Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Jun 2, 2015 19:51:29 GMT -5
+++++++++
Then how about this: We can learn to accept that everyone has the right to make their own choices and to live their lives according to what is best for them. I don't believe anyone has the right to dictate to others how to live their life. As for me, I sometimes have enough trouble paying attention to my own life and making the decisions that are best for me. Therefore how can I possibly have enough time and energy to insert my nose into the business of others.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 19:51:55 GMT -5
If you think this is hatred, go out into the world. Get a life.You're either deliberately misusing the term, or else you don't have a blessed clue what real hatred is. Was that really necessary? You are showing disrespect towards Rae and I think that's totally uncalled for in light of this very sensitive topic - especially for her. Having to deal with all of this first hand leads me to believe she (along with SK) has more of a life and is living in the real world far more than most of us posting here about this topic. No kidding! I've dealt with these individuals on a few occasions. My dealings with them have been subject to a few degrees of separation. The first I saw sent me scurrying for information. It's not something taught in nursing school and one wants to give the most compassionate care possible. That requires understanding from which to draw empathy. SK and rae have an understanding I could never achieve no matter how much I read, or how many people I talked to. They actually walk the walk with a lot fewer degrees of separation. They know this path much better than I, and most certainly much better than Virgil.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 19:53:16 GMT -5
Religion has not made my life better.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 19:54:02 GMT -5
Statements like his make it very difficult to have a meaningful discourse on this issue. Same for the Duggar thread. Yes. It's hard to reconcile the idea that religious beliefs (which are by definition based on faith and have no basis in proof) should be protected at all costs, yet beliefs he doesn't personally agree with are "delusions" that are to be insulted. Why is it not delusional to believe in God? And why should that belief in God be protected at the same time a person's belief about his/her own identity should be subjected to the judgment of others?
But belief that one delusion should be protected at all costs yet the other is dangerous would be hypocrisy and well, you know.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 19:54:56 GMT -5
Transgender people are not one dimensional. BIL is transgender and hearing some of the opinions voiced on this thread is deeply concerning and painful. He's only shared a little of his story with me ( and been patIent with intrusive questions) but try to imagine how difficult it is to feel that your body is wrong and to be judged whenever you leave your home. To have the mere act of using a bathroom become a large question. Before he began his transition he suffered from deep depression and other psychological problems. From that perspective I wouldn't call gender reassignment surgery "mutilation" but reconstruction. I don't know any transgender people in real life. One of my friends daughters is struggling with believing she is a boy. My friend is very religious so she is struggling big time. But she loves her daughter and is doing what she can to help her. They are both in therapy. And yes, Rae was nice enough to answer some questions for me (maybe last yer?) even knowing that I don't understand gender identity issues
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 19:56:03 GMT -5
Statements like his make it very difficult to have a meaningful discourse on this issue. Same for the Duggar thread. Many of the posters in the Duggar thread were dishonest. One poster took one sentence out of one of my posts where I explained what I meant by that sentence and put it in a completely different context. Posters there took cheap shots at people they disagreed with and were dishonest in accusations. It was shameful how many posters acted. That's why I choose to usually ignore a few posters. They will attack one word in a post and ignore the rest. Or have nothing but sarcastic comments versus real dialogue.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 19:56:18 GMT -5
I agree that he needs to calm down as well. Or people who don't like what he says could put him on ignore.That is certainly an option. Just like being kind and considerate to people's feelings
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 2, 2015 19:56:37 GMT -5
Funny how it is all about being real and your true self. But then to simply fall into photoshopped female stereotypes.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 19:57:15 GMT -5
Statements like his make it very difficult to have a meaningful discourse on this issue. Same for the Duggar thread. Yes. It's hard to reconcile the idea that religious beliefs (which are by definition based on faith and have no basis in proof) should be protected at all costs, yet beliefs he doesn't personally agree with are "delusions" that are to be insulted. Why is it not delusional to believe in God? And why should that belief in God be protected at the same time a person's belief about his/her own identity should be subjected to the judgment of others?
But belief that one delusion should be protected at all costs yet the other is dangerous would be hypocrisy and well, you know.
Can they both be delusional?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 19:57:23 GMT -5
You don't think he's delusional: fine. We'll say his goal is to get as many people as possible to "accept his transition". And collect a paycheque. I suppose we shouldn't forget that. Sounds very similar to what people feel the Duggars were doing when they decided to hide and not report the molestation of their daughters. Their goal is to get as many people as possible to accept the idea that they are a wholesome family and their religious beliefs are good and just. And collect a paycheque.
But since your religious beliefs are more aligned with theirs (it's unfortunate that the women must be sacrificed and subservient, but promoting and preserving the Christian religion is more important than their individual rights), you seem OK with the Duggars making similar choices to use the media to promote their beliefs.
And frankly, many of the Duggars beliefs are just as far into the realm of what might be considered "delusional" as Caitlyn's, IMO.
I think a lot of the Duggars' practices ought to be condemned, and they were. I think they opened themselves to criticism when they went on national TV. I had no pity for them in that respect, and I said so right in that thread.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 19:57:26 GMT -5
Just like being kind and considerate to people's feelings Whoa, now, that doesn't sound like a Christian value to me.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 19:59:57 GMT -5
Yes. It's hard to reconcile the idea that religious beliefs (which are by definition based on faith and have no basis in proof) should be protected at all costs, yet beliefs he doesn't personally agree with are "delusions" that are to be insulted. Why is it not delusional to believe in God? And why should that belief in God be protected at the same time a person's belief about his/her own identity should be subjected to the judgment of others?
But belief that one delusion should be protected at all costs yet the other is dangerous would be hypocrisy and well, you know.
Can they both be delusional? Sure.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 20:01:08 GMT -5
If you think this is hatred, go out into the world. Get a life.You're either deliberately misusing the term, or else you don't have a blessed clue what real hatred is. Was that really necessary? You are showing disrespect towards Rae and I think that's totally uncalled for in light of this very sensitive topic - especially for her. Having to deal with all of this first hand leads me to believe she (along with SK) has more of a life and is living in the real world far more than most of us posting here about this topic. She's calling me hateful, and she's diminishing the word. Maybe her statement was just rhetorical, and if so, I apologize for not perceiving it that way. But if she thinks my objections in this thread constitute hatred, I stand by my statement. Get out into the world and find out what hatred is. It's not a term to be used lightly.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 20:02:08 GMT -5
Just like being kind and considerate to people's feelings Whoa, now, that doesn't sound like a Christian value to me. I think I have a crush on you. And to think that we didn't get along at first!!
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 20:14:17 GMT -5
Religion has not made my life better. Yeah, organized religion does some pretty awful stuff. Sometimes seems like the name of God is used to justify horrible behavior.
When I was on the Church Council of our church in Phoenix, the church membership was static for a number of years and a market study was done to get ideas on population trends, hopefully to be used to design programs to both attract new members and design services to meet the needs of the changing local community. It turned out that - surprise! - the population within 3 miles of the church was increasingly Hispanic and Spanish speaking. The council members came up with several ways to "serve" this changing population; things like offering more dried beans in the food pantry handouts, ESL tutoring. When I suggested we should think about services in Spanish and offering free meeting rooms to Spanish speaking organizations in order to attract Hispanic members (this was a Whitey McWhiterson congregation), the reaction was much, much cooler. One of the leaders actually used the phrase that "those people" weren't what we were trying to attract.
That's the type of sentiment I think of when I read Virgil's posts about transgender people.
Religion is different for everybody, but I have never been able to wrap my head around this idea - that it's OK to be hateful, judgmental and condemn people who we think are distasteful or don't live in accordance with our religious beliefs. Isn't that pretty much what Jesus did his whole life - went around blessing the downtrodden, curing the lepers, washing the feet of the prostitutes... accepting and loving them even if they were "sinners"?
Even if being transgender is against one's Christian belief, wouldn't Jesus want us to be kind to the transgendered person instead of call them delusional and talk about them like s/he was a disgusting thing instead of a person?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 20:15:48 GMT -5
Are words like mutilate, sick, fool, delusional, doomed, harmful... Are these to be used lightly? <br><br>Are you under the impression that your distaste and loathing are hidden or subtle? <br>
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 20:18:41 GMT -5
Religion has not made my life better. Yeah, organized religion does some pretty awful stuff. Sometimes seems like the name of God is used to justify horrible behavior.
When I was on the Church Council of our church in Phoenix, the church membership was static for a number of years and a market study was done to get ideas on population trends, hopefully to be used to design programs to both attract new members and design services to meet the needs of the changing local community. It turned out that - surprise! - the population within 3 miles of the church was increasingly Hispanic and Spanish speaking. The council members came up with several ways to "serve" this changing population; things like offering more dried beans in the food pantry handouts, ESL tutoring. When I suggested we should think about services in Spanish and offering free meeting rooms to Spanish speaking organizations in order to attract Hispanic members (this was a Whitey McWhiterson congregation), the reaction was much, much cooler. One of the leaders actually used the phrase that "those people" weren't what we were trying to attract.
That's the type of sentiment I think of when I read Virgil's posts about transgender people.
Religion is different for everybody, but I have never been able to wrap my head around this idea - that it's OK to be hateful, judgmental and condemn people who we think are distasteful or don't live in accordance with our religious beliefs. Isn't that pretty much what Jesus did his whole life? Went around blessing the downtrodden, curing the lepers, washing the feet of the prostitutes... accepting and loving them even if they were "sinners"?
Even if being transgender is against one's Christian belief, wouldn't Jesus want us to be kind to the transgendered person instead of call them delusional and talk about them like s/he was a disgusting thing instead of a person?
True Christianity is about love, not hate.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 20:26:03 GMT -5
That's the type of sentiment I think of when I read Virgil's posts about transgender people. Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. I'm not going to rebut your comments about Christ's teachings other than to say his message to sinners was repent and seek the Kingdom, not "keep doing whatever the heck you want to". If you want a more detailed scriptural argument vis a vis transgenderism, you'll have to find it on another message board.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 20:30:54 GMT -5
That's the type of sentiment I think of when I read Virgil's posts about transgender people. Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. I'm not going to rebut your comments about Christ's teachings other than to say his message to sinners was repent and seek the Kingdom, not "keep doing whatever the heck you want to". If you want a more detailed scriptural argument vis a vis transgenderism, you'll have to find it on another message board. Even if that's the case, and I am not a Christian so not familiar with his teachings as well as you are, I don't think he was a proponent of those people being condemned by their neighbors, regardless if they decided to repent or not. I could be wrong, I've been wrong before.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 20:34:16 GMT -5
Or people who don't like what he says could put him on ignore. That is certainly an option. Just like being kind and considerate to people's feelings Is that kindness and consideration a one-way street or does it go both ways?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 20:35:37 GMT -5
That's the type of sentiment I think of when I read Virgil's posts about transgender people. Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. Yes, your condemnation of people you don't personally agree with is all the same to me. You can try to cloak it in logic or scripture, but it's hatred and prejudice... based on religious beliefs that are just as "delusional" as some of the things you are condemning.
You are very concerned that the hatred and prejudice of others will soon result in an attack against your religious beliefs. If that's true, it might be most advantageous for you to work to promote overall tolerance of others and their beliefs, no matter how wacky, delusional or wrong. That's much more doable than trying to convert others to your particular religious belief. It's unlikely that the fundamentalists of any particular religion will gain enough membership or support to control the government, but you could work with other groups to at least promote overall tolerance of the beliefs of others... which would benefit and protect you just as it would protect their "delusions."
Live and let live is achievable. And also in agreement with Jesus' actions.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jun 2, 2015 20:39:18 GMT -5
Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. I'm not going to rebut your comments about Christ's teachings other than to say his message to sinners was repent and seek the Kingdom, not "keep doing whatever the heck you want to". If you want a more detailed scriptural argument vis a vis transgenderism, you'll have to find it on another message board. Even if that's the case, and I am not a Christian so not familiar with his teachings as well as you are, I don't think he was a proponent of those people being condemned by their neighbors, regardless if they decided to repent or not. I could be wrong, I've been wrong before. I spent 12 years in catechism classes. You're not wrong.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 20:41:38 GMT -5
Are words like mutilate, sick, fool, delusional, doomed, harmful... Are these to be used lightly? Are you under the impression that your distaste and loathing are hidden or subtle? Define "loathing". Do I loathe Mr. Jenner? No. Do I loathe the consequences of his actions, and the consequences of his advocacy? Do I loathe the prevailing opinion that none of this matters because it's somehow wrong to reject others' beliefs? I do. Do I loathe the fact that I can't reason with people? That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism? Yes. My view is in direct opposition to virtually everybody else's in this thread. Anyone more conservative has already been run off the board on a rail, so I'm going to seem a bit recalcitrant. I'm trying to be firm and to not compromise my position, while not being glib, petty, or sarcastic. I have no backup on this message board. Please take that into account.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 20:42:38 GMT -5
That is certainly an option. Just like being kind and considerate to people's feelings Is that kindness and consideration a one-way street or does it go both ways? Depends on who you ask
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 2, 2015 20:45:33 GMT -5
Just like racism doesn't have to be as overt as a "Whites Only" sign over a drinking fountain to be harmful, not everyone needs to be at Virgil's level to create an atmosphere of non-acceptance. When I started dating now X, I got looks - presumably because I'm black and he's white. At first I was reluctant to do things like hold his hand or kiss him in public for fear of what people may think or say. But then I realized that most people either didn't care or were okay with it, and I wasn't going to worry about the opinions of those that weren't. There will always be people who disagree, and if they're not harming you, screw them and keep doing you. I think this is the crux of the issue. Most people are NOT okay with transgender people. It's better than it was maybe 10 years ago, but I don't for a second think people are generally OK with it. My best hope for my son is he can blend in so the ignorant assholes don't notice. I wonder, if you were dating your X 50 years ago, would you have been so cavalier about ignoring the opinions of others? Just because it's socially acceptable now doesn't mean it didn't used to be a very dangerous thing to do.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 20:49:10 GMT -5
Since you obviously don't care about why I'm objecting or how that objection manifests itself, how could you see it any other way? It's all the same to you. I'm not going to rebut your comments about Christ's teachings other than to say his message to sinners was repent and seek the Kingdom, not "keep doing whatever the heck you want to". If you want a more detailed scriptural argument vis a vis transgenderism, you'll have to find it on another message board. Even if that's the case, and I am not a Christian so not familiar with his teachings as well as you are, I don't think he was a proponent of those people being condemned by their neighbors, regardless if they decided to repent or not. I could be wrong, I've been wrong before. You'll have to point out my specific condemnations. Refusing to accept someone's belief isn't condemning them. This is a message board. We'd all be condemning everybody every day if that was the case. I'm condemning Mr. Jenner for making himself into a spectacle, but that's limited to Mr. Jenner. Even there, my condemnation is that he doesn't respect the consequences of his advocacy. I've been accused of the same thing in this thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 20:50:05 GMT -5
When I started dating now X, I got looks - presumably because I'm black and he's white. At first I was reluctant to do things like hold his hand or kiss him in public for fear of what people may think or say. But then I realized that most people either didn't care or were okay with it, and I wasn't going to worry about the opinions of those that weren't. There will always be people who disagree, and if they're not harming you, screw them and keep doing you. I think this is the crux of the issue. Most people are NOT okay with transgender people. It's better than it was maybe 10 years ago, but I don't for a second think people are generally OK with it. My best hope for my son is he can blend in so the ignorant assholes don't notice. I wonder, if you were dating your X 50 years ago, would you have been so cavalier about ignoring the opinions of others? Just because it's socially acceptable now doesn't mean it didn't used to be a very dangerous thing to do. Why would someone identify as transgender and not as male or female? Why wouldn't a person want to blend in as the sex they are?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 20:51:02 GMT -5
Are words like mutilate, sick, fool, delusional, doomed, harmful... Are these to be used lightly? Are you under the impression that your distaste and loathing are hidden or subtle? Define "loathing". Do I loathe Mr. Jenner? No. Do I loathe the consequences of his actions, and the consequences of his advocacy? Do I loathe the prevailing opinion that none of this matters because it's somehow wrong to reject others' beliefs? I do. Do I loathe the fact that I can't reason with people? That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism? Yes. My view is in direct opposition to virtually everybody else's in this thread. Anyone more conservative has already been run off the board on a rail, so I'm going to seem a bit recalcitrant. I'm trying to be firm and to not compromise my position, while not being glib, petty, or sarcastic. I have no backup on this message board. Please take that into account. I am fairly conservative. I don't really know anything about the issue, so I can easily believe you or SK and KittenSaver and be swayed either way. The issue doesn't personally matter to me, so I am not really emotional about it at all! But just like as some posters have been less then nice to you and a few others, you have been less than kind as well. Even after you were told that you are very much hurting someone's feelings, you suggested to that poster to "get a life". Only speaking for myself, it would be much easier to read your posts if there was an ounce of consideration for others. And that is coming from someone who has been long considered a bitch around here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 20:52:34 GMT -5
Condemn: express complete disapproval of, denounce, revile
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 2, 2015 20:52:31 GMT -5
Even if that's the case, and I am not a Christian so not familiar with his teachings as well as you are, I don't think he was a proponent of those people being condemned by their neighbors, regardless if they decided to repent or not. I could be wrong, I've been wrong before. You'll have to point out my specific condemnations. The Refusing to accept someone's belief isn't condemning them. This is a message board. We'd all be condemning everybody every day if that was the case. I'm condemning Mr. Jenner for making himself into a spectacle, but that's limited to Mr. Jenner. Even there, my condemnation is that he doesn't respect the consequences of his advocacy. I've been accused of the same thing in this thread. Rosa Parks made a spectacle of herself, as did Susan B anthony, and other civil right pioneers. If every different person hid in the shadows, we would never have changes in society.
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