Bruce Jenner Interview

[Opti]

Apr 29, 2015 16:53:37 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 29, 2015 16:21:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

We have two good hard right Blazers on the board. Paul and you. You don't sound cowed or bleeding heart at all to me.

If I'd known you didn't discriminate, I'd have gone on longer about Mr. Jenner's "perverse, bastardized notion of synthetic femininity", or the "depravity and insanity" of the Americans praising him.

Consider (ibid.):

As the doctor points out, “transgenders” have a suicide rate 20 times higher than the general population — after surgery. Naturally, we’re told the astronomically high rates of suicide, drug abuse, and depression among gender confused people can be blamed on “bullying,” but this is a convenient and dishonest assumption. The truth is, “transgenders” are plagued with a mental delusion that makes it difficult for them to accept reality, which may tempt them to permanently escape it. The best thing we can do is help them to accept the world for what it is and themselves for who they are. The worst thing we can do is play along with a fantasy that’s clearly causing them immense torment and pain.

That's one of... like... fifty arguments I didn't make that Walsh does.

Did I accuse you of perpetuating Mr. Jenner's torment? No.

Did I accuse you of depravity and insanity? No.

Did I accuse you of the other 49 things Walsh does? No.

You guys got powder puff Virgil, not a real conservative. You're getting off easy.

Get off easy on what Virgil?

If you want to argue with Welts or SL or whomever do it with them, not me OK?

Playing along with the notions of what it means to be male and what it means to be female, i.e. gender roles is what is causing them to give up and suicide early. I've read enough in the past and recently to get that.

Gender roles have been something that has interested me for years much like semantics and words. I don't believe in a one size fits all feminine or masculine ideal. Bruce's search for his true self through gender does not bother me. Confuses me a bit, because again, I wonder if gender roles were replaced with gender tendencies and bodies were just bodies, what would the impact be on sex roles, rates of homosexuality, transgenders, etc.?

Much of our social constructs are artificial probably based on tendencies as we started our human journey. For those who believe in evolution, back then both men and women probably had long hair, hairy legs. Women were less hairy because of their genetic makeup so today women are supposed to shave their legs and men are not. Its been encoded into part of the gender role code including clothing, acceptable perfume choices, etc. Sometimes I think I got the wrong life, but apparently there's no surgery or name for that.

[Opti]

Apr 29, 2015 19:37:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 29, 2015 17:44:41 GMT -5 @joey said:

A lot of people don't "get" what transgender is.

I suspect that's because a lot of people don't believe one can successfully change gender.

I don't fully get it, but to me meh, what's a successful change? Not my life, not my issue, carry on hope it works out for you.

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 29, 2015 20:18:57 GMT -5 Opti said:

Apr 29, 2015 19:37:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I suspect that's because a lot of people don't believe one can successfully change gender.

I don't fully get it, but to me meh, what's a successful change? Not my life, not my issue, carry on hope it works out for you.

I think the "Meh, what's a successful change?" is where the difference lies. Not many conservatives do "Meh."

You do realize this isn't just a fellow quietly minding his business in the corner somewhere. This was a very public national news spectacle where (from what I've seen) Mr. Jenner makes a very deliberate effort to normalize his behaviour.

Hypothetically, suppose we discard the presumption that transgenderism isn't harmless, and I think even you would have to admit that "Bruce Jenner, America's special hero" (as embodied by the gushing praise in Mr. Walsh's collection of "tweets") is a dangerous narrative. We live in a society where people desperately crave attention, the media lavishes it on certain groups of people, and younger generations especially lap it up without the slightest bit of concern for the consequences.

Not to mention that a good third of Walsh's article is devoted to how transgenderism is being insinuated into all the curricular niches and cracks they can stuff it into. I'm sure we were all shocked to learn about that.

Agree with it. Don't agree with it. Just don't insult my intelligence by telling me it's all nicely contained in a tight little bubble around Mr. Jenner and his ideas can't possibly hurt anyone.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

If you want to argue with Welts or SL or whomever do it with them, not me OK?

He's debating with you because right now, you're the most active member (besides him) who's posting.

And as of now, I see a lot of repetition of what's already been said and said again.

As for arguing with SL, this SL is bowing out until the dust settles.

[Deleted]

Apr 29, 2015 19:37:01 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 29, 2015 17:44:41 GMT -5 @joey said:

A lot of people don't "get" what transgender is.

I suspect that's because a lot of people don't believe one can successfully change gender.

One would have to understand the mental vs the physical element in order to understand the transgender ideology.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

We live in a society where people desperately crave attention, the media lavishes it on certain groups of people, and younger generations especially lap it up without the slightest bit of concern for the consequences

You do realize that you can't just decide to become transgender and cut off your tallybits b/c you saw it on TV right?

For Bruce to be where he is at now he's had to have a massive amount of specialized therapy and be formally diagnosed as transgender.

Then there are several years spent "living as the opposite gender" without involving hormones or anything else.

Then if you decide to go thru with the surgery there are even more hoops to jump thru. There are a lot of medical ethics involved.

You may think it's all attention seeking behavior but the psychological and medical community disagree with you.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Not to mention that a good third of Walsh's article is devoted to how transgenderism is being insinuated into all the curricular niches and cracks they can stuff it into. I'm sure we were all shocked to learn about that.

I learned about transgenderism in high school. I graduated in 2002. It was discussed in my psychology class and my sociology class.

Your Mr. Walsh is panicking about something that has been around for a long time.

[justme]

I remember reading an article a while back, probably a few years now, about autopsies that were done on transgenders. Those that were mtf were found to have feminised brains like their genetically female counterparts. That's about all I remember from it but it was interesting.

Considering that all fetuses essentially start out female and then become male thanks to the proper introduction of hormones the whole idea doesn't seem that far fetched.

[Opti]

I think the "Meh, what's a successful change?" is where the difference lies. Not many conservatives do "Meh."

Some conservatives do "Meh". On this no less. My fave conservative friend like me wouldn't care because it does not affect us.

[Opti]

Apr 29, 2015 22:15:57 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

If you want to argue with Welts or SL or whomever do it with them, not me OK?

He's debating with you because right now, you're the most active member (besides him) who's posting.

And as of now, I see a lot of repetition of what's already been said and said again.

As for arguing with SL, this SL is bowing out until the dust settles.

I had that feeling. I think Virgil feels since we three are not advancing the "conservative" argument that we necessarily think the same. There are significant variations I can see on how you, Welts and I are posting on this topic.

I'll try avoid too.

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 30, 2015 12:22:27 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

You may think it's all attention seeking behavior but the psychological and medical community disagree with you.

Firstly, I don't think it's all that. Like anything, there are many factors.

Secondly, I'm long past trusting posters' third-hand assessments of what the "psychological and medical community" think. Show me a specific study that demonstrates transgendered people who undergo surgery are better off than transgendered people who don't, and we'll talk. Or suggest to me how scientists would even go about quantifying the "Bruce Jenner the hero" effect on younger generations, and we'll talk.

I want peer-reviewed studies. Not "Dr. So and So says transgenderism is A-OK" websites.

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 30, 2015 12:42:16 GMT -5 justme said:

I remember reading an article a while back, probably a few years now, about autopsies that were done on transgenders. Those that were mtf were found to have feminised brains like their genetically female counterparts. That's about all I remember from it but it was interesting.

Considering that all fetuses essentially start out female and then become male thanks to the proper introduction of hormones the whole idea doesn't seem that far fetched.

Source? Link?

Junk science is ubiquitous on the Internet.

[justme]

Apr 30, 2015 15:06:08 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 30, 2015 12:42:16 GMT -5 justme said:

I remember reading an article a while back, probably a few years now, about autopsies that were done on transgenders. Those that were mtf were found to have feminised brains like their genetically female counterparts. That's about all I remember from it but it was interesting.

Considering that all fetuses essentially start out female and then become male thanks to the proper introduction of hormones the whole idea doesn't seem that far fetched.

Source? Link?

Junk science is ubiquitous on the Internet.

Google it. I mentioned it was a few years ago so no I don't have the link to that article. But Google will turn up several articles that were published in scientific journals. It's becoming more important study as the goal is to have a test that identifies transgender before puberty as it is easier to transition if your body hasn't already developed into the wrong sex.

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 30, 2015 15:40:50 GMT -5 justme said:

Apr 30, 2015 15:06:08 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Source? Link?

Junk science is ubiquitous on the Internet.

Google it. I mentioned it was a few years ago so no I don't have the link to that article. But Google will turn up several articles that were published in scientific journals. It's becoming more important study as the goal is to have a test that identifies transgender before puberty as it is easier to transition if your body hasn't already developed into the wrong sex.

I shall look it up when I next have time. It sounds like it's going to be one of those things that pertains to some 0.01% of the population with a specific genetic defect (read: not Bruce Jenner).

[weltschmerz]

Heh. Speaking of "genetic defects".

Here is a whole crapload of conservative anti-LGBT activists who turned out to be.....ta daa!....gay.

www.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti-gay-activists-caught-being-gay/joanne?format=SLIDESHOW&page=1

I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

[justme]

Apr 30, 2015 15:52:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 30, 2015 15:40:50 GMT -5 justme said:

Google it. I mentioned it was a few years ago so no I don't have the link to that article. But Google will turn up several articles that were published in scientific journals. It's becoming more important study as the goal is to have a test that identifies transgender before puberty as it is easier to transition if your body hasn't already developed into the wrong sex.

I shall look it up when I next have time. It sounds like it's going to be one of those things that pertains to some 0.01% of the population with a specific genetic defect (read: not Bruce Jenner).

Um I don't think transgender make up that much more than 0.01%. It's definitely a small percent, way less common than homosexuality.

[Robert not Bobby]

Apr 25, 2015 12:49:04 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Did anyone watch?

It's a crazy world, but some people are that way. So...live and let live.