Oh, Hell....

[Deleted]

Another torment to ex.  He wants to go to Heaven, but I won't be there.  His brother won't be there.  At least two of his sisters won't be there....

He wants to go to Heaven to be reunited with his loved ones, but all his loved ones are going to Hell.  Except his Mom of course.  She's perfect. 

[Angel!]

Apr 21, 2015 9:33:33 GMT -5 luckyme said:

Sorry, but I think you are almost as obsessive, just in the opposite extreme.

Seems like you are looking for issues, based on your own personal fears.  Explain how you feel about hell, and wish he wouldn't wish to send anyone there, if it's real or not, but don't MAKE it a bigger issue than it needs to be.

You could be just as harming as you fear your ex will be.

I don't think she is obsessive at all. I think it is perfectly normal to want to protect our kids from learning about stuff that we don't want them to believe or learn about.

I would have a huge problem if someone started talking to my kids about burning in hell. DD has enough fears without adding to them with stuff like this. 

[Angel!]

Apr 21, 2015 9:46:26 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Apr 21, 2015 9:14:09 GMT -5 Shooby said:

What is wrong with believing in Hell btw?

Why would you want to believe in hell?

  I've never understood the idea of eternal damnation for the things one does in a single lifetime.  I think maybe it's nice to believe that everyone will get punished in the end, but it seems such a contradiction to the loving, forgiving god that is talked about in the NT.

[midjd]

I like how a couple of pretty moderate, even-tempered message board posts about how to handle a question from her son have turned into MPL's "obsession" with the idea of hell or with her ex's behavior. JFC.

When it comes to religion, I'm as live-and-let-live as they come (as long as no one tries too hard to convert me), but if someone was filling DD's head with stories about sending people to hell, or baptizing her "correctly" behind my back, I'd hit the roof.  

[Deleted]

I do get where I seem a little paranoid and obsessive.  I might be.  I don't have the greatest track record for recognizing when things are "off" early on and might be a bit hyper vigilant now.

[HoneyBBQ]

Apr 21, 2015 5:59:54 GMT -5 Shooby said:

And, if you are this upset, and going to "talk to him", then you really are deciding for him what he should believe, are you not? Because you are telling him his thinking is wrong.

Telling him the truth from fiction is never "wrong".

[Tiny]

Apr 21, 2015 10:04:07 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Another torment to ex.  He wants to go to Heaven, but I won't be there.  His brother won't be there.  At least two of his sisters won't be there....

He wants to go to Heaven to be reunited with his loved ones, but all his loved ones are going to Hell.  Except his Mom of course.  She's perfect. 

Oddly enough, a dear friend who's a Believer had a 'life crisis' around this very thought in her late 20's  The thought that  she'd be separated from the people she loved here on earth in her Catholic afterlife thru her into a sorrowful/doubtful funk.    She eventually fessed up to me (her Atheist friend) when I pressed her for why she was so upset (and the upset had gone on for WEEKS) basically she was terrified of Hell and therefore of death.    She wasn't afraid that she would go to hell - she was terrified for her loved ones.     I find it kind of wry that it's usually the kind, compassionate people (my friend) who truly worry about their loved ones and not themselves.

I let her talk it all out - but she eventually came around to some circular reasoning that didn't provide an answer at all.     My only 'advice' for her was to remember that God loves EVERYONE (she had the kinder gentler Catholic upbringing  versus the God loves everyone BUT with strings attached that I got) surely God (he's a GOD!!!) could find it in His heart to love and protect her relatives no matter how 'awful' they were in life.  After all their actions take place in what amounts to less time than it takes for God to Blink His Eye.  Why would a loving caring God let them suffer in Hell for all eternity?   She didn't really like that so much so I suggested she should maybe talk to her parish priest (who she saw and talked to every week).   She's 50 now and still fears death and hell - but she  has hope that she'll see all her loved ones in heaven - even me - because God loves even me and surely won't send me to hell for my 'short life' of disbelief.    (I don't believe in Heaven or Hell  so we laugh about that...)

Meant to add - my friend bumped into the classic Problem of Evil all on her own.   I was actually kind of proud of her for questioning her belief even though it was quite the 'trial' for her.   I'm also glad she came to terms with it while still maintaining her belief in God.  

[HoneyBBQ]

Apr 21, 2015 7:11:49 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Maybe he heard it from his Dad or maybe not.  But, so what if he did.  I don't think playing with legos and saying the bad guy is going to Hell is "living with that kind of fear".  I think you are overreacting.

You've posted more times in this thread than the OP. Maybe you want to double check who is over reacting?

Obviously this is a very important subject to you. But for atheists and agnostics it's very difficult to tread the line of tolerance with our own children. I think MPL is doing a great job. And I agree with others: The only purpose of a 'hell' is to scare, control, and strike fear into hearts of people. I don't need that for my child and neither does she.

[Tiny]

minnesotapaintlady What if you ventured out to the Google and searched for "How to tell Children about Hell" You aren't the only parent who has had to deal with this. I'd go into reading the links that look OK with a grain of salt and the idea that I was 'collect information' versus looking 'for what to do' to make it easier to sort thru it all. There's probably a lot of ambiguous religious 'speak' in these links (I'm NOT being snarky) - but you'll find themes and ideas that may help you.

I'm maybe even see if I could find an Atheist or Secular Humanist or Unitarian Universalist site (or maybe even a Jewish or Buddhist site) that discusses this issue. Not that you are any of those - but their responses to the Heaven/Hell issue and even Good/Evil issue to this will usually strip out the ambiguous religious phrasing which might make it more useful.

Meant to Add: I'm not sure how you can protect your son from the idea/concept of hell -  the whole story of Jesus is based on it. God sent Jesus to Redeem mankind (why would he do that to give mankind a path that leads away from hell).   Jesus died to save us (from what did he save us? Hell).     I do agree that 4/5/6 yos don't really need to hear about the horrors of Hell but it's there at the bottom of all the Jesus stories (why is He here to teach us stuff?). but I don't think you can continue on with religious studies without hearing about Hell OR there being hints about it.   It's part of the foundation of Christianity.  

He may not be hearing about Hell directly... he may be asked to make a choice:   Be a good boy, so you can be with Jesus!  You want to be with Jesus, right?  If you don't do X (say you're sorry to that little girl you took the toy from, don't go to Church, don't do whatever) you won't get to be with Jesus!      All of which brings up the if you aren't with Jesus - where are you? with those bad people over there.    Couple that with the idea that Jesus has a parent relationship with the people he loves - and who wants to not be with someone they love?     I have heard well meaning adults say truly horrible things to little kids over the years.   

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2015 10:43:09 GMT -5 Tiny said:

minnesotapaintlady What if you ventured out to the Google and searched for "How to tell Children about Hell" You aren't the only parent who has had to deal with this. I'd go into reading the links that look OK with a grain of salt and the idea that I was 'collect information' versus looking 'for what to do' to make it easier to sort thru it all. There's probably a lot of ambiguous religious 'speak' in these links (I'm NOT being snarky) - but you'll find themes and ideas that may help you.

I'm maybe even see if I could find an Atheist or Secular Humanist or Unitarian Universalist site (or maybe even a Jewish or Buddhist site) that discusses this issue. Not that you are any of those - but their responses to the Heaven/Hell issue and even Good/Evil issue to this will usually strip out the ambiguous religious phrasing which might make it more useful.

I have had some books in my Amazon saved items for a long time in prep for what I knew would be coming eventually so may have to move them to the cart.  I do have one book at home that is at his level that talks about all the different religions and what they believe, but even it doesn't mention Hell. 

[muttleynfelix]

Apr 21, 2015 9:33:33 GMT -5 luckyme said:

Sorry, but I think you are almost as obsessive, just in the opposite extreme.

Seems like you are looking for issues, based on your own personal fears.  Explain how you feel about hell, and wish he wouldn't wish to send anyone there, if it's real or not, but don't MAKE it a bigger issue than it needs to be.

You could be just as harming as you fear your ex will be.

Oh please. I am Christian, raising my kids Christian (have one that is the same age as MPL'S) and I would have a huge problem with someone talking to my kids about hell. It is not an age appropriate conversation. I would be upset if DS came home talking about hell.

[Tiny]

minnesotapaintlady:

I have to ask Did you ask your son if the Lego Villian who was set to hell - because it was a place he couldn't escape from - could be LET OUT OF HELL? We adults know hell's a place you don't ever leave and can't be let out of. Your son might not have that bit in his head yet.

    

[weltschmerz]

Apr 21, 2015 9:14:09 GMT -5 Shooby said:

What is wrong with believing in Hell btw?

What's wrong with it?

Might as well tell a child that he shouldn't cross bridges because trolls live under there.

That he shouldn't go into lakes because monsters live in the water. That if he steps on a crack, his mother's spine will snap in two.

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2015 11:06:59 GMT -5 Tiny said:

minnesotapaintlady:

I have to ask Did you ask your son if the Lego Villian who was set to hell - because it was a place he couldn't escape from - could be LET OUT OF HELL? We adults know hell's a place you don't ever leave and can't be let out of. Your son might not have that bit in his head yet.

    

His reasoning was this guy was so bad he could escape from jail.  Hell he couldn't get out of and would be there forever.  So he's been told about that.

[Lizard Queen]

Oh hell, just tell the kid it's a made-up place so people would do what they're told.
 Time-out is real, though!

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2015 10:54:12 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

Apr 21, 2015 9:33:33 GMT -5 luckyme said:

Sorry, but I think you are almost as obsessive, just in the opposite extreme.

Seems like you are looking for issues, based on your own personal fears.  Explain how you feel about hell, and wish he wouldn't wish to send anyone there, if it's real or not, but don't MAKE it a bigger issue than it needs to be.

You could be just as harming as you fear your ex will be.

Oh please. I am Christian, raising my kids Christian (have one that is the same age as MPL'S) and I would have a huge problem with someone talking to my kids about hell. It is not an age appropriate conversation. I would be upset if DS came home talking about hell.

Yes, it's the age part that bothered me more than anything.  You can sit and talk Hell with my almost 13 year old all you want.

[muttleynfelix]

Exactly. I have sat in on 3 different Sunday School classes with DS in the last month. Not one mentioned Hell. Even on Palm Sunday (the place we went to on Easter didn't have SS). Of course the denominations we go to aren't big on hell and damnation.

[Shooby]

Apr 21, 2015 10:38:48 GMT -5 HoneyBBQ said:

Apr 21, 2015 7:11:49 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Maybe he heard it from his Dad or maybe not.  But, so what if he did.  I don't think playing with legos and saying the bad guy is going to Hell is "living with that kind of fear".  I think you are overreacting.

You've posted more times in this thread than the OP. Maybe you want to double check who is over reacting?

Obviously this is a very important subject to you. But for atheists and agnostics it's very difficult to tread the line of tolerance with our own children. I think MPL is doing a great job. And I agree with others: The only purpose of a 'hell' is to scare, control, and strike fear into hearts of people. I don't need that for my child and neither does she.

Yer just jealous of my prolific posting abilities.

[Sam_2.0]

Apr 21, 2015 8:47:07 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I'm kind of leaning towards letting it go now...unless he brings it up again, then I'll go with @sroo4 suggestion of asking questions. 

The whole "I'm going to kill this bad guy so he goes to hell" didn't sit well with me, and triggered some memories of theological arguments I'd had with his Dad.

I would be more concerned about the violence and wanting to kill the bad guy. DD is around the same age and obsessed with killing things and talking about bad guys. She picked up a toy the other day and told the baby sitter it was a gun and A was going to shoot the baby sitter so she would die. We had a long discussion about that not being appropriate for many reasons. Whenever she sees a bug she wants us to kill it - we are working hard on drilling into her that we don't just kill things for no reason, but we try to catch the bug if possible and relocate it outside where bugs live.

I guess I am saying, hell is part of my religious beliefs and still even this would have bothered me.

[Shooby]

Oh please. Boys are gonna pretend to kill bad guys.

[weltschmerz]

Apr 21, 2015 11:55:39 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Apr 21, 2015 8:47:07 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I'm kind of leaning towards letting it go now...unless he brings it up again, then I'll go with @sroo4 suggestion of asking questions. 

The whole "I'm going to kill this bad guy so he goes to hell" didn't sit well with me, and triggered some memories of theological arguments I'd had with his Dad.

I would be more concerned about the violence and wanting to kill the bad guy. DD is around the same age and obsessed with killing things and talking about bad guys. She picked up a toy the other day and told the baby sitter it was a gun and A was going to shoot the baby sitter so she would die. We had a long discussion about that not being appropriate for many reasons. Whenever she sees a bug she wants us to kill it - we are working hard on drilling into her that we don't just kill things for no reason, but we try to catch the bug if possible and relocate it outside where bugs live.

I guess I am saying, hell is part of my religious beliefs and still even this would have bothered me.

When my son was small, I caught him stomping on ant hills and used it to teach him a lesson in empathy. I asked him how he'd feel if a giant foot came out of the sky, smashed his house, broke his toys and killed his family. He was absolutely horrified.

From then on, if I found an ant in the house, I had to gently put it outside, making sure I didn't break any of its little legs.

He's a very empathic young man now.

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2015 12:12:58 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Apr 21, 2015 11:55:39 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

I would be more concerned about the violence and wanting to kill the bad guy. DD is around the same age and obsessed with killing things and talking about bad guys. She picked up a toy the other day and told the baby sitter it was a gun and A was going to shoot the baby sitter so she would die. We had a long discussion about that not being appropriate for many reasons. Whenever she sees a bug she wants us to kill it - we are working hard on drilling into her that we don't just kill things for no reason, but we try to catch the bug if possible and relocate it outside where bugs live.

I guess I am saying, hell is part of my religious beliefs and still even this would have bothered me.

When my son was small, I caught him stomping on ant hills and used it to teach him a lesson in empathy. I asked him how he'd feel if a giant foot came out of the sky, smashed his house, broke his toys and killed his family. He was absolutely horrified.

From then on, if I found an ant in the house, I had to gently put it outside, making sure I didn't break any of its little legs.

He's a very empathic young man now.

<MPL hangs head in shame with how she handled the worms on the driveway scenario yesterday>

In my defense there was no way I could leave the garage without smushing a bunch of them.

[NancysSummerSip]

Apr 21, 2015 7:32:33 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 21, 2015 7:11:49 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Maybe he heard it from his Dad or maybe not.  But, so what if he did.  I don't think playing with legos and saying the bad guy is going to Hell is "living with that kind of fear".  I think you are overreacting.

Overreacting?  Outside of posting here, I don't think I've reacted much at all at this point. 

But, yeah.  Sensitive area.  I was knocked unconscious by this guy while he held our son and told him I was evil and going to hell.  He's been doing very well for quite a while now, but don't think hearing our son start to talk about hell didn't trigger some anxiety in me.  I'm constantly looking for signs in our son that he might have the same "issues".  

I don't think MPL is overreacting at all. I think she needs to be watchful on this issue. This is exactly the age when kids begin to imitate the adults around them, for better or for worse. And having worked around plenty of jail inmates, I can tell you that counter-social behavior not only begins early, it's learned. You tend to see two and three generations of families in trouble with the law and in the corrections system. Issues can begin small, and in ways that may seem kind of cute and harmless at the time, but when you look back later, you wonder how and why you miss the cues.

Talk to him, by all means. Don't betray any anxiety, just keep it at kid-level conversation. You're the better person and parent here. [img]http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png[/img]

[MJ2.0]

Apr 21, 2015 11:59:01 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Oh please. Boys are gonna pretend to kill bad guys.

Did you not read where Sam_2.0 's DD is doing the same? And FWIW my DS isn't doing that. He is obsessed with making things crash though...

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2015 12:19:52 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Apr 21, 2015 11:59:01 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Oh please. Boys are gonna pretend to kill bad guys.

Did you not read where Sam_2.0 's DD is doing the same? And FWIW my DS isn't doing that. He is obsessed with making things crash though...

Yeah.  My son too.  Crashing and killing things! 

Older son just liked to read and look at stuff through his telescope. 

[Deleted]

I've pretty much talked myself away from the ledge and have calmed down now.  It was the shock factor of it all.  It would have been similar if he would have said his Legos were having sex.  It's just not something I expected to hear from my sweet, innocent 4 year old nor is it something I feel he should be hearing about yet.

[Angel!]

Apr 21, 2015 12:19:52 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Apr 21, 2015 11:59:01 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Oh please. Boys are gonna pretend to kill bad guys.

Did you not read where Sam_2.0 's DD is doing the same? And FWIW my DS isn't doing that. He is obsessed with making things crash though...

My DS never pretended to kill bad guys either.  I think he is going to be more of a science nerd though.  We went to the mythbusters show & since then he has been obsessed with running experiments.  Although his last experiment was trying to start toilet paper on fire   so he at least has some destructive tendencies.  I thanked him for at least thinking it through & doing it outside.  And FWIW, his experiment failed.   You cannot use the friction from a remote control motorcycle to start toilet paper on fire.

[NancysSummerSip]

Apr 21, 2015 12:32:52 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I've pretty much talked myself away from the ledge and have calmed down now.  It was the shock factor of it all.  It would have been similar if he would have said his Legos were having sex.  It's just not something I expected to hear from my sweet, innocent 4 year old nor is it something I feel he should be hearing about yet.

Normally, I'd say the same thing about a four-year-old. What you have been through as a victim of domestic abuse does change things, however. Your outlook is certainly not the same as the average mother's would be. And that's not a bad thing. Domestic abuser traits do run in families. And kids do learn early from the adults closest to them and most loved and respected by them, whether or not those adults should be their role models. Your four-year-old does not grasp fully what dad did to mom and to himself that has put him where he is today. He only knows who dad is.

I'd continue to suggest you talk to him as a four-year-old, not necessarily negating every story his dad says, but rather presenting stronger and more persuasive backing for yours. I realize the whole bad-guys-crash-and-kill thing is a phase most boys (and some girls) go through. What's important is that it does not go to the next level of escalation (harming other kids/small animals). As the primary parent, you have the upper hand over the sperm donor dude.

[Angel!]

Apr 21, 2015 12:32:52 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I've pretty much talked myself away from the ledge and have calmed down now.  It was the shock factor of it all.  It would have been similar if he would have said his Legos were having sex.  It's just not something I expected to hear from my sweet, innocent 4 year old nor is it something I feel he should be hearing about yet.

It sucks when your kids are out in the world & you can't protect them from stuff like that. It sucks more that it is coming from your ex because he will likely continue to be a constant in your son's life. 

[Shooby]

Apr 21, 2015 12:45:22 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Apr 21, 2015 12:32:52 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I've pretty much talked myself away from the ledge and have calmed down now.  It was the shock factor of it all.  It would have been similar if he would have said his Legos were having sex.  It's just not something I expected to hear from my sweet, innocent 4 year old nor is it something I feel he should be hearing about yet.

It sucks when your kids are out in the world & you can't protect them from stuff like that. It sucks more that it is coming from your ex because he will likely continue to be a constant in your son's life. 

Kids learn and grow. That's not such a terrible thing.