weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 13:40:41 GMT -5
a) 10 years or 120 payments while employed at a qualifying public service job; b) they pay 10% of "disposable income" (AGI minus 150% of the poverty level for their state) toward the loans for this period; c) the remainder is discharged. Thank you.
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Jun 4, 2015 14:12:37 GMT -5
She/he would hit you back....
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 14:18:59 GMT -5
Aside from competitive sports, if you feel you're a female in daily life, then you're a female as far as I'm concerned. I generally share the idea of "call yourself what you want". I think there are other areas though which interest me because they are distinct between men and women. Competitive sports, life insurance, random gender specific things that are probably largely unimportant in the world (who can join a sorority or fraternity, what about all-male or all-female dorms, lady's night at bars, etc), women aren't allowed in combat but how do you define "woman". In daily life, it doesn't matter to me if you call yourself a he, a she, the czar of neptune, whatever...it's all self-defined and pretty meaningless. I can foresee that as we better define these parameters there will be those who seek to take advantage though (can I walk into a bar during "lady's night" and just tell them I identify as a female and if I don't get the same free drinks I'm going to sue them?). Can I avoid combat by saying I identify as a female? Can I force my way into a sorority surrounded by women just because I claim I identify as a woman, or do I need the genitalia as well? There's a big difference between the spectrum of sexual identity and the black/white rules in many institutions that essentially force you into Side A or Side B.
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Jun 4, 2015 14:32:01 GMT -5
if Bruce was really a woman trapped in a man's body, would he be considered a woman winning those medals? And you can't say "no, he was a man" if gender is this fluid, malleable thing. If he believed he was a woman, then he was a woman. On the flip side, does this mean that we will now allow men who "identify" as women to compete as a woman? Can a white man identify as a black man and benefit from affirmative action? Can I identify as a socialite and quit working?
Now that is a great question.
Can you identify as a different race? Is race "fluid" like gender?
What isn't "fluid"??
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Jun 4, 2015 14:44:06 GMT -5
Transgender is a documented medical condition. There have been autopsies done on brains of trans people and their brains look like the brains of their identified gender, not their birth gender. Confused about it? Do some reading on Caster Semenya, the South African woman who competed in the Olympics. She's always been female, but post-win testing showed she had abnormally high testosterone levels because she had previously unknown testes in her body. She had to have surgery/hormones to get within typical female levels so she could continue competing. There is a wealth of information out there about the gender spectrum and how humans fall on it. Not gossip sites, but actual research. For those who are confused, it would be pretty easy to read up on it. Trans youth have a 45% attempted suicide rate. The assault/murder rate of trans adults is horrific. Every year trans people gather in major cities to list the trans who have been murdered in the previous 12 months. No one wants to be trans for kicks and giggles. It's a VERY hard life. Lastly, whether a person has "fixed" their genitals has NOTHING to do with their gender status. Getting bottom surgery can be 50-80K. Hormones can cost 1K/mo. Frankly, medical science hasn't come up with a decent penis yet so female to male trans often don't even want to go that route. That said, their genitals are private to THEM. I wouldn't dream of asking an adult about the condition of their penis or vagina, so I'm not sure why we need to know about Caitlyn's. It is so totally beyond the realm of acceptable behavior. "hey Science - stop doing all that research on cancer!! We've got a couple of fruit loops who need a penis...GO!!"
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 14:57:09 GMT -5
::Lastly, whether a person has "fixed" their genitals has NOTHING to do with their gender status. Getting bottom surgery can be 50-80K. Hormones can cost 1K/mo. Frankly, medical science hasn't come up with a decent penis yet so female to male trans often don't even want to go that route. That said, their genitals are private to THEM. I wouldn't dream of asking an adult about the condition of their penis or vagina, so I'm not sure why we need to know about Caitlyn's. It is so totally beyond the realm of acceptable behavior.::
I think at some point though, some institutions are going to have to come up a standard of how they define men and women though. Genitalia seems to be one of the more obvious methods of that (either gentialia now, genitalia at birth, something).
::Confused about it? Do some reading on Caster Semenya, the South African woman who competed in the Olympics. She's always been female, but post-win testing showed she had abnormally high testosterone levels because she had previously unknown testes in her body. She had to have surgery/hormones to get within typical female levels so she could continue competing. ::
This is actually one of the cases that makes me wonder how we'll define it in the future. Lots of men have higher testosterone levels than other men, as do some women. Are we moving away from "men/women" events and to "testosterone level A, level B, level C, level D". I can't imagine that would be nearly as popular. Are we moving towards limiting testosterone (or other levels) and requiring medication to alter those levels before or during competition?
FWIW, I'm not sure "always been female" necessarily matches up to "had testes in her body". To many, sexual organs would be a significant determining factor in whether she had always been female or not. Because she didn't have to have surgery/hormones just because she was athletically genetically "freakish" (i.e. high testosterone levels), she had to do it because it was caused by the fact that she had testes and the hormone levels were what tipped off that discovery.
The part that I find personally interesting isn't just the gender, it's any time we have people on a huge spectrum of attributes and need to find the cutoff between A & B in order to group them, and how that grouping happens from different organizations that need to do the grouping (because again, i can't imagine Testosterone Group A, B, C, & D would be nearly as interesting to people in the Olympics as "men and women".
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 4, 2015 15:28:45 GMT -5
So if Cairlyn decides to use the ladies locker room, if there is one, how does that get handled? Or does Caitlyn use the men's? Dressed as a woman?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 15:33:42 GMT -5
Aside from competitive sports, if you feel you're a female in daily life, then you're a female as far as I'm concerned. I generally share the idea of "call yourself what you want". I think there are other areas though which interest me because they are distinct between men and women. Competitive sports, life insurance, random gender specific things that are probably largely unimportant in the world (who can join a sorority or fraternity, what about all-male or all-female dorms, lady's night at bars, etc), women aren't allowed in combat but how do you define "woman". In daily life, it doesn't matter to me if you call yourself a he, a she, the czar of neptune, whatever...it's all self-defined and pretty meaningless. I can foresee that as we better define these parameters there will be those who seek to take advantage though (can I walk into a bar during "lady's night" and just tell them I identify as a female and if I don't get the same free drinks I'm going to sue them?). Can I avoid combat by saying I identify as a female? Can I force my way into a sorority surrounded by women just because I claim I identify as a woman, or do I need the genitalia as well? There's a big difference between the spectrum of sexual identity and the black/white rules in many institutions that essentially force you into Side A or Side B. Your women aren't allowed in combat? Still? They are, here. Most of the dorms here are unisex. How many times has a man walked into a bar on Lady's Night and demanded cheap drinks? It doesn't happen. In any case, if you sue, you'll have to prove that you're living as a female, and if you can't, they'll nail your testes to the wall in court. So, good luck with that. I think you're looking for problems. As society evolves, we'll figure it out.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 15:35:05 GMT -5
So if Cairlyn decides to use the ladies locker room, if there is one, how does that get handled? Or does Caitlyn use the men's? Dressed as a woman? How? She opens the door and walks in. No biggie, as far as I'm concerned.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 4, 2015 15:37:05 GMT -5
From reading this thread, I am amazed so many of you have gender identity people living in your personal world. I live in the Midwest, and maybe they are all in hiding, but I have asked the in-law families in my circle, and no one knows of any gender identity people living in their circle of influence. We all know gays as friends or relatives in our circle. Looking at this thread, it sounds like they represent an amazingly higher percent of the population than I would of thought possible. I would think it would be closer to, say, .005% of a percent of the population, or even less, but everyone seems to know of at least one. Does anyone have any idea what percent of the population suffers from this? (I am not making light of this issue)
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 15:38:09 GMT -5
::How many times has a man walked into a bar on Lady's Night and demanded cheap drinks? It doesn't happen. In any case, if you sue, you'll have to prove that you're living as a female, and if you can't, they'll nail your testes to the wall in court. So, good luck with that.::
Happens plenty, they dress up in dresses and wigs and walk in wanting free drinks. Happens in college towns all the time actually.
What does "living as a female" mean? How is it any different from living as a male? And why can't i feel like I'm a female sometimes and feel like I'm a male others?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 4, 2015 15:48:52 GMT -5
As long as you're not in the wrong bathroom or locker/dressing room, it's all good.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 4, 2015 15:50:08 GMT -5
There've been times when I had penis envy. Using some restrooms make me wish the world was my toilet. Never waiting in huge lines again? Bliss.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 15:51:36 GMT -5
::How many times has a man walked into a bar on Lady's Night and demanded cheap drinks? It doesn't happen. In any case, if you sue, you'll have to prove that you're living as a female, and if you can't, they'll nail your testes to the wall in court. So, good luck with that.:: Happens plenty, they dress up in dresses and wigs and walk in wanting free drinks. Happens in college towns all the time actually. What does "living as a female" mean? How is it any different from living as a male? And why can't i feel like I'm a female sometimes and feel like I'm a male others? Playing "dress-up" is hardly the same as being trans.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 4, 2015 15:53:03 GMT -5
I think we are in the same state, and I am friends with two people who have undergone gender reassignment. Both live in my city of 50K. I knew one before his transition, so that was pretty obvious -- but if my other friend hadn't told me she was born a male, I'd never have known.
Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if you knew more transgendered people than you think. They're not all wearing it on their sleeve (or on the cover of Vanity Fair).
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 15:53:30 GMT -5
There've been times when I had penis envy. Using some restrooms make me wish the world was my toilet. Never waiting in huge lines again? Bliss. You've never walked into a mens' room when the line for the ladies' was too long? We do that all the time. Nobody bats an eye and the men don't have a hissy fit because a girl walked in.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 4, 2015 15:54:29 GMT -5
I do have another question, and many here will say I am stirring the pot, but I am not. Everyone realizes Michael Jackson must have had physical relationships with young boys. In his later years, it was obvious he was also having surgery, if not taking medication to make him "more feminine". He was considered a "pervert" by many people, even on this board.
Did he suffer from gender identity, as well as being a pedophile? If he was suffering from gender identity crisis, should his condition be considered just an abnormality, with a subset disorder, or something the public feels is totally wrong because of his liking little boys. If he was both, where does public opinion draw a line in acceptance of these cases? Today, the answer would be he was a sick sick puppy. Three, five, years from now, thinking could change and it might be considered a sever gender case, where it is not his fault, but, nature's fault.
I know his situation is different (I think, I know) from what we are discussing, but should we still keep these two issues separate? I know he is probably a special case due to growing up in music industry with a bad role model father, but I am thinking he suffered from gender identity crisis, but never received a pass from the public or the national press, as Caityln is getting.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 4, 2015 16:03:11 GMT -5
I refused to listen to Michael Jacksons music when he was alive because I didn't want to support his behaviour in any way. Child molestation is totally different than being transhendered. Well in fairness, a lot of his music was written well before these issues came up. It still begs the question was he also a transgender?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 16:11:47 GMT -5
::How many times has a man walked into a bar on Lady's Night and demanded cheap drinks? It doesn't happen. In any case, if you sue, you'll have to prove that you're living as a female, and if you can't, they'll nail your testes to the wall in court. So, good luck with that.:: Happens plenty, they dress up in dresses and wigs and walk in wanting free drinks. Happens in college towns all the time actually. What does "living as a female" mean? How is it any different from living as a male? And why can't i feel like I'm a female sometimes and feel like I'm a male others? Playing "dress-up" is hardly the same as being trans. You're the bouncer at the bar, how are you going to determine which people are "playing dress up" and which ones are trans then? Who is a woman and who isn't when they all claim to be women?
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 4, 2015 16:14:47 GMT -5
I refused to listen to Michael Jacksons music when he was alive because I didn't want to support his behaviour in any way. Child molestation is totally different than being transhendered. Well in fairness, a lot of his music was written well before these issues came up. It still begs the question was he also a transgender? There is a chance he could have been I suppose. Or he could have had lots of other issues. Who knows. I wouldn't bet he had a clue either. I saw one of his sister's old video's by accident the other day and was all "Her brother was trying to look like her!" but I think she doesn't have her original nose either so.....
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 16:18:09 GMT -5
Easy to make at home. I do. You don't catch them in the garden yourself, do you? I would need them already dead and shell-less. Noooooo. The land snails around here are about the half the size of your baby finger fingernail. And I at least don't eat slugs. I order them shell-less and canned from Amazon. Order the shells separately. Then stuff snails into the shells along with butter, garlic and shallots at home.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 16:19:02 GMT -5
Playing "dress-up" is hardly the same as being trans. You're the bouncer at the bar, how are you going to determine which people are "playing dress up" and which ones are trans then? Who is a woman and who isn't when they all claim to be women? Well, I don't know. It's a ridiculous thing and I've never heard of it before. Guys really put on a wigs. dresses, makeup and heels to get $2.00 off a beer? Is everyone that poor? I would think if they are, they'd drink in the dorms. Save a lot more $ that way. How did they pay for the wigs, big dresses, giant high-heeled shoes and makeup in the first place?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 16:25:01 GMT -5
Now I'm feeling like trekking out for chowdah for lunch today but I'm just too lazy to go anywhere that isn't directly downstairs from the office... I really, really, miss fried whole clams. Last time I had them was at Legal Seafood at Logan Airport. I made sure I got to the airport early and had enough time before my flight home to have a big plate of fried whole clams, bellies and all. It has been 11 years since that delicious meal.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 16:28:13 GMT -5
You're the bouncer at the bar, how are you going to determine which people are "playing dress up" and which ones are trans then? Who is a woman and who isn't when they all claim to be women? Well, I don't know. It's a ridiculous thing and I've never heard of it before. Guys really put on a wigs. dresses, makeup and heels to get $2.00 off a beer? Is everyone that poor? I would think if they are, they'd drink in the dorms. Save a lot more $ that way. How did they pay for the wigs, big dresses, giant high-heeled shoes and makeup in the first place?
They do it to avoid $10 covers, $5 drinks (5-10 of them). yes. They use them over and over again so maybe it pays off. Lets pretend they don't. Let's just say it's a bunch of people in jeans and t-shirts, and the ones who look like guys just say "I'm a lady" (I've never actually seen that, I've only seen them try to dress up). The real issue may simply be the disparate treatment of each gender...but that real life issue isn't actually going away any time soon. I do see the real life implications though, men in combat, only men have to register for the draft, etc. Look at how people attempted to avoid the last draft...if we had that again I promise we'd suddenly see a huge rise in the number of people who idenfity as female and so claim they shouldn't be eligible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 16:30:34 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure one of the young people (late teens early 20s) who work at the community center is. I honestly don't know where in the process of which gender to gender, or maybe inter... I'm sorry I don't remember the term... as someone mentioned.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 16:39:26 GMT -5
I do have another question, and many here will say I am stirring the pot, but I am not. Everyone realizes Michael Jackson must have had physical relationships with young boys. In his later years, it was obvious he was also having surgery, if not taking medication to make him "more feminine". He was considered a "pervert" by many people, even on this board. Did he suffer from gender identity, as well as being a pedophile? If he was suffering from gender identity crisis, should his condition be considered just an abnormality, with a subset disorder, or something the public feels is totally wrong because of his liking little boys. If he was both, where does public opinion draw a line in acceptance of these cases? Today, the answer would be he was a sick sick puppy. Three, five, years from now, thinking could change and it might be considered a sever gender case, where it is not his fault, but, nature's fault. I know his situation is different (I think, I know) from what we are discussing, but should we still keep these two issues separate? I know he is probably a special case due to growing up in music industry with a bad role model father, but I am thinking he suffered from gender identity crisis, but never received a pass from the public or the national press, as Caityln is getting. Michael Jackson was allegedly attracted to prepubescent boys. To act upon that alleged desire is illegal whether you are straight, gay, transgender and the like. Gender identity has zero meaning in Michael Jackson's alleged case.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 16:42:05 GMT -5
Well, I don't know. It's a ridiculous thing and I've never heard of it before. Guys really put on a wigs. dresses, makeup and heels to get $2.00 off a beer? Is everyone that poor? I would think if they are, they'd drink in the dorms. Save a lot more $ that way. How did they pay for the wigs, big dresses, giant high-heeled shoes and makeup in the first place?
They do it to avoid $10 covers, $5 drinks (5-10 of them). yes. They use them over and over again so maybe it pays off. Lets pretend they don't. Let's just say it's a bunch of people in jeans and t-shirts, and the ones who look like guys just say "I'm a lady" (I've never actually seen that, I've only seen them try to dress up). The real issue may simply be the disparate treatment of each gender...but that real life issue isn't actually going away any time soon. I do see the real life implications though, men in combat, only men have to register for the draft, etc. Look at how people attempted to avoid the last draft...if we had that again I promise we'd suddenly see a huge rise in the number of people who idenfity as female and so claim they shouldn't be eligible. Most frat boys want to get laid. How likely is that when you're walking around in a dress and telling people you're a lady? If a guy came up to me and told me he's playing dress up to save a few bucks, I'd rat him out immediately. I think it's a despicable thing to do. You want to drink for cheap? Drink at home.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 16:44:11 GMT -5
Agreed. That said, and I'm not a psychologist and not privy to inside info, but in Jackson's case I wouldn't be surprised to find that, more that 'trying to be more like a woman'... He was just trying to be 'less like a grown man'... He never had a childhood, was living like he wanted to be a kid himself, and his whole sexual identity got wrapped up in that as well... Again, a place where upbringing did him no favors and helped influence the mess he became.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 16:45:42 GMT -5
They do it to avoid $10 covers, $5 drinks (5-10 of them). yes. They use them over and over again so maybe it pays off. Lets pretend they don't. Let's just say it's a bunch of people in jeans and t-shirts, and the ones who look like guys just say "I'm a lady" (I've never actually seen that, I've only seen them try to dress up). The real issue may simply be the disparate treatment of each gender...but that real life issue isn't actually going away any time soon. I do see the real life implications though, men in combat, only men have to register for the draft, etc. Look at how people attempted to avoid the last draft...if we had that again I promise we'd suddenly see a huge rise in the number of people who idenfity as female and so claim they shouldn't be eligible. Most frat boys want to get laid. How likely is that when you're walking around in a dress and telling people you're a lady? If a guy came up to me and told me he's playing dress up to save a few bucks, I'd rat him out immediately. I think it's a despicable thing to do. You want to drink for cheap? Drink at home.
Tom Hanks and Peter Scolari were always dressing up as women and trying to get laid in Bosom Buddies.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Jun 4, 2015 16:47:05 GMT -5
I don't really understand the thinking in these things, but I hope she's happy. She's kind of pretty, I guess.
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