thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 27, 2015 20:47:55 GMT -5
So basically, Oped is begging the question that our educational system is fundamentally flawed. It appears to be an unproven assumption.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 20:55:07 GMT -5
Can you quote me please? Thanks.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 27, 2015 20:56:27 GMT -5
Our state police require a degree. I am not even sure if you can use military background instead any more. I can see that- pretty much all state bureaus of investigation require them too.
Local PD though I doubt it. All they require here is either 2 years college, 2 years military, or 5 years 'responsible' work experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 21:01:35 GMT -5
Ok, but State police didn't use to require a degree. I know because my stepfather didn't have a degree and he was an state police officer. I'd guess that if state didn't require a degree back then that local required less too...
Are you all suggesting that more jobs are not changing to need degrees?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 27, 2015 21:29:39 GMT -5
Ok, but State police didn't use to require a degree. I know because my stepfather didn't have a degree and he was an state police officer. I'd guess that if state didn't require a degree back then that local required less too... Are you all suggesting that more jobs are not changing to need degrees? Not at all- but I do think a lot of the degree requirements are bullshit and are merely used to weed out applicants.
Has police work changed that much? And the real killer- have you not met people with college degrees that are dumb as dirt? Not engineering degrees of course, but you know what I mean.
I like the way some companies used to do it- they would give you a test (not a bullshit personality test)- but a written test checking the aptitude for a particular job. If you had that they knew they could train you.
Hell do they do that anymore? Are their apprenticeships or has the unpaid intern replaced them?
Glad I am not just entering the workforce- I feel for them- can you imagine coming out of college owing the cost of a freaking house?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 8:22:46 GMT -5
As far as your question, what are we doing wrong. Sigh. its such a huge and multilayered question. And not the least of the issues is that we are trying to educate for a tomorrow we can't even imagine with a system from a past we've already abandoned... Big changes are coming... just not fast enough.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 28, 2015 9:13:00 GMT -5
I think we have a world in which human beings fit in as they are... we just don't have a school system in which they do... School works fine for about 70% of the kids. It's that 30% we don't know what do with.
For example, I have 2 friends with boys with autism, roughly the same age, same intelligence, and same deficits. Both boys are more of the Asperbergers range that the serverely autistic. Traditional schooling works just fine for one. The other has to be home schooled.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 9:15:48 GMT -5
Well, I think many can do fine in school. My daughter would do fine anywhere. Doing fine isn't my goal, so we do something else. But I do think that how well schools reach diverse populations varies from school to school as well as from kid to kid.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 9:18:36 GMT -5
I wonder how many people really feel they fit in to the corporate world - or if they just conform to pay the bills.
I think our education system has the same bell curve as any other system. It turns out a smaller percentage of great thinkers and a smaller percentage of abject failures than it does a bunch of average people. Creating a system for 70 million people that works perfectly in all cases is just not possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 9:23:16 GMT -5
But you don't have to choose the corporate environment. Our world offers choices.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 9:24:11 GMT -5
But you don't have to choose the corporate environment. Our world offers choices. So does the education system. For example...did you know there are people out there that home school?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 28, 2015 9:25:19 GMT -5
I think we have a world in which human beings fit in as they are... we just don't have a school system in which they do... School works fine for about 70% of the kids. It's that 30% we don't know what do with.
For example, I have 2 friends with boys with autism, roughly the same age, same intelligence, and same deficits. Both boys are more of the Asperbergers range that the serverely autistic. Traditional schooling works just fine for one. The other has to be home schooled.
I know you probably didn't mean this the way I'm reading it but it makes me cringe when we use words like deficits to describe people who don't fit into what society considers "normal". I used to supervise a man (several years my elder) who I have no doubt would be diagnosed with Asperbergers in this "modern" day. I know what Aspergergs syndrome is because a close (much younger) relater was diagnosed with it. Fact is this guy functioned just fine as long as we left him alone with his numbers. Try to put him on a team or force interaction with other areas and that's where the wheels fell off the bus. Fortunately he figured out what worked for him and was comfortable as long as he was allowed to stay in his zone. I'm sure he grew up knowing he was different, but at least he didn't have a label assigned to him. I have to wonder who's really better off, those who don't have a label or those who do.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 9:33:48 GMT -5
So we can't set a norm, and then determine if people are exceeding or are below that norm? Maybe what is wrong with the schools is they spend all their time trying to create terms that won't identify a spade as a spade, but still indicate that possibly it may be spade-like in some way. Not that there is anything wrong with spades.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 28, 2015 9:34:54 GMT -5
School works fine for about 70% of the kids. It's that 30% we don't know what do with.
For example, I have 2 friends with boys with autism, roughly the same age, same intelligence, and same deficits. Both boys are more of the Asperbergers range that the serverely autistic. Traditional schooling works just fine for one. The other has to be home schooled.
I know you probably didn't mean this the way I'm reading it but it makes me cringe when we use words like deficits to describe people who don't fit into what society considers "normal". I used to supervise a man (several years my elder) who I have no doubt would be diagnosed with Asperbergers in this "modern" day. I know what Aspergergs syndrome is because a close (much younger) relater was diagnosed with it. Fact is this guy functioned just fine as long as we left him alone with his numbers. Try to put him on a team or force interaction with other areas and that's where the wheels fell off the bus. Fortunately he figured out what worked for him and was comfortable as long as he was allowed to stay in his zone. I'm sure he grew up knowing he was different, but at least he didn't have a label assigned to him. I have to wonder who's really better off, those who don't have a label or those who do. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to call it. They have problems with social interaction and reading social cues. Both have attention span issues. One has serious sensory issues and cannot deal with crowds/noise or certain fabrics. What is the appropriate way to describe it?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 28, 2015 9:36:07 GMT -5
I have spatial relations deficits. It's not perjorative, it's just true. I picked a career that made use of my strengths and doesn't require me to do things I'm not good at.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 28, 2015 9:37:55 GMT -5
But you don't have to choose the corporate environment. Our world offers choices. So does the education system. For example...did you know there are people out there that home school? There are also some alternative schools out there. Sort of a home schooly type feeling, but alittle more structure.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 28, 2015 9:50:20 GMT -5
Seems like a good time to restate the question asked in the OP
"What are K-12 educators doing wrong when it comes to preparing young men for a college education? "
And to restate this factoid:
For men in 2009, the college enrollment rate was 66 percent.www.wiareport.com/2011/05/a-historical-summary-of-gender-differences-in-college-enrollment-rates/
Why isn't delivering 2/3rds of a diverse male population to one place an adequate percentage?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 10:00:29 GMT -5
So does the education system. For example...did you know there are people out there that home school? There are also some alternative schools out there. Sort of a home schooly type feeling, but alittle more structure. Here there are tons of alternative schools. I could send my kids to at least a dozen different schools that all have different styles and theories - and those are only the ones in the area. If I was willing to drive or board, I can't even imagine how limitless my possibilities would be. Maybe this is the change that oped is talking about. Sort of like New Orleans - you don't have "a" school, you have to research and pick the right school for your kid and their individual needs. Also not a perfect system.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 28, 2015 10:15:44 GMT -5
Played with the above post a little: Here there are tons of alternative corporations. I could work at least a dozen different corporations that all have different styles and cultures - and those are only the ones in the area. If I was willing to drive or get an apartment, I can't even imagine how limitless my possibilities would be. Sort of like New Orleans - you don't have "a" corporation, you have to research and pick the right corporation for you and your individual needs. Also not a perfect system.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 10:17:38 GMT -5
I think it's because education is increasingly related to marriage, career and income. It was fine to not go to college where there were plenty of non-degreed but highly paying jobs available. Not everyone can be a scholar, turn CEO. We can't handle a country full of people who are equally qualified to run the world. We need people at all rungs of the ladder in our economy. Not to mention that at least some percentage of the 1/3rd that doesn't go to college is likely "differently abled" or whatever shit I am suppose to say. Ask Pat if her daughter should be in college and expect to get a highly paid job. Not everyone with a disability is Stephen Hawking's smart. 9% of our population have an IQ less than 80. I really don't think those people should be going to college. That last thing we should do is create a system where the only acceptable outcome is 100% college. Then we will just destroy what little is left of the benefits of college. The top people will create an elite level of education and we will be exactly where we are today, but have a school system that keeps people until they are 22+ years old.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jan 28, 2015 10:22:10 GMT -5
I agree but at the same time that's saying a substantial portion of the population is going to be consigned to the bottom of the economic heap. Not sure what the solution is but I think that's why people focus on college. communism, or at least a more socialist economic model.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 28, 2015 10:22:33 GMT -5
I agree but at the same time that's saying a substantial portion of the population is going to be consigned to the bottom of the economic heap. Not sure what the solution is but I think that's why people focus on college. That's limited thinking. Some of my more highly paid clients are tradesmen.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 28, 2015 10:25:31 GMT -5
I think it's because education is increasingly related to marriage, career and income. It was fine to not go to college where there were plenty of non-degreed but highly paying jobs available. So is there a percentage that would represent success? 75 - 80 - 85 - 90 - 95 - 96 - 97 - 98 - 99 - 99.9 - or is the enrollment of every single human being in college the only acceptable standard for success?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 28, 2015 10:27:41 GMT -5
I agree but at the same time that's saying a substantial portion of the population is going to be consigned to the bottom of the economic heap. Not sure what the solution is but I think that's why people focus on college. 50% of people will have below average incomes.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 10:35:48 GMT -5
Played with the above post a little: Here there are tons of alternative corporations. I could work at least a dozen different corporations that all have different styles and cultures - and those are only the ones in the area. If I was willing to drive or get an apartment, I can't even imagine how limitless my possibilities would be. Sort of like New Orleans - you don't have "a" corporation, you have to research and pick the right corporation for you and your individual needs. Also not a perfect system. And there are plenty of people who never fit into any of those corporations, so they start their own business (akin to homeschooling) or they just don't work (akin to dropping out.) I bet if we find those people that "don't fit into school" we will find a bunch of people who also "don't fit into corporations." So, if we create a whole schooling system that caters to people with no work ethic (not that everyone who doesn't fit in to school and corporate america has no work ethic, but a portion of that population does) how do we create jobs for these people once they do graduate from this magical system?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 28, 2015 10:40:25 GMT -5
Played with the above post a little: Here there are tons of alternative corporations. I could work at least a dozen different corporations that all have different styles and cultures - and those are only the ones in the area. If I was willing to drive or get an apartment, I can't even imagine how limitless my possibilities would be. Sort of like New Orleans - you don't have "a" corporation, you have to research and pick the right corporation for you and your individual needs. Also not a perfect system. Except in many areas (mine included), unless you can afford private tuition, the parents and children have no choice in their "corporation". You attend the corporation assigned to your geographic boundaries.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 28, 2015 10:41:25 GMT -5
Played with the above post a little: Here there are tons of alternative corporations. I could work at least a dozen different corporations that all have different styles and cultures - and those are only the ones in the area. If I was willing to drive or get an apartment, I can't even imagine how limitless my possibilities would be. Sort of like New Orleans - you don't have "a" corporation, you have to research and pick the right corporation for you and your individual needs. Also not a perfect system. And there are plenty of people who never fit into any of those corporations, so they start their own business (akin to homeschooling) or they just don't work (akin to dropping out.) I bet if we find those people that "don't fit into school" we will find a bunch of people who also "don't fit into corporations." So, if we create a whole schooling system that caters to people with no work ethic (not that everyone who doesn't fit in to school and corporate america has no work ethic, but a portion of that population does) how do we create jobs for these people once they do graduate from this magical system? Maybe don't create "schooling system".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 11:16:07 GMT -5
I have a school. Well, there is some choice... The Christian school or the Mennonite school.
Actually there is a school I liked about an hour away, but living there and paying the tuition would have been the same as staying here on one income and homeschooling... So we decided to do that.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 28, 2015 14:05:35 GMT -5
So the person with the lowest IQ in the USA should be able to pass the same college classes just as the person with the highest IQ?
Snookie will be our next President and Miley Cyrus will be a heart surgeon.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 28, 2015 14:15:19 GMT -5
thyme4change - I think they were contemplating economic quintile.
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