Tithing from Savings??

[muttleynfelix]

Jan 9, 2015 9:51:35 GMT -5 Pants said:

Jan 9, 2015 9:22:33 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

We have 100 families (with a couple or a single person with no kids counting as a family). We built the church in anticipation that membership would grow.  It hasn't, really, and losing our priest in late 2013 didn't help.  We just brought in a new priest a few months ago and he's fantastic.  I hope it helps. 

Your church was built in anticipation that membership would grow? When church attendance is falling across the country and churches are shuttering? That seems... not the wisest idea?

She didn't say when they built.  My Grandparent's church built a new building in 1990(ish).  They were moving from a crime riddled downtown to a cornfield in the next suburb over.  They were expecting their membership to grow, but it never did.  Of course they were building in phases and ended up never actually building their sanctuary because of the lack of increase in congregation.  They just have a multipurpose building that works  for whatever they need to have happen.  Of course I haven't been there since maybe 2000 and they may have made a portion of the multipurpose building more sanctuary like.  I don't know.  My Grandparents moved to where my parents lived 1993 and many of their friends who were retired moved away at that point in time as well.  Looking at street view, the church still has a corn field on one side, but it has a major high school across the road. So it isn't alone in the corn field like it was 25 years ago. 

[muttleynfelix]

Jan 9, 2015 10:52:16 GMT -5 swasat said:

Jan 9, 2015 10:40:44 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

At the rate of $700/m coming from her savings, it should last her about 2 years. I would hope she could find a job in that time (and not have any other large expenses pop up). Could it be the daughter isn't as worried about finding a new job as her mom is? She really is well ahead of the game even having that much available, since most people don't.

Only $16K at age 30 is pretty pathetic Sam.


I can see the mother's POV (maybe also because I have no interest in religion whatsoever). Instead of thinking "I can honor my pledge for 2 years sine I have 16K", why doesn't the DD think "What am I going to do AFTER 2 years if I can't land a job and I have depleted every single penny I own".

That is more than I have available.  I'm fine with retirement accounts, but there are a lot of us that 30+ on YM that don't have $16k available. 

I also can't imagine that the DD thinks her unemployment will last 2 years.  

[swasat]

Jan 9, 2015 11:28:48 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

Jan 9, 2015 10:52:16 GMT -5 swasat said:

Only $16K at age 30 is pretty pathetic Sam.


I can see the mother's POV (maybe also because I have no interest in religion whatsoever). Instead of thinking "I can honor my pledge for 2 years sine I have 16K", why doesn't the DD think "What am I going to do AFTER 2 years if I can't land a job and I have depleted every single penny I own".

That is more than I have available.  I'm fine with retirement accounts, but there are a lot of us that 30+ on YM that don't have $16k available. 

I also can't imagine that the DD thinks her unemployment will last 2 years.  

You are assuming she has retirement or other savings.

As I said before $16K is ALL she has saved. No other assets whatsoever. No retirement, no nothing.

[swamp]

Jan 9, 2015 11:04:15 GMT -5 midjd said:

Count me in as another non-religious person who is starting to remember why I don't go to church. Get up early every Sunday and donate money in exchange for the opportunity to be judged on my perceived salary or the type of vehicle I drive? I already get that for free every day.

I  you.

[emma1420]

Jan 9, 2015 9:22:33 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jan 9, 2015 9:10:36 GMT -5 oped said:

How can a church with 100 members justify an 11,000 a month mortgage? 

We have 100 families (with a couple or a single person with no kids counting as a family). We built the church in anticipation that membership would grow.  It hasn't, really, and losing our priest in late 2013 didn't help.  We just brought in a new priest a few months ago and he's fantastic.  I hope it helps. 

I find it sad that so many churches are making the same mistake individuals and families are making by living above their means.

[Chocolate Lover]

I find lots of stuff in this thread sad. Particularly that someone with no cash coming in thinks it's a fine idea to not take care of herself first and that some justify it by saying some churches are so greedy that she is right to keep up for fear they'll harass her about it. 

[Sam_2.0]

Jan 9, 2015 10:52:16 GMT -5 swasat said:

Jan 9, 2015 10:40:44 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

At the rate of $700/m coming from her savings, it should last her about 2 years. I would hope she could find a job in that time (and not have any other large expenses pop up). Could it be the daughter isn't as worried about finding a new job as her mom is? She really is well ahead of the game even having that much available, since most people don't.

Only $16K at age 30 is pretty pathetic Sam.


I can see the mother's POV (maybe also because I have no interest in religion whatsoever). Instead of thinking "I can honor my pledge for 2 years sine I have 16K", why doesn't the DD think "What am I going to do AFTER 2 years if I can't land a job and I have depleted every single penny I own".

Guess I'll join her in the pathetic camp. We have more than that in retirement, but couldn't access that anyway if we were out of jobs. The YM viewpoint is a bit skewed from reality for most people. Not saying one or the other is right, but just putting it out there that most of the population is apparently not as concerned with personal finance as the ones here.

What industry is she in? Is it likely that she will be without a job for more than 5-6 months? Shoot, I could go back to work at Target or some other place unloading trucks overnight for $15/hr if I needed to once UE ran out. I still kept up all those contacts just in case I ever needed something. Wouldn't be fun, but would keep food on the table.

Was the DD finishing out her yearly pledge? Would the amount change for this year if she's not yet able to find a job? There's still too many variables in this for me to say the DD is being "foolish" for giving that much just by what you heard her mom say at a hair appointment. She very well could be, or maybe not.

[swasat]

Sam_2.0, my intention wasn;t to call you or anyone pathetic.

But you do have retirement and other assets.

The DD in question ONLY HAS $16k SAVED IN A SAVINGS ACCOUNT. No retirement, no home, no nothing. So yeah, I do think its pathetic to have meager savings at age 30 and spend them like they are going to last you forever.

[imawino]

Jan 9, 2015 11:48:22 GMT -5 swasat said:

Sam_2.0, my intention wasn;t to call you or anyone pathetic.

But you do have retirement and other assets.

The DD in question ONLY HAS $16k SAVED IN A SAVINGS ACCOUNT. No retirement, no home, no nothing. So yeah, I do think its pathetic to have meager savings at age 30 and spend them like they are going to last you forever.

I don't think having little savings is necessarily pathetic.  We've all got different circumstances and maybe that savings is a good achievement for her depending on any number of factors.  But I do think that she is making extremely poor financial choices with regard to her assets on hand at present, without knowing how long they need to sustain her.   I can understand why her mother would be extremely concerned in this situation. 

[muttleynfelix]

Jan 9, 2015 11:30:58 GMT -5 swasat said:

Jan 9, 2015 11:28:48 GMT -5 muttleynfelix said:

That is more than I have available.  I'm fine with retirement accounts, but there are a lot of us that 30+ on YM that don't have $16k available. 

I also can't imagine that the DD thinks her unemployment will last 2 years.  

You are assuming she has retirement or other savings.

As I said before $16K is ALL she has saved. No other assets whatsoever. No retirement, no nothing.

I didn't get that from your previous posts.  Sorry.  Yes, at 30 and only having $16k isn't good. Especially if she ends up depleting it.  BUt she is only 30. She probably has 30 to 40 more working years left in her.  

[imawino]

Jan 9, 2015 9:10:36 GMT -5 oped said:

How can a church with 100 members justify an 11,000 a month mortgage? 

No shit. Honestly, if any poster came on here telling stories about the enormous house they can't afford, but built anyway because they assumed that one day they would have significantly higher income they would have been ripped a new one by now. This is no different.  Extremely bad decision making by the church board (or whatever they are called) is no reason church members should be judged or expected to fork over more money.

[swasat]

I honestly could care less on what people want to tithe.

I am not religious, but I can understand and empathize that other people can be and are. And that they tithe because its important enough for them. To each their own.

In the OP story though...its a case of putting God before your own safety. And thats whats boggling my mind. If she depletes all that she has, what happens to her? Assuming she can't find a job (a big likelihood in this economy for everyone other than a few choice professions) , then what? She goes on welfare. So she pays for the welfare of others (through church charity) and welfare of the church, while she is living off of other people's welfare. What a web 

[raeoflyte]

How did she save up that $16k?  $45k isn't a huge salary, so assuming that didn't come from a windfall (and in a savings account so no employer or any real compounding to help out) I'm going to say that is actually doing pretty good and she probably lives a simple life.  As long as she gets a job soon she should be okay.  

I'm embarrassed at how little we donate to charity.  Not that I've done it yet, but I want to get back to monthly contributions to 4 charities at the very, very least this year.  

[movingforward]

Jan 9, 2015 11:48:22 GMT -5 swasat said:

Sam_2.0, my intention wasn;t to call you or anyone pathetic.

But you do have retirement and other assets.

The DD in question ONLY HAS $16k SAVED IN A SAVINGS ACCOUNT. No retirement, no home, no nothing. So yeah, I do think its pathetic to have meager savings at age 30 and spend them like they are going to last you forever.

Well, this was me at 30 yrs old - LOL!  I definitely wasn't throwing money around  but I had just gotten out of grad school and had less than $1,000 to my name. 

[Lizard Queen]

Jan 9, 2015 13:05:52 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Jan 9, 2015 11:48:22 GMT -5 swasat said:

Sam_2.0, my intention wasn;t to call you or anyone pathetic.

But you do have retirement and other assets.

The DD in question ONLY HAS $16k SAVED IN A SAVINGS ACCOUNT. No retirement, no home, no nothing. So yeah, I do think its pathetic to have meager savings at age 30 and spend them like they are going to last you forever.

Well, this was me at 30 yrs old - LOL!  I definitely wasn't throwing money around  but I had just gotten out of grad school and had less than $1,000 to my name. 

But were you tithing $500/month at the time?

[movingforward]

Jan 9, 2015 13:11:10 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Jan 9, 2015 13:05:52 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Well, this was me at 30 yrs old - LOL!  I definitely wasn't throwing money around  but I had just gotten out of grad school and had less than $1,000 to my name. 

But were you tithing $500/month at the time?

No way - I don't do that now

I was mainly just referring to the "only have 16K in savings at the age of 30" comment.  I am in no way offended by the comment.  What I had was pretty pathetic - LOL

ETA:  And I was also told by a co-worker when I was 30 and trying to build up my savings that I was going to go to hell because I was putting money into my savings and not donating it. 

[Firebird]

Okay, some of you are being kinda harsh.  Tithing is VERY important to some people, and people are allowed to have priorities that are different from yours.  It's not a stupid thing to spend money on, even with a low income.  Certainly no more stupid than eating out, having an expensive phone plan, etc.  And of course the church is going to depend on that income to some extent, although I certainly disagree with high expenses that are unsustainable if some of the tithers/pledgers don't come through.  They should have an EXTREMELY conservative budget and if they get every bit of money they're expecting, let that be icing on the cake.  If they're not doing that, yes, it's stupid.  But it's reasonable to depend on expected sources of income to cover basic expenses, and it's reasonable to continue tithing even if you hit hard times. 

That being said, I convinced a friend of mine to come on here a few years ago because MAJOR money problems were (and are) a recurring theme in her life.  I helped her work out a YM-friendly first post with her budget and all, and I was actually really pleased with how everyone responded to her.  This is not a woman who is good with money or makes smart financial choices.  She was on an extremely low, fixed income and still had things like TiVo, smart phone, etc.  Normally the kind we'd rip apart - but everyone was really nice. 

This friend is very religious and she also tithed.  Now, in her particular situation (no income apart from maybe $800/month disability, unable to work and earn more) and well over $1,000 in monthly expenses, I considered the tithe a very big mistake as did everyone else.  We all (gently) encouraged her to talk with her pastor about dropping or adjusting the tithe and making it up in some other way.  I remember everyone being very united on this point.  I ALSO remember us saying to her that if she really felt strongly about keeping the tithe, she HAD to cut some of her other expenses. 

A few months later, she posted in a different, private forum about how "useless" and "wrong" our advice had been, SOLELY because we encouraged her to drop the tithe.  I was pretty pissed off, because we had offered her a LOT more suggestions than just that.  It's not like that was the only thing she could cut.  And as I said, a bunch of us pointed out that she could afford the tithe if it was important to her - but she'd have to cut some of her other discretionary expenses, and even then it would be very tight.  I guess she skipped that part.  But she felt so strongly that we were wrong to advise her against the tithe that she decided all of our advice was worthless.

So people can definitely get tunnel vision about this subject sometimes.  If the OP's friend's church would judge her for giving $70 (10% of her unemployment INCOME) instead of $500, then I wouldn't want to be a part of that church.  It's not like she could reasonably sustain $500/month forever if she were to get a job paying, say, $32k. 

In other words, income adjustment is a VERY reasonable time to make a tithe adjustment. 

[Chocolate Lover]

Sorry your friend reacted that way Firebird, thankfully we only have the OP wondering if she's crazy for thinking the tither is crazy.

[Lizard Queen]

Jan 9, 2015 13:51:37 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Jan 9, 2015 13:11:10 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

But were you tithing $500/month at the time?

No way - I don't do that now

I was mainly just referring to the "only have 16K in savings at the age of 30" comment.  I am in no way offended by the comment.  What I had was pretty pathetic - LOL

ETA:  And I was also told by a co-worker when I was 30 and trying to build up my savings that I was going to go to hell because I was putting money into my savings and not donating it. 

Yeah, me neither.   Errr--I resemble that comment!  

[Firebird]

Jan 9, 2015 14:16:35 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Sorry your friend reacted that way Firebird, thankfully we only have the OP wondering if she's crazy for thinking the tither is crazy.

It sucked.  It was the kind of relationship where we could be honest with each other in the way that people who have never met in person sometimes can be, and I pointed out that she'd received advice on HOW TO KEEP TITHING but that her current income/spending level wasn't sustainable forever without major changes and she'd rejected everything else.  She basically ignored me and kept everything the way it was. 

She's still struggling with money to this day, a lot, and it makes me sad.  But on the bright side, for once I could be proud of YM for giving real and actual "tough love" to a stubborn poster instead of just "tough shit" 

[Bob Ross]

Alls I know is that if you don't all spend an extra 10% on premium pasta, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is gonna be pissed, and leave you untouched by his noodly appendage.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2015 9:31:41 GMT -5 oped said:

I wouldn't be attracted to a church where all of my tithe went to a mortgage.

And how many great cathedrals would we have in Europe if everyone had decided that putting their money towards something as earthly and transitory as a building was a bad idea when there was squalor and poverty in the surrounding streets?  There are also plenty of churches in the US that have no mortgage but are very expensive to maintain because they were built over 100 years ago and need sandblasting, a new slate roof, etc.  Some have gone to ruin; I remember some sad shots inside the Gary, IN cathedral in "Life After People".  I'd hate to see them all go that way. 

I know there are differences of opinion on this, just as there are many varieties of Christians (and other faiths).  DS worships in a dark, practically windowless warehouse of a place with loud music on electric (over-amplified) instruments.  DH and I can't get into the worship but appreciate the intelligent sermons, and certainly can't argue with the 100+ attendance at each of two services.  My church used to be in a storefront and there were people who came into the tiny, cramped storefront place and never visited again despite the wonderful people and the many good things we did in that tiny space.  (DH thinks that maybe we lost something of the culture in going into our beautiful new building.)

I do believe, though, that if you consider yourself part of a congregation, you should support it financially to the extent that you can.

[Deleted]

$11,000 a month. For 100 members. 

Cathedrals weren't built by congregations. 

[midjd]

I do believe, though, that if you consider yourself part of a congregation, you should support it financially to the extent that you can.

Not to the extent that others in the church believe you should?

[weltschmerz]

Jan 9, 2015 13:05:52 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Jan 9, 2015 11:48:22 GMT -5 swasat said:

Sam_2.0, my intention wasn;t to call you or anyone pathetic.

But you do have retirement and other assets.

The DD in question ONLY HAS $16k SAVED IN A SAVINGS ACCOUNT. No retirement, no home, no nothing. So yeah, I do think its pathetic to have meager savings at age 30 and spend them like they are going to last you forever.

Well, this was me at 30 yrs old - LOL!  I definitely wasn't throwing money around  but I had just gotten out of grad school and had less than $1,000 to my name. 

I had a big fat goose egg in savings when I was 35.
Single motherhood will do that to you.

[muttleynfelix]

Jan 9, 2015 15:56:32 GMT -5 oped said:

$11,000 a month. For 100 members. 

Cathedrals weren't built by congregations. 

She did say it was 100 families.  I would guess that puts the membership at more like 200 people. 

[Chocolate Lover]

Considering "family" means children, they don't have jobs to help support the place. So maybe 150ish? Either way, still hard to support that payment with such a small group.

[movingforward]

Jan 9, 2015 16:12:47 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Thinking of the song " there's a time for every purpose under heaven. " There's a time to give and a time to take. This is not the time to give.

Some people truly believe that if they give more more wealth will come into their lives.

Some churches preach this idea, which completely baffles me because I thought giving was supposed to be selfless. 

[muttleynfelix]

Jan 9, 2015 17:15:27 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Considering "family" means children, they don't have jobs to help support the place. So maybe 150ish? Either way, still hard to support that payment with such a small group.

I do think the mortgage is outrageous.  But in many churches they confirm kids in their early teens. So actual membership would include some teenagers. No they wouldn't be supporting the mortgage - which is why I am a proponent of doing phased construction on church building projects. In fact most churches i have been involved with have done separate building drives/pledges so that is supported completely separate than regular operating expenses. 

[imawino]

Jan 9, 2015 15:52:34 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jan 9, 2015 9:31:41 GMT -5 oped said:

I wouldn't be attracted to a church where all of my tithe went to a mortgage.

And how many great cathedrals would we have in Europe if everyone had decided that putting their money towards something as earthly and transitory as a building was a bad idea when there was squalor and poverty in the surrounding streets?  There are also plenty of churches in the US that have no mortgage but are very expensive to maintain because they were built over 100 years ago and need sandblasting, a new slate roof, etc.  Some have gone to ruin; I remember some sad shots inside the Gary, IN cathedral in "Life After People".  I'd hate to see them all go that way. 

I know there are differences of opinion on this, just as there are many varieties of Christians (and other faiths).  DS worships in a dark, practically windowless warehouse of a place with loud music on electric (over-amplified) instruments.  DH and I can't get into the worship but appreciate the intelligent sermons, and certainly can't argue with the 100+ attendance at each of two services.  My church used to be in a storefront and there were people who came into the tiny, cramped storefront place and never visited again despite the wonderful people and the many good things we did in that tiny space.  (DH thinks that maybe we lost something of the culture in going into our beautiful new building.)

I do believe, though, that if you consider yourself part of a congregation, you should support it financially to the extent that you can.

Biltmore and Vizcaya are amazing homes and I'm glad they exist so that I can see them.  It does not mean that it would be a smart financial move for me to try to replicate them on my salary.    This is a finance board.  What I have said all along is that it a stupid financial decision.  I've kept my opinion on churches on tithing in general to myself.  You are clearly letting your opinion on churches and pledging impact your opinion of finances.