Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 11:36:32 GMT -5
How do you explain prehistoric man then? They lived in large groups where men hunted and women cared for the children and gathered food. Maybe they realized that men might have an advantage over women regarding strength, endurance, and speed, and that women are better multitaskers so they'd be better at gathering and child care... Or did they get that from TV? Why didn't my 10 month old DD imitate my DH shaving instead of me carrying a purse? Why did my DS do the opposite? I don't think we encouraged it. At that age the only thing I encouraged was sleeping and not crying. Did everyone call them an it, because otherwise I think the answer is obvious. More than one person let them know they were a girl or boy and there are certain behaviors acceptable when you are one or the other. The fact that neither of you were acting totally gender neutral while at home with them proves my point.
Gender behaviors are displayed from the day a baby is born and opens its eyes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 11:44:53 GMT -5
Since he likes women, does that mean he is now a lesbian? I'm so confused by all of this...I'm just thankful that this isn't something I have to deal with in real life. I don't think I could handle it if my daughter suddenly decided she was a he...luckily, she is as girly as they come so I think I'm safe. AGAIN......it isn't something one "suddenly decides." I have no idea why you are stuck on the word "suddenly"...I am talking about how I would react if my gorgeous daughter wanted to be a boy. I don't care if it occurred overnight or over the course of a few years...I don't care what anyone outside of the people I care about do...but when it hits home it would crush me.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 11:47:44 GMT -5
I think gender is very much a social construct. If it was not, societies wouldn't create different modes of dress and behavior assuming/demanding there only exist two types of people in the world - male and female, feminine and masculine.
I used to read a lot about gender roles and the different behavior starts at birth. Perhaps the parents do their best to seek some gender neutral way to treat them, but from the moment they are picked up by a midwife, doctor, or nurse - they get different messages. Like 'how cute, she will beautiful like her Mom or he looks so big and strong I bet he will be a linebacker. I know of no society yet which encourages and allows all behaviors equally between the two genders society has allowed to exist.
For example, do all of the women your kids come in contact with act in a gender neutral way? The Men? Are men wearing skirts, carrying purses? Are the women wearing no jewelry and only carrying wallets or stuff in their pockets? All TV and media has been free of gender messages? Kids imitate what they see, in the absence of rules or ideas how to act, they mimic people they want to be like.
How do you explain prehistoric man then? They lived in large groups where men hunted and women cared for the children and gathered food. Maybe they realized that men might have an advantage over women regarding strength, endurance, and speed, and that women are better multitaskers so they'd be better at gathering and child care... Or did they get that from TV? Bad example. Gender roles are things that are assumed, are foisted on the genders. If everything really was natural the best human for the job would always get the job. Or the one who wanted to do it if they were good enough.
Yes men generally are built physically stronger than women and women are the ones who get pregnant. They decided what they decided for their own reasons. Not all women are great multi-taskers nor all men in capable of it. The universe is a big place, with big variations. I hope someone besides myself has noticed that not everyone's physicality is the same. More than XX and XY exist, including all the effects in utero which influence brain development, exposure to various hormones, toxins such as alcohol, being punched in utero, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 11:47:57 GMT -5
Lots of Native American groups allowed for people to cross gender lines, despite most having gender roles.... Although those gender roles are not consistent from group to group.
So, your daughter made necklaces. Do all little people with vaginas do that? If they don't are they 'less' of a female? If a littlle person with a penis makes necklaces, is he female?
At Art Day this year the only little person who I had to tell we were making key chains and not necklaces was dressed like he probably was born with a penis... And refered to as he by his mom.
And nd years we do make necklaces it's not just girls.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 2, 2015 11:48:55 GMT -5
This MJ. Virgil differs from you in that his goal is to categorize the other person as broken and their personal decisions as dangerous... Which is what actually makes his position dangerous and untenable. And it's this type of insistence that contributes to the suicide rates among transgendered populations. So yes, I'll attempt to counter this kind of 'opinion' wherever I can. Now it's "contributes to the suicide rates...". How much of the 2000% higher-than-normal post-surgery transgender suicide rate do you suppose that is? Surely you know. Surely it's enough that we can just ignore that 2,000% as "who gives a damn; people do all kinds of crazy things". Surely there's no harm in passively accepting a delusion. So transgender suicide rates are actually due to society being TOO accepting -- instead, we should label the transgenedered delusional and encourage them to seek help so that they don't further contribute to the downfall of society? That's an interesting theory.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 2, 2015 11:52:01 GMT -5
AGAIN......it isn't something one "suddenly decides." I have no idea why you are stuck on the word "suddenly"...I am talking about how I would react if my gorgeous daughter wanted to be a boy. I don't care if it occurred overnight or over the course of a few years...I don't care what anyone outside of the people I care about do...but when it hits home it would crush me. I think we'd all be a bit gobsmacked to hear the news, but the big question is, how would you treat her after you absorbed it? Would you disown her? Refuse to call her he? Or try to respect her feelings and learn to deal with it, in whatever way you could? I don't care if you actually answer me, but that's what I think to myself when I wonder how I'd deal with something like this for real.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 11:55:01 GMT -5
Lots of Native American groups allowed for people to cross gender lines, despite most having gender roles.... Although those gender roles are not consistent from group to group. So, your daughter made necklaces. Do all little people with vaginas do that? If they don't are they 'less' of a female? If a littlle person with a penis makes necklaces, is he female? At Art Day this year the only little person who I had to tell we were making key chains and not necklaces was dressed like he probably was born with a penis... And refered to as he by his mom. And nd years we do make necklaces it's not just girls. I don't see anyone saying this. maybe you're projecting your own ideas into what people are saying...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 11:55:08 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary. When I first met Virgil, I thought he was a crotchety old man who waved his cane at kids while yelling at them to get off his lawn, too. He was in his 20s at the time.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 11:56:26 GMT -5
Gender is not a social construct. I cannot remember the name of the book right now, but in the 70's a doctor thought that he had the perfect opportunity to prove that nature was stronger than nurture. There were twin boys and one's circumcision went horribly wrong. This doctor told the parents he could 'fix' their child by doing more surgery and making him into a girl. Reading the things that doctor did to try to get the child to mentally and emotionally be a girl was awful. Once the truth was out he dropped the female persona and had to essentially transition back to his birth gender because of all the medical and hormonal stuff that they had done to him. As I watch my own kids I am even more certain that gender is not a social construct but something we are born with. We are painfully aware of gender and our own reactions to it, and work very hard not to associate (and sometimes disassociate) things with gender to give the kids a blank slate. There are plenty of stereotypical gender roles that I see in both of them at very young ages that I feel confident is coming from within and not from our environment. I guess I don't understand the concept behind trying to suppress gender differences - especially knowing that they occur within us absent of outside influences. There is a reason for these differences and IMO we should be celebrating these differences, not trying to suppress them. We're not suppressing gender differences. We're trying to eliminate things like colors or toys or activities being associated with genders. Things don't have gender, people do. I don't want my kids choosing what to do or not do based on genders being put on things.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 2, 2015 11:56:27 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 11:58:38 GMT -5
AGAIN......it isn't something one "suddenly decides." I have no idea why you are stuck on the word "suddenly"...I am talking about how I would react if my gorgeous daughter wanted to be a boy. I don't care if it occurred overnight or over the course of a few years...I don't care what anyone outside of the people I care about do...but when it hits home it would crush me. Ummm..because it's right there, in your post.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 11:59:22 GMT -5
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jun 2, 2015 12:00:07 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary. When I first met Virgil, I thought he was a crotchety old man who waved his cane at kids while yelling at them to get off his lawn, too. He was in his 20s at the time.
Seriously? :eek::eek:
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 12:01:05 GMT -5
I have no idea why you are stuck on the word "suddenly"...I am talking about how I would react if my gorgeous daughter wanted to be a boy. I don't care if it occurred overnight or over the course of a few years...I don't care what anyone outside of the people I care about do...but when it hits home it would crush me. Ummm..because it's right there, in your post. Yes, but you ignore the rest of my post and focus on one word
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 12:03:10 GMT -5
I have no idea why you are stuck on the word "suddenly"...I am talking about how I would react if my gorgeous daughter wanted to be a boy. I don't care if it occurred overnight or over the course of a few years...I don't care what anyone outside of the people I care about do...but when it hits home it would crush me. I think we'd all be a bit gobsmacked to hear the news, but the big question is, how would you treat her after you absorbed it? Would you disown her? Refuse to call her he? Or try to respect her feelings and learn to deal with it, in whatever way you could? I don't care if you actually answer me, but that's what I think to myself when I wonder how I'd deal with something like this for real. I would always love my daughter...but I would definitely struggle with this. I honestly don't know what the hell I would do. I would never disown her.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 12:03:17 GMT -5
Why didn't my 10 month old DD imitate my DH shaving instead of me carrying a purse? Why did my DS do the opposite? I don't think we encouraged it. At that age the only thing I encouraged was sleeping and not crying. Did everyone call them an it, because otherwise I think the answer is obvious. More than one person let them know they were a girl or boy and there are certain behaviors acceptable when you are one or the other. The fact that neither of you were acting totally gender neutral while at home with them proves my point.
Gender behaviors are displayed from the day a baby is born and opens its eyes.
so clearly the next step is to get robots to raise kids. Or have a flamboyantly gay man and a super butch lesbian raise a girl or boy and see how the kid turns out.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 12:03:23 GMT -5
Gender is not a social construct. I cannot remember the name of the book right now, but in the 70's a doctor thought that he had the perfect opportunity to prove that nature was stronger than nurture. There were twin boys and one's circumcision went horribly wrong. This doctor told the parents he could 'fix' their child by doing more surgery and making him into a girl. Reading the things that doctor did to try to get the child to mentally and emotionally be a girl was awful. Once the truth was out he dropped the female persona and had to essentially transition back to his birth gender because of all the medical and hormonal stuff that they had done to him. As I watch my own kids I am even more certain that gender is not a social construct but something we are born with. We are painfully aware of gender and our own reactions to it, and work very hard not to associate (and sometimes disassociate) things with gender to give the kids a blank slate. There are plenty of stereotypical gender roles that I see in both of them at very young ages that I feel confident is coming from within and not from our environment. I think gender is very much a social construct. If it was not, societies wouldn't create different modes of dress and behavior assuming/demanding there only exist two types of people in the world - male and female, feminine and masculine.
I used to read a lot about gender roles and the different behavior starts at birth. Perhaps the parents do their best to seek some gender neutral way to treat them, but from the moment they are picked up by a midwife, doctor, or nurse - they get different messages. Like 'how cute, she will beautiful like her Mom or he looks so big and strong I bet he will be a linebacker. I know of no society yet which encourages and allows all behaviors equally between the two genders society has allowed to exist.
For example, do all of the women your kids come in contact with act in a gender neutral way? The Men? Are men wearing skirts, carrying purses? Are the women wearing no jewelry and only carrying wallets or stuff in their pockets? All TV and media has been free of gender messages? Kids imitate what they see, in the absence of rules or ideas how to act, they mimic people they want to be like.
I'm not raising them in a bubble, but I am trying to raise them to think for themselves and question their environment. We work hard to get past our own gender bias' and give kids access to what would categorically be opposite gender items. We don't push it on them, but hopefully they can choose what they want based on their own values. In nature vs. nurture, nature won. If nurture was all that mattered then there likely wouldn't be trans people. Dh was raised in his birth gender, but that didn't make him a girl.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 12:03:22 GMT -5
Ummm..because it's right there, in your post. Yes, but you ignore the rest of my post and focus on one word Correcting a misconception. One doesn't wake up one sunny morning and suddenly decide they're in the wrong body.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 12:05:43 GMT -5
Lots of Native American groups allowed for people to cross gender lines, despite most having gender roles.... Although those gender roles are not consistent from group to group. So, your daughter made necklaces. Do all little people with vaginas do that? If they don't are they 'less' of a female? If a littlle person with a penis makes necklaces, is he female? At Art Day this year the only little person who I had to tell we were making key chains and not necklaces was dressed like he probably was born with a penis... And refered to as he by his mom. And nd years we do make necklaces it's not just girls. I don't see anyone saying this. maybe you're projecting your own ideas into what people are saying... No. You seem to be saying that genetics controls gender. Thus why little penis or vagina clad people act in certain ways in anecdotal evidence. I am saying gender is fluid. While we do have sex trait genes, how we choose to act and look is a continuum. Society tends to reinforce penis and vaginas acting certain way on the continuum. Some little people with vaginas will feel comfortable and choose to look and act in ways which culture reaffirms is 'acceptable' for 'females' to act. Just because they do doesn't mean all of them will, or make only certain examples 'ok' (although that is what society often tries to do in contracting gender norms). We will have little people with vaginas that 'act like girls' and little people with vaginas that 'are tomboys' and reflect in their manner of dress and behavior that they don't feel drawn to traditional gender roles even though they like their vaginas and boobs, and we will have little people with vaginas who so align themselves with opposite gender behaviors and characteristics, and who do not feel comfortable with their vaginas and boobs, that they want to not have them... It's a continuum. Etc. And at every stage, despite there being sex trait biological forms, society influences the process.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 12:06:02 GMT -5
How do you explain prehistoric man then? They lived in large groups where men hunted and women cared for the children and gathered food. Maybe they realized that men might have an advantage over women regarding strength, endurance, and speed, and that women are better multitaskers so they'd be better at gathering and child care... Or did they get that from TV? Bad example.
How so?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 12:06:28 GMT -5
Yes, but you ignore the rest of my post and focus on one word Correcting a misconception. One doesn't wake up one sunny morning and suddenly decide they're in the wrong body. here is the thing...I dont' give a shit if she woke up one morning or thought about it for years, I would be devastated if my daughter wanted to be a man. I would immediately get her into therapy and hope I was able to fix whatever was causing her to think that way...because I don't buy into the "I get to pick my gender" that so many of you do. And if I couldn't fix her, I would need tons of therapy to deal with it...or alcohol...yes, tons of therapy and alcohol.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2015 12:09:05 GMT -5
The reason for increased suicide rates after transition seems pretty obvious to me. Up until one transitions you look how society expects, while you probably hear nasty things about transgender people it's directed at other people, not you. It's only recently that it's being addressed before puberty so almost everyone transitions after adulthood where their body fully grew into the opposite gender. That alone makes it hard to completely look like the right gender without even touching the fact that a lot of them don't have tens of thousands of dollars to get a lot of work done. So you may be finally living as the gender you see yourself as but now the nasty comments are directed at you if your transition wasn't seamless. Now instead of hearing people saying transgender should kill themselves they are telling you to go kill yourself.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 2, 2015 12:10:08 GMT -5
Correcting a misconception. One doesn't wake up one sunny morning and suddenly decide they're in the wrong body. here is the thing...I dont' give a shit if she woke up one morning or thought about it for years, I would be devastated if my daughter wanted to be a man. I would immediately get her into therapy and hope I was able to fix whatever was causing her to think that way...because I don't buy into the "I get to pick my gender" that so many of you do. And if I couldn't fix her, I would need tons of therapy to deal with it...or alcohol...yes, tons of therapy and alcohol. And eventually you would come to accept it. You really only have two choices-accept it (while not understanding it (which is okay)) or disown the child.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 2, 2015 12:10:23 GMT -5
I think gender is very much a social construct. If it was not, societies wouldn't create different modes of dress and behavior assuming/demanding there only exist two types of people in the world - male and female, feminine and masculine.
I used to read a lot about gender roles and the different behavior starts at birth. Perhaps the parents do their best to seek some gender neutral way to treat them, but from the moment they are picked up by a midwife, doctor, or nurse - they get different messages. Like 'how cute, she will beautiful like her Mom or he looks so big and strong I bet he will be a linebacker. I know of no society yet which encourages and allows all behaviors equally between the two genders society has allowed to exist.
For example, do all of the women your kids come in contact with act in a gender neutral way? The Men? Are men wearing skirts, carrying purses? Are the women wearing no jewelry and only carrying wallets or stuff in their pockets? All TV and media has been free of gender messages? Kids imitate what they see, in the absence of rules or ideas how to act, they mimic people they want to be like.
How do you explain prehistoric man then? They lived in large groups where men hunted and women cared for the children and gathered food. Maybe they realized that men might have an advantage over women regarding strength, endurance, and speed, and that women are better multitaskers so they'd be better at gathering and child care... Or did they get that from TV? I heard that the men just wanted to get out of the caves so they didn't have to listen to the women complaining about how the family down the path had a bigger cave and how the men in that cave brought home nicer meat.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 12:11:02 GMT -5
I don't see anyone saying this. maybe you're projecting your own ideas into what people are saying... No. You seem to be saying that genetics controls gender. Thus why little penis or vagina clad people act in certain ways in anecdotal evidence. I am saying gender is fluid. While we do have sex trait genes, how we choose to act and look is a continuum. Society tends to reinforce penis and vaginas acting certain way on the continuum. Some little people with vaginas will feel comfortable and choose to look and act in ways which culture reaffirms is 'acceptable' for 'females' to act. Just because they do doesn't mean all of them will, or make only certain examples 'ok' (although that is what society often tries to do in contracting gender norms). We will have little people with vaginas that 'act like girls' and little people with vaginas that 'are tomboys' and reflect in their manner of dress and behavior that they don't feel drawn to traditional gender roles even though they like their vaginas and boobs, and we will have little people with vaginas who so align themselves with opposite gender behaviors and characteristics, and who do not feel comfortable with their vaginas and boobs, that they want to not have them... It's a continuum. Etc. And at every stage, despite there being sex trait biological forms, society influences the process. I BELIEVE (and yes I have to keep saying this lest I be hung by my toenails for spewing nonfactual information) that gender is both a social and biological construct (namely the presence or absence of the Y chromosome). The social aspect can change as societal norms change, the biological part not so much. Because BOTH aspects aren't fluid, and gender is composed of both, gender cannot be fluid. And despite your best efforts, a lot of you are only further proving me right.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 2, 2015 12:12:08 GMT -5
I think the point that many people here are missing is that gender is a fluid construct for some people. But clearly not for everyone.
Many/most people are born into the right "skin" and never question their identity. Their brains are wired chromosomally, hormonally and chemically in alliance with their genitalia. Transgender persons are not - and regardless of what anyone else here wants to ignorantly expound, there is a wealth of medical evidence to back this up (see Formerly SK posts or do some internet research).
The problems begin when those same persons refuse to see variations in human gender as merely that - variations - and label persons who are not like them and do not fit their societal norms as (take your pick) bad/demented/evil/sick/delusional/dangerous/disgusting etc etc etc etc.
If you were born into a body that fits your brain and conforms to society's norms, thank your lucky stars. And for heaven's sake have a little compassion for your fellow human beings who are not like you. They don't need your damaging, narrow-minded judgments about their worth as a human being.
<<< kittensaver steps off her soapbox >>>
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 12:13:30 GMT -5
here is the thing...I dont' give a shit if she woke up one morning or thought about it for years, I would be devastated if my daughter wanted to be a man. I would immediately get her into therapy and hope I was able to fix whatever was causing her to think that way...because I don't buy into the "I get to pick my gender" that so many of you do. And if I couldn't fix her, I would need tons of therapy to deal with it...or alcohol...yes, tons of therapy and alcohol. And eventually you would come to accept it. You really only have two choices-accept it (while not understanding it (which is okay)) or disown the child. In all seriousness...I'm just glad it isn't something I will ever have to deal with. I honestly have no idea how you can accept something like that, yet I also could never disown my child...
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 12:13:50 GMT -5
How do you explain prehistoric man then? They lived in large groups where men hunted and women cared for the children and gathered food. Maybe they realized that men might have an advantage over women regarding strength, endurance, and speed, and that women are better multitaskers so they'd be better at gathering and child care... Or did they get that from TV? I heard that the men just wanted to get out of the caves so they didn't have to listen to the women complaining about how the family down the path had a bigger cave and how the men in that cave brought home nicer meat. well maybe the men should start listening to their cave wives when they said they talked to the cave woman down the dirt path about where HER cave hubby got the good meat he brings home!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 12:14:31 GMT -5
ie. If having a penis = looking and behaving a certain way. And having a vagina = acting and looking a certain way, we'd live in a stepford universe.
There are components of personality we are born with, but I do not find these to be dependent on having a penis or vagina. Labeling personality traits as male or female are the constructs of society.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 2, 2015 12:17:20 GMT -5
And eventually you would come to accept it. You really only have two choices-accept it (while not understanding it (which is okay)) or disown the child. In all seriousness...I'm just glad it isn't something I will ever have to deal with. I honestly have no idea how you can accept something like that, yet I also could never disown my child... We all want what is best for our children. That is always a given. But at some point the child becomes their own person. If you want to be in your child's life, and (s)he in yours, we sometimes must accept their decisions about themselves. We may not like it. We may not understand it. But we must accept their decisions if we are to maintain a relationship with them. Life ain't easy or pretty. But then, that's life.
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