cael
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Post by cael on Jun 2, 2015 20:54:57 GMT -5
That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism?
Have you answered that question here, or do you not want to get into it? (I'm asking seriously, not trying to be snarky) What are these consequences you keep mentioning of accepting different ways people want to live that have no bearing on you or me or anyone else?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 20:56:29 GMT -5
Do I loathe Mr. Jenner? No. Do I loathe the consequences of his actions, and the consequences of his advocacy? Do I loathe the prevailing opinion that none of this matters because it's somehow wrong to reject others' beliefs? I do. Do I loathe the fact that I can't reason with people? That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism? Yes. My view is in direct opposition to virtually everybody else's in this thread. Anyone more conservative has already been run off the board on a rail, so I'm going to seem a bit recalcitrant. I'm trying to be firm and to not compromise my position, while not being glib, petty, or sarcastic. I have no backup on this message board. Please take that into account. If it makes you feel any better, I feel similar frustration with the Republican (conservative) party. I'm really, really, really frustrated that I sometimes have to vote for tax and spend supporting (liberal. Democrat) politicians I don't like because anyone with tolerant social views have been run out of the Republican party on a rail. I loathe that the party that should be about responsible financial policy instead gets wrapped around the axle with religion, abortion and wanting to control the personal lives of people - the things I want less, not more, government involvement with.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 20:58:43 GMT -5
You'll have to point out my specific condemnations. The Refusing to accept someone's belief isn't condemning them. This is a message board. We'd all be condemning everybody every day if that was the case. I'm condemning Mr. Jenner for making himself into a spectacle, but that's limited to Mr. Jenner. Even there, my condemnation is that he doesn't respect the consequences of his advocacy. I've been accused of the same thing in this thread. Rosa Parks made a spectacle of herself, as did Susan B anthony, and other civil right pioneers. If every different person hid in the shadows, we would never have changes in society. I have a sticker on my boat that says "Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History" It was a gift from someone who gets me.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 2, 2015 21:01:35 GMT -5
I think this is the crux of the issue. Most people are NOT okay with transgender people. It's better than it was maybe 10 years ago, but I don't for a second think people are generally OK with it. My best hope for my son is he can blend in so the ignorant assholes don't notice. I wonder, if you were dating your X 50 years ago, would you have been so cavalier about ignoring the opinions of others? Just because it's socially acceptable now doesn't mean it didn't used to be a very dangerous thing to do. Why would someone identify as transgender and not as male or female? Why wouldn't a person want to blend in as the sex they are? A man who transitions to female DOES identify as a woman. A woman to transitions to male DOES identify as a man. Caitlyn Jenner says she's a woman. This thread is all about people calling her transgender. Quite a few people on this thread don't believe her. The Jenner/Kardashian family appears to me to be quite repugnant. I could be wrong (I have not watched their show) but I haven't heard anything that makes me think they are people I'd admire. Coming out on VF seems over the top to me, but they live in reality TV so it seems predictable. I don't think ALL trans are that way. Just like not ALL cancer survivors are the same. Some become advocates, some are just happy to quietly live their lives. DS is NOT an advocate. He'd rather die than march in a LGBT parade. He is NOT trans - he's a boy (his words). He just wants to live his normal boy life. That doesn't mean there aren't kids out there who want to advocate for themselves.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 2, 2015 21:07:59 GMT -5
Why would someone identify as transgender and not as male or female? Why wouldn't a person want to blend in as the sex they are? A man who transitions to female DOES identify as a woman. A woman to transitions to male DOES identify as a man. Caitlyn Jenner says she's a woman. This thread is all about people calling her transgender. Quite a few people on this thread don't believe her. The Jenner/Kardashian family appears to me to be quite repugnant. I could be wrong (I have not watched their show) but I haven't heard anything that makes me think they are people I'd admire. Coming out on VF seems over the top to me, but they live in reality TV so it seems predictable. I don't think ALL trans are that way. Just like not ALL cancer survivors are the same. Some become advocates, some are just happy to quietly live their lives. DS is NOT an advocate. He'd rather die than march in a LGBT parade. He is NOT trans - he's a boy (his words). He just wants to live his normal boy life. That doesn't mean there aren't kids out there who want to advocate for themselves. FSK-if it is not too rude of me to ask, how old is your son.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 2, 2015 21:09:09 GMT -5
That's the type of sentiment I think of when I read Virgil's posts about transgender people. Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. I'm not going to rebut your comments about Christ's teachings other than to say his message to sinners was repent and seek the Kingdom, not "keep doing whatever the heck you want to". If you want a more detailed scriptural argument vis a vis transgenderism, you'll have to find it on another message board. But he hung out with them BEFORE they repented. He shows them love first the said repent and follow me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:09:41 GMT -5
Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. Yes, your condemnation of people you don't personally agree with is all the same to me. You can try to cloak it in logic or scripture, but it's hatred and prejudice... based on religious beliefs that are just as "delusional" as some of the things you are condemning. I'm not sure how you think my position differs from "live and let live". I don't vote. I'm not trying to pass legislation banning transgendered people. I'm polite and accommodating to transgendered individuals I meet. I draw the line at compromising my beliefs when the subject comes up for discussion. I don't lie. I don't hedge my words. I don't throw my hands up and make nebulous arguments that I can back out of later. If "live and let live" to you means I have to jettison that to embrace society's consensus, rest assured that society will make that my problem rather than your problem soon enough. As for your statement, "You can try to cloak it in logic or scripture, but it's hatred and prejudice." That basically says it all, doesn't it? Logic is irrelevant. Scripture is irrelevant. His views have to be hatred.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 21:11:53 GMT -5
Why would someone identify as transgender and not as male or female? Why wouldn't a person want to blend in as the sex they are? A man who transitions to female DOES identify as a woman. A woman to transitions to male DOES identify as a man. Caitlyn Jenner says she's a woman. This thread is all about people calling her transgender. Quite a few people on this thread don't believe her. The Jenner/Kardashian family appears to me to be quite repugnant. I could be wrong (I have not watched their show) but I haven't heard anything that makes me think they are people I'd admire. Coming out on VF seems over the top to me, but they live in reality TV so it seems predictable. I don't think ALL trans are that way. Just like not ALL cancer survivors are the same. Some become advocates, some are just happy to quietly live their lives. DS is NOT an advocate. He'd rather die than march in a LGBT parade. He is NOT trans - he's a boy (his words). He just wants to live his normal boy life. That doesn't mean there aren't kids out there who want to advocate for themselves. Your son is very fortunate to have a mother with such a big heart and so much empathy. Sadly, many of these people don't have someone to advocate for them when they're just plain too tired to fight anymore. Your boy has you. It's given him the strength to be himself and happy with being himself. There will always be those who will want to tell others who they are, how they feel, where they're wrong, and why they should do things differently. After all, that person knows you better than you do, don'cha know! They live in your head and they're ever so much smarter than you - about everything there is! They know! They are the all-knowing! ... and they have the empathy of an earthworm.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 21:13:50 GMT -5
Wouldn't you be offended if I suggested you need help because of your religious delusions? "Let's not encourage it, but get you help" would make you howl from the rooftops. I can't count the number of times you've suggested religion-minded US politicians (or political figures) are delusional and need help. I don't recall ever howling from the rooftops. I agree with you just as often as not. As far as Mr. Jenner is concerned, if he wasn't so hell bent on making himself into a public spectacle, my response would be "whatever; good luck with that; you look like a man in drag". It may surprise you to know that it isn't uncommon for me to come in contact with obviously transgendered people, and I call them "ma'am" if they want to be called "ma'am", and "sir" if they want to be called "sir". They don't need me adding to their problems. If ever they pose for Vanity Fair, consider them my version of the Duggars. They're glamorizing actions and lifestyles with provably harmful consequences, and they forfeit their right to happy Virgil smiling and nodding. As for who uses what bathroom, etc.: I really don't care. Oh? Care to post some? It shouldn't be too hard, with your obsessive-compulsive databases and spreadsheets.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 21:15:21 GMT -5
I think this is the crux of the issue. Most people are NOT okay with transgender people. It's better than it was maybe 10 years ago, but I don't for a second think people are generally OK with it. My best hope for my son is he can blend in so the ignorant assholes don't notice. I wonder, if you were dating your X 50 years ago, would you have been so cavalier about ignoring the opinions of others? Just because it's socially acceptable now doesn't mean it didn't used to be a very dangerous thing to do. Why would someone identify as transgender and not as male or female? Why wouldn't a person want to blend in as the sex they are? Why? Because it explains who they are. If you saw a 15 year old, a regular college student and a 40 year old on campus, all taking the same classes, odds are the 15 year old and the 40 year old are explaining who they are fairly often. Because they don't look or act like what people expect college students to look like - eighteen to young twenty-somethings.
How do you blend in if you don't look the part or can't look the part now?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 21:16:12 GMT -5
So no I don't blame him for deciding that enough was enough and he was going to tell his story and control when everyone saw Caitlyn for the first time. He also mentioned a few times that he thought that if his story helped other trans people (and from letters mailed to him I would say it had). That's presuming his story genuinely helps other transgendered people, which it won't, and that the appropriate response to paparazzi attention is to charge head-on into the public spotlight, which it isn't. Now he's just a fool sitting in women's lingerie on the cover of a glamour magazine begging people to call him "Caitlyn", while message boards everywhere are atitter with gossip over whether he's chopped his bits off yet and whether he can officially call himself a lesbian. At least he's getting a fat paycheque for it. How do you know it won't help other transgendered people? Are you claiming to be omniscient?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:18:28 GMT -5
Define "loathing". Do I loathe Mr. Jenner? No. Do I loathe the consequences of his actions, and the consequences of his advocacy? Do I loathe the prevailing opinion that none of this matters because it's somehow wrong to reject others' beliefs? I do. Do I loathe the fact that I can't reason with people? That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism? Yes. My view is in direct opposition to virtually everybody else's in this thread. Anyone more conservative has already been run off the board on a rail, so I'm going to seem a bit recalcitrant. I'm trying to be firm and to not compromise my position, while not being glib, petty, or sarcastic. I have no backup on this message board. Please take that into account. I am fairly conservative. I don't really know anything about the issue, so I can easily believe you or SK and KittenSaver and be swayed either way. The issue doesn't personally matter to me, so I am not really emotional about it at all! But just like as some posters have been less then nice to you and a few others, you have been less than kind as well. Even after you were told that you are very much hurting someone's feelings, you suggested to that poster to "get a life". Only speaking for myself, it would be much easier to read your posts if there was an ounce of consideration for others. And that is coming from someone who has been long considered a bitch around here. I'm sorry if "get a life" was too harsh. I should have said, "You do us a disservice by characterizing the views in this thread as 'hatred'. If you're not convinced of this, go out into the great wide world and learn what real hatred is." As we speak, there are message boards where individuals fantasize about castrating Mr. Jenner, shoving his severed genitals down his throat, hanging him from a tree, and watching him slowly suffocate to death beside the corpses of the liberals who supported him. That is hatred. And there's a lot of it. Don't. diminish. the word.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:19:53 GMT -5
I can't count the number of times you've suggested religion-minded US politicians (or political figures) are delusional and need help. I don't recall ever howling from the rooftops. I agree with you just as often as not. As far as Mr. Jenner is concerned, if he wasn't so hell bent on making himself into a public spectacle, my response would be "whatever; good luck with that; you look like a man in drag". It may surprise you to know that it isn't uncommon for me to come in contact with obviously transgendered people, and I call them "ma'am" if they want to be called "ma'am", and "sir" if they want to be called "sir". They don't need me adding to their problems. If ever they pose for Vanity Fair, consider them my version of the Duggars. They're glamorizing actions and lifestyles with provably harmful consequences, and they forfeit their right to happy Virgil smiling and nodding. As for who uses what bathroom, etc.: I really don't care. Oh? Care to post some? It shouldn't be too hard, with your obsessive-compulsive databases and spreadsheets. Who needs spreadsheets. Search for "Bachmann", "Akin", or "Cruz" for user "Weltz".
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2015 21:24:00 GMT -5
I haven't really been following this thread. To me it's pointless to debate this topic since it strikes at the core of one's belief system. In short, you'll never change anyone's opinion on it and no one will change your opinion on it.
As for me, I fall into the camp of "I don't like it, I don't accept it, but I'll tolerate it." I think it's key to make the difference between tolerance and acceptance. I think tolerance is a good quality to have, but acceptance is something that each person has to do on their own. And I don't like the bullying and social pressure that comes with not accepting something that others deem everyone has to accept.
Face it, some people aren't okay with transsexuals, and that's okay.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 21:29:40 GMT -5
I think Bruce came out as Caitlyn on Vanity Fair in part because he wanted to shape the narrative of how he was viewed. Since I haven't talked to Bruce Jenner before or Caitlyn Jenner now, I really only have opinion to base that on.
I'd guess she did make big money on doing so and would have, had she chosen being in People magazine or some TV special similar to Barbara Walters. Not sure what I would have done in that situation, but going somewhat public is a choice I would have made as well. I would not want tabloids and other media deciding who I was, making up their narratives for money. Might as well get ahead of the media feeding frenzy and put my story out first.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 21:30:41 GMT -5
Oh? Care to post some? It shouldn't be too hard, with your obsessive-compulsive databases and spreadsheets. Who needs spreadsheets. Search for "Bachmann", "Akin", or "Cruz" for user "Weltz". So, you don't actually have any, of me saying they need help because of their religious beliefs. Got it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:37:13 GMT -5
Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. I'm not going to rebut your comments about Christ's teachings other than to say his message to sinners was repent and seek the Kingdom, not "keep doing whatever the heck you want to". If you want a more detailed scriptural argument vis a vis transgenderism, you'll have to find it on another message board. But he hung out with them BEFORE they repented. He shows them love first the said repent and follow me. He had the attitude that they were lost and confused. He wanted them to change. It's also frequently overlooked that the people came to him wherever he taught, generally in the synagogues. He didn't go out into the red light districts and bars "drumming up business", contrary to popular belief. He was utterly uncompromising, driven, outspoken in his criticism, utterly without scruple for condemning unrepentant attitudes, and he lived and breathed scripture--the Word of God. In short, although his attitude was "come as you are", it by no means was "stay as you are". This is a "stay as you are" thread. It's a "it's all right; don't worry about the consequences; just as long as you're happy" thread. Anybody who thinks that was Christ's attitude during his ministry or his apostles' attitude during their ministry doesn't know a blessed thing about scripture. I really wish I could cite scriptures to back all of this up, but of course I can't, and nobody here would care anyway, so it is what it is. All I can say is that we'd best shut up about religion lest this thread be deemed 'religious' in nature and exiled to the hinterlands of Religious Discussion.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:40:22 GMT -5
Who needs spreadsheets. Search for "Bachmann", "Akin", or "Cruz" for user "Weltz". So, you don't actually have any, of me saying they need help because of their religious beliefs. Got it. I'll quote specifics if you change your signature to "Snow leopards are evil." for a day. It may surprise you to learn that I don't have a spreadsheet anywhere. I rely on my memory, and my memory isn't that specific. If you can't be bothered, I can't be bothered. This is a completely pointless arc anyway.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 21:40:31 GMT -5
To me it's pointless to debate this topic since it strikes at the core of one's belief system. In short, you'll never change anyone's opinion on it and no one will change your opinion on it.
Maybe not in a single thread. But over time, people do change. Based on what they see and experience, many people do change.
Look at the decline in people identifying with organized religion in the US. Religious beliefs are fairly "core" to one's belief system, yet people are increasingly deciding that they do not hold those beliefs any more.
Over time, what we see influences us for the better or the worse. Over time, what we experience changes what we "know". IMHO intelligent people are always seeking new information against which to examine their beliefs and hone their understanding.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 21:43:22 GMT -5
If you want to quote scripture to clarify your points, Virgil Showlion, that's what the Religious Discussions forum is for. There's nothing stopping you from starting a thread there. Furthermore, to address an earlier post of yours, nobody has ever been "driven from" this board unless they've been banned for refusing to respect the ToS and/or the CoC. If someone leaves the board of their own accord that is, most certainly, their right. They are not, however, "driven from" the board. If they don't have the cojones to support their own convictions in the presence of disagreement, that's their problem. It's not the problem of this message board. They're more than welcome to find a forum where everyone agrees with them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 21:45:53 GMT -5
"Face it, some people aren't okay with transsexuals, and that's okay."
If I say, 'Face it, some people aren't okay with Jews, and that's okay. Face it, some people aren't okay with a black person marrying a white person, and that's okay. Face it, some people aren't okay with girls getting an education, and that's okay. Etc. Etc.
Are those things all good too?
Just asking.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2015 21:47:59 GMT -5
I do not understand Virgil's argument. Aren't hermaphrdites (who knows how to spell that) a real thing? If they are then how can he argue that some people are born with messed up sexual identities? He also said, I believe, that no one has benefited from Caitlyn Jenner's public journey. There is no way he could know that. Maybe some hermaphdite did. Also is he arguing that sexuality is not in the brain? I mean can you look at a brain with whatever it is that looks at brains and tell if it is a woman or a man? I know most men have bigger brains but there could be exceptions so that is not 100% reliable, but surely something else might be. Just kidding about brain size Hermaphrodites are such from birth; the problem arises when the gender they're assigned isn't the gender manifested. The problem is typically discovered when the child is very young, and at that point, since the child has no strong history living as one gender, I can see the wisdom in parents correcting their mistake without much trauma to the child. Everything I've read suggests that the healthy child identifies exclusively as the new gender. Not as trans-male, or cis-male, or "genderqueer", or any other label that tries to import delusions of specialness or sexual ambiguity into the identity of the afflicted. The child grows up as male (female), identifies as such, acts as such, and is universally viewed as such. It's a non-issue. The vast majority of transgendered individuals aren't hermaphrodites. I can't remember the exact percentage that are, but it's small. More importantly, men and women who decide to "transition" later in life are dooming themselves to physical and emotional hell. They necessarily must import delusions of sexual ambiguity, because they've lived and grown up as one gender, they're known by that gender, all of their experiences are with that gender, and their physical body is of that gender. Not only do they have to tear that down to the foundations, they have to contend with the fact that their bodies don't care what their minds think. They have to throw away everything they've built up during their childhood and replace it with a cheap facsimile. They look awkward. They act awkward. People who knew them as their former gender have no clue how to treat them, and by the time they've hit adulthood there are thousands of such people. The transgendered individuals I've talked to at length (I've met all types while tutoring) clearly made it integral to their identity. They'd become one-dimensional caricatures. Something is so obviously wrong, people can't and won't ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Some of them do it in order to feel special and to feel martyred; I won't speculate on what percentage that is. For those simply seeking normalcy, they won't find it. That's the grand irony. If they think surgery and drugs will fix the problem, they're deluding themselves. No doubt that's a large part of the reason suicide rates are sky high post-surgery. They craved normalcy, they threw away a perfectly good body to get it, and... well, crap... they're Bruce Jenner in drag on the cover of a magazine. You are special, Mr. Jenner. You're the first Olympic athlete who screwed the pooch for your fifteen minutes in drag on the cover of a magazine. You're a pathetic old fool, and good riddance to you when the glamour wears off. I don't know if this has been pointed out, there like 70 more posts after this, but you're ignorance on the topic is shining through. If you want to argue a topic claiming knowledge and being well researched, it would be well advised to be well versed. Cis-male and cis-female is not a "perversion" as you call it. It's a term to identify people who were born into the bodies they feel they are. So you Virgil are a cis-male.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:50:11 GMT -5
If you want to quote scripture to clarify your points, Virgil Showlion, that's what the Religious Discussions forum is for. There's nothing stopping you from starting a thread there. Furthermore, to address an earlier post of yours, nobody has ever been "driven from" this board unless they've been banned for refusing to respect the ToS and/or the CoC. If someone leaves the board of their own accord that is, most certainly, their right. They are not, however, "driven from" the board. If they don't have the cojones to support their own convictions in the presence of disagreement, that's their problem. It's not the problem of this message board. They're more than welcome to find a forum where everyone agrees with them. I was actually referring to the many conservatives who left because they couldn't stand the place. And indeed, they've found new message boards to post on.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 21:50:52 GMT -5
So, you don't actually have any, of me saying they need help because of their religious beliefs. Got it. I'll quote specifics if you change your signature to "Snow leopards are evil." for a day. It may surprise you to learn that I don't have a spreadsheet anywhere. I rely on my memory, and my memory isn't that specific. If you can't be bothered, I can't be bothered. This is a completely pointless arc anyway. Well, don't accuse me of things if you can't back them up.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 21:52:33 GMT -5
If you want to quote scripture to clarify your points, Virgil Showlion, that's what the Religious Discussions forum is for. There's nothing stopping you from starting a thread there. Furthermore, to address an earlier post of yours, nobody has ever been "driven from" this board unless they've been banned for refusing to respect the ToS and/or the CoC. If someone leaves the board of their own accord that is, most certainly, their right. They are not, however, "driven from" the board. If they don't have the cojones to support their own convictions in the presence of disagreement, that's their problem. It's not the problem of this message board. They're more than welcome to find a forum where everyone agrees with them. I was actually referring to the many conservatives who left because they couldn't stand the place. And indeed, they've found new message boards to post on. They were not, then, "driven" anywhere. They chose to go somewhere else. There have been liberal posters who have done the same. That's called freedom of choice.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 2, 2015 21:53:51 GMT -5
Are words like mutilate, sick, fool, delusional, doomed, harmful... Are these to be used lightly? Are you under the impression that your distaste and loathing are hidden or subtle? Define "loathing". Do I loathe Mr. Jenner? No. Do I loathe the consequences of his actions, and the consequences of his advocacy? Do I loathe the prevailing opinion that none of this matters because it's somehow wrong to reject others' beliefs? I do. Do I loathe the fact that I can't reason with people? That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism? Yes. My view is in direct opposition to virtually everybody else's in this thread. Anyone more conservative has already been run off the board on a rail, so I'm going to seem a bit recalcitrant. I'm trying to be firm and to not compromise my position, while not being glib, petty, or sarcastic. I have no backup on this message board. Please take that into account. I see you do not hate him. I think you might hate some of his actions.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 2, 2015 21:54:56 GMT -5
But he hung out with them BEFORE they repented. He shows them love first the said repent and follow me. He had the attitude that they were lost and confused. He wanted them to change. It's also frequently overlooked that the people came to him wherever he taught, generally in the synagogues. He didn't go out into the red light districts and bars "drumming up business", contrary to popular belief. He was utterly uncompromising, driven, outspoken in his criticism, utterly without scruple for condemning unrepentant attitudes, and he lived and breathed scripture--the Word of God. In short, although his attitude was "come as you are", it by no means was "stay as you are". This is a "stay as you are" thread. It's a "it's all right; don't worry about the consequences; just as long as you're happy" thread. Anybody who thinks that was Christ's attitude during his ministry or his apostles' attitude during their ministry doesn't know a blessed thing about scripture. I really wish I could cite scriptures to back all of this up, but of course I can't, and nobody here would care anyway, so it is what it is. All I can say is that we'd best shut up about religion lest this thread be deemed 'religious' in nature and exiled to the hinterlands of Religious Discussion. I can't bold on my tablet, but Jesus did go out of his way to hang with the perceived sinners. The woman at the well, Zacchius, he even sought out Matthew the tax collector to be his disciple. To say he wasn't hanging in the red light district is ludicrous, he spent time in Samaria which was considered the same thing. Yes he was saying change. He was all about change. He came to change the world. For it to stay the same would mean his life and ministry was completely in vain. For someone to accept Jesus as their personal savior and not have their life changed, means they didn't really give him control of their life. He is the great changer. But don't think for a second that didn't start with love for the person. And if we don't start with love for the person, then you never get the opportunity to let Jesus make the change in them. End of theological rant.
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:55:00 GMT -5
I don't know if this has been pointed out, there like 70 more posts after this, but you're ignorance on the topic is shining through. If you want to argue a topic claiming knowledge and being well researched, it would be well advised to be well versed. Cis-male and cis-female is not a "perversion" as you call it. It's a term to identify people who were born into the bodies they feel they are. So you Virgil are a cis-male. I'm talking about explicitly identifying as "cis-male" rather than male. It's at the opposite end of the spectrum, but shares the property that it's about making a statement.
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 21:56:01 GMT -5
I'll quote specifics if you change your signature to "Snow leopards are evil." for a day. It may surprise you to learn that I don't have a spreadsheet anywhere. I rely on my memory, and my memory isn't that specific. If you can't be bothered, I can't be bothered. This is a completely pointless arc anyway. Well, don't accuse me of things if you can't back them up. I can back them up if you can change your signature block. Quid pro quo.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 2, 2015 21:59:07 GMT -5
I haven't posted in this thread for a day or two - but I have read back through several pages of comments.
I have to say that I've gained new respect for many members here who I didn't really "know" that well, since we'd never had much online interaction here in the past.
Others I thought I *knew* relatively well have really opened my eyes as to their true colors and intolerance (or ignorance on the subject) just by their comments and lack of acceptance of others as human beings.
I won't name names or point fingers out of respect for them and their opinions, but I must say that my tongue is really sore today from biting it.
What B/C (who I shall refer to Jenner as since the transformation is still incomplete)- does not impact MY life - nor YOURS.
It's right for B/C - and that's really all that matters at the end of the day.
As for the publicity - it was pretty difficult for B/C to avoid it. The Kardashian family had their private lives on display on reality TV - with cameras following their every move inside and outside of the house. B/C was thrown into that media circus and swept up into the show simply by being the current husband of Kris.
When B/C finally decided (after YEARS) of emotional struggle to be the person that was right for B/C and B/C only, the treatments started. It was hard to miss the subtle changes as the transformation began, being constantly thrown into the spotlight and hounded by media.
The one thing I think that B/C was premature on, is the photo shoots for the Cover and story/pictorial in Vanity Fair. It was too soon. B/C should have quietly gone about what she set out to do and then gone on with life. The V/C story could have been put on the back burner.
If B/C wanted to use the transition to help others going through the same struggle, or to educate the ignorant, a biography after the fact would have a bigger impact.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see one in the near future.
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