billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 18:25:13 GMT -5
It is an excellent question though The problem is that the answer is, "They are failing to pound square pegs into a shape that will fit into a round hole."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 18:26:54 GMT -5
I say this with love. But that is not the correct use of 'begs the question'... I dont care about the grammers... Spellin stuff write ain't an issue... But that one just buuuuugs me lol.... It is kind that you say it with love. I used it once in an incorrect way, and whoever it was that let me know I was using it inaccurately did not do so with love.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 18:28:03 GMT -5
That was probably me too...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 27, 2015 18:29:15 GMT -5
I really don't understand the education process at all. I was a crappie student and now I avoid my children's school because it gives me anxiety. I have no interest in the education process even though I am highly educated and everyone in my family is highly educated and I expect my kids to follow the trend. I don't read any of this stuff - not even short articles. So you have to really dumb it down for me.
I get that we used to sit at desks all facing forward while teachers droned on about classic subjects, and we had PE most days and recess a couple times a day. Now, no PE, fewer recesses and they sit at tables. What else has changed? Is it that the strict structure kept boys focused and now they are distracted?
Traditional schools are a big thing here. I guess they are trying to replace what was lost. But they don't have PE or recess any more than our school does.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 27, 2015 18:30:16 GMT -5
And what is the correct use of "begs the question"?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 18:42:53 GMT -5
Begging the question is when someone bases their conclusions on a premise which is not proven. It means assuming the conclusion. A form of circular reasoning.
I dont ont mean to make this about abortion, but the statement, Abortion should be illegal because it is murder. Begs the question, as it assumes abortion is murder.
The book is garbage because it's obviously worthless... That kind of thing.
I run in to quite a few actual examples on the board... I need to start writing them down.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 27, 2015 18:52:33 GMT -5
Billis, the only caveats is we don't have many apprenticeship programs any more and lots of jobs that used to be no college, from police officers though the trades, now do require higher education. This isn't true. My cousin went through an apprenticeship program as a pipefitter a few years ago and is doing very well. Not only that, most colleges have internship programs where students leave college with experience as well as a degree. In fact, my nephew is in a 5 year program where every year he has a different internship. By the time he graduates, he will have contacts at 5 different companies that he's worked in (for pay) to tap into. You may not hear about them, but they are out there if you look.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 27, 2015 18:54:25 GMT -5
I will just make note to never use it, because I dont understand how I am suppose to use it if someone says abortion is murder. Do I answer "Begs the question why"
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:01:31 GMT -5
That was probably me too... I didn't play well when I was in high school. I remember one junior year history test that was write an essay answer for Question 1 or 2 and an essay answer for Question 3 or 4. I spent the whole class period writing an answer to Question 2. The teacher let me take the test home to finish. I took it home and wrote an even longer answer to Question 2. It took me a few days to finish that answer and never did get around to writing anything about 3 or 4 which were of no interest to me. I turned it in with a shrug of my shoulders. Geometry went from almost perfect every Friday quiz scores but a 9 weeks grade of "B" because I didn't do any of daily assignments to a kind "D" final semester because I stopped caring if all he really wanted was the busywork. Didn't make if back for a senior year. Life got in the way. Seven years later, college went a little better. Military taught me how to play games a little better. Not to mention I could pick my classes/professors. I remember walking out of one class straight to the registrar's office to fill out a drop sheet because daily assignments would be required. I still had my run-ins with professors occasionally. Actually had one tell me to come up and sit right next to her lecture podium. (I told her, "No". )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 19:03:04 GMT -5
To use it you say someone is begging the question. As in.. You sir have committed the logical fallacy of begging the question.
Saying abortion is murder is not begging the question though. It's a claim, unproven.. an assumption.
But to say abortion should be illegal because it is murder, begs the question. Ie. It is basing a claim of illegality on the 'fact' that abortion is murder, a premise which is assumed, not proven.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 27, 2015 19:06:01 GMT -5
However, with regards to the link in the OP, females have been edging past males since the 1970s. Most of the excuses he lists are fairly recent developments in society, so how can he explain these trends on excuses that happened decades afterwards?
Sax proposes that five factors are responsible for the decline in school performance among boys: video games, prescription drugs, endocrine disruptors, devaluation of masculinity in popular culture, and teaching methods. Sax and many others believe that video games disengage boys from real-world pursuits. Mind-numbing keyboards and flashing images have a seductive effect on the brain. Medication for ADHD may be damaging motivational centers in boy's brains, and the harmful effects of estrogens from food and plastic containers are upsetting the balance of boys' endocrine systems. The athletic, scholarly male TV heroes of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s have been replaced with Bart Simpson. These and other shifts in modern culture are responsible for devaluing traditional masculine strengths. Additionally, Sax claims that the ways in which children are being educated today simply turn boys off from schooling.
Widespread computer use started in the 1990s.
ADHD wasn't officially diagnosed until 1987, it was recognized but not well defined and not treated.
BPA has been used in food packaging since the 1960s.....but it didn't cause problems until 2015?
The Simpsons started in 1987.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 19:06:30 GMT -5
Mich, I didn't say they don't exist at all... But you have to admit there are far, far fewer of them. And a whole lot more jobs that require a degree. Not just trades, but police, etc.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:14:54 GMT -5
I really don't understand the education process at all. I was a crappie student and now I avoid my children's school because it gives me anxiety. I have no interest in the education process even though I am highly educated and everyone in my family is highly educated and I expect my kids to follow the trend. I don't read any of this stuff - not even short articles. So you have to really dumb it down for me. I get that we used to sit at desks all facing forward while teachers droned on about classic subjects, and we had PE most days and recess a couple times a day. Now, no PE, fewer recesses and they sit at tables. What else has changed? Is it that the strict structure kept boys focused and now they are distracted? Traditional schools are a big thing here. I guess they are trying to replace what was lost. But they don't have PE or recess any more than our school does. There is actually very little difference in day to day schooling now then when I was in it 40-50 years ago. What has changed is expectations of what are acceptable outcomes. We expect a higher percentage of students to gain mastery of a higher percentage of material covered. As I posted earlier, a higher percentage of males are graduating from high school/going to college and we are asking what are we doing wrong now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 19:20:06 GMT -5
As far as your question, what are we doing wrong. Sigh. its such a huge and multilayered question. And not the least of the issues is that we are trying to educate for a tomorrow we can't even imagine with a system from a past we've already abandoned... Big changes are coming... just not fast enough.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 27, 2015 19:23:09 GMT -5
Mich, I didn't say they don't exist at all... But you have to admit there are far, far fewer of them. And a whole lot more jobs that require a degree. Not just trades, but police, etc. Once upon a time you could apprentice to be a pharmacist, doctor or an engineer. Do you really want that today? Personally, I prefer my doctor to have a bit more education. Being on the police force is not the same thing as being on the police force 30 years ago. I'd actually prefer my police force to be a bit more educated to, particularly with regards to the law. However, it would be nice if they also had an education in dealing with white collar crime, computer scams, etc. Do you really think a cop could handle some complicated cases in money laundering that come about today without additional education in things like accounting and the ilk?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:24:18 GMT -5
As far as your question, what are we doing wrong. ... Please tell me "I" am not the "your" you are assigning as the asker of this question.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:26:16 GMT -5
Mich, I didn't say they don't exist at all... But you have to admit there are far, far fewer of them. And a whole lot more jobs that require a degree. Not just trades, but police, etc. Once upon a time you could apprentice to be a pharmacist, doctor or an engineer. Do you really want that today? Personally, I prefer my doctor to have a bit more education. Being on the police force is not the same thing as being on the police force 30 years ago. I'd actually prefer my police force to be a bit more educated to, particularly with regards to the law. However, it would be nice if they also had an education in dealing with white collar crime, computer scams, etc. Do you really think a cop could handle some complicated cases in money laundering that come about today without additional education in things like accounting and the ilk? I have no more with asking that people be more "educated". I just question whether they need to be more "schooled". We have lost the understanding that the two things are not the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 19:27:24 GMT -5
Mich.. I wasn't faulting the WHY. (although in some cases i might) I was saying even if more boys are going to college than in 1960, it isn't the same thing, because so many more NEED to go to college. So 50% going to college when 30% of jobs require one vs. 66% going to college when 90% of jobs require one... not a good move, even if its a higher percentage. (I made up those percents to illustrate a point, don't ask for a source, there isnt one, its just an example) bilis... i can honestly say i have no idea what you are talking about
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:29:52 GMT -5
As far as your question, what are we doing wrong. Sigh. its such a huge and multilayered question. And not the least of the issues is that we are trying to educate for a tomorrow we can't even imagine with a system from a past we've already abandoned... Big changes are coming... just not fast enough. What we are doing wrong is we are attempting to get human beings to fit into a particular world instead of attempting to create a world to fit human beings as they are.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jan 27, 2015 19:34:13 GMT -5
As far as your question, what are we doing wrong. Sigh. its such a huge and multilayered question. And not the least of the issues is that we are trying to educate for a tomorrow we can't even imagine with a system from a past we've already abandoned... Big changes are coming... just not fast enough. What we are doing wrong is we are attempting to get human beings to fit into a particular world instead of attempting to create a world to fit human beings as they are. human beings as they are are shitty.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 19:34:20 GMT -5
I think we have a world in which human beings fit in as they are... we just don't have a school system in which they do...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:38:45 GMT -5
Mich.. I wasn't faulting the WHY. (although in some cases i might) I was saying even if more boys are going to college than in 1960, it isn't the same thing, because so many more NEED to go to college. So 50% going to college when 30% of jobs require one vs. 66% going to college when 90% of jobs require one... not a good move, even if its a higher percentage. (I made up those percents to illustrate a point, don't ask for a source, there isnt one, its just an example) bilis... i can honestly say i have no idea what you are talking about Anecdotal example: Neighbor was a millwright. He was the guy who made on the machinery work. Lived in a world of grease and grime. Lumber mill shut down. He got into retraining program. Did very well in it. Studied land use planning. Bachelor's Degree. Got a great job with the county. Suit/tie/briefcase. No grease. No grime. Good pay. Good benefits. Solid job security. Miserable. Mill reopened. Back he went. Neighbor was a millwright.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:40:10 GMT -5
I think we have a world in which human beings fit in as they are... we just don't have a school system in which they do... Because the powers that be wish to change them. Who is the force behind Common Core?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2015 19:41:02 GMT -5
What we are doing wrong is we are attempting to get human beings to fit into a particular world instead of attempting to create a world to fit human beings as they are. human beings as they are are shitty. There are certainly many who will agree with you.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 27, 2015 19:41:48 GMT -5
Mich.. I wasn't faulting the WHY. (although in some cases i might) I was saying even if more boys are going to college than in 1960, it isn't the same thing, because so many more NEED to go to college. So 50% going to college when 30% of jobs require one vs. 66% going to college when 90% of jobs require one... not a good move, even if its a higher percentage. (I made up those percents to illustrate a point, don't ask for a source, there isnt one, its just an example) bilis... i can honestly say i have no idea what you are talking about It also has to do with the fact that a HS education isn't the same as it was 30 years ago either. HS has been dumbed down so that more can graduate, so the education requirements are lower. A great example of this is the NY State regents exam. When I was in HS, not everyone passed and it was a fairly difficult exam. You needed to pass certain exams and when you graduated, you got a 'Regents diploma' on your HS diploma, because you went a bit further than the minimum requirements of HS. At the time, high schools were judged by how many Regents diplomas were conferred each year as a percentage of the graduating class. I was at a private HS and better than 90% of the graduating class received diplomas. Norm at a public school was around 40-50% Now, the Regents exam is being used as criteria for whether or not you graduate HS. A friend of mine was a science teacher, and she showed me some of the things that she taught (she retired about 3 years ago from teaching) and the Regents exam of today is NOTHING like that of 1976.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 19:44:53 GMT -5
I actually don't mind common core.
That said 1) I don't think any testing should be done before high school. (possibly middle school...) 2) I don't think everyone needs to pass beyond the basic core skills.... there need to be different paths. 3) the system needs to recognize that not everyone will reach proficiency in the basic core skills in the same way.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 27, 2015 19:49:54 GMT -5
Anecdotal example: Neighbor was a millwright. He was the guy who made on the machinery work. Lived in a world of grease and grime. Lumber mill shut down. He got into retraining program. Did very well in it. Studied land use planning. Bachelor's Degree. Got a great job with the county. Suit/tie/briefcase. No grease. No grime. Good pay. Good benefits. Solid job security. Miserable. Mill reopened. Back he went. Neighbor was a millwright. I totally understand that- I ran away from a much more lucrative career to stay the hell away from being stuck in an office wearing a tie all day. I still have about two hours a day in the office- anymore than that I would have to bolt.
It is a shame society seems to value one type of work over the other and that message has been taught to children.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 19:51:54 GMT -5
I wasn't meaning that though. I mean, cop... used to be non degree, now degree. Most trades use enough technology that they now require higher level training/education, AS degree. Etc. Its not that they have moved on to different jobs... but that the jobs themselves have changed to the point where they need a degree.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jan 27, 2015 20:36:15 GMT -5
Cops don't usually need degrees- may require some college or may not- and the smaller the town, the less it generally requires. FBI, ATF, DEA etc. all require a Bachelors minimum.
I looked into it in college and went so far as started the application process, physical fitness test before I decided it was not for me. They had recruitment posters all over campus. They were hurting for applicants so badly they were giving waivers for some criminal records. That worked out well
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 20:43:14 GMT -5
Our state police require a degree. I am not even sure if you can use military background instead any more.
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