Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 14:14:56 GMT -5
Caitlyn's decision to be so public about her transition was probably in large part because she was so public. It's not like she can hide under a rock and only have those nearest and dearest to her know. Many people don't know anyone who is transgendered. They have no idea what that struggle is like. The very fact that I see more people talking about the struggle of transition than hurling insults leads me to believe she made the right decision. I highly doubt Bruce Jenner posing in lingerie is going to convince anyone not already on your side of the argument to go there. I've been giving some thought to a hypothetical: I suppose I wasn't married and I woke up tomorrow, looked in the mirror, and saw a woman staring back at me. And after a lengthy talk with my parents, work colleagues, doctors, psychiatrist, etc., I discovered that I'd hit my head and it had caused me to imagine my masculinity. All of my life's experiences in which I distinctly remember being a man, looking like a man, etc., were figments of my imagination, and in reality I was a woman. The clothes in my dresser were women's clothes. Everyone I knew knew me as a woman. It was only my memory and my strong sense of male identity that are as they are now. I would obviously be shocked and upset by this. But after considering the matter carefully, I've come to conclude with cold certainty that my response would be to accept reality, embrace what I had, and continue to live life as a woman. I wouldn't go out dating, obviously, but I'd wear my clothes, put on my makeup, carry my purse, maintain my female friendships, and do my best to carry on. I'd no doubt make a crummy woman in many respects, but that would continue to be my reality. I cannot imagine deciding "Screw reality. I'm Virgil." and dressing like a man, cutting my hair short, shooting up with steroids, etc. as though this would somehow remedy the problem. Moreover, I can't imagine wanting to become the physical individual I am now so desperately that I would mutilate my body, pump myself full of hormones, etc. just so that after all the cutting and drugging was done, I'd have a cheap, scarred facsimile of my current (male) body. It wouldn't be real. Neither my memories of being male, nor my strong identification as male, nor any amount of drugs or surgery would make it real. I'd have to be delusional to go through with it. I'd have to be so traumatized by my femininity that it overwhelmed my sense of reason and convinced me that I could become "Virgil" again by sheer power of will. I'd have to be convinced it was worth sacrificing all of the good things I had to claim that fiction. As for going on TV, and posing on the cover of a magazine in the middle of all this? Insanity. Pure insanity. I'd have to be insane. I wouldn't do it for a hundred million dollars. Perhaps that's why I'm less than sympathetic to Mr. Jenner's plight. I cannot for the life of me understand why any rational person would do what he's doing, and nobody here has suggested any justification besides "he has aberrant brain chemistry". Aberrant Brain chemistry by no means makes an irrational desire into a rational one.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 2, 2015 14:27:56 GMT -5
There's a lot of things in life I don't understand. I understand things from an academic perspective, but I don't "get" it. It doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic. I can't imagine, not being sympathetic towards my own husband, because I don't get his struggles. And, he didn't get mine. If he wasn't interested in being sympathetic to my struggles, well, why the hell would I want to marry him? It just means that I've come to the conclusion that there ARE things I don't get. And it's not worth my time and effort to try to "get" them, because I don't like going like this . However, I do feel that just because I don't "get" it doesn't mean I can't be empathetic or sympathetic. It doesn't invalidate the other person because I don't get them. It just means I'm wired differently.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Jun 2, 2015 14:35:55 GMT -5
On a different but similar note, there seems to be a trend where I live for girls and young women to cut their hair very short and dress like boys. Meaning saggy pants with boxers showing. Some of them have feminine facial features, but sometimes the only way you can tell is because they have breasts. I see them often enough that I've gotten kind of use to it. It almost seems like it's a fad.
A few weeks ago, I was at a kids' birthday party and saw what looked like another girl dressed like a boy. But I ended up standing next to her outside, and saw a beard. Now, that, I hadn't seen before and I was confused and trying not to stare while my brain tried to process what I was seeing. A beard and breasts don't match on a young lady.
I asked DD about it (she keeps me up-to-date on what young folks are doing) and she said a lot of girls that dress like that have started taking testosterone and she's seen them with beards before. I don't know what to think about that. What an odd trend. They are going to regret those beards later. What doctor is handing out all that testosterone to young girls?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 14:37:13 GMT -5
I don't think Caitlyn Jenner is asking for sympathy. Empathy, however, I'm sure would be welcome. Some, however, don't have the ability to feel empathy.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 2, 2015 14:38:21 GMT -5
I don't think Caitlyn Jenner is asking for sympathy. Empathy, however, I'm sure would be welcome. Some, however, don't have the ability to feel empathy. maybe there is surgery for that.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 14:39:29 GMT -5
I don't think Caitlyn Jenner is asking for sympathy. Empathy, however, I'm sure would be welcome. Some, however, don't have the ability to feel empathy. maybe there is surgery for that. I think there's an app for that.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 14:40:24 GMT -5
I don't think Caitlyn Jenner is asking for sympathy. Empathy, however, I'm sure would be welcome. Some, however, don't have the ability to feel empathy. maybe there is surgery for that. Not at this time, unfortunately. Perhaps, as we learn more about the brain and how it operates there will come a time when things like this can be corrected.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 15:42:32 GMT -5
On a different but similar note, there seems to be a trend where I live for girls and young women to cut their hair very short and dress like boys. Meaning saggy pants with boxers showing. Some of them have feminine facial features, but sometimes the only way you can tell is because they have breasts. I see them often enough that I've gotten kind of use to it. It almost seems like it's a fad.
A few weeks ago, I was at a kids' birthday party and saw what looked like another girl dressed like a boy. But I ended up standing next to her outside, and saw a beard. Now, that, I hadn't seen before and I was confused and trying not to stare while my brain tried to process what I was seeing. A beard and breasts don't match on a young lady.
I asked DD about it (she keeps me up-to-date on what young folks are doing) and she said a lot of girls that dress like that have started taking testosterone and she's seen them with beards before. I don't know what to think about that. What an odd trend. They are going to regret those beards later. What doctor is handing out all that testosterone to young girls? I agree, it is odd. I wondered too how they were getting the testosterone.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2015 15:56:19 GMT -5
The reason for increased suicide rates after transition seems pretty obvious to me. Up until one transitions you look how society expects, while you probably hear nasty things about transgender people it's directed at other people, not you. It's only recently that it's being addressed before puberty so almost everyone transitions after adulthood where their body fully grew into the opposite gender. That alone makes it hard to completely look like the right gender without even touching the fact that a lot of them don't have tens of thousands of dollars to get a lot of work done. So you may be finally living as the gender you see yourself as but now the nasty comments are directed at you if your transition wasn't seamless. Now instead of hearing people saying transgender should kill themselves they are telling you to go kill yourself. That is one thing that does really bother me. Some parents are even labeling their kid transgendered as early as 2 years old or even younger. I have no idea how you can know that about someone that young. Kids go through phases.
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fatbear
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Post by fatbear on Jun 2, 2015 15:59:16 GMT -5
On a different but similar note, there seems to be a trend where I live for girls and young women to cut their hair very short and dress like boys. Meaning saggy pants with boxers showing. Some of them have feminine facial features, but sometimes the only way you can tell is because they have breasts. I see them often enough that I've gotten kind of use to it. It almost seems like it's a fad.
A few weeks ago, I was at a kids' birthday party and saw what looked like another girl dressed like a boy. But I ended up standing next to her outside, and saw a beard. Now, that, I hadn't seen before and I was confused and trying not to stare while my brain tried to process what I was seeing. A beard and breasts don't match on a young lady.
I asked DD about it (she keeps me up-to-date on what young folks are doing) and she said a lot of girls that dress like that have started taking testosterone and she's seen them with beards before. I don't know what to think about that. What an odd trend. They are going to regret those beards later. What doctor is handing out all that testosterone to young girls? They probably aren't getting it legally via prescription.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jun 2, 2015 16:22:25 GMT -5
It's all different for different people. My best friend is in a polyamorous relationship, it's not about sex. She is feminine looking. I have friends who dress like males, but are women. I don't try to understand it I just accept it. My crowd is as varied as the world.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 2, 2015 16:36:28 GMT -5
The reason for increased suicide rates after transition seems pretty obvious to me. Up until one transitions you look how society expects, while you probably hear nasty things about transgender people it's directed at other people, not you. It's only recently that it's being addressed before puberty so almost everyone transitions after adulthood where their body fully grew into the opposite gender. That alone makes it hard to completely look like the right gender without even touching the fact that a lot of them don't have tens of thousands of dollars to get a lot of work done. So you may be finally living as the gender you see yourself as but now the nasty comments are directed at you if your transition wasn't seamless. Now instead of hearing people saying transgender should kill themselves they are telling you to go kill yourself. That is one thing that does really bother me. Some parents are even labeling their kid transgendered as early as 2 years old or even younger. I have no idea how you can know that about someone that young. Kids go through phases.
While I don't agree with labeling a 2 year old, transgendered is more than a phase. Phases for a 2 year old mean not sleeping well for a month, not eating peas (ok that is my 2 year old all the time), and this week we are puzzle obsessed vs book obsessed. Who she is, is not a phase. She fills the room with joy, that has been constant since day 1. DS is more reserved. He always has been. Those aren't phases. Just as transgendered shouldn't just be called a phase. Who would willingly put themselves through that?
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 2, 2015 17:06:07 GMT -5
If I were trans and read this thread I certainly wouldn't feel very safe and accepted as an equal human being. there is one person being a little over the top and a couple more people expressing disagreement - none of them violent and most of them are not condemning. Most people are supportive or apathetic. How is that creating an unwelcoming environment? Since when does anything get 100% support and acceptance (other than babies or kids battling some sort of terminal disease)? Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 17:11:46 GMT -5
I do not understand Virgil's argument. Aren't hermaphrdites (who knows how to spell that) a real thing? If they are then how can he argue that some people are born with messed up sexual identities? He also said, I believe, that no one has benefited from Caitlyn Jenner's public journey. There is no way he could know that. Maybe some hermaphdite did. Also is he arguing that sexuality is not in the brain? I mean can you look at a brain with whatever it is that looks at brains and tell if it is a woman or a man? I know most men have bigger brains but there could be exceptions so that is not 100% reliable, but surely something else might be. Just kidding about brain size
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 17:18:27 GMT -5
I became more liberal on things like this for a combination of two things. I can't control what my children or grandchildren will do on something like this and I would never want to be against them on something like this. The other thing is that sometimes, and I know this will be hard to believe, but sometimes I am not as smart as I like to think I am and am wrong.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 17:19:01 GMT -5
there is one person being a little over the top and a couple more people expressing disagreement - none of them violent and most of them are not condemning. Most people are supportive or apathetic. How is that creating an unwelcoming environment? Since when does anything get 100% support and acceptance (other than babies or kids battling some sort of terminal disease)? Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance. When I started dating now X, I got looks - presumably because I'm black and he's white. At first I was reluctant to do things like hold his hand or kiss him in public for fear of what people may think or say. But then I realized that most people either didn't care or were okay with it, and I wasn't going to worry about the opinions of those that weren't. There will always be people who disagree, and if they're not harming you, screw them and keep doing you.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 17:28:02 GMT -5
there is one person being a little over the top and a couple more people expressing disagreement - none of them violent and most of them are not condemning. Most people are supportive or apathetic. How is that creating an unwelcoming environment? Since when does anything get 100% support and acceptance (other than babies or kids battling some sort of terminal disease)? Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance. But have you noticed that derogatory comments have been made by people who demand tolerance and acceptance from others?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 17:33:14 GMT -5
Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance. When I started dating now X, I got looks - presumably because I'm black and he's white. At first I was reluctant to do things like hold his hand or kiss him in public for fear of what people may think or say. But then I realized that most people either didn't care or were okay with it, and I wasn't going to worry about the opinions of those that weren't. There will always be people who disagree, and if they're not harming you, screw them and keep doing you. When I was very young, I was dating a guy who was shorter than I am, and I am 5"1. I *thought* I was getting looks also, especially when we would go to clubs. But it wasn't his height or the perceived looks that made me brake up with him, it was his lack of money and stable job. Go fugure....
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fatbear
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Post by fatbear on Jun 2, 2015 17:39:06 GMT -5
there is one person being a little over the top and a couple more people expressing disagreement - none of them violent and most of them are not condemning. Most people are supportive or apathetic. How is that creating an unwelcoming environment? Since when does anything get 100% support and acceptance (other than babies or kids battling some sort of terminal disease)? Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance. Why is acceptance expected? In the beginning, there was a request for tolerance, which was very reasonable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 17:55:58 GMT -5
Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance. But have you noticed that derogatory comments have been made by people who demand tolerance and acceptance from others? Are you talking to me?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 18:02:42 GMT -5
Among a few others
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 18:05:25 GMT -5
Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance. But have you noticed that derogatory comments have been made by people who demand tolerance and acceptance from others? On this thread? I could be wrong, but I tend to be very tolerant of others even if our opinions differ, until or unless they belittle my beliefs and in this case lifestyle and it can be exhausting to filter through the outright hatred from certain posters and still have patience for the "that's weird/freaky/gross/etc...not that I care what you do in your own life" posts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 18:06:25 GMT -5
Can you quote please? Thanks.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 18:18:21 GMT -5
But have you noticed that derogatory comments have been made by people who demand tolerance and acceptance from others? On this thread? I could be wrong, but I tend to be very tolerant of others even if our opinions differ, until or unless they belittle my beliefs and in this case lifestyle and it can be exhausting to filter through the outright hatred from certain posters and still have patience for the "that's weird/freaky/gross/etc...not that I care what you do in your own life" posts. I don't know if it's bc this issue, among others, is not personal to me, but I don't "feel" the hatred. I feel/read not-understanding, unwillingness to try to understand, a lot of not caring, and yes, "that's gross/weird" sentiments, but none of that really translates to hatred. And no, I can't recall a single time, on this thread or any others, where you were not tolerant or rude to others. You usually are courteous and level headed, so kudos to you!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 18:20:03 GMT -5
My opinion is that Virgil is an ignorant person... It's so nice that we don't need facts to back up our opinions. here is one
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 18:20:40 GMT -5
On this thread? I could be wrong, but I tend to be very tolerant of others even if our opinions differ, until or unless they belittle my beliefs and in this case lifestyle and it can be exhausting to filter through the outright hatred from certain posters and still have patience for the "that's weird/freaky/gross/etc...not that I care what you do in your own life" posts. I don't know if it's bc this issue, among others, is not personal to me , but I don't "feel" the hatred.I feel/read not-understanding, unwillingness to try to understand, a lot of not caring, and yes, "that's gross/weird" sentiments, but none of that really translates to hatred. And no, I can't recall a single time, on this thread or any others, where you were not tolerant or rude to others. You usually are courteous and level headed, so kudos to you! Didn't one of the posters say she would be happy when another poster died?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 18:24:34 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary. here is another one
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 18:25:18 GMT -5
I don't know if it's bc this issue, among others, is not personal to me , but I don't "feel" the hatred.I feel/read not-understanding, unwillingness to try to understand, a lot of not caring, and yes, "that's gross/weird" sentiments, but none of that really translates to hatred. And no, I can't recall a single time, on this thread or any others, where you were not tolerant or rude to others. You usually are courteous and level headed, so kudos to you! Didn't one of the posters say she would be happy when another poster died? Yes, but it was toward the person who was on the other side of the issue
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 18:25:42 GMT -5
My opinion is that Virgil is an ignorant person... It's so nice that we don't need facts to back up our opinions. here is one It originally said "ass"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 18:32:25 GMT -5
Ignorant: unaware, lacking knowledge.
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