Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,563
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 16:48:41 GMT -5
Agreed. That said, and I'm not a psychologist and not privy to inside info, but in Jackson's case I wouldn't be surprised to find that, more that 'trying to be more like a woman'... He was just trying to be 'less like a grown man'... He never had a childhood, was living like he wanted to be a kid himself, and his whole sexual identity got wrapped up in that as well... Again, a place where upbringing did him no favors and helped influence the mess he became. At least three of the Jackson children, Michael, Janet and Latoya, had facial surgery. For Janet and Latoya, it was not to make them look like men. As for Michael and his nose.......who the hell knows.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 16:49:16 GMT -5
Most frat boys want to get laid. How likely is that when you're walking around in a dress and telling people you're a lady? If a guy came up to me and told me he's playing dress up to save a few bucks, I'd rat him out immediately. I think it's a despicable thing to do. You want to drink for cheap? Drink at home.
Tom Hanks and Peter Scolari were always dressing up as women and trying to get laid in Bosom Buddies. Aww, sweetie...movies and real life aren't quite the same thing.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,563
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 16:52:33 GMT -5
Tom Hanks and Peter Scolari were always dressing up as women and trying to get laid in Bosom Buddies. Aww, sweetie...movies and real life aren't quite the same thing.
|
|
Robert not Bobby
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jan 29, 2013 17:45:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,392
|
Post by Robert not Bobby on Jun 4, 2015 16:54:17 GMT -5
Apparently mother nature really does screw it up, sometimes. I could not imagine what it would be like to be a man, born into a woman's body...and "she" was born into a man's body.
I wish him/her/it/ well.
But the kind of hormone treatment, facial and body reconfiguration and reconstruction involved, makes me wonder if it is all worth it.
But I've never walked a mile in Jenner's shoes...so, I don't know.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 16:58:32 GMT -5
::Michael Jackson was allegedly attracted to prepubescent boys. To act upon that alleged desire is illegal whether you are straight, gay, transgender and the like. Gender identity has zero meaning in Michael Jackson's alleged case.::
It's only illegal if you're an adult, what if you identify as a child yourself? If a man can identify as a woman why can't an adult identify as a child?
I agree it doesn't have any thing to do with gender identity, but it might have a great deal to do with this idea that people just are whatever they decide they are, even if they actually aren't by most measures. Makes me wonder if we're going to (or if we already have and I'm just not familiar) have the government adopt the standard rather than leaving it up to individual institutions to determine who is legally a man and who is legally a woman.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 21:23:09 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 17:00:23 GMT -5
Can you explain to me the significance of 'legally a man' outside of selective service?
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 17:08:09 GMT -5
They do it to avoid $10 covers, $5 drinks (5-10 of them). yes. They use them over and over again so maybe it pays off. Lets pretend they don't. Let's just say it's a bunch of people in jeans and t-shirts, and the ones who look like guys just say "I'm a lady" (I've never actually seen that, I've only seen them try to dress up). The real issue may simply be the disparate treatment of each gender...but that real life issue isn't actually going away any time soon. I do see the real life implications though, men in combat, only men have to register for the draft, etc. Look at how people attempted to avoid the last draft...if we had that again I promise we'd suddenly see a huge rise in the number of people who idenfity as female and so claim they shouldn't be eligible. Most frat boys want to get laid. How likely is that when you're walking around in a dress and telling people you're a lady? If a guy came up to me and told me he's playing dress up to save a few bucks, I'd rat him out immediately. I think it's a despicable thing to do. You want to drink for cheap? Drink at home.
If you're a frat guy, and you're just out to get laid...you're looking for the kind of girl who thinks having sex with frat guys they just met is their idea of a fun time. Dressing up in a wig and dress is a 100% frat guy thing to do. You're definitely getting laid by some skank if you do that.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 17:08:47 GMT -5
"She's Not There: A Life in Two Genders" written by Jennifer Finney Boylan is a great book about one person's transition from male to female. Reading books like this and talking to people who are transgendered really makes you aware of how fluid and constructed gender roles are. I think one of the reasons that people get upset by transgendered people is because they sort of turn accepted rules on their heads. Like Boylan wondered if she could continue to have a man as a best friend after the transition from male to female. DH is surprised that BIL hugs him all the time. DH views that as very feminine and now that BIL is a male DH expected the hugging to stop. I think it's nice and wonder why men are only allowed to be physically affectionate with women. As a female I can hug men and women. It does make you look at commonly accepted things differently. Perhaps a lot of it has to do with geography. Here men hug and give the Montreal two-cheek-kiss all the time. In Russia men kiss other men three times. It's not looked upon as weird or strange.
|
|
Robert not Bobby
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jan 29, 2013 17:45:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,392
|
Post by Robert not Bobby on Jun 4, 2015 17:10:33 GMT -5
Can you explain to me the significance of 'legally a man' outside of selective service? 46XY chromosomes, a p enis, bad manners a penchant for chopping wood and hunting and an irrational love of football and fast cars..
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 17:15:06 GMT -5
Can you explain to me the significance of 'legally a man' outside of selective service? Insurance rates which are based on life expectancy tables of each gender. As long as gay marriage remains illegal in some places, what constitutes a same-sex couple. I don't think that will be the driver of the government stepping in to make the legal determination though. I can see enough of these individual institutions implementing their own determinations, which won't align with each other, and lawsuits going across both ways by people who feel they are a man or woman but are being treated as the opposite and don't like it...and the government is going to step in to determine legally some way the law will recognize it. Specifically, you can't discriminate based on a myriad of things says the federal government, one of those is sex. That's where I think it's likely going to trigger something...all you need is someone who is transgender to say "they discriminated against me because I'm a woman or because I'm gay" (because transgender isn't a protected class)...and the discriminator to say either "you're not a woman", or "you can't be gay because you're a man who is into women, even though you claim you're a woman who is into women". At least I'm assuming it will be the federally protected clases that drives the whole thing.
|
|
honeysalt
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 3, 2015 21:59:46 GMT -5
Posts: 154
|
Post by honeysalt on Jun 4, 2015 17:35:02 GMT -5
From reading this thread, I am amazed so many of you have gender identity people living in your personal world. I live in the Midwest, and maybe they are all in hiding, but I have asked the in-law families in my circle, and no one knows of any gender identity people living in their circle of influence. We all know gays as friends or relatives in our circle. Looking at this thread, it sounds like they represent an amazingly higher percent of the population than I would of thought possible. I would think it would be closer to, say, .005% of a percent of the population, or even less, but everyone seems to know of at least one. Does anyone have any idea what percent of the population suffers from this? (I am not making light of this issue) There are likely a number of factors at play here. Your social circles are largely decided by your own values and lifestyle choices. I have a couple of friends who are religious conservatives. They are lovely people, but I haven't told them that I was born intersexed (not the same as trans, but both communities are outside the mainstream). I just don't think that information would serve them, me or our relationship very well. In fact, only a handful of people in my life know. While I have friends who are religious and friends who have kids and live in the suburbs, most of my friends are living a different lifestyle in some way. Not necessarily in how they express their sexuality or gender, but certainly in how they organize their housing, relationships, work and leisure activities. I just have more in common with people who are different. We have more shared interests and activities. It is likely that you choose friends who have interests and activities in common with you. Nothing wrong with that, but if you live a in a fairly conservative hetero normative manner, gender different people aren't as likely to be out in your social circles. Age is another factor. With each generation, the stigma seems to be less, and more young people are out. It would have been nearly impossible for my father to have met an openly gender different person when he was in college. Today, it would be more likely to happen than not, even in the Midwest.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,563
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 17:35:39 GMT -5
Can you explain to me the significance of 'legally a man' outside of selective service? 46XY chromosomes, a p enis, bad manners a penchant for chopping wood and hunting and an irrational love of football and fast cars.. Flannel shirts? Or was that a given what with chopping wood and hunting.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 17:48:21 GMT -5
I'm glad you decided to stick around honeysalt. Your input is valuable.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 4, 2015 18:11:02 GMT -5
Apparently mother nature really does screw it up, sometimes. I could not imagine what it would be like to be a man, born into a woman's body...and "she" was born into a man's body. Imagine having a "woman's spirit", then imagine drugging yourself, going through painful and expensive surgeries, and driving a steamroller over relationships with virtually everybody you know, winding up awkward, unattractive, painfully conspicuous, and (in all statistical likelihood) even more unhappy than you were before, and you'll have fathomed the mind of Bruce Jenner. This is all perfectly right and rational--award-worthy, even--in the minds of countless people today, hence it would appear Mother Nature screwed it up worse than you're giving her credit for. My proper respects, meanwhile, go out to Todd Brighton. He gets my award.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Jun 4, 2015 18:29:58 GMT -5
Apparently mother nature really does screw it up, sometimes. I could not imagine what it would be like to be a man, born into a woman's body...and "she" was born into a man's body. Imagine having a "woman's spirit", then imagine drugging yourself, going through painful and expensive surgeries, and driving a steamroller over relationships with virtually everybody you know, winding up awkward, unattractive, painfully conspicuous, and (in all statistical likelihood) even more unhappy than you were before, and you'll have fathomed the mind of Bruce Jenner. This is all perfectly right and rational--award-worthy, even--in the minds of countless people today, hence it would appear Mother Nature screwed it up worse than you're giving her credit for. My proper respects, meanwhile, go out to Todd Brighton. He gets my award. Imagine being a pompous, fundamentalist Richard who has a seeming compulsion to lecture the world on how they are damaged and delusional and evil and wrong and awkward and unattractive and conspicuous and just generally an all-around aberrance of nature who has no way to ever find happiness and peace EXCEPT that what they REALLY need to do is think and believe and act and behave like they do and fit some tight little fundamentalist mold that is determined by a small group of people in order to be an acceptable human being .
|
|
Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
Posts: 18,680
Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
Location: In the middle of enjoying retirement!
Favorite Drink: Zombie Dust from Three Floyd's brewery
Mini-Profile Name Color: e61975
Mini-Profile Text Color: 196ce6
|
Post by Value Buy on Jun 4, 2015 18:34:01 GMT -5
I am confused. Is Kittensaver attacking two posters in post 689 or just Virgil? Just wondering.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Jun 4, 2015 18:36:07 GMT -5
I am confused. Is Kittensaver attacking two posters in post 689 or just Virgil? Just wondering. I'm not attacking anyone.
I'm just imagining what it would be like.
|
|
Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
Posts: 18,680
Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
Location: In the middle of enjoying retirement!
Favorite Drink: Zombie Dust from Three Floyd's brewery
Mini-Profile Name Color: e61975
Mini-Profile Text Color: 196ce6
|
Post by Value Buy on Jun 4, 2015 18:38:40 GMT -5
I am confused. Is Kittensaver attacking two posters in post 689 or just Virgil? Just wondering. I'm not attacking anyone.
I'm just imagining what it would be like.
Sorry, attacking was a bad word choice. Are you referring to two people here, or just Virgil? I had previously seen an earlier post referring to Richard also, and was a little confused. Not sure whose post the other one was from.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Jun 4, 2015 18:42:05 GMT -5
I'm not attacking anyone.
I'm just imagining what it would be like.
Sorry, attacking was a bad word choice. Are you referring to two people here, or just Virgil? I had previously seen an earlier post referring to Richard also, and was a little confused. Not sure whose post the other one was from. I am not referring to anyone. On this Board, calling someone out is akin to attacking them and that is forbidden by the CoC.
Again . . . I was just wondering aloud what it would be like . . .
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 18:48:22 GMT -5
I'm not attacking anyone.
I'm just imagining what it would be like.
Sorry, attacking was a bad word choice. Are you referring to two people here, or just Virgil? I had previously seen an earlier post referring to Richard also, and was a little confused.Not sure whoseI post the other one was from. Please, allow me. "Richard" is what the computer defaults to, when one is referring to a d.i.c.k.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Jun 4, 2015 18:49:59 GMT -5
Correct, weltschmerz. As to kitten's post, I can think of a few public figures who'd fit that bill pretty well. In fact, I used to work with someone who would fit that bill pretty well.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 4, 2015 18:51:22 GMT -5
When she said "a pompous Richard", I believe it was her polite way of saying "a pompous d*ck".I wish him/her/ it/ well. But the kind of hormone treatment, facial and body reconfiguration and reconstruction involved, makes me wonder if it is all worth it. "It"? That's a pretty low (and insulting) description of B/C or any other trans-gender.
Why the hormone treatments, body & face reconstruction? So they can physically look like and live like the person they know themselves to be - in B/C's case, a woman.
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Jun 4, 2015 18:54:19 GMT -5
When she said "a pompous Richard", I believe it was her polite way of saying "a pompous d*ck".I wish him/her/ it/ well. But the kind of hormone treatment, facial and body reconfiguration and reconstruction involved, makes me wonder if it is all worth it. "It"? That's a pretty low (and insulting) description of B/C or any other trans-gender.
Why the hormone treatments, body & face reconstruction? So they can physically look like and live like the person they know themselves to be - in B/C's case, a woman. Ms. Jenner is not an it. Ms. Jenner is a human being. As to whether her transition is worth it, or not - I'd say that's up to her. It's sure not up to you, Robert, nor I.
|
|
Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
Posts: 18,680
Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
Location: In the middle of enjoying retirement!
Favorite Drink: Zombie Dust from Three Floyd's brewery
Mini-Profile Name Color: e61975
Mini-Profile Text Color: 196ce6
|
Post by Value Buy on Jun 4, 2015 18:56:27 GMT -5
Sorry, attacking was a bad word choice. Are you referring to two people here, or just Virgil? I had previously seen an earlier post referring to Richard also, and was a little confused.Not sure whoseI post the other one was from. Please, allow me. "Richard" is what the computer defaults to, when one is referring to a d.i.c.k.
I really have to get out more.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 4, 2015 18:59:21 GMT -5
Please, allow me. "Richard" is what the computer defaults to, when one is referring to a d.i.c.k.
I really have to get out more. You should take Virgil with you when you go. You guys could go on a road trip and meet some new and interesting people.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Jun 4, 2015 19:01:49 GMT -5
I really have to get out more. You should take Virgil with you when you go. You guys could go on a road trip and meet some new and interesting people. "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness." ~ Mark Twain
|
|
mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
Posts: 31,770
Today's Mood: Saddened by Events
Location: Memory Lane
Favorite Drink: Water
|
Post by mmhmm on Jun 4, 2015 19:11:40 GMT -5
Please, allow me. "Richard" is what the computer defaults to, when one is referring to a d.i.c.k.
I really have to get out more. My question would be: Where in kitten's post do you see a reference to Virgil? I've read it twice and I don't see it.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Jun 4, 2015 19:11:44 GMT -5
I really have to get out more. You should take Virgil with you when you go. You guys could go on a road trip and meet some new and interesting people. I volunteer to take YMAM on a weekend field trip to Venice Beach. It would be really fun to watch (figuratively, of course!) some people's heads explode .
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,563
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 19:28:40 GMT -5
I really have to get out more. My question would be: Where in kitten's post do you see a reference to Virgil? I've read it twice and I don't see it. Commies and gays behind every shrub.
|
|
honeysalt
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 3, 2015 21:59:46 GMT -5
Posts: 154
|
Post by honeysalt on Jun 4, 2015 19:30:02 GMT -5
There are men that grow an excess amount of breast tissue. Apparently this is very disturbing and often corrected with surgery. Should we judge them for having this done or should we tell them to just deal with the way their body is made? Should we call them mutilated if they remove the breast tissue? Or is it acceptable because it doesn't mess with anyone's ideas of gender roles? We also perform genital surgery on the vast majority of male infants in this country. Intersexed babies often have their genitals chopped at birth for no medical reason, it is just done to make their genitals look "normal." It doesn't work very well. Many of them suffer loss of sensation and need follow up surgeries for the rest of their life. It is funny how and when we apply "logic" about when genital surgery is good and/or necessary.
|
|