Bruce Jenner Interview

[Green Eyed Lady]

Virgil....I will never know what it's like to actually feel a mother's love for her child because I won't have any.  I can observe my friends and my family, but I'll never really know what that feels like.  I think this may be the same thing.  It may seem irrational to both you and me, but until we've lived it, I don't think we can understand.  I would venture to say that he is so miserable as he is that he's willing to take on all those things you mentioned to be happy.  I don't know, but I wish him peace.

ETA:  I didn't mean to imply a mother's love for her child is irrational....just that it's something a person can't truly know unless they've lived it.

[swamp]

Apr 28, 2015 14:18:38 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 28, 2015 13:55:23 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Why would he need to choose a feminine name that's similar to his current one?

Why does he need to change his name at all?

Why is he throwing away a perfectly healthy body for one riddled with scars, trauma, implants, and drugs?

We're not going to get anywhere if we assume any of this is rational.

Because his mind doesn't match his body.

Whether or not you want to believe it, there are people out there who honestly, truly, and really, really, really, with all their heart and soul, believe they belong in another gender's body. It's not right or wrong, it just is.

Why isn't it rational that sometimes there is a fluke in embryonic/fetal development?

How about some compassion for these people instead of just labeling them freaks?

ETA:  Virgil, I've noticed that whenever we discuss something outside of the "societal norms" (victims of sexual assault, domestic violence, transgenderism, substance abuse) you don't know anyone who is dealing with that issue.   Do you have a really small circle of people you know, are you really naïve, or do you hang with perfect people?

[swamp]

Apr 28, 2015 14:46:36 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Virgil....I will never know what it's like to actually feel a mother's love for her child because I won't have any.  I can observe my friends and my family, but I'll never really know what that feels like.  I think this may be the same thing.  It may seem irrational to both you and me, but until we've lived it, I don't think we can understand.  I would venture to say that he is so miserable as he is that he's willing to take on all those things you mentioned to be happy.  I don't know, but I wish him peace.

ETA:  I didn't mean to imply a mother's love for her child is irrational....just that it's something a person can't truly know unless they've lived it.

A guy has to be pretty unhappy to contemplate lopping off his beans and frank.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Why is he throwing away a perfectly healthy body for one riddled with scars, trauma, implants, and drugs?

We're not going to get anywhere if we assume any of this is rational.

Do you really think of his decision as irrational? He's not alone in what he's going through - others have gone through the same struggles and done the procedure - they're born one gender, but trapped in the physical anatomy of the other.

It isn't something he or others enter into lightly when they begin the process of gender replacement surgery. Others weren't in the public spotlight being as heavily scrutinized as Mr Jenner.

Since he's undergone extensive psychological counseling before reaching his final decision, I don't consider it an irrational one or one he made in haste.

It may seem like it's an irrational decision to you, but not to those who are living it.

[NancysSummerSip]

Apr 28, 2015 14:18:38 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 28, 2015 13:55:23 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Why would he need to choose a feminine name that's similar to his current one?

Why does he need to change his name at all?

Why is he throwing away a perfectly healthy body for one riddled with scars, trauma, implants, and drugs?

We're not going to get anywhere if we assume any of this is rational.

Funny, I got a similar line from people when I had a breast reduction. That and the fact that I was going to roast in hell for changing what God gave me.

For all we know, Jenner may heal quite well. Scarring could be minimal, even at his age. A lot depends on surgical skill, aftercare and heredity. I have no scars from my surgery, but not everyone gets that kind of result.

And while his current body appears to be reasonably healthy, the soul inside of it clearly is not. Or at least, the soul and the body are at odds with one another. Regardless of his obvious physical health, the struggle between who Jenner is and who Jenner really is will result in a breakdown somewhere; he has mentioned that he did consider suicide at one point.

And as far as us "getting anywhere if we assume any of this is rational," it's not up to any of us who have not been through it to decide what is or is not rational here. To someone who knows that their mind and body are a mismatch, nothing is or will be rational until the mismatch is somehow corrected, no matter what it takes.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2015 14:18:38 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 28, 2015 13:55:23 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Why would he need to choose a feminine name that's similar to his current one?

Why does he need to change his name at all?

Why is he throwing away a perfectly healthy body for one riddled with scars, trauma, implants, and drugs?

We're not going to get anywhere if we assume any of this is rational.

Several years ago I saw a show on Discovery network (I think), it was called "I Am My Own Twin". The show was about chimeras, not the mythological ones, the genetic ones. It explained how 2 eggs can fuse together within the first 3 days of conception and one person is born but they have the genetic makeup of both eggs, things like 2 sets of DNA, and how that explains people being born with genitalia from both genders even though that's very rare. It's not known how many chimeras there are because most people aren't put into situations where they'd find out. The people I remember from the show were mothers who had DNA tests and their DNA in the original tests didn't match their children's DNA, but they knew the children were theirs. Watching that show, it wasn't a leap for me to think that there could be a scientific explanation for why some people feel in their heart and soul that their physical gender doesn't match who they really are. Maybe they're chimeras. Maybe there's another explanation. Whatever the cause, who am I to say they're just being irrational?

I'll never forget that show. It was very interesting. To me, at least.

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 28, 2015 14:46:36 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It may seem irrational to both you and me, but until we've lived it, I don't think we can understand.

A mother's love for her child has a clear, beneficial purpose. Maternal bonding has a clear, beneficial purpose. I may not be able to experience either of them, but I can understand them from a rational standpoint.

The same doesn't apply here. This is far closer to the other forms of body dismorphism such as anorexia nervosa.

Apr 28, 2015 14:52:42 GMT -5 swamp said:

Whether or not you want to believe it, there are people out there who honestly, truly, and really, really, really, with all their heart and soul, believe they belong in another gender's body. It's not right or wrong, it just is.

I'm contending it's irrational. He's upending his life, throwing away his identity, and subjecting his body to surgical trauma, etc. at massive expense... for what?

What does it mean to "feel like a woman"? Does he feel unattractive as a man, and that surgery and drugs will make him attractive? It won't.

Does he crave feminine things like dresses, high heels, purses, makeup, etc.? Why not indulge in these privately? Why mutilate himself?

If it means anything, I acknowledge that Mr. Jenner really, really, ... wants a sex change, but that hardly makes it a rational desire. Notwithstanding sex changes in young hermaphrodites wanting their gender to comport with their love interests (which is understandable... and extremely rare), I feel the same way about sex changes as about people who mutilate their bodies to look more like certain animals: Why? Why crave that of all things? Why reduce your life to that one dimension?

I'm not going to condemn them. I think they're ill. I think they're throwing away tremendous gifts. What I don't understand is why people consider changing one's appearance from black to white or surgically altering one's appearance to look more like a tiger to be tragic mental illness, but don't extend the same diagnosis to gender reassignment.

Apr 28, 2015 14:52:42 GMT -5 swamp said:

Do you have a really small circle of people you know, are you really naïve, or do you hang with perfect people?

Most of the people I know well are from work, church, my wife's work, my wife's friends, our extended families, and our neighbourhood. They're not "perfect people", but major issues tend to be things like divorce and infidelity.

Apr 28, 2015 14:56:26 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Why is he throwing away a perfectly healthy body for one riddled with scars, trauma, implants, and drugs?

We're not going to get anywhere if we assume any of this is rational.

Do you really think of his decision as irrational? He's not alone in what he's going through - others have gone through the same struggles and done the procedure - they're born one gender, but trapped in the physical anatomy of the other. 

Again: what does that mean? What makes it any different from a rail-thin person's being "trapped in a fat person's body" or a limbless person being "trapped in a body with two legs" (there are people who suffer this kind of dysmorphism), or (arguably) Michael Jackson being a white man "trapped in a black person's body"?

It seems to me that the medical necessity of a hugely invasive surgical/chemical procedure (not to mention cost, stigma, loss of identity, etc.) ought to be the basis on which rationality is determined.

Even plastic surgery is borderline. But here there's at least a reasonable belief there that surgery will successfully improve one's physical attractiveness.

Apr 28, 2015 14:57:04 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

Apr 28, 2015 14:18:38 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Why does he need to change his name at all?

Why is he throwing away a perfectly healthy body for one riddled with scars, trauma, implants, and drugs?

We're not going to get anywhere if we assume any of this is rational.

And while his current body appears to be reasonably healthy, the soul inside of it clearly is not. Or at least, the soul and the body are at odds with one another. Regardless of his obvious physical health, the struggle between who Jenner is and who Jenner really is will result in a breakdown somewhere; he has mentioned that he did consider suicide at one point.

The same is true in many cases of BDD. That doesn't make it rational.

Apr 28, 2015 15:41:17 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

The show was about chimeras, not the mythological ones, the genetic ones.

I learned about chimeras on an episode of "CSI". I seem to recall the condition is a fantastic rarity. And I still don't see it as a rational basis to mutilate a perfectly good body, especially not at 65 years of age.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

The same doesn't apply here. This is far closer to the other forms of body dismorphism such as anorexia nervosa.

Anorexia Nervosa is an eating disorder and is caused by many factors - mostly psychological. But it can also be brought on by undue stress, ridicule,sometimes trauma, and brain chemistry. It is also often fatal if not treated.

(As a survivor of the disease, it's a long and difficult climb to recovery).

ETA: And many young girls are trying to be come super-thin because of all the media/advertising that use rail-thin stick models to portray what they think a woman "should" look like. Most of the sufferers of Anorexia are young females (though the condition isn't limited to just females).

I also don't think that it bears any comparison to the topic of trans-genders and reassignment surgery - including the psychological aspects.

They're two completely unrelated things.

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 28, 2015 17:20:02 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

The same doesn't apply here. This is far closer to the other forms of body dismorphism such as anorexia nervosa.

Anorexia Nervosa is an eating disorder and is caused by many factors - mostly psychological. But it can also be brought on by undue stress, ridicule,sometimes trauma, and brain chemistry. It is also often fatal if not treated.

(As a survivor of the disease, it's a long and difficult climb to recovery).

I also don't think that it bears any comparison to the topic of trans-genders and reassignment surgery - including the psychological aspects.

They're two completely unrelated things.

There are significant differences, certainly.

They're both examples of dismorphism disorders that bring about self-harming behaviours--behaviours that have no benefit outside the mind of the individual suffering the illness. That's the full extent of the comparison I wanted to draw.

[weltschmerz]

A mother's love for her child has a clear, beneficial purpose. Maternal bonding has a clear, beneficial purpose. I may not be able to experience either of them, but I can understand them from a rational standpoint.

The same doesn't apply here. This is far closer to the other forms of body dismorphism such as anorexia nervosa.

Just out of curiousity, where did you get your degree in psychiatry?

In any case, why does this bother you so much? How does it affect you, personally? Why don't you just let him be, instead of ridiculing his name and his decisions?

Must be a Christian trait.

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 28, 2015 20:57:51 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

A mother's love for her child has a clear, beneficial purpose. Maternal bonding has a clear, beneficial purpose. I may not be able to experience either of them, but I can understand them from a rational standpoint.

The same doesn't apply here. This is far closer to the other forms of body dismorphism such as anorexia nervosa.

Just out of curiousity, where did you get your degree in psychiatry?

In any case, why does this bother you so much? How does it affect you, personally? Why don't you just let him be, instead of ridiculing his name and his decisions?

Must be a Christian trait.

I suppose you're right; there's no profit in ridiculing his name.

I blame you for being a bad influence.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Apr 28, 2015 20:57:51 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

A mother's love for her child has a clear, beneficial purpose. Maternal bonding has a clear, beneficial purpose. I may not be able to experience either of them, but I can understand them from a rational standpoint.

The same doesn't apply here. This is far closer to the other forms of body dismorphism such as anorexia nervosa.

Just out of curiousity, where did you get your degree in psychiatry?

In any case, why does this bother you so much? How does it affect you, personally? Why don't you just let him be, instead of ridiculing his name and his decisions?

Must be a Christian trait.

Mad at God again, Weltz?

[weltschmerz]

Apr 28, 2015 21:28:35 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Apr 28, 2015 20:57:51 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Just out of curiousity, where did you get your degree in psychiatry?

In any case, why does this bother you so much? How does it affect you, personally? Why don't you just let him be, instead of ridiculing his name and his decisions?

Must be a Christian trait.

Mad at God again, Weltz?

Can't get mad at something that doesn't exist. It's like being mad at Spiderman.

I do get mad at some Christians, though. Case in point...Virgil. Just because he only hangs out with vanilla people is no reason to mock others who are different.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Hmmm...interesting.  I'd think that if you truly felt that way, you wouldn't be bringing the subject of Him up so much.....more than anybody else almost.   Even when nobody else mentions Him.  If not a belief, maybe a strange obsession....or denial.  Don't know but it's strange.  Seems like you are mad at Him to me.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be giving Him so much press!  I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

[Opti]

I'm contending it's irrational. He's upending his life, throwing away his identity, and subjecting his body to surgical trauma, etc. at massive expense... for what?

What does it mean to "feel like a woman"?

I don't really understand transgender myself, but I do get he's not throwing away his identity. He's trying to make the identity on the outside and what others see match his internal view.

There are reams of books on being a man or a woman and in the end it comes down to what you believe it to be IMO. I have wondered for years if society was less intent on making gender roles different would that impact transgenders? Would less feel the need for change? Perhaps less surgery? Or can things just be not right somehow like the two peni and vaginas we learned about one thread.

He's lived as a man and has wanted to live as a woman. Simple.

[Opti]

Apr 28, 2015 21:43:31 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Hmmm...interesting.  I'd think that if you truly felt that way, you wouldn't be bringing the subject of Him up so much.....more than anybody else almost.   Even when nobody else mentions Him.  If not a belief, maybe a strange obsession....or denial.  Don't know but it's strange.  Seems like you are mad at Him to me.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be giving Him so much press!  I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

I think Welts is less offended by God or Him as you put it, but more offended by certain thought patterns and posted ideas that seem to come more frequently from known Christians.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

May we get back to the thread subject? I don't think this is the place for people arguing one's religious beliefs (or non-beliefs).

Those aren't even allowed on the Religious Discussions" board.

Now back to the topic at hand:

He's lived as a man and has wanted to live as a woman. Simple.

No, it isn't as simple as wanting to "live as a female".

If it were that simple, he could simply dress in drag - but again, he'd likely have to do that privately due to his fame as an Olympian. He isn't gay either, which many cross-dressers, drag queens & transvestites are.

He's lived his life as a male, but his chemistry tells him he's female. And he's felt and known this most of his life. So up to this point, his life as a man to him has been a lie - all of it - including the 2 marriages and putting up a front as a jock because of societal pressure, opinion and views of what's "normal" or acceptable.

Even in this day and age, and just from some people's posts on this thread, it's clear that being trans-gender is still not understood or accepted by most of society.

As you said, there are reams of books - there is also medical information available online for anyone who doesn't fully understand what a person in that situation deals with or undergoes before coming to a decision one way or the other.

What I abhor, is people who haven't done research on the subject, but can assume what that person is dealing with - or say that he's being "irrational" or disfiguring a perfectly good body - or make cruel jokes about it.

It's appalling the field day that most late-night tv hosts are having joking about him.

He's not the first and he won't be the last. Why? Because it's not some "phase" or mid-life crisis he's going through - it's his biology and it isn't something as simple as a "problem" that can be fixed by a shrink.

[Opti]

No, it isn't as simple as wanting to "live as a female".

If it were that simple, he could simply dress in drag - but again, he'd likely have to do that privately due to his fame as an Olympian. He isn't gay either, which many cross-dressers, drag queens & transvestites are.

He's lived his life as a male, but his chemistry tells him he's female. And he's felt and known this most of his life. So up to this point, his life as a man to him has been a lie - all of it - including the 2 marriages and putting up a front as a jock because of societal pressure, opinion and views of what's "normal" or acceptable

SL, you mis interpreted my post. The word simple was not used to imply it was easy, just to state his motivation was singular. It was meant to help Virgil understand.

(If dressing in drag is living as female to you, I think we both have very different definitions of what living as a woman means.)

[Opti]

If he didn't want to live as a female, he wouldn't be doing any of this including the interview.  

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 28, 2015 23:32:58 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

He's lived his life as a male, but his chemistry tells him he's female.

Since when does somebody's "chemistry" determine if something is rational? Every thought that runs through my head is a product of my brain chemistry.

Anorexics' chemistry tells them they're too fat. Hoarders' chemistry tells them they need to keep that pile of garbage. Surgery addicts' chemistry tells them they need to go under the knife to look more beautiful.

You're setting the bar pretty darn low on "rational" if any compulsion of one's brain chemistry qualifies.

I don't really understand transgender myself, but I do get he's not throwing away his identity.

Of course he is. "Bruce Jenner": gone. Bruce Jenner's healthy, drug-free body: gone. Bruce Jenner the athlete instead of Bruce Jenner the pitiable caricature of mental illness: gone.

[weltschmerz]

Apr 28, 2015 21:43:31 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Hmmm...interesting.  I'd think that if you truly felt that way, you wouldn't be bringing the subject of Him up so much.....more than anybody else almost.   Even when nobody else mentions Him.  If not a belief, maybe a strange obsession....or denial.  Don't know but it's strange.  Seems like you are mad at Him to me.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be giving Him so much press!  I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Clearly, you haven't been paying attention. I get annoyed by his followers, especially those who dictate How Things Should Be.

However, this is a subject for another thread.

In this thread, Virgil has shown an appalling lack of compassion and understanding.

[tallguy]

Apr 27, 2015 20:58:02 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 27, 2015 19:08:41 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

You don't know of him as athlete & the Gold-Medal Decathlon winner in the '76 Olympics? Or his pic on the Wheaties box (where they feature star athletes)?



He also had gigs as one of the Olympic sports commentators in future Olympic games after that win. As well as that, he had product endorsements, etc.

His fame isn't because he married a K - or this recent step in his life - his fame is due to his own achievements and success as a champion athlete in the sporting world .

Ah.

With due respect for your theory, most people can count the number of 1976 Olympic athletes they remember on zero hands. I'm guessing it's probably not the source of his fame.

You don't want to say that around me. 

I still remember Jenner going around the track waving the small flag over his head after the 1500 meter race that clinched the decathlon.  As far as other winners (and no, I don't have to look them up....)

Edwin Moses won the 400 hurdles

The U.S. boxing team won five golds:  Sugar Ray Leonard, Howard Davis, Leo Randolph, and both Michael and Leon Spinks

Alberto Juantorena from Cuba doubled in both the 400 and 800 meters

Nadia Comaneci scored seven perfect 10.0's on the way to the all-around gold and a couple of individual events

Olga Korbut won (I think) three individual golds

John Naber won multiple swimming golds

Frank Shorter (I think) won the marathon 

Klaus DiBiasi of Italy won in diving

I might be able to get some more if I think about it, though I may confuse some 1976 with 1972....

And how do you not at least have some recognition of the 1976 Olympics?  They were in Montreal.  (Or are they never mentioned in Canada because, well, Canada was terrible?)   

That all being said, though, I do not at all consider myself the "average person."     

(Nor have I ever watched or even paid attention to a single moment of any of The Kardashians, excepting of course the father Robert during the OJ trial....)  

[tallguy]

Apr 28, 2015 21:10:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 28, 2015 20:57:51 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Just out of curiousity, where did you get your degree in psychiatry?

In any case, why does this bother you so much? How does it affect you, personally? Why don't you just let him be, instead of ridiculing his name and his decisions?

Must be a Christian trait.

I suppose you're right; there's no profit in ridiculing his name.

I blame you for being a bad influence.

Good choice.  Even if you think poorly of him, what good does it do to broadcast that fact?  He has apparently struggled with this for a long time.  He has opened himself up to an incredible amount of torment and abuse from outside people who don't even know him.  He feels it is the right decision for him.  Wish him well and be done with it. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Apr 29, 2015 3:36:44 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Apr 28, 2015 21:10:07 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I suppose you're right; there's no profit in ridiculing his name.

I blame you for being a bad influence.

Good choice.  Even if you think poorly of him, what good does it do to broadcast that fact?  He has apparently struggled with this for a long time.  He has opened himself up to an incredible amount of torment and abuse from outside people who don't even know him.  He feels it is the right decision for him.  Wish him well and be done with it. 

I can't speak for all people, but humour is just as often a reaction to absurdity as it is wanton malice.

Take the videos of Tami Stainfield in the "Vote Independent" thread. The poor woman is mentally ill, and (take note, swamp) my life has been touched by a friend with paranoid delusions, but I don't begrudge anyone a few rofls at Ms. Stainfield's expense. The absurdity is funny.

The absurdity of a man named "Bruce" having to dream up a woman's name because, of all reasons, he's going to chop and drug himself up to look like a woman, struck me as funny. It used to be the stuff of sitcom hijinks where "Danny" dresses in drag to become "Danny- elle... *ahem* My name is Danielle." in order to sneak into the sorority house to discover the girls' game plan. Of all the problems faced by all the people in all the world, you smilingly shake your head and wonder "How do people get themselves into something like that?"

[weltschmerz]

Apr 29, 2015 6:12:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 29, 2015 3:36:44 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Good choice.  Even if you think poorly of him, what good does it do to broadcast that fact?  He has apparently struggled with this for a long time.  He has opened himself up to an incredible amount of torment and abuse from outside people who don't even know him.  He feels it is the right decision for him.  Wish him well and be done with it. 

I can't speak for all people, but humour is just as often a reaction to absurdity as it is wanton malice.

Take the videos of Tami Stainfield in the "Vote Independent" thread. The poor woman is mentally ill, and (take note, swamp) my life has been touched by a friend with paranoid delusions, but I don't begrudge anyone a few rofls at Ms. Stainfield's expense. The absurdity is funny.

The absurdity of a man named "Bruce" having to dream up a woman's name because, of all reasons, he's going to chop and drug himself up to look like a woman, struck me as funny. It used to be the stuff of sitcom hijinks where "Danny" dresses in drag to become "Danny- elle... *ahem* My name is Danielle." in order to sneak into the sorority house to discover the girls' game plan. Of all the problems faced by all the people in all the world, you smilingly shake your head and wonder "How do people get themselves into something like that?"

Seriously, Virgil? You're comparing a transgender man's torment over the years to a student dressing in drag to gain entrance to a sorority house?

...and you have the audacity to pontificate about his psychological state?

Worry about your own.

The more you post, the more absurd you sound.

[Opti]

Apr 29, 2015 1:13:35 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 28, 2015 23:32:58 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

He's lived his life as a male, but his chemistry tells him he's female.

Since when does somebody's "chemistry" determine if something is rational? Every thought that runs through my head is a product of my brain chemistry.

Anorexics' chemistry tells them they're too fat. Hoarders' chemistry tells them they need to keep that pile of garbage. Surgery addicts' chemistry tells them they need to go under the knife to look more beautiful.

You're setting the bar pretty darn low on "rational" if any compulsion of one's brain chemistry qualifies.

I don't really understand transgender myself, but I do get he's not throwing away his identity.

Of course he is. "Bruce Jenner": gone. Bruce Jenner's healthy, drug-free body: gone. Bruce Jenner the athlete instead of Bruce Jenner the pitiable caricature of mental illness: gone.

I disagree with your assertion. While chemicals are the messengers that carry thoughts they do not create them by themselves. Every thought that runs through your head is created by you, not the chemicals. Otherwise you need to turn in your PB, P&M cards immediately because your brilliance and beliefs in God are simply a matter of luck of getting the right chemicals in your brain.

You've accomplished nothing. Your mental health is an illusion. You just got good chemicals.

[NancysSummerSip]

Apr 29, 2015 11:35:18 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Apr 29, 2015 6:12:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I can't speak for all people, but humour is just as often a reaction to absurdity as it is wanton malice.

Take the videos of Tami Stainfield in the "Vote Independent" thread. The poor woman is mentally ill, and (take note, swamp) my life has been touched by a friend with paranoid delusions, but I don't begrudge anyone a few rofls at Ms. Stainfield's expense. The absurdity is funny.

The absurdity of a man named "Bruce" having to dream up a woman's name because, of all reasons, he's going to chop and drug himself up to look like a woman, struck me as funny. It used to be the stuff of sitcom hijinks where "Danny" dresses in drag to become "Danny- elle... *ahem* My name is Danielle." in order to sneak into the sorority house to discover the girls' game plan. Of all the problems faced by all the people in all the world, you smilingly shake your head and wonder "How do people get themselves into something like that?"

Seriously, Virgil? You're comparing a transgender man's torment over the years to a student dressing in drag to gain entrance to a sorority house?

...and you have the audacity to pontificate about his psychological state?

Worry about your own.

The more you post, the more absurd you sound.

To say nothing of the fact that Virgil seems to have confused the definition of cross dressing with the definition of transgender. I worry that he thinks the two are related. Amazing what happens when reality meets cardboard compassion.

[Opti]

Apr 29, 2015 6:12:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Apr 29, 2015 3:36:44 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Good choice.  Even if you think poorly of him, what good does it do to broadcast that fact?  He has apparently struggled with this for a long time.  He has opened himself up to an incredible amount of torment and abuse from outside people who don't even know him.  He feels it is the right decision for him.  Wish him well and be done with it. 

I can't speak for all people, but humour is just as often a reaction to absurdity as it is wanton malice.

Take the videos of Tami Stainfield in the "Vote Independent" thread. The poor woman is mentally ill, and (take note, swamp) my life has been touched by a friend with paranoid delusions, but I don't begrudge anyone a few rofls at Ms. Stainfield's expense. The absurdity is funny.

The absurdity of a man named "Bruce" having to dream up a woman's name because, of all reasons, he's going to chop and drug himself up to look like a woman, struck me as funny. It used to be the stuff of sitcom hijinks where "Danny" dresses in drag to become "Danny- elle... *ahem* My name is Danielle." in order to sneak into the sorority house to discover the girls' game plan. Of all the problems faced by all the people in all the world, you smilingly shake your head and wonder "How do people get themselves into something like that?"

Virgil, are you intentionally confusing the difference between transgender and dressing up as the opposite sex (for a few hours) for some silly plan?

If it is the chemicals telling you to post this, perhaps you should visit your wonderful Canadian healthcare system and see if they can get those suckers back in balance.

[weltschmerz]

Apr 29, 2015 12:16:15 GMT -5 Opti said:

Apr 29, 2015 6:12:42 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

I can't speak for all people, but humour is just as often a reaction to absurdity as it is wanton malice.

Take the videos of Tami Stainfield in the "Vote Independent" thread. The poor woman is mentally ill, and (take note, swamp) my life has been touched by a friend with paranoid delusions, but I don't begrudge anyone a few rofls at Ms. Stainfield's expense. The absurdity is funny.

The absurdity of a man named "Bruce" having to dream up a woman's name because, of all reasons, he's going to chop and drug himself up to look like a woman, struck me as funny. It used to be the stuff of sitcom hijinks where "Danny" dresses in drag to become "Danny- elle... *ahem* My name is Danielle." in order to sneak into the sorority house to discover the girls' game plan. Of all the problems faced by all the people in all the world, you smilingly shake your head and wonder "How do people get themselves into something like that?"

Virgil, are you intentionally confusing the difference between transgender and dressing up as the opposite sex (for a few hours) for some silly plan?

If it is the chemicals telling you to post this, perhaps you should visit your wonderful Canadian healthcare system and see if they can get those suckers back in balance.

He's comparing a man's pain and struggle to a Benny Hill skit, yet wants us to accept his official diagnosis.

You still didn't tell us where you got your degree in psychiatry, Virgil.