weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 2, 2015 21:59:54 GMT -5
Well, don't accuse me of things if you can't back them up. I can back them up if you can change your signature block. Quid pro quo. You can't back it up. I never once said a politician should get help purely because they're religious.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 2, 2015 22:04:24 GMT -5
My view is in direct opposition to virtually everybody else's in this thread. Anyone more conservative has already been run off the board on a rail You post about conservatives being run off the board and leaving because they can't stand the place. Why is that? Given our COC and fairly aggressive moderating of interpersonal attacks, I'm assuming they weren't physically hurt or even personally attacked... so your statement implies they left because they didn't feel welcome because others didn't share or respect their beliefs. So you can understand how powerful it can be to feel the lack of respect, even in such a relatively safe space as this message board. Imagine how it might feel to be transgendered and feel that - and much, much more - in real life. Your words of condemnation and hatred were strong and they can be powerful as you must certainly know given how you can see that words seem to have driven off all the conservatives.
You can't convert people you have alienated or hurt.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jun 2, 2015 22:04:25 GMT -5
Caitlyn's decision to be so public about her transition was probably in large part because she was so public. It's not like she can hide under a rock and only have those nearest and dearest to her know. Many people don't know anyone who is transgendered. They have no idea what that struggle is like. The very fact that I see more people talking about the struggle of transition than hurling insults leads me to believe she made the right decision. I highly doubt Bruce Jenner posing in lingerie is going to convince anyone not already on your side of the argument to go there. I've been giving some thought to a hypothetical: I suppose I wasn't married and I woke up tomorrow, looked in the mirror, and saw a woman staring back at me. And after a lengthy talk with my parents, work colleagues, doctors, psychiatrist, etc., I discovered that I'd hit my head and it had caused me to imagine my masculinity. All of my life's experiences in which I distinctly remember being a man, looking like a man, etc., were figments of my imagination, and in reality I was a woman. The clothes in my dresser were women's clothes. Everyone I knew knew me as a woman. It was only my memory and my strong sense of male identity that are as they are now. I would obviously be shocked and upset by this. But after considering the matter carefully, I've come to conclude with cold certainty that my response would be to accept reality, embrace what I had, and continue to live life as a woman. I wouldn't go out dating, obviously, but I'd wear my clothes, put on my makeup, carry my purse, maintain my female friendships, and do my best to carry on. I'd no doubt make a crummy woman in many respects, but that would continue to be my reality. I cannot imagine deciding "Screw reality. I'm Virgil." and dressing like a man, cutting my hair short, shooting up with steroids, etc. as though this would somehow remedy the problem. Moreover, I can't imagine wanting to become the physical individual I am now so desperately that I would mutilate my body, pump myself full of hormones, etc. just so that after all the cutting and drugging was done, I'd have a cheap, scarred facsimile of my current (male) body. It wouldn't be real. Neither my memories of being male, nor my strong identification as male, nor any amount of drugs or surgery would make it real. I'd have to be delusional to go through with it. I'd have to be so traumatized by my femininity that it overwhelmed my sense of reason and convinced me that I could become "Virgil" again by sheer power of will. I'd have to be convinced it was worth sacrificing all of the good things I had to claim that fiction. As for going on TV, and posing on the cover of a magazine in the middle of all this? Insanity. Pure insanity. I'd have to be insane. I wouldn't do it for a hundred million dollars. Perhaps that's why I'm less than sympathetic to Mr. Jenner's plight. I cannot for the life of me understand why any rational person would do what he's doing, and nobody here has suggested any justification besides "he has aberrant brain chemistry". Aberrant Brain chemistry by no means makes an irrational desire into a rational one. I'm curious as to why you *obviously* would not date. You claim that you would accept your reality, but it sounds like that's not true and you want to remain living in your "deluded" state if you, as a proper woman, did not want to date men. Are you saying if you suddenly found out you were a woman, you would remain attracted to women and thus be gay?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 22:17:55 GMT -5
He had the attitude that they were lost and confused. He wanted them to change. It's also frequently overlooked that the people came to him wherever he taught, generally in the synagogues. He didn't go out into the red light districts and bars "drumming up business", contrary to popular belief. He was utterly uncompromising, driven, outspoken in his criticism, utterly without scruple for condemning unrepentant attitudes, and he lived and breathed scripture--the Word of God. In short, although his attitude was "come as you are", it by no means was "stay as you are". This is a "stay as you are" thread. It's a "it's all right; don't worry about the consequences; just as long as you're happy" thread. Anybody who thinks that was Christ's attitude during his ministry or his apostles' attitude during their ministry doesn't know a blessed thing about scripture. I really wish I could cite scriptures to back all of this up, but of course I can't, and nobody here would care anyway, so it is what it is. All I can say is that we'd best shut up about religion lest this thread be deemed 'religious' in nature and exiled to the hinterlands of Religious Discussion. I can't bold on my tablet, but Jesus did go out of his way to hang with the perceived sinners. The woman at the well, Zacchius, he even sought out Matthew the tax collector to be his disciple. To say he wasn't hanging in the red light district is ludicrous, he spent time in Samaria which was considered the same thing. Yes he was saying change. He was all about change. He came to change the world. For it to stay the same would mean his life and ministry was completely in vain. For someone to accept Jesus as their personal savior and not have their life changed, means they didn't really give him control of their life. He is the great changer. But don't think for a second that didn't start with love for the person. And if we don't start with love for the person, then you never get the opportunity to let Jesus make the change in them. End of theological rant. I'm not going to rebut your individual contentions. There's a whole thread in there. I absolutely agree with you that Christ had a great love for sinners. It's important that Christians examine how he manifested that love. What he did and didn't tolerate. What his focus was. The prevailing attitude today is "oh, well, he just loved and tolerated everything". Well bull honky on that. I realize that people on my side of the argument have to be careful about judging too harshly, being unforgiving, hating, self-righteousness, and substituting our own laws for the laws of God, and it's not lost on me that Christ said it would be more tolerable in the Day of Judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for the zealots in Capernaum. But the Bible is absolutely uncompromising in its statement that love does not compromise and tolerate acts that scripture condemns. As I say, I don't go around condemning transgendered people or trying to upset them by using gender pronouns they don't like, but if the topic comes up for discussion, to heck with hedging my words. I don't know if there's anyone left reading this message board even slightly receptive to my arguments, but there were at least a few I was able to connect with in days gone by.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 22:18:14 GMT -5
I'm obviously not able to articulate my point. I don't care what people say, but sometimes people do a lot worse and avoiding that is part of my reality. Am I overly sensitive? Maybe. But being sensitive isn't something that I will apologize for. I get that. There was one time that TD almost kicked me off old YM bc one of the topics got too personal to me and Dark Honor got under my skin with some of his comments and I went off and got very personal. And 1) I am not a sensitive type and 2) I don't take posts on message boards seriously at ALL! And yet, it got to me. So, I get it. I don't know if it's all semantics, but I hear a lot of disdain and disgust coming from Virgil, but not really hatred. And I completely respect if you are getting a different feel and as a matter of fact, I do think that Virgil Showlion should cool it, bc even if unintentionally, he is being so hurtful, he should probably take that into consideration. My feelings aren't hurt by his posts, but I substitute every they/them in his posts with my husbands name and I do read his posts as hateful. If I were posting about Christians the way he posts about transgendered people I think he would view it as an attack against his values and a threat to his lifestyle.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 22:22:29 GMT -5
My view is in direct opposition to virtually everybody else's in this thread. Anyone more conservative has already been run off the board on a rail You post about conservatives being run off the board and leaving because they can't stand the place. Why is that? Given our COC and fairly aggressive moderating of interpersonal attacks, I'm assuming they weren't physically hurt or even personally attacked... so your statement implies they left because they didn't feel welcome because others didn't share or respect their beliefs. So you can understand how powerful it can be to feel the lack of respect, even in such a relatively safe space as this message board. Imagine how it might feel to be transgendered and feel that - and much, much more - in real life. Your words of condemnation and hatred were strong and they can be powerful as you must certainly know given how you can see that words seem to have driven off all the conservatives.
You can't convert people you have alienated or hurt.
If I wanted to convert people, this message board is the last place on Earth I'd ever attempt it. As for why conservatives deserted: they weren't compatible with the culture of this board, and this was made known to them. I'm not going to rock the boat any more than that. My point was that there's a reason I'm the most conservative poster left on the board, and it's definitely not because there aren't a legion of message board posters out there further right than me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 22:31:46 GMT -5
I get that. There was one time that TD almost kicked me off old YM bc one of the topics got too personal to me and Dark Honor got under my skin with some of his comments and I went off and got very personal. And 1) I am not a sensitive type and 2) I don't take posts on message boards seriously at ALL! And yet, it got to me. So, I get it. I don't know if it's all semantics, but I hear a lot of disdain and disgust coming from Virgil, but not really hatred. And I completely respect if you are getting a different feel and as a matter of fact, I do think that Virgil Showlion should cool it, bc even if unintentionally, he is being so hurtful, he should probably take that into consideration. My feelings aren't hurt by his posts, but I substitute every they/them in his posts with my husbands name and I do read his posts as hateful. If I were posting about Christians the way he posts about transgendered people I think he would view it as an attack against his values and a threat to his lifestyle. I've been called ignorant, delusional, hateful, suicide-inspiring, old, beholden to ideas that need to die, hypocritical, ... I've probably missed a few... right here in this thread. I'm still here. I still like you guys. If I'm hateful, I guess that makes you all evil incarnate. If criticism on a message board is a threat to my lifestyle, then I should be out in the back yard building me a bunker and hoarding firearms. ETA: Incidentally, if you want to see people gleefully ripping the flesh off of Christians, I think the Duggars thread is still in the hot topics index.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 22:40:20 GMT -5
My feelings aren't hurt by his posts, but I substitute every they/them in his posts with my husbands name and I do read his posts as hateful. If I were posting about Christians the way he posts about transgendered people I think he would view it as an attack against his values and a threat to his lifestyle. I've been called ignorant, delusional, hateful, suicide-inspiring, old, beholden to ideas that need to die, hypocritical, ... I've probably missed a few... right here in this thread. I'm still here. I still like you guys. If I'm hateful, I guess that makes you all evil incarnate. If criticism on a message board is a threat to my lifestyle, then I should be out in the back yard building me a bunker and hoarding firearms. ETA: Incidentally, if you want to see people gleefully ripping the flesh off of Christians, I think the Duggars thread is still in the hot topics index. I have to admit, the posts calling you "old" had me cackling aloud. I don't think most of us think of you as hateful, Virgil. Most don't share your views, but most in the general population don't share your views, so that shouldn't be anything new in your experience. I'm glad to hear you still like us. I know I still like you. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't have to fully understand your thought processes to continue to like you. Like you, however, most here (including me) will stand up for what we believe to be right. There's nothing personal, inherent or intended, in that.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 22:45:09 GMT -5
I'm curious as to why you *obviously* would not date. You claim that you would accept your reality, but it sounds like that's not true and you want to remain living in your "deluded" state if you, as a proper woman, did not want to date men. Are you saying if you suddenly found out you were a woman, you would remain attracted to women and thus be gay? The hypothetical assumes my mind would remain as it is now, hence I would retain my sexual attraction towards women. Homosexuality as the Bible defines it is lusting after members of the same sex, and having sexual relations with members of the same sex. Since I'd be perfectly capable of refraining from both while a woman, no, I would not "be gay".
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 2, 2015 22:47:29 GMT -5
Wow. Thirteen pages and there are still people who actually care about which gender someone else (who they've never met) wants to live as....
I get the feeling that, no matter how much time or thought I devote to this, the only response I will ever be able to manage is, "Glad it's not me. Must have been rough all this time. Good luck to him/her."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 22:47:35 GMT -5
Homosexuality is not defined by the bible.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jun 2, 2015 22:51:39 GMT -5
My feelings aren't hurt by his posts, but I substitute every they/them in his posts with my husbands name and I do read his posts as hateful. If I were posting about Christians the way he posts about transgendered people I think he would view it as an attack against his values and a threat to his lifestyle. I've been called ignorant, delusional, hateful, suicide-inspiring, old, beholden to ideas that need to die, hypocritical, ... I've probably missed a few... right here in this thread. I'm still here. I still like you guys. If I'm hateful, I guess that makes you all evil incarnate. If criticism on a message board is a threat to my lifestyle, then I should be out in the back yard building me a bunker and hoarding firearms. ETA: Incidentally, if you want to see people gleefully ripping the flesh off of Christians, I think the Duggars thread is still in the hot topics index. Yeah, that one was the worst! And I'm so glad I typically avoid anything Duggar just based on comments over here about that thread!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 22:54:57 GMT -5
I'm curious as to why you *obviously* would not date. You claim that you would accept your reality, but it sounds like that's not true and you want to remain living in your "deluded" state if you, as a proper woman, did not want to date men. Are you saying if you suddenly found out you were a woman, you would remain attracted to women and thus be gay? The hypothetical assumes my mind would remain as it is now, hence I would retain my sexual attraction towards women. Homosexuality as the Bible defines it is lusting after members of the same sex, and having sexual relations with members of the same sex. Since I'd be perfectly capable of refraining from both while a woman, no, I would not "be gay". As I understand it (from what I've read), Ms. Jenner is still attracted to women. Sexuality and gender don't necessarily go hand in hand. I only hope we can someday, with all out modern technology, untangle the web that determines things like sexuality and gender. If we can understand how our DNA, cellular divisions, and brain/nerve function works more thoroughly than we do at present, these mysteries will become more clear.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 22:57:02 GMT -5
I've been called ignorant, delusional, hateful, suicide-inspiring, old, beholden to ideas that need to die, hypocritical, ... I've probably missed a few... right here in this thread. I'm still here. I still like you guys. If I'm hateful, I guess that makes you all evil incarnate. If criticism on a message board is a threat to my lifestyle, then I should be out in the back yard building me a bunker and hoarding firearms. ETA: Incidentally, if you want to see people gleefully ripping the flesh off of Christians, I think the Duggars thread is still in the hot topics index. Yeah, that one was the worst! And I'm so glad I typically avoid anything Duggar just based on comments over here about that thread! I do the same, POM. I'm just not interested in the Duggars. I do, of course, care about children and child abuse (actually, any abuse of the helpless). That's my one real hot-button issue. For those reasons, I didn't get much involved in the Duggar thread.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 22:58:57 GMT -5
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 2, 2015 23:06:37 GMT -5
I agree 100% with you in what you're saying. I too still like Virgil - and respect his opinion - that hasn't changed - and I doubt it ever will - we've agreed and disagreed more than a few times in the past.
I do understand his personal feelings and opinions on the subject - and they're his to own. And I also understand those of others on the opposite side of the fence on this and other "hot topics".
We all haven't had the same upbringing or life experiences so getting everyone to agree on everything is a pipe-dream.
What I find a problem with is those who want to constantly push their agenda or views onto others without tolerance of opposing views.
We're not programmed robots - we're individuals with minds of our own. B/C's decisions are B/C's to own and if it brings peace and healing for the life that's been lived this long as a lie in B/C's heart & being, that's all that matters in the long run.
Tolerance goes a long way to make this world a better place.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 23:13:07 GMT -5
Ack! That one's a real mind-blower! If it's difficult to understand transgender, transabled will send you screaming to the nearest loony bin!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 23:13:20 GMT -5
I've been called ignorant, delusional, hateful, suicide-inspiring, old, beholden to ideas that need to die, hypocritical, ... I've probably missed a few... right here in this thread. I'm still here. I still like you guys. If I'm hateful, I guess that makes you all evil incarnate. If criticism on a message board is a threat to my lifestyle, then I should be out in the back yard building me a bunker and hoarding firearms. ETA: Incidentally, if you want to see people gleefully ripping the flesh off of Christians, I think the Duggars thread is still in the hot topics index. Yeah, that one was the worst! And I'm so glad I typically avoid anything Duggar just based on comments over here about that thread! I guess they're going to do an interview on FOX, so there'll be plenty more Duggar mayhem to go around. At one point a poster presented a "summary" of my arguments so arse backwards I thought (s)he was trying to spite me, but it was later pointed out to me that (s)he probably believed what (s)he was saying, at which point I realized I might as well have been making armpit farts for all the good it would do me, and I took my leave. That was my brief and memorable adventure in Duggarland.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 23:17:24 GMT -5
Yeah, that one was the worst! And I'm so glad I typically avoid anything Duggar just based on comments over here about that thread! I guess they're going to do an interview on FOX, so there'll be plenty more Duggar mayhem to go around. At one point a poster presented a "summary" of my arguments so arse backwards I thought (s)he was trying to spite me, but it was later pointed out to me that (s)he probably believed what (s)he was saying, at which point I realized I might as well have been making armpit farts for all the good it would do me, and I took my leave. That was my brief and memorable adventure in Duggarland. I've never seen an episode of the Duggar's TV programming. All I knew of them when this thread started was what I'd seen while perusing the news. I did do a bit more reading because of this thread but it's just not something that interests me. It's their way of living. As long as they're not hurting anyone else, I don't much care. What happened to the little girls is the only pertinent thing to me. The rest of them (adults) are welcome to do as they please. They bore me, to be honest.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 2, 2015 23:17:45 GMT -5
If only the Duggars would come to the same realization about themselves....
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 23:24:29 GMT -5
Ack! That one's a real mind-blower! If it's difficult to understand transgender, transabled will send you screaming to the nearest loony bin! Am I the only one who has never heard of this before?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 2, 2015 23:26:18 GMT -5
Ack! That one's a real mind-blower! If it's difficult to understand transgender, transabled will send you screaming to the nearest loony bin! Am I the only one who has never heard of this before? Probably not. It's pretty darned rare. I don't have any idea how many of these folks there may be in the states, but I'd think not many.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 23:38:14 GMT -5
Ack! That one's a real mind-blower! If it's difficult to understand transgender, transabled will send you screaming to the nearest loony bin! Am I the only one who has never heard of this before? I heard about it years ago on a show debating whether a doctor should be able to refuse to amputate healthy limbs. Look up "body dismorphism disorder" and you'll find literally dozens of syndromes where people "don't feel right" in their body. People who take "furrie" culture seriously have a similar problem. They can't interact, or even function in some cases, without dressing up like animals, and many of them genuinely believe they have "animal spirits". Most don't take it that far, but some do, and I have no doubt they're as convicted of their beliefs as Mr. Jenner or transracialists or transabled or anyone else on that list. What I did learn about in this thread was girls wearing boys clothes and shooting up with testosterone to grow beards because of a fad. I'll just say "no comment" at this point.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 2, 2015 23:47:31 GMT -5
I've been called ignorant, delusional, hateful, suicide-inspiring, old, beholden to ideas that need to die, hypocritical, ... I've probably missed a few... right here in this thread. I'm still here. I still like you guys. If I'm hateful, I guess that makes you all evil incarnate. If criticism on a message board is a threat to my lifestyle, then I should be out in the back yard building me a bunker and hoarding firearms. ETA: Incidentally, if you want to see people gleefully ripping the flesh off of Christians, I think the Duggars thread is still in the hot topics index. I have to admit, the posts calling you "old" had me cackling aloud. I don't think most of us think of you as hateful, Virgil. Most don't share your views, but most in the general population don't share your views, so that shouldn't be anything new in your experience. I'm glad to hear you still like us. I know I still like you. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't have to fully understand your thought processes to continue to like you. Like you, however, most here (including me) will stand up for what we believe to be right. There's nothing personal, inherent or intended, in that. Well said, mmhmm. However, the difference between how you act and how others act is great. I've seen the word "hate" thrown about in reference to Virgil's posts. I've not seen anything coming close to hate in his posts. I've seen him compared with the KKK and the Nazis. I've not seen Virgil post anywhere that he wished to murder innocent people. It's hysterics used when true argument fails. I find that reprehensible and I will no longer even address the possibility that said posters have anything to contribute here.
The difference between you, mmhmm, and some others here is that you debate honestly. You don't try to elevate yourself by knocking down others. You actually care that what you say is true and not some whackadoodle accusation made because you can't get someone to bow down to your opinion. You speak what YOU feel...not what the cool kids want you to feel. You should be proud of that. Virgil is right, tho. Perhaps "run off the board" wasn't exactly the right term, but there are many of us who tend to just stay on the "what shall I wear to the wedding" threads because it gets old posting and then having the same posters get all nasty and trying to bully a person into being quiet. Constant sarcastic nastiness gets old to just about everyone other than the sarcastic nasties.
I disagree with Virgil on this particular issue mostly because I just don't care what others do as long as they aren't harming others. I will, when my time comes, have to answer for MY life's choices - not the choices of others. I will have much to answer for but it won't be for mistreating those who don't happen to live their lives the way I live mine. It's just not my business. I wish the media would stop trying to make it my business, but that's not going to happen because...well....it sells.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 3, 2015 0:18:39 GMT -5
I have to admit, the posts calling you "old" had me cackling aloud. I don't think most of us think of you as hateful, Virgil. Most don't share your views, but most in the general population don't share your views, so that shouldn't be anything new in your experience. I'm glad to hear you still like us. I know I still like you. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't have to fully understand your thought processes to continue to like you. Like you, however, most here (including me) will stand up for what we believe to be right. There's nothing personal, inherent or intended, in that. Well said, mmhmm. However, the difference between how you act and how others act is great. I've seen the word "hate" thrown about in reference to Virgil's posts. I've not seen anything coming close to hate in his posts. I've seen him compared with the KKK and the Nazis. I've not seen Virgil post anywhere that he wished to murder innocent people. It's hysterics used when true argument fails. I find that reprehensible and I will no longer even address the possibility that said posters have anything to contribute here.
The difference between you, mmhmm, and some others here is that you debate honestly. You don't try to elevate yourself by knocking down others. You actually care that what you say is true and not some whackadoodle accusation made because you can't get someone to bow down to your opinion. You speak what YOU feel...not what the cool kids want you to feel. You should be proud of that. Virgil is right, tho. Perhaps "run off the board" wasn't exactly the right term, but there are many of us who tend to just stay on the "what shall I wear to the wedding" threads because it gets old posting and then having the same posters get all nasty and trying to bully a person into being quiet. Constant sarcastic nastiness gets old to just about everyone other than the sarcastic nasties.
I disagree with Virgil on this particular issue mostly because I just don't care what others do as long as they aren't harming others. I will, when my time comes, have to answer for MY life's choices - not the choices of others. I will have much to answer for but it won't be for mistreating those who don't happen to live their lives the way I live mine. It's just not my business. I wish the media would stop trying to make it my business, but that's not going to happen because...well....it sells.
I certainly agree Virgil is not filled with hatred and I have seen some say he is posting with hatred. I believe them to be mistaken. He's certainly not anything like the KKK or the Nazis; nor, have I seen him say he wished to murder anyone. While I don't recall seeing folks make those comparisons, I probably wouldn't record such statements in memory as they're rather ludicrous, to me. I do try to present what views I might have as honestly as I can. I don't expect others to agree with me, necessarily. I can only speak to what I believe and try very hard not to judge others for what they believe. That's why I stay away from hot-button issues, for the most part. Yet, everyone should be able to state their views on a subject (within the confines of the ToS and CoC) and support those views vigorously. That's what happens here and it's, for the most part, a good thing. Because we're human, we'll run off the tracks into the land of Hyperbole, or the island of Exaggeration - even the village of Vitriol, at times. If it's best for some to stay away from issues that tend to get their tempers fired up, that's certainly a good thing to do for that person (I sure do it!) I still don't see anyone being chased from a message board. If one can't take disagreement, and can't stand up for one's beliefs without resorting to insult, or outright nastiness, that person probably doesn't belong on message boards unless they're ones that hold the same views as that person. As to the media, they provide what the public wants. I think that's something we have to face. If we (the generic "we") didn't slaver over sensationalized content, the media wouldn't go to such lengths to provide it. They're in it for the bucks and the bucks come from advertising to the readership. If you don't have the readership you don't get the bucks. So, as I see it, the public at large is responsible for what the media provides.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 3, 2015 3:37:45 GMT -5
Am I the only one who has never heard of this before? I heard about it years ago on a show debating whether a doctor should be able to refuse to amputate healthy limbs. Look up "body dismorphism disorder" and you'll find literally dozens of syndromes where people "don't feel right" in their body. People who take "furrie" culture seriously have a similar problem. They can't interact, or even function in some cases, without dressing up like animals, and many of them genuinely believe they have "animal spirits". Most don't take it that far, but some do, and I have no doubt they're as convicted of their beliefs as Mr. Jenner or transracialists or transabled or anyone else on that list. What I did learn about in this thread was girls wearing boys clothes and shooting up with testosterone to grow beards because of a fad. I'll just say "no comment" at this point. Native Americans believe they have animal spirits. Is this really that different?
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2015 5:15:55 GMT -5
I heard about it years ago on a show debating whether a doctor should be able to refuse to amputate healthy limbs. Look up "body dismorphism disorder" and you'll find literally dozens of syndromes where people "don't feel right" in their body. People who take "furrie" culture seriously have a similar problem. They can't interact, or even function in some cases, without dressing up like animals, and many of them genuinely believe they have "animal spirits". Most don't take it that far, but some do, and I have no doubt they're as convicted of their beliefs as Mr. Jenner or transracialists or transabled or anyone else on that list. What I did learn about in this thread was girls wearing boys clothes and shooting up with testosterone to grow beards because of a fad. I'll just say "no comment" at this point. Native Americans believe they have animal spirits. Is this really that different? They could presumably function without dressing up like animals, and they weren't prone to suicide, anxiety attacks, and deep self-loathing outside of that environment, so... yes. I mention animal spirits only because in a video of one particular convention, the keynote speaker was an anthropologist and this was this thesis. He was an animal who basically had to put up with being human.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 3, 2015 5:23:09 GMT -5
To me it's pointless to debate this topic since it strikes at the core of one's belief system. In short, you'll never change anyone's opinion on it and no one will change your opinion on it.
Maybe not in a single thread. But over time, people do change. Based on what they see and experience, many people do change.
Look at the decline in people identifying with organized religion in the US. Religious beliefs are fairly "core" to one's belief system, yet people are increasingly deciding that they do not hold those beliefs any more.
Over time, what we see influences us for the better or the worse. Over time, what we experience changes what we "know". IMHO intelligent people are always seeking new information against which to examine their beliefs and hone their understanding.
My parents had a friend of a friend who was trans, so because I asked "who is that?" about a photo, I knew what a transgendered person was at age 6. Honestly I'm surprised they explained the whole thing. They could have easily said "that is X" and left it at that. My parents explained to me, that person used to be a man and is now a woman (I knew this person as a woman). I don't remember having any specific thoughts about it. Maybe that exposure is the reason I am not "bothered" by transgendered people?
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 3, 2015 5:35:02 GMT -5
That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism?
Have you answered that question here, or do you not want to get into it? (I'm asking seriously, not trying to be snarky) What are these consequences you keep mentioning of accepting different ways people want to live that have no bearing on you or me or anyone else? I was wondering that also, has it been answered yet? I don't think so. I am guessing the demise of family values?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 6:09:23 GMT -5
That nobody cares why anyone would object to transgenderism?
Have you answered that question here, or do you not want to get into it? (I'm asking seriously, not trying to be snarky) What are these consequences you keep mentioning of accepting different ways people want to live that have no bearing on you or me or anyone else? I was wondering that also, has it been answered yet? I don't think so. I am guessing the demise of family values? For me, it wasn't the demise of family values specifically but the idea of what it is to be a man/woman and how we reproduce. I feel as though we are trying to biologically change the human race through science, technology, and medicine. Most of these advancements are great as they allow people to live longer (although I'm on the fence about trying to keep people alive who essentially have to live in a bubble), but I feel like we are trying to circumvent instinct and human nature. Actively suppressing any expression of gender to me is unnatural as they play essential roles in human survival. I'm not saying that the roles can't change around a bit, but they don't have to be so drastic. We've been around for 10,000+ years so I think humans have been doing it right for a while. Yes there is still famine and disease in a lot of places, and no we can't fix it all (and I'm not 100% sure we should from a biological perspective). But we're still here. So why are we trying to fix what isn't really broken? I hope I make sense. It's 7:10am and I'm typing on my phone.
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