Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 3, 2015 12:17:41 GMT -5
Sorry. Got off topic. I have to go now. My stupiduglytastelessslimy pasta salad is calling my name.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 12:17:59 GMT -5
I'm more or less saying that this is one of the ways in which we are making changes to the human race. To me it's just one more drop in the proverbial bucket, but there are already a lot of drops in there. We already do stuff that I'm against from an evolutionary perspective (like using medicine to help women past a certain age having kids for the first time, how we accommodate people with life threatening allergies to common allergens, how people can sit on their asses and eat crap but can take pills to lower blood pressure and regulate blood sugar, etc.). I don't know.... I feel like we are getting weaker as a species, and if some huge catastrophe happens and people will have to survive similar to how we were as cavemen, most of us wouldn't make it. Transgender surgery is doing nothing to change the human race or interfere with evolution. Not any more than a nose job. If someone has a giant honker and has surgery to make it smaller, it does nothing in terms of genetics. Their children will still likely be born with big noses. Having a nose job doesn't mean your children will have cute and perky noses. Same with trans surgery. It doesn't change your genetics, in any way, shape or form. It's purely cosmetic, like a nose job, but it makes a world of difference to the person living in that particular skin. If you have an argument regarding how trans surgery is changing human evolutionary patterns, I would very much like to hear it. Maybe I'll learn something.
you must think I'm pretty stupid if you felt like that was a relevant answer to my post.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 3, 2015 12:18:57 GMT -5
Sorry. Got off topic. I have to go now. My stupiduglytastelessslimy pasta salad is calling my name. <<tosses some beef jerky to GEL and runs like a cow running from the shot gun>>
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 3, 2015 12:19:19 GMT -5
Transgender surgery is doing nothing to change the human race or interfere with evolution. Not any more than a nose job. If someone has a giant honker and has surgery to make it smaller, it does nothing in terms of genetics. Their children will still likely be born with big noses. Having a nose job doesn't mean your children will have cute and perky noses. Same with trans surgery. It doesn't change your genetics, in any way, shape or form. It's purely cosmetic, like a nose job, but it makes a world of difference to the person living in that particular skin. If you have an argument regarding how trans surgery is changing human evolutionary patterns, I would very much like to hear it. Maybe I'll learn something.
you must think I'm pretty stupid if you felt like that was a relevant answer to my post. THAT's not why I think you are stupid
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 3, 2015 12:20:31 GMT -5
I just might at some point. I'll put up photos of cute piggies, exposees of their hellish living conditions on factory farms, and animal rights propaganda about how incredibly intelligent and loving they are. Then I'll move on to the particular health risks associated with pork, the new research linking pork consumption with various brain and kidney ailments, and finally the big one: pigs as vectors for disease. Pigs will be the death of us all saith the CDC. Very likely starting in China, where pigs live in close proximity to man. I'm not entirely sure why, but pigs are apparently the premiere way for disease to migrate from other animals into humans. I'd top it off with statistics on pork consumption in the US, and the record-setting 2014 US obesity stats. And then I'd post some more pictures of cute, helpless piggies. So don't push me, man. Don't push me. But the fact that you don't is my point. You have self selected LGBT issues to speak out against. The Bible says it is an abomination is the crutch to lean on, but it is not the reason to speak out against it. The reason is because it is something you don't like, not something the Bible doesn't like. If it was simply a matter of the people acting outside of the teachings of the Bible, the pork issue (amongst others) should be a much bigger issue. Both issues affect you in similar ways. Both are similarly separating people from teachings of the Bible. Yet only one is spoken out against. And it isn't an issue of availability to speak out against LGBT versus pork. There are more posts on this board extolling the consumption of bacon than of the virtues of being transgender. There are more people in the community at large that eat pork than are LGBT or even those that support the LGBT community. So, in theory, counselling those against eating pork should have a bigger effect than counseling those against LGBT. But even in light of all those things, it is LGBT issues that receive the most outspokenness. It is any wonder that the LGBT community feels unduly discriminated against? It is nothing but people personally not liking or approving of their choices and trying to enforce their feelings on them. Say what? the Bible bans pork? And this my friends is why I'm not religious....because in my house we celebrate Easter and Christmas with ham!
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 3, 2015 12:26:27 GMT -5
But the fact that you don't is my point. You have self selected LGBT issues to speak out against. The Bible says it is an abomination is the crutch to lean on, but it is not the reason to speak out against it. The reason is because it is something you don't like, not something the Bible doesn't like. If it was simply a matter of the people acting outside of the teachings of the Bible, the pork issue (amongst others) should be a much bigger issue. Both issues affect you in similar ways. Both are similarly separating people from teachings of the Bible. Yet only one is spoken out against. And it isn't an issue of availability to speak out against LGBT versus pork. There are more posts on this board extolling the consumption of bacon than of the virtues of being transgender. There are more people in the community at large that eat pork than are LGBT or even those that support the LGBT community. So, in theory, counselling those against eating pork should have a bigger effect than counseling those against LGBT. But even in light of all those things, it is LGBT issues that receive the most outspokenness. It is any wonder that the LGBT community feels unduly discriminated against? It is nothing but people personally not liking or approving of their choices and trying to enforce their feelings on them. Say what? the Bible bans pork? And this my friends is why I'm not religious....because in my house we celebrate Easter and Christmas with ham! What do you think that whole kosher thing is?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 3, 2015 12:27:45 GMT -5
Transgender surgery is doing nothing to change the human race or interfere with evolution. Not any more than a nose job. If someone has a giant honker and has surgery to make it smaller, it does nothing in terms of genetics. Their children will still likely be born with big noses. Having a nose job doesn't mean your children will have cute and perky noses. Same with trans surgery. It doesn't change your genetics, in any way, shape or form. It's purely cosmetic, like a nose job, but it makes a world of difference to the person living in that particular skin. If you have an argument regarding how trans surgery is changing human evolutionary patterns, I would very much like to hear it. Maybe I'll learn something.
you must think I'm pretty stupid if you felt like that was a relevant answer to my post. It's right there in your post. "I'm more or less saying that this is one of the ways in which we are making changes to the human race." How is trans surgery making changes to the human race? Either more or less. I'll take either.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 12:28:00 GMT -5
did that come from the Old Testament? Because I know basically all of Judaism is from there and some of the ideas in Islam are in there as well. Judaism and Islam ban pork, but I don't recall Christianity banning pork later. I'm also not a theological scholar.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 12:30:20 GMT -5
you must think I'm pretty stupid if you felt like that was a relevant answer to my post. It's right there in your post. "I'm more or less saying that this is one of the ways in which we are making changes to the human race." How is trans surgery making changes to the human race? Either more or less. I'll take either.
I made posts after that which clarified my view because I realize that what I said in the post you quoted may not have made a lot of sense. Would you like to go back and read those?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 3, 2015 12:33:50 GMT -5
Say what? the Bible bans pork? And this my friends is why I'm not religious....because in my house we celebrate Easter and Christmas with ham! What do you think that whole kosher thing is? Something Jews have to worry about...I knew I didn't like Jews
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 3, 2015 12:36:12 GMT -5
The piece that always makes my brain want to explode is "how do you know you identify as a woman"? How do you know what a woman's brain is like to know that's you? I completely get a man who says "I want to wear a dress, I want to wear lipstick, I want to have (insert whatever female stereotype here)". If you were to ask me whether I'm a man or woman, I'd say man, because I have a penis. I don't feel like there's much else that really defines that. I can be a guy and love sports or wearing pantyhose, or both. Does wanting to mutilate your genitals really define anything?
Another thing that's hard for me to reconcile, there are people out there who identify as having 1 missing limb...who don't. We don't cut that limb off for them, we get them mental help. So it can't just be that someone says "ew a penis, get it off of me". It's clearly something where they truly believe they "are" a woman in this case (meaning mentally, not just physically, which is what confuses me because how can I say my mind is male or female...it's just my mind, whatever it is, I can't step inside the mind of others to compare it to). I just don't get how know they're a woman, and not just a man who has traditionally female tendencies in terms of action/thought. Like if they'd never met a woman, would they think "I'm a female of the species", or would they just think "I'm a man but a little different than the majority of men I meet". Like you identify as a woman...but women run the table from super feminine to super masculine.
At the end of the day, I don't care what people do. It sometimes makes me sad to think though that perhaps people just feel they'll be more accepted changing genders to what they feel is that traditional gender role than being a very unique member of the gender they were born with. It's probably just because I don't understand how anyone feels their mind is either male or female though.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 3, 2015 12:40:51 GMT -5
Virgil you're talking about changing sex as if it was a black and white issue - male/female, when in fact sexuality is like the pH scale, with very masculine and very feminine on each end of the scale, and human beings falling somewhere on that line, but rarely all the way at either end.
Surely you've met women before who have a lot of mannish characteristics, and males who seem very feminine, plus some that seem either or (remember Pat from SNL?).
Jenner isn't changing from male to female. He's arranging his outsides to conform with what he's felt on the inside, probably for all his life.
If someone was born with a cleft lip we don't force him to live that way because we have the technology to fix it. Why does someone born with external male parts have to live that way, when we fit it?
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 3, 2015 12:42:14 GMT -5
The piece that always makes my brain want to explode is "how do you know you identify as a woman"? How do you know what a woman's brain is like to know that's you? I completely get a man who says "I want to wear a dress, I want to wear lipstick, I want to have (insert whatever female stereotype here)". If you were to ask me whether I'm a man or woman, I'd say man, because I have a penis. I don't feel like there's much else that really defines that. I can be a guy and love sports or wearing pantyhose, or both. Does wanting to mutilate your genitals really define anything? Another thing that's hard for me to reconcile, there are people out there who identify as having 1 missing limb...who don't. We don't cut that limb off for them, we get them mental help. So it can't just be that someone says "ew a penis, get it off of me". It's clearly something where they truly believe they "are" a woman in this case (meaning mentally, not just physically, which is what confuses me because how can I say my mind is male or female...it's just my mind, whatever it is, I can't step inside the mind of others to compare it to). I just don't get how know they're a woman, and not just a man who has traditionally female tendencies in terms of action/thought. Like if they'd never met a woman, would they think "I'm a female of the species", or would they just think "I'm a man but a little different than the majority of men I meet". Like you identify as a woman...but women run the table from super feminine to super masculine. At the end of the day, I don't care what people do. It sometimes makes me sad to think though that perhaps people just feel they'll be more accepted changing genders to what they feel is that traditional gender role than being a very unique member of the gender they were born with. It's probably just because I don't understand how anyone feels their mind is either male or female though. So if your penis was removed due to penile cancer, you wouldn't be a man anymore?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 12:44:32 GMT -5
The piece that always makes my brain want to explode is "how do you know you identify as a woman"? How do you know what a woman's brain is like to know that's you? I completely get a man who says "I want to wear a dress, I want to wear lipstick, I want to have (insert whatever female stereotype here)". If you were to ask me whether I'm a man or woman, I'd say man, because I have a penis. I don't feel like there's much else that really defines that. I can be a guy and love sports or wearing pantyhose, or both. Does wanting to mutilate your genitals really define anything? Another thing that's hard for me to reconcile, there are people out there who identify as having 1 missing limb...who don't. We don't cut that limb off for them, we get them mental help. So it can't just be that someone says "ew a penis, get it off of me". It's clearly something where they truly believe they "are" a woman in this case (meaning mentally, not just physically, which is what confuses me because how can I say my mind is male or female...it's just my mind, whatever it is, I can't step inside the mind of others to compare it to). I just don't get how know they're a woman, and not just a man who has traditionally female tendencies in terms of action/thought. Like if they'd never met a woman, would they think "I'm a female of the species", or would they just think "I'm a man but a little different than the majority of men I meet". Like you identify as a woman...but women run the table from super feminine to super masculine. At the end of the day, I don't care what people do. It sometimes makes me sad to think though that perhaps people just feel they'll be more accepted changing genders to what they feel is that traditional gender role than being a very unique member of the gender they were born with. It's probably just because I don't understand how anyone feels their mind is either male or female though. It’s a problem for individuals because it’s distressing. But lots of things are.” He suggests this is just another form of body diversity — like transgenderism — and amputation may help someone achieve similar goals as someone who, say, undergoes cosmetic surgery to look more like who they believe their ideal selves to be. In the late 1990s, Scottish surgeon Dr. Robert Smith amputated the legs of two patients at their request. While the surgery involved National Health Service staff, each patient paid nearly $6,000 for their procedures news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies#__federated=1 Or remove those offensive limbs and tell them how great they look in that wheelchair.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2015 12:47:29 GMT -5
But the fact that you don't is my point. You have self selected LGBT issues to speak out against. The Bible says it is an abomination is the crutch to lean on, but it is not the reason to speak out against it. The reason is because it is something you don't like, not something the Bible doesn't like. If it was simply a matter of the people acting outside of the teachings of the Bible, the pork issue (amongst others) should be a much bigger issue. Both issues affect you in similar ways. Both are similarly separating people from teachings of the Bible. Yet only one is spoken out against. And it isn't an issue of availability to speak out against LGBT versus pork. There are more posts on this board extolling the consumption of bacon than of the virtues of being transgender. There are more people in the community at large that eat pork than are LGBT or even those that support the LGBT community. So, in theory, counselling those against eating pork should have a bigger effect than counseling those against LGBT. But even in light of all those things, it is LGBT issues that receive the most outspokenness. It is any wonder that the LGBT community feels unduly discriminated against? It is nothing but people personally not liking or approving of their choices and trying to enforce their feelings on them. This is a fair criticism. However. I point out: - I discuss issues as they come up on the message board. I've never created an LGBT thread, and there's a reason for that.
There are certain posters who spam the boards with LGBT stories, politics, scandals, etc. I would estimate there have been 70-80 such threads since our move to Proboards. I've posted in fewer than ten of them.
To the best of my knowledge, pork has never come up as a topic of discussion on this board (except on EE as a joke, and you'll forgive me for not sermonizing there). As I said previously, I don't make a habit of stirring up opportunities to moralize. I engage in discussions already at hand, and I'm more selective than many people give me credit for.
- In worldly (that is, non-scriptural) terms, the consequences of eating pork aren't as grave as the consequences of homosexuality, and I make virtually all of my arguments on this board in worldly terms.
- From a Biblical standpoint, you're absolutely right: sin is sin. A Christian doesn't get to say "I'll obey the laws on homosexuality, but cheat on my taxes and stuff myself with pork." Even so, it's perfectly right and sensible to address moral issues individually.
- The Biblical case against pork is nuanced, and it takes a great deal of work to prove it. An entire 90-minute sermon, even. In a sense, it's "impossible" to properly address the topic on a message board. There's just too much necessary material for this kind of forum.
Hopefully that gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 3, 2015 12:49:27 GMT -5
But the fact that you don't is my point. You have self selected LGBT issues to speak out against. The Bible says it is an abomination is the crutch to lean on, but it is not the reason to speak out against it. The reason is because it is something you don't like, not something the Bible doesn't like. If it was simply a matter of the people acting outside of the teachings of the Bible, the pork issue (amongst others) should be a much bigger issue. Both issues affect you in similar ways. Both are similarly separating people from teachings of the Bible. Yet only one is spoken out against. And it isn't an issue of availability to speak out against LGBT versus pork. There are more posts on this board extolling the consumption of bacon than of the virtues of being transgender. There are more people in the community at large that eat pork than are LGBT or even those that support the LGBT community. So, in theory, counselling those against eating pork should have a bigger effect than counseling those against LGBT. But even in light of all those things, it is LGBT issues that receive the most outspokenness. It is any wonder that the LGBT community feels unduly discriminated against? It is nothing but people personally not liking or approving of their choices and trying to enforce their feelings on them. This is a fair criticism. However. I point out: - I discuss issues as they come up on the message board. I've never created an LGBT thread, and there's a reason for that.
There are certain posters who spam the boards with LGBT stories, politics, scandals, etc. I would estimate there have been 70-80 such threads since our move to Proboards. I've posted in fewer than ten of them.
To the best of my knowledge, pork has never come up as a topic of discussion on this board (except on EE as a joke, and you'll forgive me for not sermonizing there). As I said previously, I don't make a habit of stirring up opportunities to moralize. I engage in discussions already at hand, and I'm more selective than many people give me credit for.
- In worldly (that is, non-scriptural) terms, the consequences of eating pork aren't as grave as the consequences of homosexuality, and I make virtually all of my arguments on this board in worldly terms.
- From a Biblical standpoint, you're absolutely right: sin is sin. A Christian doesn't get to say "I'll obey the laws on homosexuality, but cheat on my taxes and stuff myself with pork." Even so, it's perfectly right and sensible to address moral issues individually.
- The Biblical case against pork is nuanced, and it takes a great deal of work to prove it. An entire 90-minute sermon, even. In a sense, it's "impossible" to properly address the topic on a message board. There's just too much necessary material for this kind of forum.
Hopefully that gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from. It does. But it goes further to prove my point that your stance is not based on Biblical/religious reasons.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 3, 2015 12:55:10 GMT -5
It's not that I wouldn't "be" a man anymore necessarily, but I probably wouldn't just automatically say "i'm a man". Or maybe I would because I've just grown used to saying it. I'd probably think of myself as a eunuch and just not want to explain what a eunuch is every time I said it.
I just don't think there's really all that much that separates men from women other than sexual organs...we're all still humans.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 13:05:10 GMT -5
Lol. You think the bible is nuanced on pork, but explicit on 'homosexuality'?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 3, 2015 13:15:12 GMT -5
Lol. You think the bible is nuanced on pork, but explicit on 'homosexuality'? The piece that's interesting to me is that there's a lot of "men can't lie with men" stuff, but I'm not sure there's any "women can't get down with other women" stuff. Like even God thinks 2 chicks hooking up is hot.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2015 13:15:56 GMT -5
It does. But it goes further to prove my point that your stance is not based on Biblical/religious reasons. If a Christian asks me "Why shouldn't I do this?", my response is a wonderfully direct exercise in "Open your Bible. Look here. Here. Here." If a non-Christian asks me "Why shouldn't I do this?", my only recourse is to dredge up damning statistics, studies, facts, etc. with ruthless objectivity. I come across as cold, callous, and arrogant, and have to contend with all the problems inherent to rationalist arguments, but it's presumably something posters are at least willing to listen to. And if nothing else, it gives me an excellent idea of why the Bible says, "Don't do this; it will harm you." There is a scriptural argument against transgenderism (or rather, certain behaviours associated with it, and it's extremely important to mind which ones) but monkeys will fly out my rear before I make it on this board.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 13:18:39 GMT -5
Lol. You think the bible is nuanced on pork, but explicit on 'homosexuality'? The piece that's interesting to me is that there's a lot of "men can't lie with men" stuff, but I'm not sure there's any "women can't get down with other women" stuff. Like even God thinks 2 chicks hooking up is hot. To my note there is ONE man not lie man passage.. And in it's broader context it's not so clear exactly to what it is referring. Most passages people tend to attribute to homosexuality in the bible can better be read as prostitution and/or promiscuity.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 13:19:18 GMT -5
Lol. You think the bible is nuanced on pork, but explicit on 'homosexuality'? The piece that's interesting to me is that there's a lot of "men can't lie with men" stuff, but I'm not sure there's any "women can't get down with other women" stuff. Like even God thinks 2 chicks hooking up is hot. LMAO, I think "men" was used to refer to man in general.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 13:20:54 GMT -5
It does. But it goes further to prove my point that your stance is not based on Biblical/religious reasons. If a Christian asks me "Why shouldn't I do this?", my response is a wonderfully direct exercise in "Open your Bible. Look here. Here. Here." If a non-Christian asks me "Why shouldn't I do this?", my only recourse is to dredge up damning statistics, studies, facts, etc. with ruthless objectivity. I come across as cold, callous, and arrogant, and have to contend with all the problems inherent to rationalist arguments, but it's presumably something posters are at least willing to listen to. And if nothing else, it gives me an excellent idea of why the Bible says, "Don't do this; it will harm you." There is a scriptural argument against transgenderism (or rather, certain behaviours associated with it, and it's extremely important to mind which ones) but monkeys will fly out my rear before I make it on this board. What scriptural support? Not dress like man? You mean during the period in which everyone wore robes? That referred to war gear best I've heard explained.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 3, 2015 13:21:02 GMT -5
The piece that's interesting to me is that there's a lot of "men can't lie with men" stuff, but I'm not sure there's any "women can't get down with other women" stuff. Like even God thinks 2 chicks hooking up is hot. LMAO, I think "men" was used to refer to man in general. No, it's "a man can't lie with a man like he does a woman" or something like that. It's specific in referencing both men and women.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 3, 2015 13:21:03 GMT -5
actually, to most of hte academics I've had this discussion with, the line about lying with men as with women, it was about not raping prisoners of war. forgive my awful paraphrasing. I'm just a dorky engineer.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2015 13:21:33 GMT -5
Lol. You think the bible is nuanced on pork, but explicit on 'homosexuality'? That is correct. Specifically, acts that I would call "homosexuality". And it really doesn't matter what I call them.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2015 13:22:48 GMT -5
If a Christian asks me "Why shouldn't I do this?", my response is a wonderfully direct exercise in "Open your Bible. Look here. Here. Here." If a non-Christian asks me "Why shouldn't I do this?", my only recourse is to dredge up damning statistics, studies, facts, etc. with ruthless objectivity. I come across as cold, callous, and arrogant, and have to contend with all the problems inherent to rationalist arguments, but it's presumably something posters are at least willing to listen to. And if nothing else, it gives me an excellent idea of why the Bible says, "Don't do this; it will harm you." There is a scriptural argument against transgenderism (or rather, certain behaviours associated with it, and it's extremely important to mind which ones) but monkeys will fly out my rear before I make it on this board. What scriptural support? Not dress like man? You mean during the period in which everyone wore robes? That referred to war gear best I've heard explained. What part of "monkeys will fly out my rear before I debate this here" is confusing you?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2015 13:25:35 GMT -5
actually, to most of hte academics I've had this discussion with, the line about lying with men as with women, it was about not raping prisoners of war. forgive my awful paraphrasing. I'm just a dorky engineer. I've heard all the easily-debunkable counterarguments too. They should form a line.
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ArchietheDragon
Junior Associate
Joined: Jul 7, 2014 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 6,380
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 3, 2015 13:26:04 GMT -5
It does. But it goes further to prove my point that your stance is not based on Biblical/religious reasons. There is a scriptural argument against transgenderism (or rather, certain behaviours associated with it, and it's extremely important to mind which ones) but monkeys will fly out my rear before I make it on this board. I don't doubt there is. But you are continuing to prove my point that it is not religion that shapes your argument.
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chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 39,500
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 3, 2015 13:28:01 GMT -5
actually, to most of hte academics I've had this discussion with, the line about lying with men as with women, it was about not raping prisoners of war. forgive my awful paraphrasing. I'm just a dorky engineer. I've heard all the easily-debunkable counterarguments too. They should form a line. hey, you have your interpretation. these people have theirs.
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