Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 10, 2015 18:09:44 GMT -5
They can go to the High Holydays community service at our synagogue or any other time of year for free.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 19:09:44 GMT -5
I guess the poor are excluded from worshipping if they can't afford pledging, tithing or the cost of tickets to get in during the high holidays. No, you're getting houses of worship confused with Lady Gaga concerts. Every church I've attended had members who were struggling financially. We welcomed them in and did what we could to support them, including a few anonymous gifts from fellow parishioners when things seemed really bad (Christmas with 2 kids after Dad left and stopped paying support, for example). Some of them were among our strongest volunteers (a guy in my current church is strapped from expensive divorce but saves us thousands by mowing our grounds in warm weather), but it's certainly not a condition of membership.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 20:11:45 GMT -5
We have many amazing people who give generously of their time and talent - electrical, plumbing, building repairs, landscaping work, carpet cleaning, pest control. painting, etc. DH and I adopted and maintained a larger flower bed for many years, weeding it monthly, trimming, fertilizing, etc.
One member that I regard highly lost her office job in the recession and immediately set about cleaning houses and styling hair. And the $5 she put in the collection plate each week (yes, I do know because DH and I counted the collection) was as precious as the $1,000 some contributed.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 10, 2015 20:34:43 GMT -5
Just wondering, weltschmerzhow do you think the mortgage, property tax, upkeep, utilities, and food for the clergy is paid for? The state doesn't pay for it here. And with hundreds trying to get into the room that seats only 500 and in the social hall for an alternative service that really seats closer to 100, we do have a space issue. What's sad is that most members only come those 3 days out of the year
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 10, 2015 20:47:14 GMT -5
Just wondering, weltschmerzhow do you think the mortgage, property tax, upkeep, utilities, and food for the clergy is paid for? The state doesn't pay for it here. And with hundreds trying to get into the room that seats only 500 and in the social hall for an alternative service that really seats closer to 100, we do have a space issue. What's sad is that most members only come those 3 days out of the year I'm pretty sure I answered that already. Tithing. If you're a mamber of a church, you tithe.
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cranberry49
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'Sometimes the simple things are the prettiest'
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Post by cranberry49 on Jan 10, 2015 20:57:54 GMT -5
I guess the poor are excluded from worshipping if they can't afford pledging, tithing or the cost of tickets to get in during the high holidays. The meek shall inherit the earth and the poor shall always be with you, but don't let me catch them in church. So true! Hello, Welts (BTW). Long time no speak! No one is under ANY OBLIGATION to tithe! The 10% tithing thing was for peoples under the Mosaic law. We are no longer under those laws. A true religion will NOT make anyone feel obligated to 'give.' They are to give if they CAN/ AND ONLY IF THEY CAN AFFORD TO DO SO! Also, this is to only be used to pay the cost of having a building to meet in and pay utility bills, etc. NOT to pay a preacher, nor to make a 'business' out of 'religion.' Any religion that makes one feel as if they 'need' to give money, is NOT one that I would be part of!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 10, 2015 21:42:23 GMT -5
I guess the poor are excluded from worshipping if they can't afford pledging, tithing or the cost of tickets to get in during the high holidays. The meek shall inherit the earth and the poor shall always be with you, but don't let me catch them in church. So true! Hello, Welts (BTW). Long time no speak! No one is under ANY OBLIGATION to tithe! The 10% tithing thing was for peoples under the Mosaic law. We are no longer under those laws. A true religion will NOT make anyone feel obligated to 'give.' They are to give if they CAN/ AND ONLY IF THEY CAN AFFORD TO DO SO! Also, this is to only be used to pay the cost of having a building to meet in and pay utility bills, etc. NOT to pay a preacher, nor to make a 'business' out of 'religion.' Any religion that makes one feel as if they 'need' to give money, is NOT one that I would be part of! CRANBERRY!!! What a nice surprise! How are ya, hon?
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jan 10, 2015 21:46:20 GMT -5
So true! Hello, Welts (BTW). Long time no speak! No one is under ANY OBLIGATION to tithe! The 10% tithing thing was for peoples under the Mosaic law. We are no longer under those laws. A true religion will NOT make anyone feel obligated to 'give.' They are to give if they CAN/ AND ONLY IF THEY CAN AFFORD TO DO SO! Also, this is to only be used to pay the cost of having a building to meet in and pay utility bills, etc. NOT to pay a preacher, nor to make a 'business' out of 'religion.' Any religion that makes one feel as if they 'need' to give money, is NOT one that I would be part of! CRANBERRY!!! What a nice surprise! How are ya, hon? Doing great! I am working at a hospital as a registrar! I love it! I mostly work in the ER, but I also do outpatient for lab work, xrays, etc. I stay busy, busy, all day long! How have you been? Have you heard from Shirina? I haven't and I miss her!!!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 10, 2015 21:50:47 GMT -5
CRANBERRY!!! What a nice surprise! How are ya, hon? Doing great! I am working at a hospital as a registrar! I love it! I mostly work in the ER, but I also do outpatient for lab work, xrays, etc. I stay busy, busy, all day long! How have you been? Have you heard from Shirina? I haven't and I miss her!!! Shirina is kicking ass on another board. She's doing OK. There was a time she was really down, and I offered her to live with me, but she seems to have bounced back.
How am I? Cold. Really, really cold.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 10, 2015 21:51:37 GMT -5
CRANBERRY!!! What a nice surprise! How are ya, hon? Doing great! I am working at a hospital as a registrar! I love it! I mostly work in the ER, but I also do outpatient for lab work, xrays, etc. I stay busy, busy, all day long! How have you been? Have you heard from Shirina? I haven't and I miss her!!! I'm really glad you like your job. Shirina is kicking ass on another board. She's doing OK. There was a time she was really down, and I offered her to live with me, but she seems to have bounced back.
How am I? Cold. Really, really cold.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jan 10, 2015 21:59:52 GMT -5
Please message me and give me the link to the other message board, if you would , and Shirina doesnt mind! Yeah, I stay busy and mostly come one here to read and then I have to go, or either I just don't converse. Anyway, it is REALLY GOOD to chat with you!!!
Oh, and the cold? Yes, it is very cold here too! Im sure it is a lot colder where you are though!
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 10, 2015 22:07:49 GMT -5
I guess the poor are excluded from worshipping if they can't afford pledging, tithing or the cost of tickets to get in during the high holidays. The meek shall inherit the earth and the poor shall always be with you, but don't let me catch them in church. Glad I misinterpreted this post. Thought you were saying we didn't provide any way for those who couldn't or didn't want to help support the facility to pray / participate
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Jan 11, 2015 13:41:04 GMT -5
I guess the poor are excluded from worshipping if they can't afford pledging, tithing or the cost of tickets to get in during the high holidays. The meek shall inherit the earth and the poor shall always be with you, but don't let me catch them in church. No, the poor aren't excluded from worshipping. I've been in churches that welcomed the homeless and formerly homeless. The church I attend now states specifically that visitors are NOT expected to give. Giving is for members and regular attenders. Since some people give online, there is no problem with not contributing during the service.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Jan 11, 2015 14:01:20 GMT -5
I guess the poor are excluded from worshipping if they can't afford pledging, tithing or the cost of tickets to get in during the high holidays. The meek shall inherit the earth and the poor shall always be with you, but don't let me catch them in church. So true! Hello, Welts (BTW). Long time no speak! No one is under ANY OBLIGATION to tithe! The 10% tithing thing was for peoples under the Mosaic law. We are no longer under those laws. A true religion will NOT make anyone feel obligated to 'give.' They are to give if they CAN/ AND ONLY IF THEY CAN AFFORD TO DO SO! Also, this is to only be used to pay the cost of having a building to meet in and pay utility bills, etc. NOT to pay a preacher, nor to make a 'business' out of 'religion.' Any religion that makes one feel as if they 'need' to give money, is NOT one that I would be part of! How is the preacher / pastor supposed to live on no pay if he spends all his time helping the poor & needy, visiting the sick, hospitalized, shut in, & prisoners, writing sermons, conducting funerals, counseling and managing volunteers?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 14:03:40 GMT -5
Accepting donations is not the same as requiring a fee for attendance/membership...
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jan 11, 2015 14:22:52 GMT -5
So true! Hello, Welts (BTW). Long time no speak! No one is under ANY OBLIGATION to tithe! The 10% tithing thing was for peoples under the Mosaic law. We are no longer under those laws. A true religion will NOT make anyone feel obligated to 'give.' They are to give if they CAN/ AND ONLY IF THEY CAN AFFORD TO DO SO! Also, this is to only be used to pay the cost of having a building to meet in and pay utility bills, etc. NOT to pay a preacher, nor to make a 'business' out of 'religion.' Any religion that makes one feel as if they 'need' to give money, is NOT one that I would be part of! How is the preacher / pastor supposed to live on no pay if he spends all his time helping the poor & needy, visiting the sick, hospitalized, shut in, & prisoners, writing sermons, conducting funerals, counseling and managing volunteers? He's suppose to have a job just like everyone else does. No where does the bible tell others to support his 'preachers.' In fact, everyone that spreads the word of God is a 'preacher.' Should no one work?
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jan 11, 2015 14:27:56 GMT -5
Besides, It would be rare indeed to actually see any of these 'preachers' spend all of their time helping others. Mostly, I see the opposite. I see the 'preachers' helping themselves; and ONLY themselves. Living in expensive homes, driving expensive cars, etc. While living off the backs of people that barely can eat. Sad indeed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 14:31:01 GMT -5
Growing up we were members of a small United Church of Christ parish and now my family attends a Methodist church (again pretty small like around 100 members). Our pastors always held jobs outside of the church. The churches were small and not ornate at all...think Little House on the Prairie size/style.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 14:36:57 GMT -5
I know several small town pastors who are by no means wealthy and driving around in wealthy cars, etc. Most are very nice people and do help others.
And I'm not even religious!
Although i do like to tell the story about how the Orthodox minister who baptized son ran away with the church's money and a woman who was, turned out, neither one of his wives...
guess it's like anything... It's individual, not generalizable...
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Jan 11, 2015 15:53:30 GMT -5
How is the preacher / pastor supposed to live on no pay if he spends all his time helping the poor & needy, visiting the sick, hospitalized, shut in, & prisoners, writing sermons, conducting funerals, counseling and managing volunteers? He's suppose to have a job just like everyone else does. No where does the bible tell others to support his 'preachers.' In fact, everyone that spreads the word of God is a 'preacher.' Should no one work? Of course, people should work. I've seen it both ways. I know a pastor who took a pay cut in a HCOL area in order to continue to serve his small congregation. He and his wife eat homemade oatmeal every day and NEVER go out to eat. He's always helping people. I've also seen the other end of the spectrum. Pastors who were paid well, felt entitled and let it be known that people should give more. One of those pastors was hasty and wanted to build a mega church. When the real estate market collapsed, that church lost both their land and the building they already had. The first type of pastor is who I'm referring to. He's likely to be at the hospital in the middle of the night and that would make it difficult to work a regular job.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jan 11, 2015 17:14:53 GMT -5
He's suppose to have a job just like everyone else does. No where does the bible tell others to support his 'preachers.' In fact, everyone that spreads the word of God is a 'preacher.' Should no one work? Of course, people should work. I've seen it both ways. I know a pastor who took a pay cut in a HCOL area in order to continue to serve his small congregation. He and his wife eat homemade oatmeal every day and NEVER go out to eat. He's always helping people. I've also seen the other end of the spectrum. Pastors who were paid well, felt entitled and let it be known that people should give more. One of those pastors was hasty and wanted to build a mega church. When the real estate market collapsed, that church lost both their land and the building they already had. The first type of pastor is who I'm referring to. He's likely to be at the hospital in the middle of the night and that would make it difficult to work a regular job. On a personal level, I don't know any pastors at large churches. All of the ones I know and have known personally, spend countless hours visiting the sick, working on making sure the church runs smoothly. We currently have an interim pastor (or as she likes to call herself, a transitional pastor). Her first week on the job she put in 72 hours trying to acclimate herself to a church that had no pastor for 13 months (and our church board had been disbanded by the local oversite committee). We had pastor who was serving as pulpit supply for our church when DH had back surgery. He showed up at the hospital at 6 am to pray for my husband and he sat with me and my 26 day old DD while DH was in surgery. My MIL couldn't be bothered to be there that early (I get there was no reason for her to be there, but it still makes me a little crazy, she said she would come to the hospital at noon - she showed up at 3pm). I've known pastors who have full time jobs on top of the work of the church. One in particular, I have no idea when he slept since he worked full time at the steel mill and farmed on top of being a pastor at a small but active church in the small town where I went to church at growing up. We did a community wide vacation bible school so I got to know him pretty well during those weeks every summer for 10+ years that I helped out. My boss grew up poor as a pastor's son. His family had enough to survive, but that was about it. I guess I'm thankful that I have been surrounded by people who despite whatever faults they have, living lavish lifestyles hasn't been one of them. I do feel bad for full time pastors. They truly can't win. My former pastor received an inheritance from her Grandma and bought herself a new car - a Honda Accord. The parishioners who didn't like her used that purchase as proof that we were paying her too much. However many hours they are available, it is never enough - as proof by my interim's first week; people were mad she wasn't in the office from 9-5 everyday. Everyone has demands on their time.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 11, 2015 17:26:47 GMT -5
Besides, It would be rare indeed to actually see any of these 'preachers' spend all of their time helping others. Mostly, I see the opposite. I see the 'preachers' helping themselves; and ONLY themselves. Living in expensive homes, driving expensive cars, etc. While living off the backs of people that barely can eat. Sad indeed. Sounds like you've had some pretty lousy experiences. Our rabbi works 7 days a week and is on call around the clock. So when would she hold this outside job? And how would that affect her accessibility to the congregation that pays her salary? Don't you think that generalizations are hard to defend? And just because you've had a lousy experience with someone who you thought was over compensated for 24/7/365 congregation work, 9-5 corporate compensation, (or are having a rough time financially) does not mean that everybody has.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 18:26:44 GMT -5
I am very sorry for all who have had a poor or negative experience of "organized" religion from any tradition. I am sure that there are religious leaders who take advantage of the people they lead in the Christian, Judaic, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and all other paths of spirituality. We can all cite examples of televangelists, folks in fancy cars and such.
My only personal experience lies with the Episcopal tradition where I have worshipped since the late '80's. Our priests are ordained after extensive study in seminary, which comes after acquiring a bachelor's and/or master's degree (my current priest got her bachelor's in economics!) In my experience, our parish priests work 60+ hours a week: leading weekly services, teaching, pastoral care (home-hospital-assisted living visits), private parishioner counseling, taking communion to those who can't attend. Plus they are active in the day-to-day administration of a parish, meeting with the lay leadership, discussing budgets, prioritizing expenses, developing membership growth programs, meeting with the Diocesan leadership, serving on Diocesan-wide committees, and more. In our tradition, being a parish priest is sort of like being the manager of a branch office, a combination of visionary, firefighter and miracle worker. Whether the gardener is asking for more $$, the toilet is clogged or someone didn't like last week's sermon, it's on the priest's plate at some point or another.
I give because I take - the lights will not be on, the candles won't be lit and a service will not be led without $$. My church pays the exact same rate for water and sewer service as everyone else, the power company charges just as much for electricity and gas service, and the plumber sure doesn't give us a discount!
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 11, 2015 18:43:16 GMT -5
Ditto for my synagogue
I wonder if you factored in time + time & 1/2 + on call pay as defined by most 24 hr employees unions, what the hourly rate would be?
My synagogue comes up with $12 an hour. For an 8 yr degree
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 19:10:10 GMT -5
I'm glad to see that others have come to the defense of clergy and I'll try and keep my post brief. I know there are Rolex-wearin', Beemer-drivin' clergy and the pastor of the mega-church I mentioned earlier (with the secretive finances) was one.
More often the ones I see are near burnout and struggling financially. One found out that she wouldn't get her church pension till she made up the back payments owed by her last parish before she retired (they ran out of money and stopped paying into the plan). The wife of our last priest told someone she bought most of her clothes at second-hand shops. Many churches can't afford a full-time priest and sometimes they're "yoked" to another parish with one priest running back and forth and trying to serve both. Our current pastor cashed in a pension to go to seminary and was ordained at age 61. He figures he'll have to work till age 70.
Most clergy earn every dime they make and more.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 11, 2015 19:14:57 GMT -5
Ditto for my synagogue I wonder if you factored in time + time & 1/2 + on call pay as defined by most 24 hr employees unions, what the hourly rate would be? My synagogue comes up with $12 an hour. For an 8 yr degree Did they not know what they were getting into when they entered the priesthood? (Or Rabbihood?)
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 11, 2015 19:20:36 GMT -5
Of course they did, weltschmerz! Why else would they spend 4 yrs in college then another 4 in the Seminar?? Everyone knows how long they work. My point is that they earn every penny they get contrary to some posters' concerns. Would you work those hours for that pay?
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Jan 11, 2015 19:23:56 GMT -5
Ditto for my synagogue I wonder if you factored in time + time & 1/2 + on call pay as defined by most 24 hr employees unions, what the hourly rate would be? My synagogue comes up with $12 an hour. For an 8 yr degree Did they not know what they were getting into when they entered the priesthood? (Or Rabbihood?) Most clergy consider their work a calling --NOT something they do for money.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jan 11, 2015 20:12:43 GMT -5
Most clergy earn every dime they make and more.
I definitely have to agree with this. My BIL is a retired minister and he was a full time pastor. His wife always worked full time even when the kids were little and he was on-call 24/7.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jan 11, 2015 20:21:18 GMT -5
When the woman gave very little to the temple Jesus commented that she gave the most of all! This woman was poor and she gave from the heart. Not for show. Preachers try to use this scripture to make others feel obligated and give until it leaves them homeless! Shame on them! tNo where will you find a scripture that commands people to give money to the church and feed the preacher and lose your own home! In fact, there are many scriptures that speak contrary to this type of religion. For instance, Jesus overthrew the tables at the synagogue because of them making money off the poor! There are scriptures that say 'you received freely, give freely' meaning the knowledge of the bible and the 'calling.' NO one should have to go to college to learn the bible! That's another money making business!
I repeat: Receiving the word of God and attending church is NOT SUPPOSE to be a money making business! I continue to stand by my comment made earlier.
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