Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 17:39:10 GMT -5
And frankly, well, when i walked thru Notre Dame, I could awe in the splendor of the building. But St Peters Basilica was uncomfortable. I seriously couldn't stand the opulence of the environment next to the pictures in my mind of the world's 'squalor and poverty'...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 21:26:27 GMT -5
A lot of the concerns everyone has been talking about on this thread are part of the issues that might lead DH and I to switch churches. Episcopal here, so no forced tithing, just a church that has struggled to reinvent itself over the last 20 years as the neighborhood has changed. I have heard a fair amount of "if you build it, they will come" and now I'm hearing a fair amount of "you need to help us pay off the mortgage". The last financial news I heard about a month ago was that we were in a $140,000+ deficit. BUT the dollars on the financial statement printed in our Sunday bulletin don't match up or make sense. I certainly can read a financial statement and there's something out of synch on ours. Great priest, awesome sermons, but the $$ just don't add. We have our annual parish meeting at the end of January and I will not be nearly as accepting -angry2-of the smoke and mirrors as I have been before.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jan 9, 2015 22:14:41 GMT -5
Our church had their financial campaign during Nov and Dec ....... and one of the line items was a large amount extra to pay for 'progressive speakers' to come.
This is one of the bigger reasons we didn't turn in a pledge card. We are staying until the choir stops singing in May and then we'll find another one. This one is getting too progressive for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 22:41:57 GMT -5
Episcopal here, so no forced tithing, just a church that has struggled to reinvent itself over the last 20 years as the neighborhood has changed. I have heard a fair amount of "if you build it, they will come" and now I'm hearing a fair amount of "you need to help us pay off the mortgage". I almost thought we went to the same church but we don't have that kind of a deficit! I hope you get the answers you want. Most people don't want all the details but our philosophy has always been that our books are open to any member who asks.
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Works4me
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Post by Works4me on Jan 9, 2015 23:33:41 GMT -5
Wondering why the mother is so upset - is she afraid that she will be expected to support her daughter if/when she runs out of money?
ETA - my understanding of tithe is that it is supposed to be off of one's increase, in this case meaning 10% of the $700 unemployment compensation she is receiving plus 10% of any interest earned, etc. I have seen people continue to give excessively in situations like this not only because they want to please God but rather because they like the perks that come with being known as a faithful donor - usually they are people that feel minimal used in most/all other parts of their world. Because the daughter only has $16K saved up. No other assets. And she is dippping into that $16K to fund a $500 tithe and taking out $200 or so too for living expenses. The mother is worried at this rate the meager $16K is not going to last long. Wouldn't you be worried if your 30yo daughter didn't have much money but was depleting her savings? The mother has suggested that tithing stop till she gets a job. Then she should immediately resume and maybe even increase the tithe amount for God's grace. Falls on deaf ears. Apparently, in that church, a pledge is a pledge is a pledge....... Sorry I was unclear - what I was trying to say is that if the mother does not plan to bail her daughter out financially, she needs to say so. I agree that it is very unwise for the daughter to continue donating so much money when $17,000 is all she has in savings, especially when she is unemployed. Any idea what her profession is and what the outlook is for her re-employment in a timely manner? I hate to hear about people doing things like this. The worst part is that there really is nothing her mother or anybody else can do to stop her. Hopefully, if worse comes to worst and she continues to be unemployed for the long term, people from her church will take her in - doubtful though.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jan 10, 2015 0:24:07 GMT -5
My aunt tithed while being too poor to pay her bills. She would ask my dad for money then tithe his money to her church so he stopped giving her money. I am not against tithing on the principal of that if you must pay 10% you can just budget more carefully or earn more. For example if a family adds a child they find a way to increase means to pay for it. Many of you have said you didn't know you could afford daycare but when you needed it the money appeared. We take SS and Medicare out of people's paychecks before we ask if they can afford it so 7.65% off the top. I understand tithing to be 10% of your increase so if you raise a crop you give 10% of the crop or if you raise sheep you give 10% of the increase in the flock. This isn't 10% of income but of the increase in your sheep. So if 25 sheep were born and 5 died you would have 20 increase so owe the church 2 sheep and you are still 18 sheep better off than the year before. If you ate some of the crop and fed some to the farm hands I say the tithe is on the amount you have for sale from the current year less seed you used to start the year so you just take 10% from your storeroom. It made a lot of sense that you have a good year you give more and a bad year less but as far as I can tell you never had to dip into savings or donate borrowed good or money.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 10, 2015 7:43:22 GMT -5
Episcopal here, so no forced tithing, just a church that has struggled to reinvent itself over the last 20 years as the neighborhood has changed. I have heard a fair amount of "if you build it, they will come" and now I'm hearing a fair amount of "you need to help us pay off the mortgage". I almost thought we went to the same church but we don't have that kind of a deficit! I hope you get the answers you want. Most people don't want all the details but our philosophy has always been that our books are open to any member who asks. The books ought to be open. If you want my money, you better be able to show me where it's going.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Jan 10, 2015 8:41:41 GMT -5
I almost thought we went to the same church but we don't have that kind of a deficit! I hope you get the answers you want. Most people don't want all the details but our philosophy has always been that our books are open to any member who asks. The books ought to be open. If you want my money, you better be able to show me where it's going. I was in charge of church finances for four years. I always told members that if anyone wanted to know where the money is going, I'd be happy to show them the books. I even printed out copies to hand out at meetings. No one ever asked or took one. Still seems strange to me, my desire to know is what lead me to volunteer for the position I had. Most people just don't care.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 9:28:09 GMT -5
I don't believe in any of that stuff but there is an easy solution for your friend.
Tithe 10% of the interest the savings account is yielding (technically their income). It stays true to their belief and the $3 isn't gonna move the needle on their budget.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 9:54:32 GMT -5
I was in charge of church finances for four years. I always told members that if anyone wanted to know where the money is going, I'd be happy to show them the books. I even printed out copies to hand out at meetings. No one ever asked or took one. Still seems strange to me, my desire to know is what lead me to volunteer for the position I had. Most people just don't care. Either that or they don't understand finances so they don't ask. I agree, though; we always included a year-end statement at the church Annual Meeting although some categories were consolidated; e.g. "Salaries and Benefits" had the salaries of the priest plus our PT Admin plus her SS plus the priest's pension contribution, but anyone who wanted to see our line-by-line statements in addition to the outside audit report would have been welcome to it. No one asked. I know that's not always the case; a mega-church near us with a multi-million dollar "campus" kept its finances secret except to a very select group. When they ran into financial troubles, it turned out the pastor and members of his family were all living extremely well and money that had been donated for particular missions was diverted elsewhere- a huge violation of trust (also illegal). They imploded and defaulted on their mortgage. Not tithing, we may need the money for ourselves in our old age and for DD to take care of her, responsibility to our family comes first, sorry.
I've always believed that you need to protect your own financial future first. This is the first year I can say we might be tithing (definitions vary but mine would be 10% of my pension plus DH's SS plus what we take out of the savings). I started small when I joined my church in NJ in 1992 but made a point to increase it every year, to actually sign a pledge and to pay that pledge. I'm comfortable with how we balanced our own needs with supporting the church and giving to charity.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Jan 10, 2015 10:25:55 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that the tithe is supposed to be on the increase. That would include income, interest income, monetary gifts, net profit of a business, etc.
There are many people who misunderstand the principle. If a person already tithed on their gross income, they should not be tithing on their tax refund (unless they are getting tax credits). In other words, don't tithe on a refund of your own overpayment.
If you have a business, even a small one mowing lawns, you don't tithe on the money from customers (gross receipts). You tithe on funds you have after you have paid for you equipment, gas, employees, etc. ( profit).
There are many churches who teach that the whole tithe is to go to the church. I disagree. Many churches don't take care of the poor at all and some of those who do, don't do it very well. If one gives to the poor and needy or volunteers to help those in need, then their requirement is satisfied, IMHO.
The woman mentioned in the first post should NOT be draining her savings. She can tithe from her unemployment check and the interest from her savings. That's it! If the church treasurer doesn't understand that situations change and people can't always fulfill their pledge, s/he needs to be replaced.
I think everyone should give something even if just $1 per year in the Salvation Army kettle or volunteer an hour or 2 at the local food bank.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 10:41:18 GMT -5
The woman mentioned in the first post should NOT be draining her savings. She can tithe from her unemployment check and the interest from her savings. That's it! If the church treasurer doesn't understand that situations change and people can't always fulfill their pledge, s/he needs to be replaced. I think everyone should give something even if just $1 per year in the Salvation Army kettle or volunteer an hour or 2 at the local food bank. Agreed on both counts. I had one church member call and apologetically tell me they couldn't continue to pay on their pledge. (This is rare; most people just don't pay and don't say anything.) He's a retired priest and they'd been hit hard by out-of-pocket medical expenses. I felt so bad for them; I know priests get pensions but they certainly don't do it for the money. I thanked him for letting me know. Period. Any church that tries to drain more money out of people who have run into financial difficulties has it wrong.
And I continued to increase my pledge in years when I was supporting a deadbeat husband and later when I was supporting DS on my own because I knew I was doing darn well. If BF (now DH) and I could afford to go to Europe every year (albeit with judicious use of airline miles and hotel points) we could darn well afford to contribute to the support of our churches and to others less fortunate.
Hmmm... should I have tithed on the airline and hotel freebies? I better do some exegesis on the original Hebrew and koine Greek texts.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 10, 2015 12:24:55 GMT -5
Our church had their financial campaign during Nov and Dec ....... and one of the line items was a large amount extra to pay for 'progressive speakers' to come.
This is one of the bigger reasons we didn't turn in a pledge card. We are staying until the choir stops singing in May and then we'll find another one. This one is getting too progressive for me. Our synagogue is trying the progressive thing too and we've gone from 400 families to under 300. But the reform one nearby picked them up as they've become more conservative. Think they'd learn On a different note: when the bookkeeper learned I lost my job last year, she stopped auto drafting my monthly contributions. So I asked her about it and she said she'd start in 3 months. That's how long it takes someone in my field to land a job. (Took me 2 weeks to find a part time one, guess I should tell her?)
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Jan 10, 2015 14:05:28 GMT -5
The woman mentioned in the first post should NOT be draining her savings. She can tithe from her unemployment check and the interest from her savings. That's it! If the church treasurer doesn't understand that situations change and people can't always fulfill their pledge, s/he needs to be replaced. I think everyone should give something even if just $1 per year in the Salvation Army kettle or volunteer an hour or 2 at the local food bank. Agreed on both counts. I had one church member call and apologetically tell me they couldn't continue to pay on their pledge. (This is rare; most people just don't pay and don't say anything.) He's a retired priest and they'd been hit hard by out-of-pocket medical expenses. I felt so bad for them; I know priests get pensions but they certainly don't do it for the money. I thanked him for letting me know. Period. Any church that tries to drain more money out of people who have run into financial difficulties has it wrong.
And I continued to increase my pledge in years when I was supporting a deadbeat husband and later when I was supporting DS on my own because I knew I was doing darn well. If BF (now DH) and I could afford to go to Europe every year (albeit with judicious use of airline miles and hotel points) we could darn well afford to contribute to the support of our churches and to others less fortunate.
Hmmm... should I have tithed on the airline and hotel freebies? I better do some exegesis on the original Hebrew and koine Greek texts.
Well, technically the free trips and freebies were an increase. You could take home the hotel soap & shampoo and donate them to the homeless shelter or food bank. Or, you could donate some of your miles to charity. Or, donate some time and volunteer. I've never thought of tithing credit card rewards before. The important thing is to have a loving, caring heart, not worrying about dividing airline miles or hotel shampoos.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 10, 2015 14:33:23 GMT -5
DH's temple will charge you big bucks if you haven't paid your yearly pledge and you die and want a religious funeral. Which he does. Fine by me. His temple does a lot of community good, from food banks to supporting someone temporarily if they fall on hard times. You don't even have to be jewish. Most of the food bank recipients aren't. But the motto seems to be "Jews take care of their own." He's horrified that Christian churches collect money at service. That just isn't done. I want him to leave a bundle to the food bank itself. Does he approve of EVERYTHING the temple does? Certainly not. My old church in Florida has lost me forever. I gave them another chance and they still proved they're not a good place to be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 15:10:53 GMT -5
DH's temple will charge you big bucks if you haven't paid your yearly pledge and you die and want a religious funeral. Which he does. <snip> He's horrified that Christian churches collect money at service. That just isn't done. I'd read that synagogues charge a membership fee. True? If so, is it based on income? And what if someone shows up often enough to go beyond "visitor" stage but doesn't join? Or just shows up on the high holy days?
I'm beginning to think a straightforward membership model is a better idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 15:15:29 GMT -5
What is a straight up membership model?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 15:45:14 GMT -5
What is a straight up membership model? What I've heard (although I've asked for confirmation since I'm not Jewish) is that if you want to be a member of a synagogue you pay dues. No pledges, no collections.
One of our friends, a lapsed Roman Catholic, married a Jewish woman with a son by a previous marriage. She wasn't all that active but wanted her son to be bar-mitzvah'd. Her husband, the lapsed Catholic, had to pay to join the synagogue so the boy could be bar-mitzvah'd there. This actually makes a lot of sense to me; I know that plenty of picturesque Christian churches have to struggle with requests from couples who aren't regular members, probably never will be, but want to be married in a church. Some just refuse; others charge a lot for non-members to use the facilities.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 10, 2015 15:46:44 GMT -5
If non members show up for the 3 High Holydays then they need to buy a ticket ($100) unless they want to go to the abbreviated free-to-everyone community service (1 hr VS 5 hrs)
Here, no one cares if non members show up for the weekly service
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jan 10, 2015 15:53:41 GMT -5
DH's temple will charge you big bucks if you haven't paid your yearly pledge and you die and want a religious funeral. Which he does. <snip> He's horrified that Christian churches collect money at service. That just isn't done. I'd read that synagogues charge a membership fee. True? If so, is it based on income? And what if someone shows up often enough to go beyond "visitor" stage but doesn't join? Or just shows up on the high holy days?
I'm beginning to think a straightforward membership model is a better idea.
My friends who are Jewish tell me that usually, entrance prices for the high holy days services are close to the expense of a yearly membership. So you don't save much by not having a membership if you want to attend high holy days services.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 16:09:28 GMT -5
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 10, 2015 16:17:54 GMT -5
My dues are $50 a month, and since I'm Head Usher, I know our tickets are $100 per person. There certainly is a wide variance in how this is handled!!
But hey. I'm in California and I always hear how it's different back East
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 10, 2015 16:18:04 GMT -5
Yup, I think when his ex pulled her stunt at Yom Kippur it cost her $500 per ticket. So $1500 bucks. Membership is 2k a year.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jan 10, 2015 16:21:30 GMT -5
So glad I don't live back there
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 10, 2015 16:24:05 GMT -5
Wish I didnt. I hate the weather.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 16:31:56 GMT -5
You HAVE to PAY to go to church....
I honestly don't understand religion.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 10, 2015 16:40:05 GMT -5
Tickets? To get into church, like it's a Lady Gaga concert? I don't get it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 16:55:05 GMT -5
Tickets? To get into church, like it's a Lady Gaga concert? I don't get it. Well, sort of, yes.
Expense of concert hall (church, synagogue)- maintenance, repairs, utilities, mortgage if applicable. Expense of performers (musicians in both cases, clergy in the case of services. They gotta eat and live someplace, too.)
The difference: I doubt that much of what you pay Lady Gaga goes to help the less fortunate, and I suspect that there are no breaks for people who believe in Lady Gaga but can't afford the tickets.
Ya think The Great Spaghetti Monster pays our church electric bill and our priest and his wife live on climate-controlled clouds somewhere?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 10, 2015 17:05:12 GMT -5
Tickets? To get into church, like it's a Lady Gaga concert? I don't get it. Well, sort of, yes.
Expense of concert hall (church, synagogue)- maintenance, repairs, utilities, mortgage if applicable. Expense of performers (musicians in both cases, clergy in the case of services. They gotta eat and live someplace, too.)
The difference: I doubt that much of what you pay Lady Gaga goes to help the less fortunate, and I suspect that there are no breaks for people who believe in Lady Gaga but can't afford the tickets.
Ya think The Great Spaghetti Monster pays our church electric bill and our priest and his wife live on climate-controlled clouds somewhere?
I was under the impression that the tithing was for things like mortgage and utilities.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 10, 2015 17:17:06 GMT -5
I guess the poor are excluded from worshipping if they can't afford pledging, tithing or the cost of tickets to get in during the high holidays. The meek shall inherit the earth and the poor shall always be with you, but don't let me catch them in church.
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