Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 18:33:31 GMT -5
I do not understand Virgil's argument. Aren't hermaphrdites (who knows how to spell that) a real thing? If they are then how can he argue that some people are born with messed up sexual identities? He also said, I believe, that no one has benefited from Caitlyn Jenner's public journey. There is no way he could know that. Maybe some hermaphdite did. Also is he arguing that sexuality is not in the brain? I mean can you look at a brain with whatever it is that looks at brains and tell if it is a woman or a man? I know most men have bigger brains but there could be exceptions so that is not 100% reliable, but surely something else might be. Just kidding about brain size Hermaphrodites are such from birth; the problem arises when the gender they're assigned isn't the gender manifested. The problem is typically discovered when the child is very young, and at that point, since the child has no strong history living as one gender, I can see the wisdom in parents correcting their mistake without much trauma to the child. Everything I've read suggests that the healthy child identifies exclusively as the new gender. Not as trans-male, or cis-male, or "genderqueer", or any other label that tries to import delusions of specialness or sexual ambiguity into the identity of the afflicted. The child grows up as male (female), identifies as such, acts as such, and is universally viewed as such. It's a non-issue. The vast majority of transgendered individuals aren't hermaphrodites. I can't remember the exact percentage that are, but it's small. More importantly, men and women who decide to "transition" later in life are dooming themselves to physical and emotional hell. They necessarily must import delusions of sexual ambiguity, because they've lived and grown up as one gender, they're known by that gender, all of their experiences are with that gender, and their physical body is of that gender. Not only do they have to tear that down to the foundations, they have to contend with the fact that their bodies don't care what their minds think. They have to throw away everything they've built up during their childhood and replace it with a cheap facsimile. They look awkward. They act awkward. People who knew them as their former gender have no clue how to treat them, and by the time they've hit adulthood there are thousands of such people. The transgendered individuals I've talked to at length (I've met all types while tutoring) clearly made it integral to their identity. They'd become one-dimensional caricatures. Something is so obviously wrong, people can't and won't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Some of them do it in order to feel special and to feel martyred; I won't speculate on what percentage that is. For those simply seeking normalcy, they won't find it. That's the grand irony. If they think surgery and drugs will fix the problem, they're deluding themselves. No doubt that's a large part of the reason suicide rates are sky high post-surgery. They craved normalcy, they threw away a perfectly good body to get it, and... well, crap... they're Bruce Jenner in drag on the cover of a magazine. You are special, Mr. Jenner. You're the first Olympic athlete who screwed the pooch for your fifteen minutes in drag on the cover of a magazine. You're a pathetic old fool, and good riddance to you when the glamour wears off.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 18:37:34 GMT -5
I think Virgil has certain values he believes and he is not going to abandon them if he can defend them logically and coherently. It is one of the reasons I like to read his posts so much. I think people would fare better arguing with him if they took SK's (I think) style. She (he?) seems well informed and posts what she (he?) knows and can back up. I think if she and Virgil were to get in a Socratic type argument Virgil would lose. My opinion for what its worth.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 18:42:10 GMT -5
Hickle, I said I'd be happy at the demise of the mindset...
The mindset that says " I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn" "... That perpetuates the idea that "it's harmful to them (see previous thread on the subject). It becomes harmful to you if the behaviour is peddled as normal, commendable, or even glamorous, and you're inspired to act on your own delusion."
and that considers anyone with a different opinion to just be giving "the politically correct response ... to respect the delusion."
I don't have to tolerate intolerance. I don't have to respect ignorance. I don't care if you think something is icky, weird or wrong. But don't expect me to sit back while you say that people, in our lives, on this board, on this thread, are dangerous, and delusional, and indicate that intervention should be taken least they infect the masses with their concepts that 'should not be glorified'.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 18:46:56 GMT -5
I do not understand Virgil's argument. Aren't hermaphrdites (who knows how to spell that) a real thing? If they are then how can he argue that some people are born with messed up sexual identities? He also said, I believe, that no one has benefited from Caitlyn Jenner's public journey. There is no way he could know that. Maybe some hermaphdite did. Also is he arguing that sexuality is not in the brain? I mean can you look at a brain with whatever it is that looks at brains and tell if it is a woman or a man? I know most men have bigger brains but there could be exceptions so that is not 100% reliable, but surely something else might be. Just kidding about brain size Hermaphrodites are such from birth; the problem arises when the gender they're assigned isn't the gender manifested. The problem is typically discovered when the child is very young, and at that point, since the child has no strong history living as one gender, I can see the wisdom in parents correcting their mistake without much trauma to the child. Everything I've read suggests that the healthy child identifies exclusively as the new gender. Not as trans-male, or cis-male, or "genderqueer", or any other label that tries to import delusions of specialness or sexual ambiguity into the identity of the afflicted. The child grows up as male (female), identifies as such, acts as such, and is universally viewed as such. It's a non-issue. The vast majority of transgendered individuals aren't hermaphrodites. I can't remember the exact percentage that are, but it's small. More importantly, men and women who decide to "transition" later in life are dooming themselves to physical and emotional hell. They necessarily must import delusions of sexual ambiguity, because they've lived and grown up as one gender, they're known by that gender, all of their experiences are with that gender, and their physical body is of that gender. Not only do they have to tear that down to the foundations, they have to contend with the fact that their bodies don't care what their minds think. They have to throw away everything they've built up during their childhood and replace it with a cheap facsimile. They look awkward. They act awkward. People who knew them as their former gender have no clue how to treat them, and by the time they've hit adulthood there are thousands of such people. The transgendered individuals I've talked to at length (I've met all types while tutoring) clearly made it integral to their identity. They'd become one-dimensional caricatures. Something is so obviously wrong, people can't and won't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Some of them do it in order to feel special and to feel martyred; I won't speculate on what percentage that is. For those simply seeking normalcy, they won't find it. That's the grand irony. If they think surgery and drugs will fix the problem, they're deluding themselves. No doubt that's a large part of the reason suicide rates are sky high post-surgery. They craved normalcy, they threw away a perfectly good body to get it, and... well, crap... they're Bruce Jenner in drag on the cover of a magazine. You are special, Mr. Jenner. You're the first Olympic athlete who screwed the pooch for your fifteen minutes in drag on the cover of a magazine. You're a pathetic old fool, and good riddance to you when the glamour wears off. Hermaphrodites are such from birth; so are trans people. Or so the argument goes. I believe them when they say so.
because they've lived and grown up as one gender I think they would argue that. I think they would argue that they grew up the wrong gender biologically, but always were the other gender. Of course, they have a great deal of confusion, because it is confusing. They look awkward. They act awkward. People who knew them as their former gender have no clue how to treat them, and by the time they've hit adulthood there are thousands of such people. The transgendered individuals I've talked to at length (I've met all types while tutoring) clearly made it integral to their identity. They'd become one-dimensional caricatures. Something is so obviously wrong, people can't and won't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room.
so? Lots of people are awkward? Some of them do it in order to feel special and to feel martyred;
So? Some people adopt religion to feel special an martyred, doesn't distract from the people who adopt it for the right reasons. Do you believe if you were a brain in a vat, you would be a male brain in a vat? Or an genderless brain in a vat?
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 15,015
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 18:52:26 GMT -5
I do not understand Virgil's argument. Aren't hermaphrdites (who knows how to spell that) a real thing? If they are then how can he argue that some people are born with messed up sexual identities? He also said, I believe, that no one has benefited from Caitlyn Jenner's public journey. There is no way he could know that. Maybe some hermaphdite did. Also is he arguing that sexuality is not in the brain? I mean can you look at a brain with whatever it is that looks at brains and tell if it is a woman or a man? I know most men have bigger brains but there could be exceptions so that is not 100% reliable, but surely something else might be. Just kidding about brain size Hermaphrodites are such from birth; the problem arises when the gender they're assigned isn't the gender manifested. The problem is typically discovered when the child is very young, and at that point, since the child has no strong history living as one gender, I can see the wisdom in parents correcting their mistake without much trauma to the child. Everything I've read suggests that the healthy child identifies exclusively as the new gender. Not as trans-male, or cis-male, or "genderqueer", or any other label that tries to import delusions of specialness or sexual ambiguity into the identity of the afflicted. The child grows up as male (female), identifies as such, acts as such, and is universally viewed as such. It's a non-issue. The vast majority of transgendered individuals aren't hermaphrodites. I can't remember the exact percentage that are, but it's small. More importantly, men and women who decide to "transition" later in life are dooming themselves to physical and emotional hell. They necessarily must import delusions of sexual ambiguity, because they've lived and grown up as one gender, they're known by that gender, all of their experiences are with that gender, and their physical body is of that gender. Not only do they have to tear that down to the foundations, they have to contend with the fact that their bodies don't care what their minds think. They have to throw away everything they've built up during their childhood and replace it with a cheap facsimile. They look awkward. They act awkward. People who knew them as their former gender have no clue how to treat them, and by the time they've hit adulthood there are thousands of such people. The transgendered individuals I've talked to at length (I've met all types while tutoring) clearly made it integral to their identity. They'd become one-dimensional caricatures. Something is so obviously wrong, people can't and won't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Some of them do it in order to feel special and to feel martyred; I won't speculate on what percentage that is. For those simply seeking normalcy, they won't find it. That's the grand irony. If they think surgery and drugs will fix the problem, they're deluding themselves. No doubt that's a large part of the reason suicide rates are sky high post-surgery. They craved normalcy, they threw away a perfectly good body to get it, and... well, crap... they're Bruce Jenner in drag on the cover of a magazine. You are special, Mr. Jenner. You're the first Olympic athlete who screwed the pooch for your fifteen minutes in drag on the cover of a magazine. You're a pathetic old fool, and good riddance to you when the glamour wears off. whoisjohngalt -- I read hatred in this post. I don't give a fuck what Virgil thinks of me or mine, but I read it because it reminds me that there are a lot of people in this world who think just like him. They think like him, but they don't say this to our face just like I'm sure he doesn't say this to the people he's tutoring that he disapproves of so strongly. There is a good chance that these people, like Virgil, are curious and feign understanding to glean every bit of personal detail they can from us to turn around and at best speak distastefully about us behind our back. You don't have a dog in this fight, and that's fine. I do, and its not because I want everyone to think like me. I do because I want to know that dh, myself and my kids aren't targeted for cruelty because people like Virgil disapprove of our lives. I want to know that dh will get proper medical attention in an emergency. I don't think any of that is unreasonable or treading on anyone else's belief's or opinions.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 18:53:04 GMT -5
Hickle, I said I'd be happy at the demise of the mindset... The mindset that says " I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn" "... That perpetuates the idea that "it's harmful to them (see previous thread on the subject). It becomes harmful to you if the behaviour is peddled as normal, commendable, or even glamorous, and you're inspired to act on your own delusion." and that considers anyone with a different opinion to just be giving "the politically correct response ... to respect the delusion." I don't have to tolerate intolerance. I don't have to respect ignorance. I don't care if you think something is icky, weird or wrong. But don't expect me to sit back while you say that people, in our lives, on this board, on this thread, are dangerous, and delusional, and indicate that intervention should be taken least they infect the masses with their concepts that 'should not be glorified'. No, you don't. But you very much expect others to tolerate what they consider intolerable. That's the definition of hypocrisy and double standard and was my exact point
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 18:58:18 GMT -5
Hickle, I said I'd be happy at the demise of the mindset... The mindset that says " I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn" "... That perpetuates the idea that "it's harmful to them (see previous thread on the subject). It becomes harmful to you if the behaviour is peddled as normal, commendable, or even glamorous, and you're inspired to act on your own delusion." and that considers anyone with a different opinion to just be giving "the politically correct response ... to respect the delusion." I don't have to tolerate intolerance. I don't have to respect ignorance. I don't care if you think something is icky, weird or wrong. But don't expect me to sit back while you say that people, in our lives, on this board, on this thread, are dangerous, and delusional, and indicate that intervention should be taken least they infect the masses with their concepts that 'should not be glorified'. But aren't you essentially doing the same thing?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 18:59:30 GMT -5
Do you believe if you were a brain in a vat, you would be a male brain in a vat? Or an asexual brain in a vat? It wouldn't matter at that point, would it? FWIW, I don't believe there's such thing as a male spirit or a female spirit, most notably because scripture says so. Gender is about harmony. Compatibility. Complementariness. Stability. Function. Lack of confusion. There is a point--a fine line, if you will--at which "transitioning" necessarily destroys all of these things. Mr. Jenner is far beyond that line, and he obviously doesn't care. His goal is to get as many people as possible to embrace his delusion.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 18:59:38 GMT -5
Hermaphrodites are such from birth; the problem arises when the gender they're assigned isn't the gender manifested. The problem is typically discovered when the child is very young, and at that point, since the child has no strong history living as one gender, I can see the wisdom in parents correcting their mistake without much trauma to the child. Everything I've read suggests that the healthy child identifies exclusively as the new gender. Not as trans-male, or cis-male, or "genderqueer", or any other label that tries to import delusions of specialness or sexual ambiguity into the identity of the afflicted. The child grows up as male (female), identifies as such, acts as such, and is universally viewed as such. It's a non-issue. The vast majority of transgendered individuals aren't hermaphrodites. I can't remember the exact percentage that are, but it's small. More importantly, men and women who decide to "transition" later in life are dooming themselves to physical and emotional hell. They necessarily must import delusions of sexual ambiguity, because they've lived and grown up as one gender, they're known by that gender, all of their experiences are with that gender, and their physical body is of that gender. Not only do they have to tear that down to the foundations, they have to contend with the fact that their bodies don't care what their minds think. They have to throw away everything they've built up during their childhood and replace it with a cheap facsimile. They look awkward. They act awkward. People who knew them as their former gender have no clue how to treat them, and by the time they've hit adulthood there are thousands of such people. The transgendered individuals I've talked to at length (I've met all types while tutoring) clearly made it integral to their identity. They'd become one-dimensional caricatures. Something is so obviously wrong, people can't and won't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Some of them do it in order to feel special and to feel martyred; I won't speculate on what percentage that is. For those simply seeking normalcy, they won't find it. That's the grand irony. If they think surgery and drugs will fix the problem, they're deluding themselves. No doubt that's a large part of the reason suicide rates are sky high post-surgery. They craved normalcy, they threw away a perfectly good body to get it, and... well, crap... they're Bruce Jenner in drag on the cover of a magazine. You are special, Mr. Jenner. You're the first Olympic athlete who screwed the pooch for your fifteen minutes in drag on the cover of a magazine. You're a pathetic old fool, and good riddance to you when the glamour wears off. whoisjohngalt -- I read hatred in this post. I don't give a fuck what Virgil thinks of me or mine, but I read it because it reminds me that there are a lot of people in this world who think just like him. They think like him, but they don't say this to our face just like I'm sure he doesn't say this to the people he's tutoring that he disapproves of so strongly. There is a good chance that these people, like Virgil, are curious and feign understanding to glean every bit of personal detail they can from us to turn around and at best speak distastefully about us behind our back. You don't have a dog in this fight, and that's fine. I do, and its not because I want everyone to think like me. I do because I want to know that dh, myself and my kids aren't targeted for cruelty because people like Virgil disapprove of our lives. I want to know that dh will get proper medical attention in an emergency. I don't think any of that is unreasonable or treading on anyone else's belief's or opinions. See, and now you are getting into the realm of.....can't find the right word. No one on this thread suggested or implied that it was OK to be cruel or not get proper treatment or anything of that sort And if you truly don't "give a fuck" what Virgil thinks, what difference does it make what he says behind your back?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:02:42 GMT -5
I didn't say anything about MJ or Tequila having different opinions, although I might argue a different position. I was quite specific in differentiating between what I see as a different opinion, and a dangerous mindset.
I like to think I wouldn't have been tolerant of the KKK or Nazi occupation either. Those people had opinions. You think their opinions should have been respected?
When the positions of others become dangerous, when they pomote actions, when they support the abasement of other people, then it is more than a personal belief.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 19:04:14 GMT -5
I read hatred in this post. If you think this is hatred, go out into the world. Get a life. You're either deliberately misusing the term, or else you don't have a blessed clue what real hatred is.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 19:08:16 GMT -5
I didn't say anything about MJ or Tequila having different opinions, although I might argue a different position. I was quite specific in differentiating between what I see as a different opinion, and a dangerous mindset. I like to to think I wouldn't have been tolerant o the KKK or Nazi occupation either. Those people had opinions. You think their opinions should have been respected? When the positions of others become dangerous, when they pomote actions, when they support the a basement of other people, then it is more than a personal belief. Why don't you articulate how exactly my opinions expressed on this thread are dangerous, and what you feel is the appropriate response. If you want to base your response in reality, mind this post when crafting your reply.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 19:13:51 GMT -5
whoisjohngalt -- I read hatred in this post. I don't give a fuck what Virgil thinks of me or mine, but I read it because it reminds me that there are a lot of people in this world who think just like him. They think like him, but they don't say this to our face just like I'm sure he doesn't say this to the people he's tutoring that he disapproves of so strongly. There is a good chance that these people, like Virgil, are curious and feign understanding to glean every bit of personal detail they can from us to turn around and at best speak distastefully about us behind our back. You don't have a dog in this fight, and that's fine. I do, and its not because I want everyone to think like me. I do because I want to know that dh, myself and my kids aren't targeted for cruelty because people like Virgil disapprove of our lives. I want to know that dh will get proper medical attention in an emergency. I don't think any of that is unreasonable or treading on anyone else's belief's or opinions. See, and now you are getting into the realm of.....can't find the right word. No one on this thread suggested or implied that it was OK to be cruel or not get proper treatment or anything of that sort And if you truly don't "give a fuck" what Virgil thinks, what difference does it make what he says behind your back? People are trying very hard to equate "not liking" to "venomous, violent hatred".
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 15,015
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 19:16:53 GMT -5
whoisjohngalt -- I read hatred in this post. I don't give a fuck what Virgil thinks of me or mine, but I read it because it reminds me that there are a lot of people in this world who think just like him. They think like him, but they don't say this to our face just like I'm sure he doesn't say this to the people he's tutoring that he disapproves of so strongly. There is a good chance that these people, like Virgil, are curious and feign understanding to glean every bit of personal detail they can from us to turn around and at best speak distastefully about us behind our back. You don't have a dog in this fight, and that's fine. I do, and its not because I want everyone to think like me. I do because I want to know that dh, myself and my kids aren't targeted for cruelty because people like Virgil disapprove of our lives. I want to know that dh will get proper medical attention in an emergency. I don't think any of that is unreasonable or treading on anyone else's belief's or opinions. See, and now you are getting into the realm of.....can't find the right word. No one on this thread suggested or implied that it was OK to be cruel or not get proper treatment or anything of that sort And if you truly don't "give a fuck" what Virgil thinks, what difference does it make what he says behind your back? I'm obviously not able to articulate my point. I don't care what people say, but sometimes people do a lot worse and avoiding that is part of my reality. Am I overly sensitive? Maybe. But being sensitive isn't something that I will apologize for.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Jun 2, 2015 19:17:41 GMT -5
Do you believe if you were a brain in a vat, you would be a male brain in a vat? Or an asexual brain in a vat? Mr. Jenner . . . His goal is to get as many people as possible to embrace his delusion.Holy Cr*p
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 19:21:00 GMT -5
I didn't say anything about MJ or Tequila having different opinions, although I might argue a different position. I was quite specific in differentiating between what I see as a different opinion, and a dangerous mindset. I like to to think I wouldn't have been tolerant o the KKK or Nazi occupation either. Those people had opinions. You think their opinions should have been respected? When the positions of others become dangerous, when they pomote actions, when they support the a basement of other people, then it is more than a personal belief. And that's fine but then why should they be tolerant of you? See, my point is that if you want to demand tolerance and acceptance from others, you should provide the same in return, regardless of their views/mind set. Abortion is one of the perfect examples, bc both sides consider the other side mindset dangerous and one that promotes action. NO, I DON'T WANT TO START ABORTION DEBATE, IT'S JUST AN EXAMPLE THAT I COULD COME UP WITH EASILY It's kind of the same here - Virgil thinks that what is happening is dangerous, you think that his mindset is dangerous. And yes, it's still all remains to be a personal belief. As far as what I think - I don't claim that everyone should be tolerant and all-accepting and I certainly don't think that everyone's opinions should be respected. But I am OK with that. I am OK with being judgmental to certain things and about certain people. I simply don't subscribe to that kind of mentality and again, I am OK with that
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:21:55 GMT -5
See, and now you are getting into the realm of.....can't find the right word. No one on this thread suggested or implied that it was OK to be cruel or not get proper treatment or anything of that sort And if you truly don't "give a fuck" what Virgil thinks, what difference does it make what he says behind your back? I'm obviously not able to articulate my point. I don't care what people say, but sometimes people do a lot worse and avoiding that is part of my reality. Am I overly sensitive? Maybe. But being sensitive isn't something that I will apologize for. If you are over sensitive then you are wrong by your own admission. Has anyone on this thread done anything besides say something?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:24:00 GMT -5
You aren't saying 'I don't get it' and moving on Virgil. You are expressing the idea that other people are wrong, delusional, fools, absurd, sick and harmful... That society should not support people in that position, that accepting them is dangerous and wrong and the people who are accepting are also delusional and 'politically correct' and putting society at risk.
And before people accuse me of treating you the same way I am accusing you of treating others. Yes. I would like to stop you... Not from living the way in which YOU would like to live... But from impeding/ stopping others from living as they would live.
You can think any thing you like and I'll tolerate your right to think what you like. But I won't tolerate the underpinnings that others should be condemned / stopped from living as they see fit.
If you can't see the distinction. No problem. May I suggest you unfriend my intolerant person.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 19:27:06 GMT -5
See, and now you are getting into the realm of.....can't find the right word. No one on this thread suggested or implied that it was OK to be cruel or not get proper treatment or anything of that sort And if you truly don't "give a fuck" what Virgil thinks, what difference does it make what he says behind your back? I'm obviously not able to articulate my point. I don't care what people say, but sometimes people do a lot worse and avoiding that is part of my reality. Am I overly sensitive? Maybe. But being sensitive isn't something that I will apologize for. I get that. There was one time that TD almost kicked me off old YM bc one of the topics got too personal to me and Dark Honor got under my skin with some of his comments and I went off and got very personal. And 1) I am not a sensitive type and 2) I don't take posts on message boards seriously at ALL! And yet, it got to me. So, I get it. I don't know if it's all semantics, but I hear a lot of disdain and disgust coming from Virgil, but not really hatred. And I completely respect if you are getting a different feel and as a matter of fact, I do think that Virgil Showlion should cool it, bc even if unintentionally, he is being so hurtful, he should probably take that into consideration.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:28:43 GMT -5
He doesn't give a shit. His response to her was to get a life.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 19:30:12 GMT -5
You aren't saying 'I don't get it' and moving on Virgil. You are expressing the idea that other people are wrong, delusional, fools, absurd, sick and harmful... That society should not support people in that position, that accepting them is dangerous and wrong and the people who are accepting are also delusional and 'politically correct' and putting society at risk. And before people accuse me of treating you the same way I am accusing you of treating others. Yes. I would like to stop you... Not from living the way in which YOU would like to live... But from impeding/ stopping others from living as they would live. You can think any thing you like and I'll tolerate your right to think what you like. But I won't tolerate the underpinnings that others should be condemned / stopped from living as they see fit. If you can't see the distinction. No problem. May I suggest you unfriend my intolerant person. Was that addressed to me?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 19:30:23 GMT -5
Mr. Jenner . . . His goal is to get as many people as possible to embrace his delusion.Holy Cr*p It's precisely what he's doing. Posing for a glamour magazine, declaring to the world "Call me Caitlyn." You don't think he's delusional: fine. We'll say his goal is to get as many people as possible to "accept his transition". And collect a paycheque. I suppose we shouldn't forget that.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 19:32:16 GMT -5
I can certainly see how Virgil's posts can be seen as very inflammatory. Mostly I'm just SMH at what he's saying because I don't believe it. But I don't see him inciting violence against people and according to his posts, he'd address a Trans person in the manner they'd prefer. I bet a lot of people would do the same thing because it's basic manners and has nothing to do with their stance on whatever issue.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 19:35:34 GMT -5
I'm obviously not able to articulate my point. I don't care what people say, but sometimes people do a lot worse and avoiding that is part of my reality. Am I overly sensitive? Maybe. But being sensitive isn't something that I will apologize for. I get that. There was one time that TD almost kicked me off old YM bc one of the topics got too personal to me and Dark Honor got under my skin with some of his comments and I went off and got very personal. And 1) I am not a sensitive type and 2) I don't take posts on message boards seriously at ALL! And yet, it got to me. So, I get it. I don't know if it's all semantics, but I hear a lot of disdain and disgust coming from Virgil, but not really hatred. And I completely respect if you are getting a different feel and as a matter of fact, I do think that Virgil Showlion should cool it, bc even if unintentionally, he is being so hurtful, he should probably take that into consideration. I agree that he needs to calm down as well.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:41:13 GMT -5
I get that. There was one time that TD almost kicked me off old YM bc one of the topics got too personal to me and Dark Honor got under my skin with some of his comments and I went off and got very personal. And 1) I am not a sensitive type and 2) I don't take posts on message boards seriously at ALL! And yet, it got to me. So, I get it. I don't know if it's all semantics, but I hear a lot of disdain and disgust coming from Virgil, but not really hatred. And I completely respect if you are getting a different feel and as a matter of fact, I do think that Virgil Showlion should cool it, bc even if unintentionally, he is being so hurtful, he should probably take that into consideration. I agree that he needs to calm down as well. Or people who don't like what he says could put him on ignore.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 19:41:39 GMT -5
You don't think he's delusional: fine. We'll say his goal is to get as many people as possible to "accept his transition". And collect a paycheque. I suppose we shouldn't forget that. Sounds very similar to what people feel the Duggars were doing when they decided to hide and not report the molestation of their daughters. Their goal is to get as many people as possible to accept the idea that they are a wholesome family and their religious beliefs are good and just. And collect a paycheque.
But since your religious beliefs are more aligned with theirs (it's unfortunate that the women must be sacrificed and subservient, but promoting and preserving the Christian religion is more important than their individual rights), you seem OK with the Duggars making similar choices to use the media to promote their beliefs.
And frankly, many of the Duggars beliefs are just as far into the realm of what might be considered "delusional" as Caitlyn's, IMO.
|
|
Peace Of Mind
Senior Associate
[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:53:02 GMT -5
Posts: 15,554
Location: Paradise
|
Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 2, 2015 19:41:50 GMT -5
I read hatred in this post. If you think this is hatred, go out into the world. Get a life.You're either deliberately misusing the term, or else you don't have a blessed clue what real hatred is. Was that really necessary? You are showing disrespect towards Rae and I think that's totally uncalled for in light of this very sensitive topic - especially for her. Having to deal with all of this first hand leads me to believe she (along with SK) has more of a life and is living in the real world far more than most of us posting here about this topic.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 19:45:30 GMT -5
I'm obviously not able to articulate my point. I don't care what people say, but sometimes people do a lot worse and avoiding that is part of my reality. Am I overly sensitive? Maybe. But being sensitive isn't something that I will apologize for. I get that. There was one time that TD almost kicked me off old YM bc one of the topics got too personal to me and Dark Honor got under my skin with some of his comments and I went off and got very personal. And 1) I am not a sensitive type and 2) I don't take posts on message boards seriously at ALL! And yet, it got to me. So, I get it. I don't know if it's all semantics, but I hear a lot of disdain and disgust coming from Virgil, but not really hatred. And I completely respect if you are getting a different feel and as a matter of fact, I do think that Virgil Showlion should cool it, bc even if unintentionally, he is being so hurtful, he should probably take that into consideration. I've expressed the same opinion for well over six years now. I've been accused of ignorance countless times. I don't recall ever being accused of hatred, inciting suicide, or talking behind people's backs. I'll let others take over here, but I think anyone reading this should think long and hard about the consequences of the argument "everybody must accept the gender choices of XYZ individuals, and those who refuse are necessarily hateful and dangerous", which is precisely the argument being made here.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 19:47:19 GMT -5
I agree that he needs to calm down as well. Or people who don't like what he says could put him on ignore. Statements like his make it very difficult to have a meaningful discourse on this issue. Same for the Duggar thread.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 13, 2024 23:24:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:51:29 GMT -5
Or people who don't like what he says could put him on ignore. Statements like his make it very difficult to have a meaningful discourse on this issue. Same for the Duggar thread. Many of the posters in the Duggar thread were dishonest. One poster took one sentence out of one of my posts where I explained what I meant by that sentence and put it in a completely different context. Posters there took cheap shots at people they disagreed with and were dishonest in accusations. It was shameful how many posters acted.
|
|