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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 23:44:39 GMT -5
So, I had an interesting conversation with DS tonight. He was playing with his Lego guys and in this game there was a "bad guy" and a "good guy". The good guy was going to kill the bad guy so the bad guy would "go to Hell". I asked him where he heard about that and he said his Dad told him. Swell. He's 4 and talking about burning in Hell. I told him that Hell was make believe and if the "good" guy killed the bad guy, then HE would be a bad guy and maybe we should just put the bad guy in jail? He's convinced no jail can hold this bad guy and Hell is the only answer. Now, I'm agnostic, leaning towards atheist, but not militant, won't tolerate anything Christian around my kids, atheist. I have no issue with him going to mass with his Dad or hearing about the preachings of Jesus...but this? No. Not liking it at all. I'm convinced that ex's parents constant talking of Hell and demons contributed to a few of their kids being a little, shall we say, messed up. So, not sure how to approach this here. I'm thinking I should speak to him about it and tell him I don't want him talking to our son about Hell, but I'm not sure that would work. He believes what he believes and he believes there is a Hell and that he should let his son know about it. I'd probably have more luck with the "this may not be age appropriate" angle and you can bring up Hell when he's older (and hopefully past the easily impressionable age). I could probably even get the priest to back me on that. Anyhow. I'm using the 24 hour cool off and think about this before reacting strategy.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 21, 2015 0:21:29 GMT -5
I would tell him it is a pretend thing, but that might lead to having to explain other pretend things like Santa, Easter Bunny and tooth fairy but if you don't bring characters in he may not ask if they are pretend too.
You could just ridicule people who believe nonsense. I heard a man doing that with his toddlers telling them some people believe we come from monkeys isn't that silly and the kids nodded yes. If they can you can tell him people believe when you die you go to other places, isn't that silly and they will agree.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Apr 21, 2015 1:12:33 GMT -5
My parents were not religious when I was growing up, but as a little kid mom did send us to vacation bible school a couple of summers to get us out of the house. And in 8th grade I got saved, baptized, and started going to church with some friends. That lasted less than a year. Of course I grew up in a fundamentalist, southern baptist town where kids hear this stuff everywhere outside of the home- even at school, and your own extended relatives, strangers, or even the kids friends will be talking about whatever they just learned. There isn't much for kids to do outside of church except things you don't want them doing. Is your town like that? Some churches even address stuff like this with young kids. So your son could hear this at bible study or maybe he paid attention in a sermon, asked ex a question, and that was the only way he could think to explain it. But you also know if ex is doing this to "get at you" or if it will become secretive or worse if you ask him not to get into specific parts of religion yet. For what it's worth I am also agnostic. Maybe you can find a book about how to explain religion to kids without exposing them to the fire and brimstone portions and share that with ex, asking that until he is ____ age that it doesn't get into gory detail. You just have to accept that eventually your son will read or hear about it. And depending on who else he is exposed to it is just as likely to come from a source besides your DH.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 21, 2015 5:58:46 GMT -5
Don't we all at least want to believe their is punishment for the Evil? I mean we have seen incredible acts of evil on this planet which sometimes go unpunished in this life. So, "hell fire" would seem to at least be a just punishment in the after life.
But, if you are agnostic, then why should this bother you? If you truly want him to make up his own mind, then why are you going to squash these notions?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 21, 2015 5:59:54 GMT -5
And, if you are this upset, and going to "talk to him", then you really are deciding for him what he should believe, are you not? Because you are telling him his thinking is wrong.
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MarleyKeezy78
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Post by MarleyKeezy78 on Apr 21, 2015 6:19:00 GMT -5
Meh, let him pretend. You can talk to him if you want but letting him figure things out is fine in my eyes. I was born into a Catholic family, didn't go to church much growing up and now as an adult I have my very own beliefs for things. Spiritual but not religious. If he has questions, he will come to you My six year old always askes what he is going to be in his next life, that's how we roll
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 6:20:14 GMT -5
When I say I'm going to "talk to him". I mean his Dad, not my son.
I was raised in a Christian household and was not preached to about damnation and Hell. Church was about loving others and doing what was right because it was the right thing to do, not because you were going to burn in Hell if you didn't. Even as an agnostic, who is on the fence on the God concept I'm pretty firm on the no Hell and even if there was, I don't think scaring a 4 year old with it is appropriate. I would be just as upset if he told him if got out of his bed at night angry trolls were going to crawl jump out from his closet and eat him.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 21, 2015 6:21:13 GMT -5
You are also assuming this came from his Dad as well. You don't know that. Kids talk. Kids watch TV and read things. So, I don't think this is some far fetched idea that only could have come from him. But, you are upset that your child has a different view than you do. Why? Aren't you squashing his own journey if you run in and correct him?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 21, 2015 6:22:32 GMT -5
I think starting a war with you Ex over this is the wrong approach. And, he is his Dad. You dont' get to control everything Dad tells him nor does he get to do so with you. He may be equally convinced that YOU are harming him with what you are teaching him. Do you really want to start WW3 over it?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 21, 2015 6:22:56 GMT -5
What's the parish like? My parish is all about love, forgiveness, and helping someone else. The only people that talk about hell are folks that at least 60 who went to Catholic grade school and also talk about the nuns hitting their knuckles and what not. My kids, that go to Catholic school, are not exposed to such notions about Hell. For me, it might be worth it to have a sit down with a priest to diffuse the situation a little bit. Or go to mass a few times and point out that while there is talk of wrong-doing, hell is not brought up, rather forgiveness is. Otherwise, you may just want to let it go. I've found my kids do find out when my ideas are full of crap as they age. I taught my oldest that I was 25 for the first five years of his life. When he hit 8, he stopped believing. Or it could be just a phase. Or you could start reading the Inferno as a bedtime story ETA: Is your kid a black/white thinker and a rule follower? If so, then I think you have a harder journey. #1 is like that. Grey is not in his vocab.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 6:42:34 GMT -5
You are also assuming this came from his Dad as well. You don't know that. Kids talk. Kids watch TV and read things. So, I don't think this is some far fetched idea that only could have come from him. But, you are upset that your child has a different view than you do. Why? Aren't you squashing his own journey if you run in and correct him? Because he said it came from his Dad and I'm pretty sure that's the only place he would have heard it. Let me clarify whenever my son talks about God or Jesus and asks about him. I tell him that some people, including his Dad believe "such and such", but it is not my views (actually, I don't even think it's ever come to me mentioning my view). I don't say it's wrong or Dad is messed up in the head. Honestly, there's a lot worse he could do than follow the teachings of Jesus. BUT, when we were together his Dad has told me a lot of things about how he was raised and even he admits it's messed up. He has an unhealthy fear of Hell. I'm convinced now that he goes to Church (basically daily) not out of wanting to do good for others but out of fear for his own soul. He's not the churchgoing guy that puts money in the collection plate or volunteers to help people. I do not want my son to live with that kind of fear. And no I do not believe anyone deserves eternal damnation.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 21, 2015 6:47:36 GMT -5
Explain to your son that some people believe in hell but you do not. He is too young to get into the philosophical discussion as to wether or not there is a God, heaven and hell.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 21, 2015 7:08:53 GMT -5
Explain to your son that some people believe in hell but you do not. He is too young to get into the philosophical discussion as to wether or not there is a God, heaven and hell. No, but he may want to know why MPL doesn't believe in hell. It seems, we were always in the prime "Why" years form 2-5. I've found that my kids also better grasp things when we provide a reason. I'd probably rehearse a pat answer that's benign. And practice delivering it without emotion. I've taken this approach with my own kids on some other matters, and eventually the subject gets dropped.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 21, 2015 7:11:49 GMT -5
You are also assuming this came from his Dad as well. You don't know that. Kids talk. Kids watch TV and read things. So, I don't think this is some far fetched idea that only could have come from him. But, you are upset that your child has a different view than you do. Why? Aren't you squashing his own journey if you run in and correct him? Because he said it came from his Dad and I'm pretty sure that's the only place he would have heard it. Let me clarify whenever my son talks about God or Jesus and asks about him. I tell him that some people, including his Dad believe "such and such", but it is not my views (actually, I don't even think it's ever come to me mentioning my view). I don't say it's wrong or Dad is messed up in the head. Honestly, there's a lot worse he could do than follow the teachings of Jesus. BUT, when we were together his Dad has told me a lot of things about how he was raised and even he admits it's messed up. He has an unhealthy fear of Hell. I'm convinced now that he goes to Church (basically daily) not out of wanting to do good for others but out of fear for his own soul. He's not the churchgoing guy that puts money in the collection plate or volunteers to help people. I do not want my son to live with that kind of fear. And no I do not believe anyone deserves eternal damnation. Maybe he heard it from his Dad or maybe not. But, so what if he did. I don't think playing with legos and saying the bad guy is going to Hell is "living with that kind of fear". I think you are overreacting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 7:32:33 GMT -5
Maybe he heard it from his Dad or maybe not. But, so what if he did. I don't think playing with legos and saying the bad guy is going to Hell is "living with that kind of fear". I think you are overreacting. Overreacting? Outside of posting here, I don't think I've reacted much at all at this point. But, yeah. Sensitive area. I was knocked unconscious by this guy while he held our son and told him I was evil and going to hell. He's been doing very well for quite a while now, but don't think hearing our son start to talk about hell didn't trigger some anxiety in me. I'm constantly looking for signs in our son that he might have the same "issues".
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 21, 2015 7:37:04 GMT -5
Maybe he heard it from his Dad or maybe not. But, so what if he did. I don't think playing with legos and saying the bad guy is going to Hell is "living with that kind of fear". I think you are overreacting. Overreacting? Outside of posting here, I don't think I've reacted much at all at this point. But, yeah. Sensitive area. I was knocked unconscious by this guy while he held our son and told him I was evil and going to hell. He's been doing very well for quite a while now, but don't think hearing our son start to talk about hell didn't trigger some anxiety in me. I'm constantly looking for signs in our son that he might have the same "issues". Of course that is a sensitive area to you. That is understandable. I am saying just dont' project that necessarily into this situation.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 21, 2015 8:06:12 GMT -5
I dunno, I think I'd be concerned about my ex talking to our kid about hell when he's already told the kid his mom is evil going to hell.
The kid was younger and might not remember but if he did the dad saying how bad hell is after saying his mom is going there is not a good thing.
No idea what to do though. I like what sroo said though.
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garion2003
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Post by garion2003 on Apr 21, 2015 8:11:22 GMT -5
You are also assuming this came from his Dad as well. You don't know that. Kids talk. Kids watch TV and read things. So, I don't think this is some far fetched idea that only could have come from him. But, you are upset that your child has a different view than you do. Why? Aren't you squashing his own journey if you run in and correct him? Because he said it came from his Dad and I'm pretty sure that's the only place he would have heard it. Let me clarify whenever my son talks about God or Jesus and asks about him. I tell him that some people, including his Dad believe "such and such", but it is not my views (actually, I don't even think it's ever come to me mentioning my view). I don't say it's wrong or Dad is messed up in the head. Honestly, there's a lot worse he could do than follow the teachings of Jesus. BUT, when we were together his Dad has told me a lot of things about how he was raised and even he admits it's messed up. He has an unhealthy fear of Hell. I'm convinced now that he goes to Church (basically daily) not out of wanting to do good for others but out of fear for his own soul. He's not the churchgoing guy that puts money in the collection plate or volunteers to help people. I do not want my son to live with that kind of fear. And no I do not believe anyone deserves eternal damnation. Is there Unitarian Universalist church nearby?
Seriously though I would agree that DS is too young to understand complex abstract theological constructs.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 21, 2015 8:36:36 GMT -5
Instead of MPL giving her thoughts I would suggest for her to ask him questions. What is Hell like? Who lives there? Why do they live there? Do you know anyone who you think should live there? At the age of her boyfriend, these are good questions to ask to gauge where the boy is on the subject. For all we know Hell is a place for baddie Lego baddies to go. Their concept of the world is much different than ours. I always found kids that age to be fascinating with their thoughts on the world. If the conversation indicates that her son is truly fearful of Hell then it's time for the discussion about different beliefs and stories that help explain things. Although at this point I wouldn't bring up the subject again unless he does. This is an awesome suggestion. MPL ttalking could lead to a bunch of why questions.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Apr 21, 2015 8:40:25 GMT -5
DH's step-mom died this last week and I tried to explain to DS1, who is 5. To be able to understand the difficulty I encountered with this, I should give you some background about me. I went to a Catholic School from grades 1-6. I think it was in 6th grade that I decided that I didn't believe in hell, and my belief in heaven is not the mainstream belief most people have. (Basically, I believe in reincarnation, perhaps a different sort of heaven after many lifetimes.) Anywho, at 5, I don't think DS is able to understand this nuanced view that I have. Plus, all the family has very traditional Christian beliefs (but not focused at all on the fire and brimstone view). So, I told him GM's spirit went to heaven. I think that I also would be upset if someone tried to teach him about hell. I think I got a great religious background in those 6 years, and hell never discussed much at all. Oddly enough, that particular GM had some bad post-op "trips" from the meds/anesthesia, and she was freaked out by seeing "demons". I had something similar happen to me after one of my C-sections--it was like a horror movie, and my reaction was more along the lines of, "hmmm, that's weird ". So, from her belief in the devil, GM was very disturbed, and my lack of belief in that gave it no power over me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 8:47:07 GMT -5
I'm kind of leaning towards letting it go now...unless he brings it up again, then I'll go with @sroo4 suggestion of asking questions. The whole "I'm going to kill this bad guy so he goes to hell" didn't sit well with me, and triggered some memories of theological arguments I'd had with his Dad.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 21, 2015 8:59:43 GMT -5
This is a horrible area for any divorced parent.
Technically, your ex could become a snake handler tomorrow and teach your kid that is the way, the truth, and the light and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it except fume.
Or you could be the voice of sanity and explain everyone has different beliefs, some are right and some are wrong and when he is grown your son can decide which is which.
I'm Catholic. A good friend who got divorced isn't, but their ex is trying to teach the kids all kinds of outdated dogma since they coverted (the ex) before they married their new spouse. DH and I are used as the sounding board when the kids or our friend have questions or concerns.
Sorry (again) that you're going through this.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 21, 2015 9:14:09 GMT -5
What is wrong with believing in Hell btw?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 21, 2015 9:19:47 GMT -5
Religion is a very tough thing to deal with when you aren't on the same page when married so I can't imagine dealing with it when you are divorced.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 9:20:50 GMT -5
I do have the fact that our family is pretty laid back, fun and reasonable on my side. There are all kinds of religions represented and nobody is what I would call an extremist, so, he is getting exposed to way more than DH did as a child. They were very poor and never socialized outside of their immediate family. No camps, or vacations and often weeks on end would go by in the summer when they never left the farm except for church. DH's father was very intolerant of others who did not conform to his belief system. He even refused to attend any of the baptisms of 5 of his 8 grandchildren because his one son converted to Methodist instead of Catholic. From what DH tells me he had the kids baptized again CORRECTLY without the parents knowing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 9:23:45 GMT -5
What is wrong with believing in Hell btw? @anne81 got it right. You combine that with mental illness and a propensity to addiction and it can be pretty scary. (A person believing in Hell, not Hell itself...I don't believe in Hell. )
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Apr 21, 2015 9:33:33 GMT -5
Sorry, but I think you are almost as obsessive, just in the opposite extreme.
Seems like you are looking for issues, based on your own personal fears. Explain how you feel about hell, and wish he wouldn't wish to send anyone there, if it's real or not, but don't MAKE it a bigger issue than it needs to be.
You could be just as harming as you fear your ex will be.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Apr 21, 2015 9:39:11 GMT -5
What is wrong with believing in Hell btw? It just simply doesn't make sense to me. I'll just say that, it's sort of the same as being motivated by fear, and also that fear can be used to manipulate people. IMO, it is not the healthiest way to live, and it's wrong to manipulate people that way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 9:42:50 GMT -5
Sorry, but I think you are almost as obsessive, just in the opposite extreme. Seems like you are looking for issues, based on your own personal fears. Explain how you feel about hell, and wish he wouldn't wish to send anyone there, if it's real or not, but don't MAKE it a bigger issue than it needs to be. You could be just as harming as you fear your ex will be. I haven't been saying anything to DS. I'm asking what, if anything, I should. As far as my own "personal fears". I'm not the only one that believes that DS's behaviors should be monitored closely now that he has unsupervised visitation with his father. It's my job to protect him and I'm sad to say that I failed in the first couple years. He saw some really scary shit, like his Dad attacking his uncle, ripping all his clothes off and punching cement walls and trees until his hands were bloody saying there were demons in him. I don't want him freaking about demons and hell like his Dad does.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 21, 2015 9:46:26 GMT -5
What is wrong with believing in Hell btw? Why would you want to believe in hell?
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