the reasons GF says she has budgeting issues is because the kids always have little expenses for their extra-curriculars that come up unexpectedly. - GF and her ex-husband/father of the kids have been divorced 9-10 years now. Ex pays child support, and has little else to do with the kids. Don't get me started on him, he pretty much disgusts me. I give him credit for paying child support, but I think he has completely abdicated his responsibility as a father. When HS events like homecoming and prom come up for the two girls, he contributes nothing to the extra costs. So GF has a choice of either letting her kids go without, or biting the bullet and trying to find a way to make those events special for her kids. - Regarding buying clothes for the girls, they both have a TON of clothes. I don't require they wear out their old clothes or throw them away when they get new clothes, I'm not insane. I figure I'll never understand the female mind when it comes to clothes, so I'm not going to try. - zibazinski Saying "I'll bet the kids have seen her have sex with a boyfriend" is really a despicable statement that you have no basis for making. GF is actually incredibly private, and sleeps in shorts and a t-shirt at all times, just in case the kids need to come into her room at some point during the night. -@rockit Not sure why you assume I wouldn't know all of the expenses that would go with going to these camps. I researched them before paying anything, and made sure everything was provided for.
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zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
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Gah!!!
Jul 4, 2015 8:29:13 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Jul 4, 2015 8:29:13 GMT -5
Well, then time to sit down and come up with a workable budget. Unexpected things happen and for her not to have $500 to cover them is shameful. To have to ask you for money should be shameful and you shouldn't put her in that spot. Ever. i didn't mean actively seeing her have sex but other boyfriend surely spent the night like you do. Closed doors or not, kids aren't stupid.
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