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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 12:11:57 GMT -5
Not every ill, but there is plenty of blaming that is justified. I'll save that history lesson for the proper thread venue. Your opening statement on this quoted post brings to mind an ABC report of Eric Holder accusing the police force of Ferguson arresting more than the national average of blacks. While hilariously showing a video of a store being looted in Ferguson by about 15 blacks. What are they supposed to do, just arrest the national average of participants? Spare me your history lessons. Possibly you need a lesson on statistics, though, if you think a video of 15 black men looting disproves the statement that Ferguson police officers arrest a higher than normal ratio of blacks. Try this statistic - of all traffic stops in Ferguson, about 80% stopped were black people. However, of those 20 percent whites who were stopped, a bigger percentage were actually arrested. Which means the Ferguson police are far more likely to pull over a black driver for no reason, and end up letting him go with no charges, than white drivers. For the white drivers, they are apparently mostly pulling over those who actually behave in a suspect manner, hence the larger number of white drivers actually charged with criminal activity after a traffic stop. Does that appear to be policing targetting at a specific race to you? Driving While Black? Spare me your statistics lessons. 1) First you will have to tell me where I was just talking about a traffic stop pull over versus arrests. 2) Then you should show the percentage of whites versus blacks living in Ferguson. 3) Then you can move on to the unfairness of arrest statistics. (Hint, 80% arrests of blacks in a 80% black community shows the national average approach by Holder is mostly nonsense. This is one example of "special" considerations being perpetrated onto a formerly "just protected" minority. Our POTUS and his appointed minions are racist. How about an answer to reply #90 ?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Apr 20, 2015 13:46:36 GMT -5
Spare me your history lessons. Possibly you need a lesson on statistics, though, if you think a video of 15 black men looting disproves the statement that Ferguson police officers arrest a higher than normal ratio of blacks. Try this statistic - of all traffic stops in Ferguson, about 80% stopped were black people. However, of those 20 percent whites who were stopped, a bigger percentage were actually arrested. Which means the Ferguson police are far more likely to pull over a black driver for no reason, and end up letting him go with no charges, than white drivers. For the white drivers, they are apparently mostly pulling over those who actually behave in a suspect manner, hence the larger number of white drivers actually charged with criminal activity after a traffic stop. Does that appear to be policing targetting at a specific race to you? Driving While Black? Spare me your statistics lessons. 1) First you will have to tell me where I was just talking about a traffic stop pull over versus arrests. 2) Then you should show the percentage of whites versus blacks living in Ferguson. 3) Then you can move on to the unfairness of arrest statistics. (Hint, 80% arrests of blacks in a 80% black community shows the national average approach by Holder is mostly nonsense. This is one example of "special" considerations being perpetrated onto a formerly "just protected" minority. Our POTUS and his appointed minions are racist. How about an answer to reply #90 ? Here are some statistics for you: Statewide, black drivers “were 66 percent more likely than white drivers to be stopped” last year, Koster said in a statement in May.
While black residents accounted for 67 percent of Ferguson’s population, black drivers accounted for more than 86 percent of the traffic stops made last year by the Ferguson Police Department, according to a report produced by the office of Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/12/the-breaking-point-for-ferguson/
67 percent of the population, 86 percent of the traffic stops. But don't let math and science sway your opionion. Keep clinging to it.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Apr 20, 2015 13:54:27 GMT -5
I am trying to think of what kind of scenario would pose risk for a police officer when an unarmed man runs away from him. He shot the guy in the back. The unarmed guy. In the back. Did the think the guy would run around the corner to where he kept his machine gun stashed, then run back and kill him? That's the whole point. We don't know. Anything could of happened to precipitate the shooting. He could of called out "my well armed buddies are just around the corner". Any hypothetical stories at this point, are as always, make believe. Yes but fortunately, in this instance, we have video camera of the whole thing except a few seconds. What are the odds that he claimed he would get his bazooka or his 40 heavily armed friends from just around the corner in those few seconds? Occam's razor - no, we didn't see or hear what happened in those few seconds, but reasonable people can surmise that it was not something so realistically threatening the cop had a legal right to defend himself from a fleeing criminal. Frankly I'm kind of shocked you would imply there was any realistically threatening thing that might have happened in just that short time that would lead the cop to fear for his life. You have video tape of almost the entire encounter, you have solid proof the guy was shot while running away, and yet still you grasp at straws that this somehow, magically, this guy running away was actually putting the cop in fear for his life?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 20, 2015 14:01:02 GMT -5
Spare me your statistics lessons. 1) First you will have to tell me where I was just talking about a traffic stop pull over versus arrests. 2) Then you should show the percentage of whites versus blacks living in Ferguson. 3) Then you can move on to the unfairness of arrest statistics. (Hint, 80% arrests of blacks in a 80% black community shows the national average approach by Holder is mostly nonsense. This is one example of "special" considerations being perpetrated onto a formerly "just protected" minority. Our POTUS and his appointed minions are racist. How about an answer to reply #90 ? Here are some statistics for you: Statewide, black drivers “were 66 percent more likely than white drivers to be stopped” last year, Koster said in a statement in May.
While black residents accounted for 67 percent of Ferguson’s population, black drivers accounted for more than 86 percent of the traffic stops made last year by the Ferguson Police Department, according to a report produced by the office of Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/12/the-breaking-point-for-ferguson/
67 percent of the population, 86 percent of the traffic stops. But don't let math and science sway your opionion. Keep clinging to it. Just because Ferguson's Black residents accounted for 67% of the population doesn't equate to 67% of the drivers being Black. I'm not sure how much clearer this could be. Anybody with half a brain could see those two percentage figures could be very different - either way actually. The population percentage is only one small piece of the puzzle here. But....one that can sure get those "cops target Blacks" believers in an uproar. It could very well be that the 33% of the Caucasian population does 80% of the driving or the 67% of the Black population does 80% of the driving. One can't rely on population statistics as the ONLY statistic.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 14:08:11 GMT -5
... Anybody with half a brain could ... Do you feel that it strengthens your argument to put others down?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 20, 2015 14:11:57 GMT -5
Normally, billis, I'm way past responding to your over-sensitivity to posts on a message board regarding "everyone" and "most" and stuff like that. However, I will not be accused of putting others down when there was no intent there. I was speaking of the public in general who sees a stat like that and overreacts. If you do not like the way I word things, please feel free to igore them. I won't spend anymore of my time responding to your nit-picking of words.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 14:50:18 GMT -5
It is interesting that the issue of "intent" comes up on here. Sure, blacks get pulled over more, arrested more, shot more but heck, it isn't like anyone actually has the "intent" of pulling them over, arresting, or shooting them more. It is just that people are overly sensitive.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 20, 2015 14:53:34 GMT -5
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Apr 20, 2015 16:09:21 GMT -5
Then we get to the chicken or the egg argument. About 40% of the jail population is black, but only 12-13% of the American population is black. Does this mean more blacks are criminals, or does it mean more blacks get stopped, frisked, detained and ultimately arrested, often for nonviolent drug crimes, than whites? The leading cause of incarceration of an African American male is a non-violent drug offense.
Between 1985 and 1995 the American prison population of drug offenders increased from 38,900 to 224,900 with African American males at the top.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males#The_leading_causes_of_incarceration_for_African_American_malesOr stated another way, how many whites are walking around free with some pot in their pockets or in the glove compartment of their cars because they've never gotten pulled over and searched or stopped and frisked? I'm not afraid to admit that as a college student I was in a car on more than one occasion with a guy who had some pot. Never once got stopped by a cop. If I had, no doubt my life might have taken a different turn.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 16:20:53 GMT -5
Drug Sentencing Disparities
About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense. African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project) www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 18:23:16 GMT -5
Then we get to the chicken or the egg argument. About 40% of the jail population is black, but only 12-13% of the American population is black. Does this mean more blacks are criminals, or does it mean more blacks get stopped, frisked, detained and ultimately arrested, often for nonviolent drug crimes, than whites? The leading cause of incarceration of an African American male is a non-violent drug offense.
Between 1985 and 1995 the American prison population of drug offenders increased from 38,900 to 224,900 with African American males at the top.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males#The_leading_causes_of_incarceration_for_African_American_malesOr stated another way, how many whites are walking around free with some pot in their pockets or in the glove compartment of their cars because they've never gotten pulled over and searched or stopped and frisked? I'm not afraid to admit that as a college student I was in a car on more than one occasion with a guy who had some pot. Never once got stopped by a cop. If I had, no doubt my life might have taken a different turn. Here we go with the bleeding heart club about non violent drug crimes and going to jail. If you do not want to do the time, do not do the crime. The fact that many blacks cannot afford GOOD ATTORNEYS has more to do with them doing the time than anything else. Rule number one in the white community is never settle for a public defendant attorney.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 18:29:52 GMT -5
And now we have the Baltimore police dragging a black man to a van, after his arrest and winds up with a broken vertabrae, and dies.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 20, 2015 18:30:08 GMT -5
Then we get to the chicken or the egg argument. About 40% of the jail population is black, but only 12-13% of the American population is black. Does this mean more blacks are criminals, or does it mean more blacks get stopped, frisked, detained and ultimately arrested, often for nonviolent drug crimes, than whites? The leading cause of incarceration of an African American male is a non-violent drug offense.
Between 1985 and 1995 the American prison population of drug offenders increased from 38,900 to 224,900 with African American males at the top.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males#The_leading_causes_of_incarceration_for_African_American_malesOr stated another way, how many whites are walking around free with some pot in their pockets or in the glove compartment of their cars because they've never gotten pulled over and searched or stopped and frisked? I'm not afraid to admit that as a college student I was in a car on more than one occasion with a guy who had some pot. Never once got stopped by a cop. If I had, no doubt my life might have taken a different turn. Here we go with the bleeding heart club about non violent drug crimes and going to jail. If you do not want to do the time, do not do the crime. The fact that many blacks cannot afford GOOD ATTORNEYS has more to do with them doing the time than anything else. Rule number one in the white community is never settle for a public defendant attorney. Because we all know there are no low income white people.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 18:38:26 GMT -5
Here we go with the bleeding heart club about non violent drug crimes and going to jail. If you do not want to do the time, do not do the crime. The fact that many blacks cannot afford GOOD ATTORNEYS has more to do with them doing the time than anything else. Rule number one in the white community is never settle for a public defendant attorney. Because we all know there are no low income white people. Yes there are. Many of them are the ones serving time on the non violent drug cases. They too, settled for the public defenders.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 20, 2015 18:40:30 GMT -5
Because we all know there are no low income white people. Yes there are. Many of them are the ones serving time on the non violent drug cases. They too, settled for the public defenders. So even white people beak the white community rule.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 18:52:42 GMT -5
Yes there are. Many of them are the ones serving time on the non violent drug cases. They too, settled for the public defenders. So even white people beak the white community rule. beak= break? I said they settled for a public defender. Instead of just trying to beat me up for a simple statement, just tell me, if what I said is incorrect? Yes, I said a white community rule in the previous message, and it was simply to point out, the white offenders hire better, or in some terms more connected, attorneys to prevent doing time. Hell, I know people who have literally second mortgaged the house to hire the right attorney to save a relative involved in the court system.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 19:07:16 GMT -5
... just tell me, if what I said is incorrect? ... Yes, it is incorrect.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 20, 2015 19:14:57 GMT -5
So even white people beak the white community rule. beak= break? I said they settled for a public defender. Instead of just trying to beat me up for a simple statement, just tell me, if what I said is incorrect? Yes, I said a white community rule in the previous message, and it was simply to point out, the white offenders hire better, or in some terms more connected, attorneys to prevent doing time. Hell, I know people who have literally second mortgaged the house to hire the right attorney to save a relative involved in the court system. If you decide to do some reseach into it, you will find Bill's reply #105 is the correct problem in need of a fair to all solution.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 19:30:16 GMT -5
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 19:36:55 GMT -5
beak= break? I said they settled for a public defender. Instead of just trying to beat me up for a simple statement, just tell me, if what I said is incorrect? Yes, I said a white community rule in the previous message, and it was simply to point out, the white offenders hire better, or in some terms more connected, attorneys to prevent doing time. Hell, I know people who have literally second mortgaged the house to hire the right attorney to save a relative involved in the court system. If you decide to do some reseach into it, you will find Bill's reply #105 is the correct problem in need of a fair to all solution. naacp.org Enough said.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 19:43:43 GMT -5
If you decide to do some reseach into it, you will find Bill's reply #105 is the correct problem in need of a fair to all solution. naacp.org Enough said. Find numbers that dispute theirs.
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 19:47:05 GMT -5
If you decide to do some reseach into it, you will find Bill's reply #105 is the correct problem in need of a fair to all solution. naacp.org Enough said. Bill Bill Bill
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 20, 2015 19:49:06 GMT -5
If you decide to do some reseach into it, you will find Bill's reply #105 is the correct problem in need of a fair to all solution. naacp.org Enough said. Wall Street Journal? Racial Gap in Men's Sentencing
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 19:54:07 GMT -5
and from the article: The commission, which is part of the judicial branch, was careful to avoid the implication of racism among federal judges, acknowledging that they "make sentencing decisions based on many legitimate considerations that are not or cannot be measured." Still, the findings drew criticism from advocacy groups and researchers, who said the commission's focus on the very end of the criminal-justice process ignored possible bias at earlier stages, such as when a person is arrested and charged, or enters into a plea deal with prosecutors. "They've only got data on this final slice of the process, but they are still missing crucial parts of the criminal-justice process," said Sonja Starr, a law professor at the University of Michigan, who has analyzed sentencing and arrest data and found no marked increase in racial disparity since 2005.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 20:01:17 GMT -5
The video I saw showed him literally dragged to the van. It did not show what happened before he was dragged in handcuffs. His legs looked "listless" as he was dragged. The video did seem he was crying in pain at the time. He was obviouslt alive when placed in the van.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 20, 2015 20:01:38 GMT -5
and from the article: The commission, which is part of the judicial branch, was careful to avoid the implication of racism among federal judges, acknowledging that they "make sentencing decisions based on many legitimate considerations that are not or cannot be measured." Still, the findings drew criticism from advocacy groups and researchers, who said the commission's focus on the very end of the criminal-justice process ignored possible bias at earlier stages, such as when a person is arrested and charged, or enters into a plea deal with prosecutors. "They've only got data on this final slice of the process, but they are still missing crucial parts of the criminal-justice process," said Sonja Starr, a law professor at the University of Michigan, who has analyzed sentencing and arrest data and found no marked increase in racial disparity since 2005. The study is still on going. Or does it need to be for you as air tight as the Law of Gravity. Can you provide definitive evidence it's all bulshit? I wait your studies.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 20:05:28 GMT -5
Wow! It has gotten worse, but not "marked" worse in the past ten years. Value Buy, glad to hear you aren't beating your wife to much worse that you were ten years ago.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 20:12:08 GMT -5
... found no marked increase in racial disparity since 2005. Wow! It has gotten worse, but not "marked" worse in the past ten years. Value Buy, glad to hear you aren't beating your wife to much worse that you were ten years ago. Please adjust the quote you are attributing to me. It was not mine. It was from an article that Tennesseer posted. And I do not appreciate your lack of a real sense of humor with that remark.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 20, 2015 20:18:46 GMT -5
To Bills and Tennesseer, We are not arguing polar opposite views of the discussion. We are in semi-agreement of the issue. I am differing in that I am saying the court is stacked against minorities (and the poor) through the use of differing abilities of attorneys. Public defenders are notoriously over worked, and many are straight from the University with their degrees. Then there is the issue of highly paid attorneys having a relationship with the prosecutor's office where they can plea bargain down with time served, etc, that does not fly with the newly minted attorneys.
p.s. I have tried three times to post this, and lost it some how. It should have been posted about five messages back, right after I quoted from the WSJ article.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 20, 2015 20:19:44 GMT -5
... Please adjust the quote you are attributing to me. It was not mine. It was from an article that Tennesseer posted. ... Fixed. Sorry about that.
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