tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 3, 2015 21:40:28 GMT -5
I would ban them all. Debate the post, not the poster. Any time Paul starts a thread, over half the posts are just people mocking Paul. It doesn't matter how interesting the subject might be to others. Bring back the 3 day ban so if people feel compelled to call **** an asshole, they can choose to do so and get it out of their system. The problem is that it's so absurdly easy to flout the rules without crossing the line. "Another crap article by Paul." Let's say this crosses the line and we ban it. Then how about? "Another worthless article by Paul." Do we ban that? Say we do. Then: "Another worthless article and trumped-up summary." Let's ban that too. "This article is worthless, and the summary is totally inaccurate." Still too harsh. Let's ban that. "I fail to see the value of this article, and I question the accuracy of the summary." OK. That sounds nice and academic. We'll let that stay. We're saying the exact same thing as we were before, but we're being 'nice' about it. Alas, the thread is still packed to the gunnels with comments paraphrasing "Another crap article by Paul.", but at least it's 'nice' detritus rather than the plain vanilla kind. Anyway... we're off topic. I would allow them all as well. It seems fairly intuitive that people who are confident in their own beliefs don't really care what others think of them, so will not care what form that disagreement takes. What I do care about, however, is that the debate itself be honest in the sense that both sides are arguing it fairly and truthfully. That is the only real way to make progress in a discussion. And that is exactly why Paul is so often mocked. He's a smart man, so it is befuddling why he does not just make honest threads and arguments. He'll still get beat, because he is usually wrong, but at least we could respect him for it. He is instead driven to bash liberals (or anyone who doesn't agree with him), or government, or whatever else he happens to have on his mind at that moment, and will go to whatever lengths necessary to do so (including making stuff up, as in any of his posts about what liberals believe.) Getting mocked or insulted is, to him, simply the cost of doing business. He doesn't care any more about the criticism than you or I do.
And 'nice' -- is overrated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 22:00:09 GMT -5
The last one was you. I remember when it was mostly conservatives, and I remember a time when there was more balance and people. To be fair, there are a lot of fiscal conservatives here. It's social issues where they look 'liberal'... Something politicians still don't seem to grasp.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 3, 2015 22:11:38 GMT -5
The last one was you. I remember when it was mostly conservatives, and I remember a time when there was more balance and people. To be fair, there are a lot of fiscal conservatives here. It's social issues where they look 'liberal'... Something politicians still don't seem to grasp. I'm probably one of the few social conservatives on here. But I vote with my wallet. I guess I'm a hypocrit
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honeysalt
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Post by honeysalt on Jun 3, 2015 23:29:17 GMT -5
what does "fluid"mean in this context? That a person can change gender identity and change back? I guess I believe that a person can have the mind of a different sex then the body, but I think that is from chemical and hormonal or whatever stuff that happens why the person is being made in the mother's body. Are you saying it can change after birth? No, I'm saying what you're saying - - that gender identity is mostly a matter of pre-natal biological formation. It is the almost-automatic "social constructs" we place on gender that can be tricky. What's the first question we all ask when a baby is born? We want to know its gender so we have a social and cultural framework for relating to it. When we hear "it's a boy," most of us have an automatic set of assumptions that go with it. But just because a baby is visually born with male genitalia does not mean the baby identifies with being Male. That comes later - and sometimes it doesn't come at all (or it comes on with a vengeance of testosterone). There are all those other medical (chemical/hormonal/chromosomal) factors at work.
If you peruse any academically sound, graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality (or medical school texts on the same subject), you will learn that all fetuses essentially begin as female (the testes/ovaries are undifferentiated). It is a rush of male hormones as triggered by DNA that turns undifferentiated reproductive organs into male organs - - and male genitalia development begins. But you will also read (and see in photos) that A LOT can go wrong along the way. Way more babies than you would think (but still a small percentage) are born hermaphroditic or with hermaphroditic characteristics because something went chemically/hormonally "wrong" at a critical time along the way to differentiation. Doctors - God love them! - are quick to want to do surgery to spare parents and their children the social stigma that comes along with being "different." So in the past, many quick surgeries were done based on visual inspection of a baby's genitalia so that parents could go home with a "normal" child. And sometimes their guesses were wrong. Today DNA testing can be readily done to determine gender instead of the former visual guess.
All of which is to say that it is the "stuff" we can't see that determines gender identity, not just the organs we're born with and the social/cultural assumptions that come with it. Make sense, yes/no?
Coming out of lurkerdome to say thank you to Kittensaver for the science in this post. I am an intersexed person (born with ambiguous genitalia). I am not a hermaphrodite. That word is no longer used by the medical community because most intersexed conditions result from the incomplete masculanisation described by Kittensaver. We don't have both sets of genitals, we have genitals somewhere in between male and female. The medical community now uses "disorders of sexual development" to describe people like me. I choose intersexed because I believe I am blessed with male and female qualities, not that I am "disordered." I have had genital surgery, but I was lucky enough to have parents that waited until just before I hit puberty to let me make that choice. The surgery I had was medically necessary. If you saw me on the street, you would assume I was a female, which is how I live my life from a cultural standpoint. In reality, hormonally, biologically and emotionally, I am am in between the sexes, or intersexed. Strange as it may seem, I consider myself one of the lucky ones. Understanding men and women as I do is a huge benefit in the workplace. Being androgenic allows me to stay lean while eating like a horse and allows me to put on muscle easily. I don't want children, and I am not able to have them. In addition, while I am married to a straight man, I don't really have to worry about my sexual identity. I could partner with anyone and not have it impact my identity, since I don't have a gender binary identity. Identity is highly personal. I get why some posters want to subscribe to the gender binary that we have culturally constructed, and I obviously get why others have chosen to have a view that includes people outside that cultural construction. Finally, I fully support the standpoint that modern tolerance only applies to those of us who are different. It makes sense that straight people with kids want to have straight children who also have kids. It is just easier to relate to those who are like us, which is why it is such a blessing for me to be both masculine an feminine.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jun 4, 2015 0:00:48 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 4, 2015 2:19:40 GMT -5
Welcome, honeysalt!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 4, 2015 7:06:34 GMT -5
I sometimes think we way overcomplicate things.
But I don't eat pork and I like mayo, so what the heck do I know....
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 4, 2015 7:19:15 GMT -5
I sometimes think we way overcomplicate things. But I don't eat pork and I like mayo, so what the heck do I know.... If we ever meet again I'll bring a jar of Hellmann's and a spoon as a peace offering.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 4, 2015 7:24:43 GMT -5
They are really going to give Jenner the Espy award over Lauren Hill? Wow.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 4, 2015 7:35:23 GMT -5
That photo is photoshopped to extreme measures. I highly, highly doubt she is really that "pretty." The face doesn't even look real. facial reconstruction was also done (cosmetic surgery with bone shaping). Isn't it amazing what can be done these days?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 4, 2015 7:39:54 GMT -5
I don't know. Society invests a lot of time and expense in training doctors. Seems like maybe there is more important work for them to be doing rather than sucking fat out of celebrities?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 4, 2015 7:44:02 GMT -5
I don't know. Society invests a lot of time and expense in training doctors. Seems like maybe there is more important work for them to be doing rather than sucking fat out of celebrities? I know, right?! I mean that's all they do!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 4, 2015 8:01:49 GMT -5
I sometimes think we way overcomplicate things. But I don't eat pork and I like mayo, so what the heck do I know.... If we ever meet again I'll bring a jar of Hellmann's and a spoon as a peace offering. Awwww, I think I am falling in love with you all over again. And yes, I do hope we meet, even if I have to leave my rude little suckers at home
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 8:02:28 GMT -5
They are really going to give Jenner the Espy award over Lauren Hill? Wow. All Lauren Hill did was raise money for cancer research while she was dying. Jenner plastered himself all over the media for fame and fortune...he's a global hero really.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 4, 2015 8:03:00 GMT -5
Well, now that he is a she, she is not allowed to the club he was playing at for years.
That's going to open a whole other conversation for many
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 8:31:45 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 8:35:07 GMT -5
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 4, 2015 8:38:15 GMT -5
They must have changed their opinion. that's not where they started
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 4, 2015 8:39:49 GMT -5
That photo is photoshopped to extreme measures. I highly, highly doubt she is really that "pretty." The face doesn't even look real. facial reconstruction was also done (cosmetic surgery with bone shaping). Isn't it amazing what can be done these days? I read an article, which I disagreed with in many ways but it said: The message that the only way this person could show her 'true self' was with surgery, large amounts of make-up and heavy handed photoshop is a step backwards for women. We have been trying to tell people they are beautiful they way they are, and now we are saying that some people might need lots of work, lots of product, and digital enhancement to be beautiful. The rest of the article was a bigoted rant against gays, trans gendered, feminists and liberals. I'm surprised he didn't find a way to throw Mexicans under the bus while he was at it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 4, 2015 8:47:44 GMT -5
Getting mocked or insulted is, to him, simply the cost of doing business. He doesn't care any more about the criticism than you or I do. I know I've said this before, but he's had you on 'ignore' for going on three years now, and he doesn't peek. I realize at least a part of "Paul, you rotten misinforming sunofagun..." is posturing, but that had better be worth it to you, because you might as well be screaming into an empty paint bucket. If I was Paul and you were you, I'd probably have you on 'ignore' too. (That's assuming I didn't find your frequent paroxysms comical, which I probably would. ) "Tarnfarn it, Paul! Ya crocked the bejabber agin! Ya spun da lace o' da blind ram's ass! Ya be bajiggerin' with facts ain't no man oughta be bajiggerin' wit. I... I... *wheeze* Paul, you dadgum... You... Oh, pass me muh pills, I got me muh ragin' sweats."
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 8:48:17 GMT -5
They must have changed their opinion. that's not where they started From the link I provided: “The club was never contacted and had no input into stories about Caitlyn Jenner, and it shows,” the statement read. “Reporting of discord between Ms. Jenner and this club is entirely false. Bruce Jenner has and continues to be a valued and long term member at the club.” So someone is either lying (the country club) or making up stories (TMZ or who ever posted the country club problem).
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 4, 2015 8:50:20 GMT -5
TMZ would never demean their journalistic integrity by making up a story. And a country club full of rich white bastards would never lie to the general public. This is a real quandary.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 4, 2015 8:53:39 GMT -5
Well, now that he is a she, she is not allowed to the club he was playing at for years. That's going to open a whole other conversation for many Well, technically she is still a he, and he says he "likes" women, so....... It's all good with the members committee. I wonder how many members will embrace the new lifestyle, or let Ms. Jenner know how they really feel and hurt her feelings.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 4, 2015 9:42:58 GMT -5
Them's fightin' words here in the South! Only let me be clear that only the TN tomato based sauce is acceptable, none of that South Carolina mustard based baby poop sauce, and none of abomination that Texas does to their meat and then calls BBQ. And don't get me started on that straight-from-hell alien life form that is a McDonald's McRibb - I'm pretty sure that's some soylent green shit dipped in ketchup sweetened with left over candy corn and peeps. Talk all you want about Biblical sin and men laying with men you want - but DO NOT talk shit about BBQ sauce. I'll clarify, if we're talking actual homemade BBQ sauce going on legit smoked meat like pulled pork or ribs, yes I'm in What I'm opposed to is a big squirt of Kraft BBQ sauce on a hamburger or whatever people put that stuff on.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 4, 2015 9:56:50 GMT -5
Well, technically she is still a he, and he says he "likes" women, so....... It's all good with the members committee. I wonder how many members will embrace the new lifestyle, or let Ms. Jenner know how they really feel and hurt her feelings. Of course each club is different, but if it's like the YC I belong to they'll welcome Caitlyn after they get over the initial awkwardness of how to change their view of someone they've previously only known a certain way. We're not in an especially progressive, liberal area (SW Florida - note, SW, not Miami) and our club specifically welcomes, accepts and includes gay couples - even down to including language like that in the club bylaws that the members voted on. I do not know if we have any transgender members because I do not know 99.9% of the other members' personal genital history, but from what I've seen regarding how the club handles gays and nontraditional members/families, transgender members would be welcome as well.
YCs can be a hotbed of petty gossip, snobbery and (horrible but true) racism, but it's not considered acceptable to be homophobic or narrow minded. YC members are more likely to judge each other on who's tacky or who has poor boat handling skills.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 4, 2015 9:57:39 GMT -5
Them's fightin' words here in the South! Only let me be clear that only the TN tomato based sauce is acceptable, none of that South Carolina mustard based baby poop sauce, and none of abomination that Texas does to their meat and then calls BBQ. And don't get me started on that straight-from-hell alien life form that is a McDonald's McRibb - I'm pretty sure that's some soylent green shit dipped in ketchup sweetened with left over candy corn and peeps. Talk all you want about Biblical sin and men laying with men you want - but DO NOT talk shit about BBQ sauce. Up heah we love BBQ. Any BBQ.
But our native cooking is pretty bad. Evah had a New England boiled dinner?
One nice thing about it. It only makes you want to eat for procreation. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
I did have something called a lobster roll when I was in CT last year. Curious, interesting, but I'd rather eat a brat. Only having eaten one, though, I might have picked the one bad, touristy lobster roll place around. Haven't had boiled dinner. Was dismayed that the seafood place we ate at had excellent shrimp but no hushpuppies, but not as dismayed as I was when the Canadian restaurant we stopped at attempted to pass of tea powder as iced tea. I'm going to MA the first week of July, what would you suggest as a speciality?
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cael
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Post by cael on Jun 4, 2015 10:00:27 GMT -5
Oh god. If you get a good lobster roll at a legit local place.... Where in MA will you be? All I'll say is CLAM CHOWDAH. If you'll be on the North shore shoot me a PM and I can recommend some spots.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2015 10:02:03 GMT -5
Up heah we love BBQ. Any BBQ.
But our native cooking is pretty bad. Evah had a New England boiled dinner?
One nice thing about it. It only makes you want to eat for procreation. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
I did have something called a lobster roll when I was in CT last year. Curious, interesting, but I'd rather eat a brat. Only having eaten one, though, I might have picked the one bad, touristy lobster roll place around. Haven't had boiled dinner. Was dismayed that the seafood place we ate at had excellent shrimp but no hushpuppies, but not as dismayed as I was when the Canadian restaurant we stopped at attempted to pass of tea powder as iced tea. I'm going to MA the first week of July, what would you suggest as a speciality? Steamers (small steamed clams with drawn butter) or mussels in any number of sauces (I prefer a light mustard and white wine sauce).
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 4, 2015 10:03:43 GMT -5
Oh god. If you get a good lobster roll at a legit local place.... Where in MA will you be? All I'll say is CLAM CHOWDAH. If you'll be on the North shore shoot me a PM and I can recommend some spots. or Cape Cod, shoot me one. I'm learning my way around those places I didn't already know
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2015 10:04:09 GMT -5
Well, technically she is still a he, and he says he "likes" women, so....... It's all good with the members committee. I wonder how many members will embrace the new lifestyle, or let Ms. Jenner know how they really feel and hurt her feelings. Of course each club is different, but if it's like the YC I belong to they'll welcome Caitlyn after they get over the initial awkwardness of how to change their view of someone they've previously only known a certain way. We're not in an especially progressive, liberal area (SW Florida - note, SW, not Miami) and our club specifically welcomes, accepts and includes gay couples - even down to including language like that in the club bylaws that the members voted on. I do not know if we have any transgender members because I do not know 99.9% of the other members' personal genital history, but from what I've seen regarding how the club handles gays and nontraditional members/families, transgender members would be welcome as well.
YCs can be a hotbed of petty gossip, snobbery and (horrible but true) racism, but it's not considered acceptable to be homophobic or narrow minded. YC members are more likely to judge each other on who's tacky or who has poor boat handling skills.
True, but the fact that I have a penis makes me inherently better at driving a car...wouldn't the same apply for boats as well?
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