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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 12:18:07 GMT -5
When I say gender is a continuum I don't necessarily mean that all people spend their lives going up and down the continuum, but that we are spread out on a continuum.
Although I do think that there are also different components to gender and aging which can also change within the individual.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 2, 2015 12:21:58 GMT -5
When I say gender is a continuum I don't necessarily mean that all people spend their lives going up and down the continuum, but that we are spread out on a continuum.
The folks who do not accept this are the ones who make life miserable for those who do not conform to their particular, cherished spot on that continuum .
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 12:22:06 GMT -5
It's a correct guess. That's what many testimonies states. It's also exactly what anorexics, "transracialists", women desperate to look like Angelina Jolie, et al. will testify to. We call it body dismorphism and get them help. We don't encourage their delusions. Wouldn't you be offended if I suggested you need help because of your religious delusions? "Let's not encourage it, but get you help" would make you howl from the rooftops. I can't count the number of times you've suggested religion-minded US politicians (or political figures) are delusional and need help. I don't recall ever howling from the rooftops. I agree with you just as often as not. As far as Mr. Jenner is concerned, if he wasn't so hell bent on making himself into a public spectacle, my response would be "whatever; good luck with that; you look like a man in drag". It may surprise you to know that it isn't uncommon for me to come in contact with obviously transgendered people, and I call them "ma'am" if they want to be called "ma'am", and "sir" if they want to be called "sir". They don't need me adding to their problems. If ever they pose for Vanity Fair, consider them my version of the Duggars. They're glamorizing actions and lifestyles with provably harmful consequences, and they forfeit their right to happy Virgil smiling and nodding. As for who uses what bathroom, etc.: I really don't care.
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cael
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Post by cael on Jun 2, 2015 12:30:21 GMT -5
I would immediately get her into therapy and hope I was able to fix whatever was causing her to think that way...because I don't buy into the "I get to pick my gender" that so many of you do. And if I couldn't fix her, I would need tons of therapy to deal with it...or alcohol...yes, tons of therapy and alcohol.
I in no way think people get to "pick" their gender - actually the opposite. You can't pick the body your brain was born with and for some people, it just isn't the right combination. I haven't experienced those feelings so who am I to say they aren't legitimate.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 12:31:59 GMT -5
I think therapy is par for the course though... therapy either way. It's not like saying "I want to be a blonde".
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2015 12:33:40 GMT -5
Hell bent? He was already in the public eye! And he tried to do it quietly. Someone leaked his first surgery, after there was already rumours surrounding him, and the paparazzi followed him mercilessly. Someone used a telephoto lens to snap him in a dress in his own home from a mile away!
So no I don't blame him for deciding that enough was enough and he was going to tell his story and control when everyone saw Caitlyn for the first time. He also mentioned a few times that he thought that if his story helped other trans people (and from letters mailed to him I would say it had).
I used male pronouns because that information I said was when he still referred to himself using a male name/pronoun. Mostly from the Diane interview.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 2, 2015 12:36:12 GMT -5
If 'therapy' is another name for counseling, then I am all for it. Counseling can help clear up any existing confusion. Either the person will accept their physical body they were born with or help them to decide to transition to the opposite gender they believe is right for them.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 2, 2015 12:41:04 GMT -5
It depends on what one means by "counseling" or "therapy."
For most of us, it means finding a trained, licensed professional to help us sort objectively and compassionately through our blocks, barriers and emotional hurdles to arrive at a place or a solution that meets our needs, plus a plan for implementing it.
However, for *some* of us, "counseling" or "therapy" means "let me lecture you as to why you are wrong and let me straighten your head out so that you think I like I do."
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 12:43:18 GMT -5
I think gender is very much a social construct. If it was not, societies wouldn't create different modes of dress and behavior assuming/demanding there only exist two types of people in the world - male and female, feminine and masculine.
I used to read a lot about gender roles and the different behavior starts at birth. Perhaps the parents do their best to seek some gender neutral way to treat them, but from the moment they are picked up by a midwife, doctor, or nurse - they get different messages. Like 'how cute, she will beautiful like her Mom or he looks so big and strong I bet he will be a linebacker. I know of no society yet which encourages and allows all behaviors equally between the two genders society has allowed to exist.
For example, do all of the women your kids come in contact with act in a gender neutral way? The Men? Are men wearing skirts, carrying purses? Are the women wearing no jewelry and only carrying wallets or stuff in their pockets? All TV and media has been free of gender messages? Kids imitate what they see, in the absence of rules or ideas how to act, they mimic people they want to be like.
I'm not raising them in a bubble, but I am trying to raise them to think for themselves and question their environment. We work hard to get past our own gender bias' and give kids access to what would categorically be opposite gender items. We don't push it on them, but hopefully they can choose what they want based on their own values. In nature vs. nurture, nature won. If nurture was all that mattered then there likely wouldn't be trans people. Dh was raised in his birth gender, but that didn't make him a girl. Its never just nature versus nurture IMO. Its everything all at once. We have no way at this point to objectively track what is nature and what is outside influence(nurture.)
I don't know why there are trans people. It could come from so many factors. Chromosomes, hormone level exposure in utero, simple personality, ... There are XXY, XXYY, XXXY just to name a few on the chromosome side. If it was purely biological, couldn't I decide I really knew what was feminine or not simply because I have a big chest and beautiful hair?
But that was not my experience. I was told early on what I was supposed to like or not. And like most humans you learn to modify your desires to fit in and stay accepted. For example, liking cars is acceptable now for girls. (Then I only got a few as toys, the first one was a feminine color truck carrying animal figurines, not a blue pickup truck.) And clothes. So gender typed. A man can wear a very nice suit to work, business or social occasions. Except for tuxes, there are no "dress" non work suits. Yet a woman, no matter how nice the suit, is considered not dressed well, less of a woman, even if she wore a suit made of the same great fabric just cut for her. That's not biology. That's not common sense. That's something society has put into place because knowing who is a boy or a girl seems of utmost importance.
So its isn't all that surprising to me that the photo shoot for Caitlyn is all sexy dresses and not a woman in a ponytail in jeans.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 2, 2015 12:43:41 GMT -5
It depends on what one means by "counseling" or "therapy."
For most of us, it means finding a trained, licensed professional to help us sort objectively and compassionately through our blocks, barriers and emotional hurdles to arrive at a place or a solution that meets our needs, plus a plan for implementing it.
However, for *some* of us, "counseling" or "therapy" means "let me lecture you as to why you are wrong and let me straighten your head out so that you think I like I do." Gay conversion therapy, especially for minors.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 12:44:21 GMT -5
a legitimate therapist wouldn't be telling anyone anything - they'd listen, observe, and draw conclusions regardless of their own personal stance.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 12:46:46 GMT -5
It depends on what one means by "counseling" or "therapy."
For most of us, it means finding a trained, licensed professional to help us sort objectively and compassionately through our blocks, barriers and emotional hurdles to arrive at a place or a solution that meets our needs, plus a plan for implementing it.
However, for *some* of us, "counseling" or "therapy" means "let me lecture you as to why you are wrong and let me straighten your head out so that you think I like I do." To be honest, for me it would probably be a little bit of both.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 12:53:21 GMT -5
So no I don't blame him for deciding that enough was enough and he was going to tell his story and control when everyone saw Caitlyn for the first time. He also mentioned a few times that he thought that if his story helped other trans people (and from letters mailed to him I would say it had). That's presuming his story genuinely helps other transgendered people, which it won't, and that the appropriate response to paparazzi attention is to charge head-on into the public spotlight, which it isn't. Now he's just a fool sitting in women's lingerie on the cover of a glamour magazine begging people to call him "Caitlyn", while message boards everywhere are atitter with gossip over whether he's chopped his bits off yet and whether he can officially call himself a lesbian. At least he's getting a fat paycheque for it.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 2, 2015 12:53:44 GMT -5
It depends on what one means by "counseling" or "therapy."
For most of us, it means finding a trained, licensed professional to help us sort objectively and compassionately through our blocks, barriers and emotional hurdles to arrive at a place or a solution that meets our needs, plus a plan for implementing it.
However, for *some* of us, "counseling" or "therapy" means "let me lecture you as to why you are wrong and let me straighten your head out so that you think I like I do." To be honest, for me it would probably be a little bit of both. Just FYI, telling someone what to do or what to believe is the antithesis of the therapeutic relationship. Anyone who finds a therapist who does this should run the other way - fast.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 12:53:44 GMT -5
Why didn't my 10 month old DD imitate my DH shaving instead of me carrying a purse? Why did my DS do the opposite? I don't think we encouraged it. At that age the only thing I encouraged was sleeping and not crying. Did everyone call them an it, because otherwise I think the answer is obvious. More than one person let them know they were a girl or boy and there are certain behaviors acceptable when you are one or the other. The fact that neither of you were acting totally gender neutral while at home with them proves my point.
Gender behaviors are displayed from the day a baby is born and opens its eyes.
I'm not claiming I provided a totally gender neutral environment. I'm just surprised that at what I think of as such a young age (10 months) a kid was actually identifying correctly, without me yelling day in and out in her face, "YOU ARE A GIRL, JUST LIKE MEEEEE!!!". I found it interesting, that's all.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 12:59:35 GMT -5
So no I don't blame him for deciding that enough was enough and he was going to tell his story and control when everyone saw Caitlyn for the first time. He also mentioned a few times that he thought that if his story helped other trans people (and from letters mailed to him I would say it had). That's presuming his story genuinely helps other transgendered people, which it won't, and that the appropriate response to paparazzi attention is to charge head-on into the public spotlight, which it isn't. Now he's just a fool sitting in women's lingerie on the cover of a glamour magazine begging people to call him "Caitlyn", while message boards everywhere are atitter with gossip over whether he's chopped his bits off yet and whether he can officially call himself a lesbian. At least he's getting a fat paycheque for it. he he.... a titter.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jun 2, 2015 13:01:59 GMT -5
And eventually you would come to accept it. You really only have two choices-accept it (while not understanding it (which is okay)) or disown the child. In all seriousness...I'm just glad it isn't something I will ever have to deal with. I honestly have no idea how you can accept something like that, yet I also could never disown my child... I'm not a parent, but I suspect that most loving involved parents would feel the same way. It's a difficult road. And it's something that not everyone can accept. But, I think most parents want their children to be happy and comfortable in their own skin, and so in the end will accept whatever help's their child achieve that.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 13:02:05 GMT -5
When I say gender is a continuum I don't necessarily mean that all people spend their lives going up and down the continuum, but that we are spread out on a continuum. Although I do think that there are also different components to gender and aging which can also change within the individual. I think gender is a continuum and I wonder if society allowed free expression whether those contiuums might overlay each other almost entirely. I do think males and females will cluster on certain behaviors just as certain races, religions, and nationalities do.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 13:04:00 GMT -5
Odd things to think about - how does plastic surgery botched or not impact anyone who receives it?
In the most recent study, Lipworth's team tracked outcomes for more than 3,500 Swedish women who underwent cosmetic breast implant surgery in the years 1965 to 1993. They used death certificate information to analyze the causes of death among women with the implants and compared it to data for the general female population.
After a follow-up of almost 19 years, the suicide rate was three times higher for women with implants compared with the general population. There were 24 suicides in the implant group. The risk of suicide was nearly seven times higher for women who got their implants at age 45 or older, the researchers found. abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4508241&page=1
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 13:06:51 GMT -5
That's presuming his story genuinely helps other transgendered people, which it won't, and that the appropriate response to paparazzi attention is to charge head-on into the public spotlight, which it isn't. Now he's just a fool sitting in women's lingerie on the cover of a glamour magazine begging people to call him "Caitlyn", while message boards everywhere are atitter with gossip over whether he's chopped his bits off yet and whether he can officially call himself a lesbian. At least he's getting a fat paycheque for it. he he.... a titter. In more ways than one, I guess.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 2, 2015 13:07:54 GMT -5
The reason for increased suicide rates after transition seems pretty obvious to me. Up until one transitions you look how society expects, while you probably hear nasty things about transgender people it's directed at other people, not you. It's only recently that it's being addressed before puberty so almost everyone transitions after adulthood where their body fully grew into the opposite gender. That alone makes it hard to completely look like the right gender without even touching the fact that a lot of them don't have tens of thousands of dollars to get a lot of work done. So you may be finally living as the gender you see yourself as but now the nasty comments are directed at you if your transition wasn't seamless. Now instead of hearing people saying transgender should kill themselves they are telling you to go kill yourself. If I were trans and read this thread I certainly wouldn't feel very safe and accepted as an equal human being.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 13:09:00 GMT -5
www.yspp.org/about_suicide/statistics.html
Has interesting stats. (50% plus of transgender youth have one suicide attempt by 20 years old.) How we all interpret statistics has much to do with what we believe to be true and often not enough about what is really true or happening with others. I have misconceptions broken weekly.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 13:09:20 GMT -5
I think we'd all be a bit gobsmacked to hear the news, but the big question is, how would you treat her after you absorbed it? Would you disown her? Refuse to call her he? Or try to respect her feelings and learn to deal with it, in whatever way you could? I don't care if you actually answer me, but that's what I think to myself when I wonder how I'd deal with something like this for real. I would always love my daughter...but I would definitely struggle with this. I honestly don't know what the hell I would do. I would never disown her. I think any parent would struggle with this. It's a difficult concept, and it's challenging everything you've believed about your child since birth. Who wouldn't struggle with it? However, when it comes down to the wire, it's not about the parent. It's about the child (or, the child who is now an adult). It's about the child's life, not the parent's life. We love our children with a love that is unbreakable. Whether that child is male, or female, or misplaced as to body vs identity, we still love them and the vast majority of us will adjust and power through the difficulties for the sake of our children. I don't imagine it's much different for those who find their children are simply gay, not transgendered.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jun 2, 2015 13:10:38 GMT -5
So no I don't blame him for deciding that enough was enough and he was going to tell his story and control when everyone saw Caitlyn for the first time. He also mentioned a few times that he thought that if his story helped other trans people (and from letters mailed to him I would say it had). That's presuming his story genuinely helps other transgendered people, which it won't, and that the appropriate response to paparazzi attention is to charge head-on into the public spotlight, which it isn't. Now he's just a fool sitting in women's lingerie on the cover of a glamour magazine begging people to call him "Caitlyn", while message boards everywhere are atitter with gossip over whether he's chopped his bits off yet and whether he can officially call himself a lesbian. At least he's getting a fat paycheque for it. Caitlyn's decision to be so public about her transition was probably in large part because she was so public. It's not like she can hide under a rock and only have those nearest and dearest to her know. Many people don't know anyone who is transgendered. They have no idea what that struggle is like. The very fact that I see more people talking about the struggle of transition than hurling insults leads me to believe she made the right decision.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 2, 2015 13:12:06 GMT -5
And eventually you would come to accept it. You really only have two choices-accept it (while not understanding it (which is okay)) or disown the child. In all seriousness...I'm just glad it isn't something I will ever have to deal with. I honestly have no idea how you can accept something like that, yet I also could never disown my child... I think 99% of parents would agree with you. No one would want their kid to go through this, and most everyone would struggle on how to process it. The GOOD parents choose to love/accept their child, because they realize pretty quickly that if they don't, they lose their child. It really is that basic. Now that I've chosen to love and accept my son, I worry about all the assholes out there who think he's weird/abnormal and beat the shit out of him. International travel? I'm not sure I want him doing that. It's incredibly scary that he could be killed simply for existing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 13:12:59 GMT -5
On a different but similar note, there seems to be a trend where I live for girls and young women to cut their hair very short and dress like boys. Meaning saggy pants with boxers showing. Some of them have feminine facial features, but sometimes the only way you can tell is because they have breasts. I see them often enough that I've gotten kind of use to it. It almost seems like it's a fad.
A few weeks ago, I was at a kids' birthday party and saw what looked like another girl dressed like a boy. But I ended up standing next to her outside, and saw a beard. Now, that, I hadn't seen before and I was confused and trying not to stare while my brain tried to process what I was seeing. A beard and breasts don't match on a young lady.
I asked DD about it (she keeps me up-to-date on what young folks are doing) and she said a lot of girls that dress like that have started taking testosterone and she's seen them with beards before. I don't know what to think about that.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 2, 2015 13:14:47 GMT -5
So its isn't all that surprising to me that the photo shoot for Caitlyn is all sexy dresses and not a woman in a ponytail in jeans. Vanity Fair doesn't typically have photos of anyone in a ponytail and jeans, as best as I'm aware of. the provocative posing is all Annie Leibovitz. check out more of her work, you won't be surprised.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 13:41:56 GMT -5
The reason for increased suicide rates after transition seems pretty obvious to me. Up until one transitions you look how society expects, while you probably hear nasty things about transgender people it's directed at other people, not you. It's only recently that it's being addressed before puberty so almost everyone transitions after adulthood where their body fully grew into the opposite gender. That alone makes it hard to completely look like the right gender without even touching the fact that a lot of them don't have tens of thousands of dollars to get a lot of work done. So you may be finally living as the gender you see yourself as but now the nasty comments are directed at you if your transition wasn't seamless. Now instead of hearing people saying transgender should kill themselves they are telling you to go kill yourself. If I were trans and read this thread I certainly wouldn't feel very safe and accepted as an equal human being. there is one person being a little over the top and a couple more people expressing disagreement - none of them violent and most of them are not condemning. Most people are supportive or apathetic. How is that creating an unwelcoming environment? Since when does anything get 100% support and acceptance (other than babies or kids battling some sort of terminal disease)?
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 2, 2015 13:49:31 GMT -5
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 2, 2015 14:00:05 GMT -5
I'm happy for her that she finally feels comfortable to be herself and she looks great for a 60 year old! I agree with the Jessica Lange comment. That was my first thought too. To me nothing is more important in one's life than being true to themselves as long as they are not hurting anybody else. Reading some of the opinions/feelings here I really feel sorry for my mom when she had me. She was wanting this girlie girl that played with dolls and wanted to wear make up and dresses. Boy was she in for a surprise! I was between 4 boys and wished I was a boy so bad! They had all the cool/fun stuff and weren't as limited as I was as a girl. I wore boy clothes (jeans, t-shirts and sweatshirts) and boys tennis shoes (or whatever they were called back then) and loved GI Joe's and all the cool things like jeeps, and this underwater Trump they could ride while in their cool wet suit/gear and blew stuff up! and you could make cool blow up noises while doing it... <------ My mom esp. when she saw me jump on a horse and take off down the street at full gallop. I had no interest in babies, dolls, wedding shit or Barbie dolls as I got older and wanted to climb trees and have a fort and explore and camp in the jungle (which I did) and build camp fires when we lived in the Philippine Islands. Thank God for the Girl Scouts where I could be me! But during that entire phase I knew I was girl the entire time. Always. If you met me/saw me now you'd think "High maintenance girlie girl" (I'm really not) but I always liked boys in every way and always knew I was a girl. Tom Boy does not mean "thinks they are a boy deep down" like some people think. Not here - but in RL they thought a Lesbian also meant "Tom Boy". Oy! But if I was one I'd have been ok with that. I'd still be the person I am today. Being Transgender has got to be the hardest thing in the world to deal with and I don't envy anybody who has to experience such feelings to be who they really are but look totally opposite. I also have great empathy for the families that have to worry about their loved ones' who do experience it because people can be so cruel. I don't get why they are cruel or mean to people who are different than them. It makes no sense to me and I think they are the ones that need mental help. Killing or hurting somebody who is different than them is just insane.
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